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Early MMORPGs who did PVP exceptionally well?

2

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  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Scorchien  You know universally what they are about , they are about havin fuggin fun , instead of poo pooin another thread with useless drivel just stay out of it or contribute to what the op asked ... 

    It's not useless drivel. The OP is asking about PVP design. It's critical for a PVP designer to understand that casual PVP is objectively less popular compared with pure PVP genres (pure meaning there are no significant non-skill factors; examples include most FPS, RTS, fighting, and MOBA games.) 

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Scorchien The OP asked for a discussion about MMORPG PvP ... not FPS , Not MOBA..... so those are pointless here

    Other genres provide a large pool of accumulated knowledge behind exceptional PVP design.  Knowledge is neither pointless or useless. Don't ignore it.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • Righteous_RockRighteous_Rock Member RarePosts: 1,233

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magestorm

     

    Mark Jacobs , Rob Denton, Matt Firor ... nuff said

  • WizardryWizardry Member EpicPosts: 14,557

    Exceptionally well?You just eliminated every single rpg from the list.

    The best two pvp games imo were Quake and Unreal Tournament,reason is simple,multiple faceted weapon choices,great map control and movement options and tons of ways to out think out smart your opponent.Defensive and offensive positions in great well laid out maps and great options for prediction skills.Oh then we have sounds,it took me a long time to grasp it but the top players were utilizing sounds to better their options.

    RPG's can offer NONE of that,not one single aspect of pvp is good in rpg's.That is why if a rpg is trying to sell me on pvp ,i just look the other way and ignore it.

    This does not mean a rpg cannot get it right or at least come close to improving pvp,but we won't see happen,we just won't.Arena style game design is easier and faster,so more time to make the quality aspects of the game.RPG's are too busy trying to do everything but never achieving top notch with any of it's facets.Basically fps's are one dimensional games,they aim at being great at one thing,RPG's are jack of all trades master of none.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035
    Originally posted by Righteous_Rock
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magestorm   Mark Jacobs , Rob Denton, Matt Firor ... nuff said

     

    And the company went on to become Mythic.  How cool is that?  Thanks for the tip.  Found video.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • Righteous_RockRighteous_Rock Member RarePosts: 1,233
    Originally posted by ZombieKen
    Originally posted by Righteous_Rock
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magestorm   Mark Jacobs , Rob Denton, Matt Firor ... nuff said

     

    And the company went on to become Mythic.  How cool is that?  Thanks for the tip.  Found video.

    You're welcome

    I loved this game back in the day I used to pay $2/hr to play. I was in a guild with people from all over the world and we competed at all times of the day against other guilds. I know it's not a traditional mmorpg, and actually has alot of fps in it, but it really had some unique features like the ability to lay down a wall immediately air wall, wood wall, stone walls ... (during gameplay), or lay down a spring so you can jump higher, certain classes got weaker as they moved to different locations on the map and so on... The classes were so different and yet the game was very well balanced.

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member EpicPosts: 7,590
    For me, L2 and Aion. And how could I forget SWG.

    “We see the world, not as it is, but as we are or, as we are conditioned to see it.”   ― Stephen R. Covey

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 17,631

    Lineage (not Lin2) had the best PvP I've ever played by far.

    • Guild based castle control
    • Sieges that mattered (owner controlled a dungeon and the local tax rate)
    • PK had consequences
    • PvP for PvE resources and PvE resources mattered in both PvE and PvP
    • PvP for political control
    • Multiple factions based on ever changing guild alliances
    • Open world
    • Open dungeons
    • Dueling/sparring
    • Multi-cultural
    • Politics
    • Community driven and policed
    *INCOMING RADIOACTIVE SUPERCELL*
    ...silent protagonist, Interloper, Traveller, Anomaly...


  • dplcafdplcaf Member UncommonPosts: 59
    Originally posted by Righteous_Rock
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magestorm   Mark Jacobs , Rob Denton, Matt Firor ... nuff said

     

    Best FPS ever, the game was simply amazing and some people paid per hour to play, I did! lol..

    Notable mentions to the Old-school list, and basically made by most of the same team.

    Darkness Falls

    Darkness Falls: The Crusade

    Mythics first RvRvR, a text based game, with a simplistic user interface. Simply incredible.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkness_Falls:_The_Crusade

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    DaoC but Lineage did have some interesting ideas as well. Loved the idea that guilds could go to war with eachother.
  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,016

    EVE

    EVE was released in 2003 and is primarily PVP focused, so I guess it fits the definition.  Personally, I thought the PVP was pretty bad until a couple years after release. Mid 2005 - 2008 era EVE Online was the best PVP I've ever had the privilege to experience.  

    Then CCP decided to turn all our ships into space bricks, give alliances infinite mobility with jump bridges/portals, introduce absurdly overpowered T3 cruisers, turned a single module worth less than a million ISK into a show stopper, and killed off solo PVP.

    These days I fly around in NPSI fleets and F1 monkey along with everyone else.  Every once in a while we get a fun fight out of it.  Nowhere near the adrenaline rush of catching an Abaddon ratting in a null sec asteroid belt while flying a Vagabond and then actually killing it.

    Yeah, I'm a bittervet.

  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    Originally posted by Torval
    Lineage (not Lin2) had the best PvP I've ever played by far. Guild based castle control Sieges that mattered (owner controlled a dungeon and the local tax rate) PK had consequences PvP for PvE resources and PvE resources mattered in both PvE and PvP PvP for political control Multiple factions based on ever changing guild alliances Open world Open dungeons Dueling/sparring Multi-cultural Politics Community driven and policed

    LoL, no offense but you also just described lineage 2 (and I mean 2003 - 2005, not the phony it is today). I never got to play L1, but I hear it was doing better in korea than L2. Wonder why they shut it down instead of shutting L2 down, or both.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • YoungCaesarYoungCaesar Member UncommonPosts: 323
    Originally posted by Righteous_Rock
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magestorm   Mark Jacobs , Rob Denton, Matt Firor ... nuff said

    Wow Ive been looking for a game like this forever, a FPS with spells. Only similar game that comes to mind is Dark Messiah, I dont think you can play them tho : /

     

    Anyone knows any more games of this type?

  • HelleriHelleri Member UncommonPosts: 930
    Originally posted by RelytDnegel
    Originally posted by Helleri
    Originally posted by lebros1989
    Runescape classic. THE ORIGINAL. Not the 2007 graphic updated shit. Wilderness increasing the level difference of combat engagements, locked into 3 swings, losing EVERYTHING if you had a skull or only keeping 3 items if you had no skull. That shit got me shaking in my seat.

    Same for me. But The wilderness was mothered by necessity. It didn't exist in the earliest days of the game. And, how well it turned out was an example of getting it right the first time mixed with a little luck. Before that it was open world pvp. There was a button that could be toggled. Clicked off was non-pk (non player killing = cannot be attacked or attack anyone). Clicked on it was pk (could attack and be attacked by any one). And before wilderness was installed that was a problem for two reasons:

     

    1) The toggle button started on non-pk. Something that wasn't made apparent to players is that you could only change it 3 times. So, many players got stuck on pk before it became well known. There were safe zones of course. The part of Lumbridge (the newb town) that is today encircled by blue banners marks the biggest one. And, besides that banks were also safe. But there was only one server then. And, this meant many players fought to control territory (defined by valuable resources like mining camps).

     

    [Note: Incidentally this why the first clans formed and why they are called clans in Runescape and not guilds (because they were smaller looser associations then a guild with no in-game support for running them at the time].

     

    2) In pk mode...anyone could attack anyone. A level 40 could attack a level 3. And with no level restrictions (on any gear, not just on player killing), a level 3 with the bank roll could wield and wear the best armor and weapon (rune long sword at the time) in the game. So it was very chaotic

     

    The advent of the wilderness came with level restrictions on gear. The wilderness was an area the size of the existing game world (at the time) that was added onto the far northern limits of the world. A baron land with scorched earth, dead trees, undead creatures, and lava instead of rivers and lakes. And it graduated in level as on went further north into it. at level 1 wilderness (just after it's border). A player could attack another player or be attacked by another player who was within 1 level of them. But, go as deep as the northern most limits (level 40). And, a level 60 could own a level 20. Likewise a group of level 20's could gang up on a level 60. Add in a rock, paper, scissors like trump system. As well as easy interface and simple mechanics. And RSC PvP was really good and the majority focus of the game back then.

     

    [Note: I realize the person I am responding to likely knows most if not all of this. I wrote it out for the benefit of those who don't and want to know what about the games pvp made it so good].

    The main thing that killed PvP for me in Runescape (I like most played a lot once upon a time) was the insane amounts food could heal for. I mean food could out heal any dps in a 1v1 situation and it just kind of came down to people chomping away on food and then running when they were close to being out. I just never really understood the mechanic and kind of made it pointless for me.

    That is something I mainly saw happen with unskilled players. People who didn't understand that an even match wasn't worth bothering with. Most of them were too scared to step in any further then lvl 2 wildy. Just trying to jump people and drop scavenge on the border. These were the newbs in full rune addy with rune longs beating each other. There were unspoken rules of wilderness. Never fight your own combat type. Always run from what trumps you naturally. If you see 2 pk'ers not fighting first thing you do is say "team?" If you see two lone pk'ers fighting. step out of mini map view and wait 60 seconds. then try to mop up (unless it would violate one of the first two rules). Being a good pk'er was about learning to pick your battles. It was only the bad ones who got locked down food newbing it.

    image

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 19,018

    EQ1 vanilla due to horrible imbalance which was really fun.

    Being able to kill a player by charming + sitting them down at the bottom of a lake so they drown while having zero control over their character - epic.

    Same goes for Midgard healers in DAOC vanilla with group mez that didn't have target limit and don't have decay son could be chained endlessly. Crazy OP and crazy fun.

    Once everything gets equalized and nerfed to hell you gain more balance and more fair play but often lose the fun too.

    IMO imbalanced PvP was what early games did well, and yes it was fun while it lasted.

  • HelleriHelleri Member UncommonPosts: 930
    Originally posted by kenpokiller
    Both were great. RSC was brutal. I liked hybridding a lot in RS2. Escaping was perhaps a bit too easy but "Share I TBed" is something I jokingly say to this day xD. So many more builds and setups were possible in the new system. RS3 is a joke. & I did a lot of betatesting for their combat system, they ruined what little skill they put into it. xD

    RS3 doesn't exist. It has been scraped. The current game is still RS2. What makes it a new version of the game is moving to a new engine. And, given the failure of the HTML5 engine. It's still running off the same engine that it was when they made the move to RS2. They will have to change soon though. They have pushed Java to the limits for what they want to do. Sometime late this year or early next year is supposed to be another (hopefully better) attempt. And, I do hope good PvP is part of the package. Meanwhile Legacy mode has opened PvP back up for a lot of people. So has things like Warbands. So, pvP popularity is slowly creeping back.

    image

  • RudedawgCDNRudedawgCDN Member UncommonPosts: 507

    Shadowbane should be #1 on your list.

    EPIC PVP.

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 19,018

    Originally posted by RudedawgCDN

    Shadowbane should be #1 on your list.EPIC PVP.

     

    Epic client hacks - ability to telport to a player and attack with 100% accuracy as well as 100% effect proc rate on every swing. Yep. My favorite was being telepoeted via client hack to off map location in the middle of the ocean and killed. Was fun...... erhm. :)

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by DMKano
      Originally posted by RudedawgCDN

    Shadowbane should be #1 on your list. EPIC PVP.

    Epic client hacks - ability to telport to a player and attack with 100% accuracy as well as 100% effect proc rate on every swing. Yep. My favorite was being telepoeted via client hack to off map location in the middle of the ocean and killed. Was fun...... erhm. :)

    That has nothing to do with the PVP. That's like dismissing DAoC's RvR because there was once a duping bug.  

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • IssieaIssiea Member Posts: 75
    Originally posted by Ice-Queen
    Pre-ToA Expansion Dark Age of Camelot was the best pvp game I have ever played.

     

    Indeed!  Loved every minute of it :)

    image
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 19,018
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by DMKano
      Originally posted by RudedawgCDN

    Shadowbane should be #1 on your list. EPIC PVP.

    Epic client hacks - ability to telport to a player and attack with 100% accuracy as well as 100% effect proc rate on every swing. Yep. My favorite was being telepoeted via client hack to off map location in the middle of the ocean and killed. Was fun...... erhm. :)

    That has nothing to do with the PVP. That's like dismissing DAoC's RvR because there was once a duping bug.  

     

    You are correct, I actually really loved Shadowbane, and hacking aside, it was a very good pvp game.
  • DrevarDrevar Member UncommonPosts: 177

    Hah! Yeah the old AOL Neverwinter Nights PvP.  As far as I recall, that was the first time I ever heard the term PvP.  It was a bit tougher for me being a Ranger/MU rather than the standard CLAM.

    Shout out to my first online guild, the Brotherhood of Pathfinders...*raises mug of Frenzy*

    "If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let their be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it."
    -Luke McKinney, The 7 Biggest Dick Moves in the History of Online Gaming

    "In the end, SWG may have been more potential and promise than fulfilled expectation. But I'd rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
    -Raph Koster

  • ThorkuneThorkune Member UncommonPosts: 1,969
    SWG's bounty hunter system is my all time favorite PvP. The adrenaline rush from hunting/being hunted was amazing.
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  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,180
    SWG, the TEF system, as well as their three faction system and base systems.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


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