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Does Star Citizen have a lack of capable software engineers?

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  • HorrorScopeHorrorScope Member UncommonPosts: 599
    Originally posted by TheOctagon
     

    All that talents going to cost you alot of money. Wonder how much of that 90 million they've burned through already.

    If your average programmer is making 20k a year, and there are 300+ employees working for Ciggy right now, thats $6,000,000+  on salaries each year. And that talent you have listed there are making ALOT more than 20k a year. The Family of Executive Producers is making a shit-ton more than that, plus we all know they're all getting their executive bonuses to...:P

    Yep. Move along. No problems here.

     

    Man if you are a programmer and only making 20K a year you are being exploited to the nTH degree. In California alone they have a 83K programmers minimum wage. And to the OP's list, those people are far from working for 20k. Tip: If you are in or planning to be into game development, plan on it for a brief period of your career, take your talents to a better job in terms of pay and hours. You deserve it. And before anyone says anything, yes some can be treated very well, but you still have the burnout hours to consider.

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,977
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
     

    Derek Smart clearly Derek Smart you Derek Smart have Derek Smart no Derek Smart agenda Derek Smart with Derek Smart your Derek Smart postings Derek Smart and Derek Smart near Derek Smart endless Derek Smart thread Derek Smart creations Derek Smart.

    You both seem to be the opposite sides of the same coin. You're after Roberts, he's after Smart...

    Clearly, because I support Derek Smart and the others before him who have called for financial accountability to including Smart's 1 million pledge for it.

  • MeleconMelecon Member UncommonPosts: 74
    Originally posted by Warley
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by Burntvet

    Biggest thing you need for any large project like this is: clear vision and goal/benchmark setting and solid project management.

    What you don't need is: feature creep and ever expanding project requirements (they do have to deliver all the stuff they keep selling) and bunch of unconnected vendors doing their own thing, and letting things slide.

    Having some people with prior experience doesn't really help with any of that... want to see some disfunctional stuff? Trying putting 4 or 5 "genius artistic types" in the same room and get them to do anything together. Like herding drunken cats.

    If SC "doesn't deliver" after all the money they have taken in, it must be considered a failure of project management before anything else.

    Burntvet is correct, without effective Project Management SC is 300 headless chickens running around, lack of results and feature creep shows.

    Holy hell, you're starting to remind me of the people that deny there's any evidence for Evolution, because they won't get their fingers out of their ears.

    Whoa Whoa Whoa you all have it wrong, the issue with SC is the fact that the Earth is flat and the sun revolves around it.I don't care what you all say how can you make a space game when Space isn't even real. You all should go hang your heads in shame....

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,977
    Originally posted by Melecon
    Originally posted by Warley
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by Burntvet

    Biggest thing you need for any large project like this is: clear vision and goal/benchmark setting and solid project management.

    What you don't need is: feature creep and ever expanding project requirements (they do have to deliver all the stuff they keep selling) and bunch of unconnected vendors doing their own thing, and letting things slide.

    Having some people with prior experience doesn't really help with any of that... want to see some disfunctional stuff? Trying putting 4 or 5 "genius artistic types" in the same room and get them to do anything together. Like herding drunken cats.

    If SC "doesn't deliver" after all the money they have taken in, it must be considered a failure of project management before anything else.

    Burntvet is correct, without effective Project Management SC is 300 headless chickens running around, lack of results and feature creep shows.

    Holy hell, you're starting to remind me of the people that deny there's any evidence for Evolution, because they won't get their fingers out of their ears.

    Whoa Whoa Whoa you all have it wrong, the issue with SC is the fact that the Earth is flat and the sun revolves around it.I don't care what you all say how can you make a space game when Space isn't even real. You all should go hang your heads in shame....

    The earth is a triangle and there is no sun.....................image

  • 13lake13lake Member UncommonPosts: 708
    Originally posted by booniedog96

    So like, isn't the CryEngine built with an emphasis on FPS?  You're saying that in the span of 2 1/2 - 3 years they couldn't get an FPS module working?  Not only do they not have any type of working FPS module but one that has been delayed indefinitely. 

     

    Promises made can carry weight, but there has to be a point where we have to say, "OK breh, I'd you to refrain from blowing smoke up our ass and SHOW ME".  For many people, that SHOW ME point is over due.  If you take DSmart out of the picture, lets say the drama with DSmart never happened.  You'll still have a good number of backers that are uncertain about the ability of CIG/ Chris Roberts to deliver.  All they want is closure.

     

    Some of these backers are old enough to have witnessed the Enron scandal, and it would help if they got some justification.

     

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/kensilverstein/2013/05/14/enron-ethics-and-todays-corporate-values/

     

    Here's a little snippet from the article:

    "The company’s failure in 2001 represents the biggest business bankruptcy ever while also spotlighting corporate America’s moral failings. It’s a stark reminder of the implications of being seduced by charismatic leaders, or more specifically, those who sought excess at the expense of their communities and their employees. In the end, those misplaced morals killed the company while it injured all of those who had gone along for the ride."

    So the current modus operandi is guilty until proven otherwise, eh america ?

     

    Your forefathers would be ashamed of you.

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,907
    Originally posted by 13lake
    Originally posted by booniedog96

    So like, isn't the CryEngine built with an emphasis on FPS?  You're saying that in the span of 2 1/2 - 3 years they couldn't get an FPS module working?  Not only do they not have any type of working FPS module but one that has been delayed indefinitely. 

     

    Promises made can carry weight, but there has to be a point where we have to say, "OK breh, I'd you to refrain from blowing smoke up our ass and SHOW ME".  For many people, that SHOW ME point is over due.  If you take DSmart out of the picture, lets say the drama with DSmart never happened.  You'll still have a good number of backers that are uncertain about the ability of CIG/ Chris Roberts to deliver.  All they want is closure.

     

    Some of these backers are old enough to have witnessed the Enron scandal, and it would help if they got some justification.

     

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/kensilverstein/2013/05/14/enron-ethics-and-todays-corporate-values/

     

    Here's a little snippet from the article:

    "The company’s failure in 2001 represents the biggest business bankruptcy ever while also spotlighting corporate America’s moral failings. It’s a stark reminder of the implications of being seduced by charismatic leaders, or more specifically, those who sought excess at the expense of their communities and their employees. In the end, those misplaced morals killed the company while it injured all of those who had gone along for the ride."

    So the current modus operandi is guilty until proven otherwise, eh america ?

     

    Your forefathers would be ashamed of you.

    No, that's... not how it works.  There's a beautiful thing that came out of the Enron scandal: the Sarbanes-Oxley Act.  Its standards have influenced corporations around the world to become more transparent.

    From my perspective CIG is effectively skirting around this by being a private company, when they really should be more transparent given how they are raising their funds.

     

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,702

    Some numbers for calculation:

    https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14839-Letter-From-The-Chairman

    "Our internal headcount has gone from five at the end of 2012 to 59 at the end of 2013 to 183 at the end of 2014 and to 255 now."

    116 of them in UK, 22 in  Germany, 117 in the US.

    Average salaries:

    http://www.worldsalaries.org/computerprogrammer.shtml

    Add to that the contractors ( 2014 it was around 80ish if I remember correctly, I suspect its more like 100 now). But for them you cannot use salary figures, the contractors are paid per task. They have anything from 1-person item skin freelancer artists to half of a studio (Ilfonic).

     

    Have fun

     

     

    PS: Salaries for programmers (average)

    Country  Net Monthly Income  constant 2005 US$ [a] [d] Notes, Source                                                                               Gross Monthly Job Income Compulsory Deductions Weekly Hours
    U.S. average salary PPP $ 4,141 $ 4,141 Full-time and part-time employees, 2005. U.S. Department of Labor, [t]. 5,378 dollars 23% 39.4
    UK median salary PPP $ 2,996 $ 3,476 Employees, programmers in all industries, 2005. UK Employment Department, [9], [t]. 2,688 pounds 29% 37.0
    Germany average salary PPP $ 2,320 $ 2,505 Insurance industry, Minimum per month, 2005, normal hours of work. Federal Statistical Office of Germany, [9], [t]. 2,915 euros 31% 39.0

     

  • WarleyWarley Member UncommonPosts: 507
    I wanted to bump. Read the original post and my second post. So you can get an idea of how much Derek Smart has been lying about CIG from the start.
  • adamlotus75adamlotus75 Member UncommonPosts: 387
    No it has terrible management.  No one is doubting the talent that they hired, they've just got the wrong leaders.
  • JacxolopeJacxolope Member UncommonPosts: 1,140
    No it has terrible management.  No one is doubting the talent that they hired, they've just got the wrong leaders.
    This- And company money being used like certain peoples personal piggy bank(s).

    The staff themselves includes some highly competent and top tier individuals along with the standard mediocrity you find generally everywhere. 
  • IsilithTehrothIsilithTehroth Member UncommonPosts: 454
    Erillion said:
    --> JUST.USE.GOOGLE.   Thousands of Star Citizen gameplay videos, from gamers, for gamers. If it looks unpolished to you .. its pre-feature-complete-alpha ! If it looks incomplete to you ... you are looking at one out of several modules. What do you think other AAA games look like at 50 % of their development time ?
    What I find funny is the white knight shills can't een keep their facts right when defending. You claim that if it looks bad its because its "Alpha" but CR's whole premise on releasing it as modules was to perfect each aspect 1 piece at a time. So essentially what we can surmise is if a module that is "complete" is terrible than the rest will be equally as bad. That is if we are going by what CR has said.

    Shill and people who invested 1,000s of dollars in this game are the ones that are so vehemetly defend it no matter what happens. Its like the people that deny their spouse is a murderer despite seeing them come home with blood splattered on their clothes and dead bodies stuffed in the attic.

    MurderHerd

  • WarleyWarley Member UncommonPosts: 507
    No it has terrible management.  No one is doubting the talent that they hired, they've just got the wrong leaders.
    Then why isn't anyone calling out Derek Smart on his lie in that MMORPG.com? He's the originator of all this nonsense. Yet, when facts are shown you guys willfully ignore those facts.
  • WarleyWarley Member UncommonPosts: 507
    The point is that Derek Smart has lied from the start. This is proof.

    This whole campaign is predicated on a liar. LOL
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Regardless who they have right now, the negative publicity isn't going to be gaining them any A+ talent. Honestly, the whole thing is an HR nightmare. They should really attack the allegations head-on or they could be doomed to hiring mediocre talent for the rest of their project. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
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    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 3,880
    Warley said:
    The point is that Derek Smart has lied from the start. This is proof.

    This whole campaign is predicated on a liar. LOL
    What proof exactly? Unless you are talking about the proof you are giving that Derek is right?

    Everything you wrote in your original post where you put in links to show how talented some of these people are and then linked the mmorpg interview and told us to start at 15 minute mark is echoing what Derek Smart is saying. He freely acknowledges that the team is world class (and he says it multiple times) but he mentions that it's either bad management which hinders them or they don't have the experience working on this massive of a scope.

  • bruevitzbruevitz Member UncommonPosts: 57
    edited October 2015
    I failed to see how the negative publicity would prevent them from getting the job done. Last time I look, people are getting paid with money, not good publicity. And money they have and received, deliverables are not. The initial kickstarter project is much less from what they have received, yet where are they now? Are core features of the game that he promised in the initial kickstarter have been showcased and delivered?

    Who has the idea for SC, is it not a person named CR? Is he not in the project, and running the show? Does the success of the game dependent on some 'key' person that they need to hire and requires a good publicity?

    Lets give an example:
    • Lets pretend I am an indie developer with a kickstarter campaign for game ABC, with 4 features. I requested a fund of 500K and a delivery of 2 years. I got 2 mills of funding. Logically if I am trustworthy and capable, after 2 years I would be able to deliver the game with 4 features.
    • Now lets say, I request crowdfunding again during the time and managed to collect another 20 mills within the year, promising a lofty 10 features (all are stretch goals).
    • Then, after 1 year, if I am trustworthy and capable, I should be able to deliver at least the game with 4 features right? If I could not even deliver that, what does it tell about my character?
    I think people need to read carefully here. There's a smoke coming out of the project SC. No one outside the company may never know for sure whether there is fire or not. But pretending to not see the smoke when people are coughing left and right does not make it go away.
  • MrSnufflesMrSnuffles Member UncommonPosts: 1,117
    edited October 2015
    Erillion said:
    Originally posted by TheOctagon
    thats $6,000,000+  on salaries each year.

    So ... with 85 M$ ...CIG can pay them for .. like ... 14 years ... is that what you want to tell us ?

    Have fun

    You must have gotten your BA Major at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry because you obviously use some kind of magic where you have no other costs than employees. Does your company also offer free transportation via broomstick?
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

    "It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
    - Michael Bitton
    Community Manager, MMORPG.com

    "As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law

    "I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." 
    - SEANMCAD

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  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,910
    it appears that Derek Smart, having comprehensively failed to create anything of note in his life, has now set out to attempt to destroy something of note...
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    it appears that Derek Smart, having comprehensively failed to create anything of note in his life, has now set out to attempt to destroy something of note...
    Something of note?

    The cash shop...thats the only thing we know for a fact is working extremely well.

    The game................./watches tumbleweeds roll by
  • ElsaboltsElsabolts Member RarePosts: 3,438
    It does not take a software engineer to deposite money in the bank. Those folks who seem to get upset all seem to have a questionable education.
    " Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Those Who  Would Threaten It "
                                            MAGA
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,702
    edited October 2015
    Erillion said:
    Originally posted by TheOctagon
    thats $6,000,000+  on salaries each year.

    So ... with 85 M$ ...CIG can pay them for .. like ... 14 years ... is that what you want to tell us ?

    Have fun

    You must have gotten your BA Major at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry because you obviously use some kind of magic where you have no other costs than employees. Does your company also offer free transportation via broomstick?
    @MrSnuffles

    Is your question addressed at me or TheOctagon ?

    Because we BOTH doubt TheOctagons number, as you can see from my reply above.

    I have posted  a  personal (gu)estimate on current CIG cash burn-rate in several threads here. My guess is 2.4 M$ per month at the current level of 255 employees, ramping up from 5 employees in 2012,  59 at the end of 2013, 183 at the end of 2014 and to 255 now.

    My estimate is based on average programmer salaries in US (link was given) and typical overhead cost.


    Have fun



    PS:
    As to your other question:
    "Does your company also offer free transportation via broomstick?"
    Nah, we are more the  Boing Triple 7 types .... i am not into open top convertibles ....

  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,259
    edited October 2015

    So what does any of this prove?

    The controls are complete crap, the flight model remains awful, the FPS is still missing, the game remains behind schedule, all of these things are true despite whatever veritable talent is on the job.

    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]
    ---
    Behind schedule is a common thing but when you give a date and still can't release something 6 months later and resort to stripping out a load of the things you delayed it for in the first place, you can't help but wonder what's going on. Yes it's ambitious but the ambition has to stop somewhere or you end up in the realms of over-embellishment and mismanagement.
    Post edited by Amana on
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