Guilds are not necessarily meant to be some all-inclusive group. If they were, why would they exist if everyone on the server was in it? Guilds function to set you APART from the rest of the server. To say " THIS IS US". Trying to control who people identify with is just... sad.
If you want to make a guild with open recruiting knock yourself out!
If someone else wants to recruit people who's name begins with J... LET THEM
If someone else wants to recruit only people that are unemployed... Go for it!
Stop trying to control who OTHER people can game with.
I'm not controlling who you game with, you have the freedom to choose witch guild you want to join, and if you want to join one in the first place.
The guild has the freedom to let you into the guild if they want to.
What I'm saying is, they shouldn't be allowed to discriminate based on gender. That doesn't force you to play with anyone anymore than in a male/female-only guild.
Stop trying to DEFEND people EXCLUDING others based on GENDER.
It's not discrimination. Guilds are private organizations, and as such can set their membership rules and goals any way they want. They are private organizations within a private, commercial product.
No, you cannot join the all girl guild. Get over it.
No one should force anyone to accept anyone. People should be convinced. But the heart of freedom is choice...freedom of association. Should NCAAP be forced to accept rabid KKK members. Instead people want to pick the "ok" forced associations....basically they want to be oppressors.
Umm, just to add my 2 cents, I kinda have a bigger problem with Teamspeak only guilds that will not let us type in chat. I don't care about sexist and racist guilds because they are so few and if you don't want to be in one you can avoid them easily. But you cannot avoid Teamspeak guilds anymore. If I want a decent raiding guild I am forced to use Teamspeak. When using Teamspeak I run into my other problem. I keep getting hit on by the ladies. I would just rather type so everyone could stay focused on the game.
I'm of the opinion that a guild is a private organization and they have the right to conduct "business" as they see fit.
If a guild wants to be welcoming to people from all walks of life that is their business.
If a guild wants to only fraternize with a certain demographic of people that is their business.
while one might not like a female only, male only, gay only etc guild that is where one's involvement should end.
Part of being in a free society is knowing there are people out there who might disagree with you or your ideals and maybe even be diametrically opposed to everything you believe in.
As long as they are not a public institution or are not breaking any laws, they should be able to convene in a way that they find suitable for their group.
What about family only guilds? Does that mean that family only guilds have to allow strangers?
Or should a guild that is gay friendly have to allow a bigot?
No, it's their guild and as long as they don't go out of their way to inconvenience others then "it's their guild and they should be allowed to run it as they see fit".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
"I would never join any guild that would have me as a member".
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Originally posted by Jemcrystal Umm, just to add my 2 cents, I kinda have a bigger problem with Teamspeak only guilds that will not let us type in chat. I don't care about sexist and racist guilds because they are so few and if you don't want to be in one you can avoid them easily. But you cannot avoid Teamspeak guilds anymore. If I want a decent raiding guild I am forced to use Teamspeak. When using Teamspeak I run into my other problem. I keep getting hit on by the ladies. I would just rather type so everyone could stay focused on the game.
That's a good point and part of why I preferred old MMOs. Typing was the only way to chat and it went a long way towards keeping people more interested in playing the game. There were no squeaky voices, female voices, annoying swearing, accents, etc. None of those are bad, but they do break immersion a lot and also lead to other potential problems. Most people can type and read fairly fast these days. I don't see why people can't manage to conduct large events without verbal communication. When you are typing you aren't judged for anything, but what you say and that is great IMO. There is no real bias from appearance or sound.
I've seen a few female only guilds adverts or such, never seen a male only one though even if probably 90% of guilds in effect are, I never seen a guild advertise as one though.
I do agree though in principle, i also think guilds that incorporate other things such as religion, politics and sexual preference etc into their profile fall in the same category. Personally I wouldn't even join a country(language) specific guild but at least that one makes sense if people have poor english.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal Umm, just to add my 2 cents, I kinda have a bigger problem with Teamspeak only guilds that will not let us type in chat. I don't care about sexist and racist guilds because they are so few and if you don't want to be in one you can avoid them easily. But you cannot avoid Teamspeak guilds anymore. If I want a decent raiding guild I am forced to use Teamspeak. When using Teamspeak I run into my other problem. I keep getting hit on by the ladies. I would just rather type so everyone could stay focused on the game.
That's a good point and part of why I preferred old MMOs. Typing was the only way to chat and it went a long way towards keeping people more interested in playing the game. There were no squeaky voices, female voices, annoying swearing, accents, etc. None of those are bad, but they do break immersion a lot and also lead to other potential problems. Most people can type and read fairly fast these days. I don't see why people can't manage to conduct large events without verbal communication. When you are typing you aren't judged for anything, but what you say and that is great IMO. There is no real bias from appearance or sound.
Good point.
I personally think that voice chat was a big reason why games turned into the things we have today. It destroyed the immersion, which led to the immersive elements getting taken out. It raised the demands on players, causing games to simplify the games. It turned guild membership into an exercise in HR, causing the games to create organization tools outside of guilds (LFG systems, matchmaking).
And, frankly, I see more and more people who used to use it all the time not use it anymore. The reasons to use it just aren't there as much.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Jemcrystal Umm, just to add my 2 cents, I kinda have a bigger problem with Teamspeak only guilds that will not let us type in chat. I don't care about sexist and racist guilds because they are so few and if you don't want to be in one you can avoid them easily. But you cannot avoid Teamspeak guilds anymore. If I want a decent raiding guild I am forced to use Teamspeak. When using Teamspeak I run into my other problem. I keep getting hit on by the ladies. I would just rather type so everyone could stay focused on the game.
That's a good point and part of why I preferred old MMOs. Typing was the only way to chat and it went a long way towards keeping people more interested in playing the game. There were no squeaky voices, female voices, annoying swearing, accents, etc. None of those are bad, but they do break immersion a lot and also lead to other potential problems. Most people can type and read fairly fast these days. I don't see why people can't manage to conduct large events without verbal communication. When you are typing you aren't judged for anything, but what you say and that is great IMO. There is no real bias from appearance or sound.
Good point.
I personally think that voice chat was a big reason why games turned into the things we have today. It destroyed the immersion, which led to the immersive elements getting taken out. It raised the demands on players, causing games to simplify the games. It turned guild membership into an exercise in HR, causing the games to create organization tools outside of guilds (LFG systems, matchmaking).
And, frankly, I see more and more people who used to use it all the time not use it anymore. The reasons to use it just aren't there as much.
You're just looking for any excuse that may or may not have "ruined MMOs", aren't you? Voice comms got "immersive elements taken out ... causing games to simplify...".
You can't be this dumb! No level-headed person would make that connection.
The deal is, if you have time to type something in the midst of combat, chances are the combat is not very engaging. Typing might have been OK once upon a time - when we had combat systems relying heavily on auto attack and dice rolls, but that just doesn't cut it these days.
And if you refuse to use one mode of communication completely, the most efficient one, you don't get to complain about the lack of socializing in these games either. Get with the times or get out.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Jemcrystal Umm, just to add my 2 cents, I kinda have a bigger problem with Teamspeak only guilds that will not let us type in chat. I don't care about sexist and racist guilds because they are so few and if you don't want to be in one you can avoid them easily. But you cannot avoid Teamspeak guilds anymore. If I want a decent raiding guild I am forced to use Teamspeak. When using Teamspeak I run into my other problem. I keep getting hit on by the ladies. I would just rather type so everyone could stay focused on the game.
That's a good point and part of why I preferred old MMOs. Typing was the only way to chat and it went a long way towards keeping people more interested in playing the game. There were no squeaky voices, female voices, annoying swearing, accents, etc. None of those are bad, but they do break immersion a lot and also lead to other potential problems. Most people can type and read fairly fast these days. I don't see why people can't manage to conduct large events without verbal communication. When you are typing you aren't judged for anything, but what you say and that is great IMO. There is no real bias from appearance or sound.
Good point.
I personally think that voice chat was a big reason why games turned into the things we have today. It destroyed the immersion, which led to the immersive elements getting taken out. It raised the demands on players, causing games to simplify the games. It turned guild membership into an exercise in HR, causing the games to create organization tools outside of guilds (LFG systems, matchmaking).
And, frankly, I see more and more people who used to use it all the time not use it anymore. The reasons to use it just aren't there as much.
You're just looking for any excuse that may or may not have "ruined MMOs", aren't you? Voice comms got "immersive elements taken out ... causing games to simplify...".
You can't be this dumb! No level-headed person would make that connection.
The deal is, if you have time to type something in the midst of combat, chances are the combat is not very engaging. Typing might have been OK once upon a time - when we had combat systems relying heavily on auto attack and dice rolls, but that just doesn't cut it these days.
And if you refuse to use one mode of communication completely, the most efficient one, you don't get to complain about the lack of socializing in these games either. Get with the times or get out.
I think anybody who has played a wide range of multiplayer games over the last decade or so will observe, quite readily, that voice chat is more of a psychological comfort than a useful tool in multiplayer tactics.
Take the most extreme example, first person shooters. The best and most experienced players don't even need to chat or make their intentions known...they just do their jobs without needing prompting. They can react to the environment and the cues on the screen faster and more intuitively than they can react to a verbal command or request. The best teams I was on in matchmaking sessions were the most quiet teams...when people were chatty, it was always to make up for their lack of skill...trying to deflect blame or trying to get help for their ineptitude. Invariably, verbal chatting almost always degenerates into OCC, non-game related BS, because you really don't need--and never really needed--voice chat at all to play and play well. And this goes for FPS, to raids, to MOBA.
But what voice chat is really good for, more than anything, is a psychological reassurance. It is quite comforting to know that you can shout "help" and get help...even when the amount of time that it takes to shout "help", have someone hear "help", interpret if the help is a false call or a real call, weigh it accordingly, and act upon it actually slows down flow and makes coordination more inefficient. Neuroscientifically speaking, language interpretation is a complex thing, and complex things are slow. Reacting to the visual communication of the action played out on the screen is faster.
It is also psychologically comforting to know that you can rationalize ineptitude and tragedy, should it befall you. Voice chat allows players to do that as well. But one wonders if this is really improving outcomes, or providing an illusion of improvement?
Perhaps that's why I've noticed, at least in my own experiences online and by reading testamonials of people in forums like these, an apparent decrease in the number of people who go on voice chat. It's still there, and many players still won't game without it, but I see a lot of people hang it up and play without it. So if "getting with the times" is what I should do, I guess it's best just to go silent, get grouped via matchmaker, do my job and leave all the voice chat drama to the dramatists.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I think anybody who has played a wide range of multiplayer games over the last decade or so will observe, quite readily, that voice chat is more of a psychological comfort than a useful tool in multiplayer tactics.
Take the most extreme example, first person shooters. The best and most experienced players don't even need to chat or make their intentions known...they just do their jobs without needing prompting. They can react to the environment and the cues on the screen faster and more intuitively than they can react to a verbal command or request. The best teams I was on in matchmaking sessions were the most quiet teams...when people were chatty, it was always to make up for their lack of skill...trying to deflect blame or trying to get help for their ineptitude. Invariably, verbal chatting almost always degenerates into OCC, non-game related BS, because you really don't need--and never really needed--voice chat at all to play and play well. And this goes for FPS, to raids, to MOBA.
But what voice chat is really good for, more than anything, is a psychological reassurance. It is quite comforting to know that you can shout "help" and get help...even when the amount of time that it takes to shout "help", have someone hear "help", interpret if the help is a false call or a real call, weigh it accordingly, and act upon it actually slows down flow and makes coordination more inefficient. Neuroscientifically speaking, language interpretation is a complex thing, and complex things are slow. Reacting to the visual communication of the action played out on the screen is faster.
It is also psychologically comforting to know that you can rationalize ineptitude and tragedy, should it befall you. Voice chat allows players to do that as well. But one wonders if this is really improving outcomes, or providing an illusion of improvement?
Perhaps that's why I've noticed, at least in my own experiences online and by reading testamonials of people in forums like these, an apparent decrease in the number of people who go on voice chat. It's still there, and many players still won't game without it, but I see a lot of people hang it up and play without it. So if "getting with the times" is what I should do, I guess it's best just to go silent, get grouped via matchmaker, do my job and leave all the voice chat drama to the dramatists.
No, sorry, I'm not going to take the bait. Even a moderately competent competitive player will say that's bullshit.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
No, sorry, I'm not going to take the bait. Even a moderately competent competitive player will say that's bullshit.
I'd assume that moderately competitive players would most certainly protest to an honest assessment of voice chat...because they are probably only moderately competitive (at best). They aren't in the game 100%...they have to divide their attention between the game and the gabbing.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I can't even take this topic seriously. I play FFXIV and with fantasia (appearance changer, plus race and gender changer), me and friends have changed genders and races like several times. I guess some people just don't give a flying crap about people's gender and focus on playing the game and having fun with one another.
Also, some of these comments about females in MMORPGs I've read from the men, are just plain insulting. Grow up. I'm not even female and I'm saying this. It's ridiculous to think that one gender causes more drama than the other. I've experienced equal drama from both genders.
The purpose of a guild is to form a group of like-minded individuals who can congregate based on a set of common ideologies, goals, principals, or backgrounds. With all belief systems there will inevitably be ones that you agree with and ones that you don't. By allowing a space (in this case a guild) for people to grow their belief system it stratifies clear groups where you can identify which one you belong with. In this example you have a core group of individuals who are clearly okay with gender discrimination (by your account). Would you feel comfortable playing with a group of players who feel this way? Obviously not. It doesn't mean they should abandon their belief system and allow you in, it just means you should look elsewhere for a guild.
Lately I've seen a few female-only guilds in the games I play, and for some reason this was bugging me - I didn't feel it was the right attitude to have towards other players.
I'm not talking about ingame character gender, but the real life gender of the player.
I've known about male-only guilds for a long time, and I didn't really like them, something seemed not right about it to me. So I never joined one.
The reason guilds have been for guys only has been explained with it being the best solution to avoid guild drama due when a girl joins the guild, - the guys start drooling at the girl instead of the endgame loot and the guildmaster (he's ofc male) tears his hair out because of the lack of focus from the members and potential jealousy between them.
This seems like a somewhat valid reason, but it really isn't.
And female-only guilds refuse all males because they want to have a sanctuary from pestering guys, sexual harrasment and all of that. Perhaps being able to talk about whatever they like without getting complaints from guys.
Again seems perfectly understandable, but again the handling of it is wrong.
If we are to have really good guilds to be in, they can't discriminate against real life gender. And to do that we have to look at what's really causing the problems, and that means looking at each individual that gets invited or are already in the guild.
For guilds that find it problematic that girls join, they have to look at the attitudes and behaviour of those that start making drama of a girl being in the guild. Although it could ofc be the girl herself, I bet it would in most cases be a bunch of the guys in that guild that can't cope with having a girl there, and hence they should be the ones to go, not the girl.
Same applies to female only guilds, the one who is actually causing the trouble should be the one that has to leave, not the target of the drama so to speak. If a guy behaves badly they have to leave, but to refuse all guys because of some guys being jerks seems unreasonable to me.
And it could of course be that, theoretically, a guy becomes the target of some drama, while the ones causing it are a bunch of girls. That could also happen, for whatever reason.
So what I want to say is that I don't want to have anything to do with neither male- nor female-only guilds, because it shows a lack of leadership responsibility not to deal with the individuals that aren't actually behaving as they should in a guild, while the ones being invited haven't done anything wrong. (ofc it could be that both parts are misbehaving and then they both have to go).
Hence I would suggest that players boycott those kind of guilds. We don't need more discrimination in the world than what we already have, that's the way I see it anyway.
This may occur for a number of reasons. The first reason that comes to mind is that men are naturally attracted (not always sexually) to women especially when they enjoy similar hobbies. The second being either sex will get jealous or envious on occasion due to whom in the guild stays in contact more often with one another. One thing that may reduce this is not gossiping about what other players have chatted about instead chatting about each other's strengths and/or humorous anecdotes. Shared experiences are not so bad. You make a valid point in the thread.
I can't even take this topic seriously. I play FFXIV and with fantasia (appearance changer, plus race and gender changer), me and friends have changed genders and races like several times. I guess some people just don't give a flying crap about people's gender and focus on playing the game and having fun with one another.
Also, some of these comments about females in MMORPGs I've read from the men, are just plain insulting. Grow up. I'm not even female and I'm saying this. It's ridiculous to think that one gender causes more drama than the other. I've experienced equal drama from both genders.
Yup, there are more epeens being waved about than there are eboobs. And there are two boobs for each avatar whereas there is only one epeen per avatar. Well, except for Second Life.
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone." Robin Williams
To be fair sometimes it is very hard to identify the quality of the individuals in question when they applies for a guild.
They can act and appear cool just to get into the guild but after a time their true self reveals and they turn out to be douchebags. This occurs not just in game but in all sorts of personal and social situations.
If they can't even reliably identify douchebags through professional job interviews or even for some people in a relationship which ended up in divorce, what chance is there really in identifying them through a simple guild application? lol
So on the flip side of the coin I can understand why some guild feels the need to introduce specific criteria for entry, not just "being a good guy".
I want to preface this by saying, nothing against you personally. Just spot checking some information (which if you take it the right way. It will aid you in better explaining your stance to people in-game). I understand that some of what I say, may not be what you wanted to come across. I encourage you to think of it as a 'letter of the word' critique, entirely divorced from critisism of you or your views personally.
The first thing I want to address is that this is segregation. Segregation in-and-of-itself is not wrong (and, not necessarily discriminatory). It becomes wrong if it is done for discriminatory reasons. However, if those reasons are not clear (even to the people participating in the segregating practice). Then it is primarily ignorance over willful discrimination to blame (discrimination can be on accident and when it is the root problem is a lack of information to make a sound judgment on).
Lately I've seen a few female-only guilds in the games I play, and for some reason this was bugging me - I didn't feel it was the right attitude to have towards other players.
Behavior, not attitude (how you feel is not always in line with how you act).
I'm not talking about ingame character gender, but the real life gender of the player.
Gender is an expression of self. A social construct that is fluid and changes over time (not always just in societal terms on the whole but sometimes often over the course of an individuals life). One's Gender may have nothing to do with one's sex. For instance: A male is a male whether he is Homesexual, Hetrosexual, Bisexual, or Asexual.
I've known about male-only guilds for a long time, and I didn't really like them, something seemed not right about it to me. So I never joined one.
The reason guilds have been for guys only has been explained with it being the best solution to avoid guild drama due when a girl joins the guild, - the guys start drooling at the girl instead of the endgame loot and the guildmaster (he's ofc male) tears his hair out because of the lack of focus from the members and potential jealousy between them.
This seems like a somewhat valid reason, but it really isn't.
Correct...The female is not responsible for the males' misconduct. And, should not be excluded due to it. If a guild Master cannot keep his own people in check or delegate that responsibility to worthy people, they have no business being the head of a guild.
And female-only guilds refuse all males because they want to have a sanctuary from pestering guys, sexual harrasment and all of that. Perhaps being able to talk about whatever they like without getting complaints from guys.
Again seems perfectly understandable, but again the handling of it is wrong.
Correct again.. However, they are refusing all males on an assumption (that the males are hetrosexual and have interest in them in that way). That is the first mistake (making a gross-generalization about all males). But, it's the same issue from another angle. Dealing with a problem by removing the need to actually deal with it (which will solve nothing and only breed resentment).
If we are to have really good guilds to be in, they can't discriminate against real life gender. And to do that we have to look at what's really causing the problems, and that means looking at each individual that gets invited or are already in the guild.
On a case-by-case basis. As in, if a problem comes up with someone, address it as it does. But, if we do away with assumption of excellence. And, we insert guilt until proven innocent. It is tantamount to profiling. And, a violation of a person's rights (to bring them into question prior to them having done a perceived wrong). For example: We don't go around putting people on trial for the likely-hood that they will commit murder sometime in the future.
For guilds that find it problematic that girls join, they have to look at the attitudes and behaviour of those that start making drama of a girl being in the guild. Although it could ofc be the girl herself, I bet it would in most cases be a bunch of the guys in that guild that can't cope with having a girl there, and hence they should be the ones to go, not the girl.
If you go into it with bias your results will come out reflecting it. And the solution does not necessarily have to be a ban or asking them to leave. Often times people are reasonable. If you explain to them why their actions are not acceptable. It is likely it can be resolved without someone departing in the end. A person having to go is actually the least desirable outcome. As it perpetuates segregation (dismissal over dealing). It may be absolutely necessary in some cases. But, The effort should be on resolution not disassociation.
Same applies to female only guilds, the one who is actually causing the trouble should be the one that has to leave, not the target of the drama so to speak. If a guy behaves badly they have to leave, but to refuse all guys because of some guys being jerks seems unreasonable to me.
And it could of course be that, theoretically, a guy becomes the target of some drama, while the ones causing it are a bunch of girls. That could also happen, for whatever reason.
So what I want to say is that I don't want to have anything to do with neither male- nor female-only guilds, because it shows a lack of leadership responsibility not to deal with the individuals that aren't actually behaving as they should in a guild, while the ones being invited haven't done anything wrong. (ofc it could be that both parts are misbehaving and then they both have to go).
Hence I would suggest that players boycott those kind of guilds. We don't need more discrimination in the world than what we already have, that's the way I see it anyway.
These are all sub points. Half correct and half in-line with things I have already said. It's just the blending of good and bad wording that taints the whole in this section. The biggest problem with this bottom section is that it comes to late. some of what you said here should have been said along side things you left vague... what you say first is what is going to stick. and that is going to make this part seem contradictory or like it is back pedaling. When really it is just an attempt at clarification that comes to late.
To be clear...You got the right idea. But, always remember that the devil is in the details. I hope you can use some or all of what I have said to improve how you discuss these matters. This isn't something I would normally do. But, this is a hot button issue right now. And, if you use the wrong wording in some places on such issues. you will be impaled with your own words, Labeled a misogynist, a 'mansplainer' and worse. This is a shaky road, speak softly and carry a big stick (for walking more stably on said shaky road of course. Not for assault).
Comments
It's not discrimination. Guilds are private organizations, and as such can set their membership rules and goals any way they want. They are private organizations within a private, commercial product.
No, you cannot join the all girl guild. Get over it.
I'm of the opinion that a guild is a private organization and they have the right to conduct "business" as they see fit.
If a guild wants to be welcoming to people from all walks of life that is their business.
If a guild wants to only fraternize with a certain demographic of people that is their business.
while one might not like a female only, male only, gay only etc guild that is where one's involvement should end.
Part of being in a free society is knowing there are people out there who might disagree with you or your ideals and maybe even be diametrically opposed to everything you believe in.
As long as they are not a public institution or are not breaking any laws, they should be able to convene in a way that they find suitable for their group.
What about family only guilds? Does that mean that family only guilds have to allow strangers?
Or should a guild that is gay friendly have to allow a bigot?
No, it's their guild and as long as they don't go out of their way to inconvenience others then "it's their guild and they should be allowed to run it as they see fit".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
That's a good point and part of why I preferred old MMOs. Typing was the only way to chat and it went a long way towards keeping people more interested in playing the game. There were no squeaky voices, female voices, annoying swearing, accents, etc. None of those are bad, but they do break immersion a lot and also lead to other potential problems. Most people can type and read fairly fast these days. I don't see why people can't manage to conduct large events without verbal communication. When you are typing you aren't judged for anything, but what you say and that is great IMO. There is no real bias from appearance or sound.
I've seen a few female only guilds adverts or such, never seen a male only one though even if probably 90% of guilds in effect are, I never seen a guild advertise as one though.
I do agree though in principle, i also think guilds that incorporate other things such as religion, politics and sexual preference etc into their profile fall in the same category. Personally I wouldn't even join a country(language) specific guild but at least that one makes sense if people have poor english.
Good point.
I personally think that voice chat was a big reason why games turned into the things we have today. It destroyed the immersion, which led to the immersive elements getting taken out. It raised the demands on players, causing games to simplify the games. It turned guild membership into an exercise in HR, causing the games to create organization tools outside of guilds (LFG systems, matchmaking).
And, frankly, I see more and more people who used to use it all the time not use it anymore. The reasons to use it just aren't there as much.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
You're just looking for any excuse that may or may not have "ruined MMOs", aren't you? Voice comms got "immersive elements taken out ... causing games to simplify...".
You can't be this dumb! No level-headed person would make that connection.
The deal is, if you have time to type something in the midst of combat, chances are the combat is not very engaging. Typing might have been OK once upon a time - when we had combat systems relying heavily on auto attack and dice rolls, but that just doesn't cut it these days.
And if you refuse to use one mode of communication completely, the most efficient one, you don't get to complain about the lack of socializing in these games either. Get with the times or get out.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I think anybody who has played a wide range of multiplayer games over the last decade or so will observe, quite readily, that voice chat is more of a psychological comfort than a useful tool in multiplayer tactics.
Take the most extreme example, first person shooters. The best and most experienced players don't even need to chat or make their intentions known...they just do their jobs without needing prompting. They can react to the environment and the cues on the screen faster and more intuitively than they can react to a verbal command or request. The best teams I was on in matchmaking sessions were the most quiet teams...when people were chatty, it was always to make up for their lack of skill...trying to deflect blame or trying to get help for their ineptitude. Invariably, verbal chatting almost always degenerates into OCC, non-game related BS, because you really don't need--and never really needed--voice chat at all to play and play well. And this goes for FPS, to raids, to MOBA.
But what voice chat is really good for, more than anything, is a psychological reassurance. It is quite comforting to know that you can shout "help" and get help...even when the amount of time that it takes to shout "help", have someone hear "help", interpret if the help is a false call or a real call, weigh it accordingly, and act upon it actually slows down flow and makes coordination more inefficient. Neuroscientifically speaking, language interpretation is a complex thing, and complex things are slow. Reacting to the visual communication of the action played out on the screen is faster.
It is also psychologically comforting to know that you can rationalize ineptitude and tragedy, should it befall you. Voice chat allows players to do that as well. But one wonders if this is really improving outcomes, or providing an illusion of improvement?
Perhaps that's why I've noticed, at least in my own experiences online and by reading testamonials of people in forums like these, an apparent decrease in the number of people who go on voice chat. It's still there, and many players still won't game without it, but I see a lot of people hang it up and play without it. So if "getting with the times" is what I should do, I guess it's best just to go silent, get grouped via matchmaker, do my job and leave all the voice chat drama to the dramatists.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
No, sorry, I'm not going to take the bait. Even a moderately competent competitive player will say that's bullshit.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I'd assume that moderately competitive players would most certainly protest to an honest assessment of voice chat...because they are probably only moderately competitive (at best). They aren't in the game 100%...they have to divide their attention between the game and the gabbing.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I can't even take this topic seriously. I play FFXIV and with fantasia (appearance changer, plus race and gender changer), me and friends have changed genders and races like several times. I guess some people just don't give a flying crap about people's gender and focus on playing the game and having fun with one another.
Also, some of these comments about females in MMORPGs I've read from the men, are just plain insulting. Grow up. I'm not even female and I'm saying this. It's ridiculous to think that one gender causes more drama than the other. I've experienced equal drama from both genders.
Smile
This may occur for a number of reasons. The first reason that comes to mind is that men are naturally attracted (not always sexually) to women especially when they enjoy similar hobbies. The second being either sex will get jealous or envious on occasion due to whom in the guild stays in contact more often with one another. One thing that may reduce this is not gossiping about what other players have chatted about instead chatting about each other's strengths and/or humorous anecdotes. Shared experiences are not so bad. You make a valid point in the thread.
Yup, there are more epeens being waved about than there are eboobs. And there are two boobs for each avatar whereas there is only one epeen per avatar. Well, except for Second Life.
To be fair sometimes it is very hard to identify the quality of the individuals in question when they applies for a guild.
They can act and appear cool just to get into the guild but after a time their true self reveals and they turn out to be douchebags. This occurs not just in game but in all sorts of personal and social situations.
If they can't even reliably identify douchebags through professional job interviews or even for some people in a relationship which ended up in divorce, what chance is there really in identifying them through a simple guild application? lol
So on the flip side of the coin I can understand why some guild feels the need to introduce specific criteria for entry, not just "being a good guy".
Not saying it doesn't happen...
I AM saying it is made up... A LOT!!
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
To be clear...You got the right idea. But, always remember that the devil is in the details. I hope you can use some or all of what I have said to improve how you discuss these matters. This isn't something I would normally do. But, this is a hot button issue right now. And, if you use the wrong wording in some places on such issues. you will be impaled with your own words, Labeled a misogynist, a 'mansplainer' and worse. This is a shaky road, speak softly and carry a big stick (for walking more stably on said shaky road of course. Not for assault).