Usually I check videos about the game before I buy it. But I thought, hey its Elder Scrolls, its a sandbox. Silly me.
Was Elder Scrolls Arena or Daggerfall a sandbox? I didnt play those two, and i havent played the first sandbox Elder Scrolls game. Open world and sandbox is not the same thing.
There is no agreement what these terms mean among gamers so this is the neverending "argument".
Though I would agree that the term "sandbox" has as many definitions as "hardcore". But most people don't know what a true sandbox is. They think that an Open Ended RPG (which is what all TES games are labeled as) is a sandbox. And it's not. A true sandbox is a game that doesn't hold your hand, they give no tips on where to go, and they may or may not have quest but then never point you to them. In essence, they give a tutorial on what the controls do and let you pick a direction and go. For an example, I would say SWG (Pre-CU) is more then likely the closest to a true sandbox.
And I disagree with you on certain points. And now we are back to the same argument/disagreement.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The more sandbox style features a title has, the more likely it will be called a sandbox by a person.
Now, the thing is, for some people, it only needs a couple, such as open world (not really a sandbox feature, but some insist on it) no classes, or just letting you pursue your on goals, even if the only progression is quest based and they call it sandbox.
For others, a title must have most, if not all features they consider sandbox defining before they'll agree, and for many, if a game is missing one "key" feature, it's a total theme park regardless what else it has.
So any wonder why we can't agree, there's no breakpoint on the line from an official body that states once a game gets to 50% in sandbox features, its an official sandbox.
Which why I've seen people claim WOW is a sandbox and EVE is not, all depends on what they are judging the title by.
So to stay on topic, ESO permits alternate methods of progression (questing, grinding, PVP), has an open world (you might die horribly to other npcs,) allows crafting progression that creates meaningful items, very flexible spec systsems so some might consider it pretty sandboxy, while others will dismiss it because the questing definitely leads you from area to area, if not place to place, or has levels, or classes.
Its the same complaint against ArcheAge by some, who say it isn't a sandbox because of it's boring quest system. Fact is you can completely ignore the quest system and level your character up in several ways, and the game play is very much oriented about player interaction and competition to control resources and territory, so is misunderstood by most. It is actually more of a sandbox than most other titles out there. and you could literally pull the entire quest system out of the title and still have a very nice virtual world ..... but I digress, still ESO isn't a whole lot different, take away the quests, you still have a world, just not quite as much of one as AA.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Usually I check videos about the game before I buy it. But I thought, hey its Elder Scrolls, its a sandbox. Silly me.
Was Elder Scrolls Arena or Daggerfall a sandbox? I didnt play those two, and i havent played the first sandbox Elder Scrolls game. Open world and sandbox is not the same thing.
They had quests too because they saw the sense even back then of not having just a directionless universe to play in. It's like all well-designed sandboxy games - they all have story lines and quests and leave it up to you to follow those or not.
It won't be any different in the upcoming humongous sandbox known as No Man's Sky. It too will have a directed component pointing you toward the center of the galaxy where the story component will have a conclusion.
I always find it hilarious and ironic that sandbox proponents, who presumably like those games because you can go anywhere and do anything, don't like it when quests are also in there to let others have their "anything." It's a small minded and intolerant point of view in games like even ESO, where as BcBully and others above have said, once you get out of the tutorial area at level 3-4, you never have to do another quest if you don't want.
Of course, you'll miss out on a some skill points if you don't because the game IS quest-centric and rewards that style of game play but for anyone that doesn't want to do it that way, you'll actually level one hell of a lot quicker by going off in your own direction and grinding away.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Usually I check videos about the game before I buy it. But I thought, hey its Elder Scrolls, its a sandbox. Silly me.
Was Elder Scrolls Arena or Daggerfall a sandbox? I didnt play those two, and i havent played the first sandbox Elder Scrolls game. Open world and sandbox is not the same thing.
There is no agreement what these terms mean among gamers so this is the neverending "argument".
Though I would agree that the term "sandbox" has as many definitions as "hardcore". But most people don't know what a true sandbox is. They think that an Open Ended RPG (which is what all TES games are labeled as) is a sandbox. And it's not. A true sandbox is a game that doesn't hold your hand, they give no tips on where to go, and they may or may not have quest but then never point you to them. In essence, they give a tutorial on what the controls do and let you pick a direction and go. For an example, I would say SWG (Pre-CU) is more then likely the closest to a true sandbox.
Sadly, I would say Minecraft and its various biters are as sandboxy as we've seen.
People are fu$%ing idiots. MMO's were created from games where you QUESTED, hence you play and do quests. I cannot stand posts about doing quests. Go play on your stupid ass console and leave the real gaming to the people who know how to play an MMO.
I always find it hilarious and ironic that sandbox proponents, who presumably like those games because you can go anywhere and do anything, don't like it when quests are also in there to let others have their "anything." It's a small minded and intolerant point of view in games like even ESO, where as BcBully and others above have said, once you get out of the tutorial area at level 3-4, you never have to do another quest if you don't want.
Of course, you'll miss out on a some skill points if you don't because the game IS quest-centric and rewards that style of game play but for anyone that doesn't want to do it that way, you'll actually level one hell of a lot quicker by going off in your own direction and grinding away.
You don't even have to do the tutorial areas, since they changed that near the end of beta. (Unless you're talking about the place where you first land?)
And yep, it's incredibly petty. What those people are really saying is that they want games that cater exclusively to them, and to their ability to mindlessly do the same boring crap over and over (like spawn camping some mobs for XP) and that play into their particular strengths so that they can feel like the big man at the end of the day. (And use their advantages to kill and loot complete noobs if possible)
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
You don't even have to do the tutorial areas, since they changed that near the end of beta. (Unless you're talking about the place where you first land?)
Your very first character on a new account has to go through the Coldharbour tutorial bit still. Any subsequent characters on that account can skip it.
I just had to do it yesterday after I got in on the $12 deal to get myself a second bank and 8 more character slots
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by EntinerintOriginally posted by apb2011Originally posted by MukeNext time get some info before you buy?
Usually I check videos about the game before I buy it. But I thought, hey its Elder Scrolls, its a sandbox. Silly me.You thought...an Elder Scrolls game...was a sandbox?What other Elder Scrolls games have you played? Precisely zero of them have been sandboxes. Quests, levels and loot have been the core of TES games since Arena.Also, there's no need to quest in ESO to level, grinding mobs is WAY faster. (Which is the ONLY way to advance in a sandbox).I would say you are incorrect.
Or, more truthfully, you are absolutely correct based upon how you play.
Quests, levels and loot have been the core of TES games since Arena.
Well, that's great except a good friend of mine has played since morrowind and rarely does quests. In his last few "run throughs" of skyrim he wore no armor, had one decent bow (nothign that amazing) and that was that, he didn't craft, or upgrade to different loot. He liked to sell it though.
He pretty much didn't care about levels. Quite frankly, he's sort of a gaming hero to me in that he doesn't play video games with the exception of the elder scrolls games and plays them more like a "sandbox" (which none of us can agree what is a sandbox. I call the Elder Scrolls games sandboxes and we can argue about that in the sandbox/themepark thread) reads the books likes selling items and exploring and essentially finds something in them that he likes and that he can play "his way.
He's even suggested things like "I wish you had to eat food in these games" (I've told him about mods but he doesn't trust them). If he was an actual gamer he would be a hardcore, permadeath, make your own fun, sandbox player (for the most part).
As far as my elder scrolls gameplay, I do some quests but usually don't do many quests. Don't really care about "loot" and even, in some of my games, will give myself the "loot" to make me look like I want right off the bat and be done with "loot" for the rest of the game.
What I'm getting at is that people play these games differently and approach them differently. I've read of people "beating" the game in a few hours and wondering why people are still playing them years later. At the moment I have 1,192 hours and I believe GeezerGamer (on this site) has double that.
to that point: "op you did this to yourself as you actually don't have to do the quests if you don't want to".
Some people just level by exploring and killing mobs or grinding and also adding some pvp. You might have to do the main quest to get to the other faction areas but I'm unsure of that. Did you try avoiding the quests and level and craft and play the game "more like an elder scrolls game"?
I know it's not very close as there aren't the same amount of ruins, caves, mines, etc but you can get somewhat close.
i could play wow while avoiding all quests and just grind mobs and craft, does that make it a sandbox?
i could play wow while avoiding all quests and just grind mobs and craft, does that make it a sandbox?
no.
It doesn't.
Because now you are saying that "grinding mobs and crafting" is the crux of being a sandbox. Or at least, you focusing on those aspects means that you missed the point being made.
is the game play, sans quests, in a single elder scrolls game the exact same thing as not doing quests in wow? Of course not.
I would also say that this has more to do with "game world as sandbox" as opposed to a literal "sandbox".
In any case as I've said we've done this discussion to death and there is even a whole thread on it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You don't even have to do the tutorial areas, since they changed that near the end of beta. (Unless you're talking about the place where you first land?)
Your very first character on a new account has to go through the Coldharbour tutorial bit still. Any subsequent characters on that account can skip it.
I just had to do it yesterday after I got in on the $12 deal to get myself a second bank and 8 more character slots
Oh wow, for some reason I completely forgot about Coldharbour.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by baphamet
i could play wow while avoiding all quests and just grind mobs and craft, does that make it a sandbox? no.
It doesn't.
Because now you are saying that "grinding mobs and crafting" is the crux of being a sandbox. Or at least, you focusing on those aspects means that you missed the point being made.
is the game play, sans quests, in a single elder scrolls game the exact same thing as not doing quests in wow? Of course not.
I would also say that this has more to do with "game world as sandbox" as opposed to a literal "sandbox".
In any case as I've said we've done this discussion to death and there is even a whole thread on it.
avoiding quests in wow is not the exact same as avoiding quests in an ES game but you are still avoiding content that the game is driven by, which was my point.
just because you choose to not do quests does not mean the game isn't heavily based on questing. by the way, when i first played wow during vanilla, i did avoid a lot of quests and just mob grinded a lot.
yes there are alternative ways to play games, that doesn't mean anything really IMO.
Usually I check videos about the game before I buy it. But I thought, hey its Elder Scrolls, its a sandbox. Silly me.
Was Elder Scrolls Arena or Daggerfall a sandbox? I didnt play those two, and i havent played the first sandbox Elder Scrolls game. Open world and sandbox is not the same thing.
There is no agreement what these terms mean among gamers so this is the neverending "argument".
Though I would agree that the term "sandbox" has as many definitions as "hardcore". But most people don't know what a true sandbox is. They think that an Open Ended RPG (which is what all TES games are labeled as) is a sandbox. And it's not. A true sandbox is a game that doesn't hold your hand, they give no tips on where to go, and they may or may not have quest but then never point you to them. In essence, they give a tutorial on what the controls do and let you pick a direction and go. For an example, I would say SWG (Pre-CU) is more then likely the closest to a true sandbox.
I agree that TES games are not sandbox.
TES games have way more in common with themepark games than sandbox ones. And they just feel like themepark games, just non linear.
So I bought ESO at a discount price for 12$. Man am I glad I didn't pay full price.
Fuckin quest after quest after quest. Lord how I hate quests. Run here, get that, do this, do that etc. Why can't I just play? Why do I have to do quests?
I'm not sure if I can level efficiently not doing quests.
I tried Shroud of the Avatar, damn I can't wait till it gets out of alpha. There is quests in it but you don't have to do them, and there are very few of them. You can pick any road you want to follow in that game and progress without doing linear quests.
While over 80% of MMOs have quests, I hope that in the future there will be games where you don't have to quest at all to progress.
Goddam questing bullshit. Now I really learned my lesson with themepark MMOs and it cost me 12$. I was hoping ESO would have stayed in its sandbox roots. I hope I don't make the same mistake of buying another themepark MMO.
You could have spent another $30 on a program that would kill mobs for you. I play on my XBOX 1 while it gets me Champion Points. You should have stayed with this game it's fun.
avoiding quests in wow is not the exact same as avoiding quests in an ES game but you are still avoiding content that the game is driven by, which was my point.
just because you choose to not do quests does not mean the game isn't heavily based on questing. by the way, when i first played wow during vanilla, i did avoid a lot of quests and just mob grinded a lot.
yes there are alternative ways to play games, that doesn't mean anything really IMO.
That's a good point but I think that in a game like WoW it becomes "avoiding quests" as opposed to an Elder Scrolls game where exploration is what drives the game and you can choose whether or not to do quests. It seems like it's 6 of one/half dozen of the other but in a game like WoW the quests drive your experience.
In a game like an Elder Scrolls game, it's exploration that drives your experience with the one caveat that there is a main quest that may or may not become the "spine" of your elder scrolls experience.
If you don't do quests in an elder scrolls game it really doesn't matter as you can just take advantage of the world, its objects and the story telling that happens as you explore in your own way.
In WoW you go out to a field and grind or find a dungeon to run over and over again. At least as far as interactive elements go.
Obviously you can role play the heck out of your experience. but how much does the world support that?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
And I disagree with you on certain points. And now we are back to the same argument/disagreement.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Pretty much spot on. These days the Sandbox vs Themepark graph I used to use no longer applies.
What used to look like this:
<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Sandbox style Theme Park Style
List of Sandbox style features List of Theme Park features
The more a title had of one, the more people called it a sandbox.
But I really think the line is more like this, because we all have a different set of criteria that makes a title a sandbox
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
It's a themepark | It's a Sandbox
List of Sandbox style features
The more sandbox style features a title has, the more likely it will be called a sandbox by a person.
Now, the thing is, for some people, it only needs a couple, such as open world (not really a sandbox feature, but some insist on it) no classes, or just letting you pursue your on goals, even if the only progression is quest based and they call it sandbox.
For others, a title must have most, if not all features they consider sandbox defining before they'll agree, and for many, if a game is missing one "key" feature, it's a total theme park regardless what else it has.
So any wonder why we can't agree, there's no breakpoint on the line from an official body that states once a game gets to 50% in sandbox features, its an official sandbox.
Which why I've seen people claim WOW is a sandbox and EVE is not, all depends on what they are judging the title by.
So to stay on topic, ESO permits alternate methods of progression (questing, grinding, PVP), has an open world (you might die horribly to other npcs,) allows crafting progression that creates meaningful items, very flexible spec systsems so some might consider it pretty sandboxy, while others will dismiss it because the questing definitely leads you from area to area, if not place to place, or has levels, or classes.
Its the same complaint against ArcheAge by some, who say it isn't a sandbox because of it's boring quest system. Fact is you can completely ignore the quest system and level your character up in several ways, and the game play is very much oriented about player interaction and competition to control resources and territory, so is misunderstood by most. It is actually more of a sandbox than most other titles out there. and you could literally pull the entire quest system out of the title and still have a very nice virtual world ..... but I digress, still ESO isn't a whole lot different, take away the quests, you still have a world, just not quite as much of one as AA.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They had quests too because they saw the sense even back then of not having just a directionless universe to play in. It's like all well-designed sandboxy games - they all have story lines and quests and leave it up to you to follow those or not.
It won't be any different in the upcoming humongous sandbox known as No Man's Sky. It too will have a directed component pointing you toward the center of the galaxy where the story component will have a conclusion.
I always find it hilarious and ironic that sandbox proponents, who presumably like those games because you can go anywhere and do anything, don't like it when quests are also in there to let others have their "anything." It's a small minded and intolerant point of view in games like even ESO, where as BcBully and others above have said, once you get out of the tutorial area at level 3-4, you never have to do another quest if you don't want.
Of course, you'll miss out on a some skill points if you don't because the game IS quest-centric and rewards that style of game play but for anyone that doesn't want to do it that way, you'll actually level one hell of a lot quicker by going off in your own direction and grinding away.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Sadly, I would say Minecraft and its various biters are as sandboxy as we've seen.
I am so good, I backstabbed your face!
You don't even have to do the tutorial areas, since they changed that near the end of beta. (Unless you're talking about the place where you first land?)
And yep, it's incredibly petty. What those people are really saying is that they want games that cater exclusively to them, and to their ability to mindlessly do the same boring crap over and over (like spawn camping some mobs for XP) and that play into their particular strengths so that they can feel like the big man at the end of the day. (And use their advantages to kill and loot complete noobs if possible)
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Your very first character on a new account has to go through the Coldharbour tutorial bit still. Any subsequent characters on that account can skip it.
I just had to do it yesterday after I got in on the $12 deal to get myself a second bank and 8 more character slots
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
the ES series has always been quest driven and not a sandbox game, not sure which elder scrolls games you have been playing?
You thought...an Elder Scrolls game...was a sandbox? What other Elder Scrolls games have you played? Precisely zero of them have been sandboxes. Quests, levels and loot have been the core of TES games since Arena. Also, there's no need to quest in ESO to level, grinding mobs is WAY faster. (Which is the ONLY way to advance in a sandbox).
I would say you are incorrect.
Or, more truthfully, you are absolutely correct based upon how you play.
Quests, levels and loot have been the core of TES games since Arena.
Well, that's great except a good friend of mine has played since morrowind and rarely does quests. In his last few "run throughs" of skyrim he wore no armor, had one decent bow (nothign that amazing) and that was that, he didn't craft, or upgrade to different loot. He liked to sell it though.
He pretty much didn't care about levels. Quite frankly, he's sort of a gaming hero to me in that he doesn't play video games with the exception of the elder scrolls games and plays them more like a "sandbox" (which none of us can agree what is a sandbox. I call the Elder Scrolls games sandboxes and we can argue about that in the sandbox/themepark thread) reads the books likes selling items and exploring and essentially finds something in them that he likes and that he can play "his way.
He's even suggested things like "I wish you had to eat food in these games" (I've told him about mods but he doesn't trust them). If he was an actual gamer he would be a hardcore, permadeath, make your own fun, sandbox player (for the most part).
As far as my elder scrolls gameplay, I do some quests but usually don't do many quests. Don't really care about "loot" and even, in some of my games, will give myself the "loot" to make me look like I want right off the bat and be done with "loot" for the rest of the game.
What I'm getting at is that people play these games differently and approach them differently. I've read of people "beating" the game in a few hours and wondering why people are still playing them years later. At the moment I have 1,192 hours and I believe GeezerGamer (on this site) has double that.
to that point: "op you did this to yourself as you actually don't have to do the quests if you don't want to".
Some people just level by exploring and killing mobs or grinding and also adding some pvp. You might have to do the main quest to get to the other faction areas but I'm unsure of that. Did you try avoiding the quests and level and craft and play the game "more like an elder scrolls game"?
I know it's not very close as there aren't the same amount of ruins, caves, mines, etc but you can get somewhat close.
i could play wow while avoiding all quests and just grind mobs and craft, does that make it a sandbox?
no.
It doesn't.
Because now you are saying that "grinding mobs and crafting" is the crux of being a sandbox. Or at least, you focusing on those aspects means that you missed the point being made.
is the game play, sans quests, in a single elder scrolls game the exact same thing as not doing quests in wow? Of course not.
I would also say that this has more to do with "game world as sandbox" as opposed to a literal "sandbox".
In any case as I've said we've done this discussion to death and there is even a whole thread on it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Oh wow, for some reason I completely forgot about Coldharbour.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
no.
It doesn't.
Because now you are saying that "grinding mobs and crafting" is the crux of being a sandbox. Or at least, you focusing on those aspects means that you missed the point being made.
is the game play, sans quests, in a single elder scrolls game the exact same thing as not doing quests in wow? Of course not.
I would also say that this has more to do with "game world as sandbox" as opposed to a literal "sandbox".
In any case as I've said we've done this discussion to death and there is even a whole thread on it.
avoiding quests in wow is not the exact same as avoiding quests in an ES game but you are still avoiding content that the game is driven by, which was my point.
just because you choose to not do quests does not mean the game isn't heavily based on questing. by the way, when i first played wow during vanilla, i did avoid a lot of quests and just mob grinded a lot.
yes there are alternative ways to play games, that doesn't mean anything really IMO.
I agree that TES games are not sandbox.
TES games have way more in common with themepark games than sandbox ones. And they just feel like themepark games, just non linear.
You could have spent another $30 on a program that would kill mobs for you. I play on my XBOX 1 while it gets me Champion Points. You should have stayed with this game it's fun.
That's a good point but I think that in a game like WoW it becomes "avoiding quests" as opposed to an Elder Scrolls game where exploration is what drives the game and you can choose whether or not to do quests. It seems like it's 6 of one/half dozen of the other but in a game like WoW the quests drive your experience.
In a game like an Elder Scrolls game, it's exploration that drives your experience with the one caveat that there is a main quest that may or may not become the "spine" of your elder scrolls experience.
If you don't do quests in an elder scrolls game it really doesn't matter as you can just take advantage of the world, its objects and the story telling that happens as you explore in your own way.
In WoW you go out to a field and grind or find a dungeon to run over and over again. At least as far as interactive elements go.
Obviously you can role play the heck out of your experience. but how much does the world support that?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo