Originally posted by Archlyte I believe that PFO is going to be my fantasy go-to game once it is finished. It's a long way from that, but I recognize the elements I like even through the construction scaffolding.
I think that's well said. There is a lot of work that needs to be done, but you can see where they are headed.
So how long do you think before the game is bug free and ready for a flood of new players? How long has the game been out already? Why should I consider starting this game when it will already be populated by veterans? People are not really interested in joining eve online at this point because the nature of the game and the amount of time many other people have already invested, they would have joined at the start if the start was today, why would I want to start a game when it goes live that already has a large population of people who are already "endgame" or set up in the world?
Ive heard the dev made a joke about selling skill points via the game store to allow people to buy the points they need to catch up. Im also aware that this game has a cash shop founders program and monthly sub but isnt even in open beta yet? What makes you think this type of payment model from a company is one we should support? WoW or FF or SWTOR or Eve or any number of games already offer a complete game for your sub, why should we choose this one, and to support what many people would see as a questionable sub/payment model. It really appears to me that this game is just trying to make as much money as it can before it dies, why am I wrong for thinking that?
Im really not trying to be rude about this either, I really am interested in hearing from the people that care about this game, why am I wrong for hating on it, Im willing to listen and change my mind, especially if I am wrong, but everything I have seen so far says im right... Most importantly why join a time based game that isnt gonna get a restart before launch?
1. When will the game be ready? My short answer, best guess is late fall/early winter. The issue isn't really bugs--there have been a couple significant bugs, but relatively few from my experience. The issue is more about the quality of graphics, amount of art assets, and completeness of features. There's only four classes in, and three races, and until some decent chunk of Paladins/Barbarians/Rangers/Druids/Sorcerers/Bards and gnomes/halflings are in, you're still in very early development. And while there are basic systems for settlement warfare and territory capture are in, and and getting fleshed out more and more all the time, it still has a way to go. If you want a feature complete game, you need to wait.
2. I never got the "why would I play if someone else is more powerful than me" concern, but I have heard it from enough people to recognize it is a real concern to some people. It may help to know that if new players are valuable to settlements: just joining mechanically helps the settlement, every activity from new players helps the settlement, and in a month or two you would be advanced enough in a single thing to contribute at a higher level. The difference is that while you can get to be a good enough wizard/fighter/cleric/rogue in a couple months to run with the big boys, the big boys also have stealth trained, have gathering skills trained, have a backup role (e.g. can swap from fighter to a backup healer). If that is something you can't live with, I can understand, and then PFO wouldn't be a good choice for you.
3. There's no "endgame" like in WoW or EQ. We will likely be fighting each other, and vying for power against other social groups, for a long time. Even after 2-3 years and I've maxed out cleric levels, I can then start maxing out wizard levels for a couple years.
4. There is a cash shop. The only item from it people have purchased is pretty so-so: a small personal building that is much less valuable than the one you can build in game. If they want to sell a few convenience items or cosmetics in the cash shop, fine by me--if they changed their policy and made the cash shop a cash grab ptw, I'd quit the game. You may have misunderstand the dev btw--the goal is to be able to pay for training either through money (your sub) or through in-game cash (like PLEX in EVE).
5. The only reason I can think of to join a game with steady power advancement over time is: because it's fun. We have a lot of new players in our settlement, and I think they enjoy playing because the game is fun. Killing monsters, and using the materials from that, along with gathered resources, to help our crafters make nice gear, and then using that gear to better protect our settlement from evil groups trying to rob us, and also being better able to do PvE, is fun. It's satisfying as we build up our holdings and outposts, and make our settlement more powerful. It's challenging--we recently had to move our crafting companies from our settlement over to another town to try and boost both settlements' crafting power, so there was a social/mechanical porblem to solve to get more powerful. We like having allies like the Buttonmakers of Alderwag, and the loyal and reliable dwarves of Forgeholm. And we are pledged against the Golgotha with every fiber of our being. If that sounds boring, then this game would be boring to you.
Thanks for the good questions and I hope my answers are helpful!
The steady release of updates is also relevant to your question. There's been 9 updates, they come out regularly, and each one has been substantial and improved the game in important ways. The devs promised that while the game was minimal at release, they would continually improve, and the fact that they have consistently honored that promise matters to me.
I agree with the OP that this game really matters. It sets the bar for new misschief from game developers. Now they know they can get away with charging full sub+box fee for what is basically an alpha testing phase, while accusing those fans of not doing enough PR work. The first ever 'early enrollment' and we were all here to witness it! Truly a revolution in gaming as once again the bar is lowered.
Actually, now it matters for quite the opposite reason.
Considering its failure, the gaming industry can now see what crossed a line and lead to a very rapid failure.
Lessons Learned (Hopefully):
1. If you don't have at least AA financing, don't try to develop an MMO on a shoe-string budget.
2. Don't try to use an out of date gaming engine to develop a game that will have to compete against games being made using engines that have room for growth.
3. Don't expect many to buy into a ridiculous "money grab" scheme of box price + subscription + cash shop
4. Develop the game in a sequence that makes sense. New Player Experience comes before End Game content, I would have thought that is common sense.
5. Don't play stupid word games with what state the game is actually in. If it is Alpha, or Beta, say it is. If you're too embarrassed to admit that you're charging a subscription fee for an unfinished project, than don't charge a subscription fee. Arguing it was not in Alpha or Beta just made you look like an ass and forced the review that was going to go badly.
6. STFU when you are doing more damage to your product than you are helping. People with titles tend to forget this.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
I agree with the OP that this game really matters. It sets the bar for new misschief from game developers. Now they know they can get away with charging full sub+box fee for what is basically an alpha testing phase, while accusing those fans of not doing enough PR work. The first ever 'early enrollment' and we were all here to witness it! Truly a revolution in gaming as once again the bar is lowered.
Actually, now it matters for quite the opposite reason.
Considering its failure, the gaming industry can now see what crossed a line and lead to a very rapid failure.
Lessons Learned (Hopefully):
1. If you don't have at least AA financing, don't try to develop an MMO on a shoe-string budget.
2. Don't try to use an out of date gaming engine to develop a game that will have to compete against games being made using engines that have room for growth.
3. Don't expect many to buy into a ridiculous "money grab" scheme of box price + subscription + cash shop
4. Develop the game in a sequence that makes sense. New Player Experience comes before End Game content, I would have thought that is common sense.
5. Don't play stupid word games with what state the game is actually in. If it is Alpha, or Beta, say it is. If you're too embarrassed to admit that you're charging a subscription fee for an unfinished project, than don't charge a subscription fee. Arguing it was not in Alpha or Beta just made you look like an ass and forced the review that was going to go badly.
6. STFU when you are doing more damage to your product than you are helping. People with titles tend to forget this.
Awesome post! Spot on and no one can argue otherwise as they no longer have legs to stand on.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I agree with the OP that this game really matters. It sets the bar for new misschief from game developers. Now they know they can get away with charging full sub+box fee for what is basically an alpha testing phase, while accusing those fans of not doing enough PR work. The first ever 'early enrollment' and we were all here to witness it! Truly a revolution in gaming as once again the bar is lowered.
Actually, now it matters for quite the opposite reason.
Considering its failure, the gaming industry can now see what crossed a line and lead to a very rapid failure.
Lessons Learned (Hopefully):
1. If you don't have at least AA financing, don't try to develop an MMO on a shoe-string budget.
2. Don't try to use an out of date gaming engine to develop a game that will have to compete against games being made using engines that have room for growth.
3. Don't expect many to buy into a ridiculous "money grab" scheme of box price + subscription + cash shop
4. Develop the game in a sequence that makes sense. New Player Experience comes before End Game content, I would have thought that is common sense.
5. Don't play stupid word games with what state the game is actually in. If it is Alpha, or Beta, say it is. If you're too embarrassed to admit that you're charging a subscription fee for an unfinished project, than don't charge a subscription fee. Arguing it was not in Alpha or Beta just made you look like an ass and forced the review that was going to go badly.
6. STFU when you are doing more damage to your product than you are helping. People with titles tend to forget this.
Awesome post! Spot on and no one can argue otherwise as they no longer have legs to stand on.
Yeah it's genuinely ESS AYCH EYE TEA that PFO has gone belly-up.
1. What creates a fun community of players in a virtual world? 2. How do you implement that in the leanest way for the smallest budget? 3. What size of player organizational units works best for both 1. and 2.? 4. What keeps players coming back again and again for "one more hit"? 5. Equally what is the opposite to that, "aversive" reactions?
Got to admit, I think PFO's GDD got 1. almost spot on with player-run settlements built around an economy and division of labour. That idea has currency for the future. The bit that really threw a spanner into the works was out of the KS pledgers, 80+% appear to be Paizo fans after the IP loot and not interested in the mmorpg at all. A big part of that problem seems to be the actual game-play of this type of "classic mmorpg model" as per EQ/WOW tab-target core gameplay interaction experience...
...making all the assets for a mmorpg is simply too much money for simply inferior results: Skyrim et al look much better than mmorpgs do. Chivalry, Medieval or Vermintide style butchering combat looks tons loads more fun than tab-target server-limited combat.
World Of Darkness spent about 90m$ on assets for almost ZERO "game", to compare this mistake that so many mmorpgs seem to make.
I've played a few mmorpgs and they all promised huge armies and battles, but the servers on implementation could not deliver. That was always a big worry for PFO. With so much of it's design hinging on the grand sweep of scale of a huge fantasy world full of battling kingdoms...
It's disappointing, but realistic to fully expect PFO to shut down soon. Slowly turning off the life-support is the kindly way to "say good-bye". Most of what remains is those costly assets and very little of the actual GDD concept of the actual vision of the game. This must be mmorpg dev critical mistake Number 1??
Still think the GDD has lots of merit, although it could do with some wholesale changes based off working upwards from 1.->...
... Got to admit, I think PFO's GDD got 1. almost spot on with player-run settlements built around an economy and division of labour. That idea has currency for the future. The bit that really threw a spanner into the works was out of the KS pledgers, 80+% appear to be Paizo fans after the IP loot and not interested in the mmorpg at all. A big part of that problem seems to be the actual game-play of this type of "classic mmorpg model" as per EQ/WOW tab-target core gameplay interaction experience... ...
You are a bit unfair to the Pathfinder (P&P) fans there, that people wanted to recognize the IP doesn't actually mean they want it to be just like WoW at all. A open world version of DDO would be closer but you can very well make a sandbox game that really have a gameworld nailed down, The Elder scrolls games have done it since Daggerfall.
It is not a question about tab targetting or quests, it is the matter that the MMO only were similar to the Pathfinder world in name.
And we already have another example that this don't work: WAR. And WAR actually at least got Altdorf right (really nothing else). WAR failed a lot due to the fact that the Warhammer fantasy RPG fans couldn't recognize their game and Pathfinder got the same problem.
I play the Pathfinder P&P game and I certainly don't want another Wow with lower budget but I expect a game named "Pathfinder Online" to actually be a bit like the P&P game. And there is nothing saying that you need to have autotab combat there and having a rogue is actually more important than a healer. Combat wise having collision detection (on the weapon and body like AoC) instead of tab targetting actually would be just as close if not closer to the original
You make the assumption that if someone isn't happy with a different game they just want Wow but that is unfair. Pathfinder (P&P) is nothing like Wow but neither is it anything like PFO. If you don't want a game that is like the IP why bother with it from the start? To me that seems more like a cashgrab to get the PF fans to support you.
I am still impressed how much they actually made for the minimal money they had but even if they had the $80M that WAR had it wouldn't have worked very well, they just choose the wrong IP.
... Got to admit, I think PFO's GDD got 1. almost spot on with player-run settlements built around an economy and division of labour. That idea has currency for the future. The bit that really threw a spanner into the works was out of the KS pledgers, 80+% appear to be Paizo fans after the IP loot and not interested in the mmorpg at all. A big part of that problem seems to be the actual game-play of this type of "classic mmorpg model" as per EQ/WOW tab-target core gameplay interaction experience... ...
You are a bit unfair to the Pathfinder (P&P) fans there, that people wanted to recognize the IP doesn't actually mean they want it to be just like WoW at all. A open world version of DDO would be closer but you can very well make a sandbox game that really have a gameworld nailed down, The Elder scrolls games have done it since Daggerfall.
It is not a question about tab targetting or quests, it is the matter that the MMO only were similar to the Pathfinder world in name.
And we already have another example that this don't work: WAR. And WAR actually at least got Altdorf right (really nothing else). WAR failed a lot due to the fact that the Warhammer fantasy RPG fans couldn't recognize their game and Pathfinder got the same problem.
I play the Pathfinder P&P game and I certainly don't want another Wow with lower budget but I expect a game named "Pathfinder Online" to actually be a bit like the P&P game. And there is nothing saying that you need to have autotab combat there and having a rogue is actually more important than a healer. Combat wise having collision detection (on the weapon and body like AoC) instead of tab targetting actually would be just as close if not closer to the original
You make the assumption that if someone isn't happy with a different game they just want Wow but that is unfair. Pathfinder (P&P) is nothing like Wow but neither is it anything like PFO. If you don't want a game that is like the IP why bother with it from the start? To me that seems more like a cashgrab to get the PF fans to support you.
I am still impressed how much they actually made for the minimal money they had but even if they had the $80M that WAR had it wouldn't have worked very well, they just choose the wrong IP.
First of all, acknowledgements where they are due, Loke. I keep tabs on what people say and you always said, with PFO that interesting design but the dev team did not hold sufficient experience to cut it in your book. Your prediction proved correct and provides subequent rigour to your opinion, given prediction is one of the best tests of reliability. Credit where credit is duly paid.
I backed PFO because of the GDD, but I always had forboding about HOW to implement but conceded to "those with greater know-how about such complicated and demanding work in the mmorpg industry". In the paizo forums I enquired a few times concerning:-
* WOW perspective or 3rd person over the shoulder avatar representation * Tab-Target Combat
Now the reason I felt uneasy about these right at the start of 2012 around Jan-Feb, was that I really wanted to see the GDD doc IN THE GAME asap. Instead, I knew enough about mmorpg dev that building all the above takes years. The bones let alone any actual game. I knew from WOW perspective how much that boosted the asset quantity and even as essential as proved from people's reactions quality at this scale of representation of avatar and world. I thought this route was in direct contradiction to the huge huge demands of a single-server shard with 100's of avatars in same persistent space interacting, for example EVE has the benefit of space and not rendering the "world". So that was the first big worry.
The next was tab-target combat, because I knew from following GW2 how incredibly difficult it is to get the combat system going to such quality that players like it, and if you go for WOW 3rd person perspective you have a large complex animated avatar that then needs incredibly well-synced and well-balanced combat for the core fun of the game which will be combat.
Already before end of 2012 I was inwardly worried this work-load was huge BEFORE the actual "expanding the horizons" of the genre GDD would even be implemented.
Now I did ellide what I said above, which was a mistake which you spotted:-
What I meant, was already PF during KS did not have it's core IP audience's attention. More to do with the PvP. Then as well as that, the above problems, then I build that argument to my favourite hobby horse what I call the "WOW Experience MMORPGs" or "WOW Engine" after Bartle. For 2 reasons:-
1. WOW is renowned as having the best combat animations and solid combat coding 2. MUDs copied each other's general engine and the result was the same generic feeling.
Ie what I'm saying is I could play any of:-
WOW, WAR, PFO, GW2 and they all feel like the first time I played, same feeling: Big avatar trundling around lazily swinging at things with a weapon as a health bar slowly declines. This is the major are for "fun". I did it for a few months and tbh the combat in mmorpgs just is not the draw.
It's the people, that is and what their collective actions can lead to!
<blockquote><i>I play the Pathfinder P&P game and I certainly don't want another
Wow with lower budget but I expect a game named "Pathfinder Online" to
actually be a bit like the P&P game</i></blockquote>
The P&P is great at getting a small group and seeing what their collective efforts arise to: The results are staggeringly high quality.
What I would propose I think is wonderfully innovative (lolz!) it's a complete system to complement the TT game and extend it using digital online means.
Guess I'll have to write this all up and post it... the good news is that it removes so much of the dead wood of the mmorpg genre development costs and very founding assumptions that create what I call "the wow experience" / "wow engine". To provide an indirect x2 tasters:-
To compare Star Citizen looks very different to me: FPS, Flight Sim, Planet Explorer type cruising around "what people might call open world game style". That comes across as a very different experience.
Likewise mmo- / mo- style games that make fantasy combat more visceral will imho feel much closer to a fantasy or medieval world where the prime gameplay is combat.
Right now I can see the mmorpg genre being the mmorpg genre with the standards working for the market. But I can see offshoots for new experiences possible. The higher visceral approach seems the more expensive one. Whereas working on things like:-
* Social interaction * Decision-Making * Story-telling
Those seem like a great fit for the PF TT community. What's interesting is that community has mahusive "buy-in" to the Paizo IP and resources they generate...
Yeah it's genuinely ESS AYCH EYE TEA that PFO has gone belly-up.
2. How do you implement that in the leanest way for the smallest budget?
World Of Darkness spent about 90m$ on assets for almost ZERO "game".
I don't see #2 as being a virtue and certainly not a selling point. If I ever see a developer using that as an argument for their game, I'd avoid it like the plague.
Would anyone buy a car if it's manufacturer used that same language?
The same goes for Minimum Viable Product. Now in the future gamers should see that phrase as meaning "an unfinished, steaming, pile of shit and we will charge you full price for it."
On the second point, didn't Ryan Dancey sabotage WOD by bad mouthing the project while he was still at CCP?
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
I agree with all the points about the problems with games but how exactly does Pathfinder fix anything? I only played the game one day but i saw nothing intriguing and it bored the heck out of me.
The only thing i need to add is on the subject of Sandbox games.They suffer mainly because you still need tools and these so called sandbox games do not have the tools.It is like entering a sandbox in the real world empty handed,you would accomplish nothing. Themepark is not a problem ,the problem is they are linear and FORCE you to ride the rides in a linear fashion with no other options.Just like in the real world,we enjoy a themepark but we are not forced into any direction ever.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I believe that the conclusion is that PFO DOES MATTER. It is a shining example of what not to do when making a game. People should look at the mistakes made, and try to avoid them. If they dont learn, they will have the same fate.
I believe that the conclusion is that PFO DOES MATTER. It is a shining example of what not to do when making a game. People should look at the mistakes made, and try to avoid them. If they dont learn, they will have the same fate.
Amen brother. Think I said something similar months ago when this drivel was originally posted, but kudos!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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I've taken a look at it (seen reviews and video, haven't played it. At first look it appears to be older game mechanics asking for modern AAA prices, imo.
Will wait and see how this comes out before I jump in and give it a go. Til then all the best for this game.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I've taken a look at it (seen reviews and video, haven't played it. At first look it appears to be older game mechanics asking for modern AAA prices, imo.
Will wait and see how this comes out before I jump in and give it a go. Til then all the best for this game.
"Wait to see how it comes out"... You will be happy to know, you missed the Titanic setting sail. But not the real Titanic, or even a close interpretation of one... You missed setting sail on the Minimum Viable Product of a ship, but still cost Luxury Liner prices.
Although I was holding out a small hope, I don't see the doors remaining open by October 1.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
I've taken a look at it (seen reviews and video, haven't played it. At first look it appears to be older game mechanics asking for modern AAA prices, imo.
Will wait and see how this comes out before I jump in and give it a go. Til then all the best for this game.
"Wait to see how it comes out"... You will be happy to know, you missed the Titanic setting sail. But not the real Titanic, or even a close interpretation of one... You missed setting sail on the Minimum Viable Product of a ship, but still cost Luxury Liner prices.
Although I was holding out a small hope, I don't see the doors remaining open by October 1.
You have lots of prepaid time into this, Bludd. You have a right to your opinions and I apologize for being a dick at any time that your current postings did not warrant a cheeky reply. I acknowledge that you were ultimately right on more than a few points (not that I much liked the delivery).
I am not sure that any announcements will be made before Oct. 1, but I think that you will be in for at least a cpl of nice surprises in the near future.
No more "BOX" fee. Free 15 day trials at: goblinworks.com/download/ Ozem's Vigil: The largest force for Holy Justice in the River Kingdoms. Are You Ready to Smite Evil? ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com
I've taken a look at it (seen reviews and video, haven't played it. At first look it appears to be older game mechanics asking for modern AAA prices, imo.
Will wait and see how this comes out before I jump in and give it a go. Til then all the best for this game.
"Wait to see how it comes out"... You will be happy to know, you missed the Titanic setting sail. But not the real Titanic, or even a close interpretation of one... You missed setting sail on the Minimum Viable Product of a ship, but still cost Luxury Liner prices.
Although I was holding out a small hope, I don't see the doors remaining open by October 1.
You have lots of prepaid time into this, Bludd. You have a right to your opinions and I apologize for being a dick at any time that your current postings did not warrant a cheeky reply. I acknowledge that you were ultimately right on more than a few points (not that I much liked the delivery).
I am not sure that any announcements will be made before Oct. 1, but I think that you will be in for at least a cpl of nice surprises in the near future.
Annnnd.... it's still here. Playtesting uber patch 11 right now.
No more "BOX" fee. Free 15 day trials at: goblinworks.com/download/ Ozem's Vigil: The largest force for Holy Justice in the River Kingdoms. Are You Ready to Smite Evil? ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com
Paying to be game testers and now subscribing to be game testers and game promoters. Never thought I'd see the day. But people are doing it and if that's their form of entertainment then so be it, enjoy. I guess it's like cheering for your favorite sports team.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Annnnd.... it's still here. Playtesting uber patch 11 right now.
We'll just take your word on it's uberness. Have fun.
By Uber, I mean large. I have no idea if it is "uber great" yet.
Will admit to being hopeful that is uber great.
No more "BOX" fee. Free 15 day trials at: goblinworks.com/download/ Ozem's Vigil: The largest force for Holy Justice in the River Kingdoms. Are You Ready to Smite Evil? ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com
If I understand the features of the patch correctly, we get the privilege of having our settlements torn down and then we can grind away and rebuild them. I'm not sure how that is a real selling point to attract new players, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Also Lisa Stevens has mentioned that there are some talks of a potential new investor. This of course is good news if it happens, but it is likely and hopeful that they look to revamp or even scrap much of what the game is already.
Obsolete game engine, is obsolete.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
If I understand the features of the patch correctly, we get the privilege of having our settlements torn down and then we can grind away and rebuild them. I'm not sure how that is a real selling point to attract new players, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Also Lisa Stevens has mentioned that there are some talks of a potential new investor. This of course is good news if it happens, but it is likely and hopeful that they look to revamp or even scrap much of what the game is already.
Obsolete game engine, is obsolete.
Misinformed again, Bludd. All the settlements have been given many choices of pre made building kits that we will place when EE11 gets published. We have also (those that play) been doing PVE to get our own recipes and even trading between settlements. We will soon be able to make the settlements much more unique than the start choices we had. Lots of new looking buildings. The settlement areas are also very much more cool looking now (on the test server).
A few ppl have commented that it would have been much more fun to start from scratch like pioneers. It didn't seem to gain much player traction.
Any new investors, especially outright game company investors will probably change what they thnk they need to but Paizo (so far) has final say as the licensor of PfO. Lisa did say that they came to her. That they are fans of the original concept. That they have played the game. That they have money AND a larger experienced Dev/programming team. I am pretty sure that they WILL make changes. We will have to see what, when/if a deal goes through.
I know that YOU know all this because you have commented in the thread discussion about it.
No more "BOX" fee. Free 15 day trials at: goblinworks.com/download/ Ozem's Vigil: The largest force for Holy Justice in the River Kingdoms. Are You Ready to Smite Evil? ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com
On the first part, I was correct for those that were happy with their original choice. There will be virtually no change. That means no content change in my opinion.
The second point, you have added details that I was not aware of. It is good that they approached Paizo, and not the other way around. But, the "original vision" part is a bit concerning. The original vision was not capable of attracting a viable amount of subscribers.
There are two original visions, what was written in the old Dev blogs and what is in the game now. The Dev Blog's were different and better in my opinion. What we have now is a proven loser, numbers don't lie.
However, the 500 pound gorilla in the room, which you failed to mention, is the game engine. Unity 4 is obsolete. It's capacity was reached in 2011, if we are generous. If PFO is going to survive into the future, it must upgrade to a new engine.
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So how long do you think before the game is bug free and ready for a flood of new players? How long has the game been out already? Why should I consider starting this game when it will already be populated by veterans? People are not really interested in joining eve online at this point because the nature of the game and the amount of time many other people have already invested, they would have joined at the start if the start was today, why would I want to start a game when it goes live that already has a large population of people who are already "endgame" or set up in the world?
Ive heard the dev made a joke about selling skill points via the game store to allow people to buy the points they need to catch up. Im also aware that this game has a cash shop founders program and monthly sub but isnt even in open beta yet? What makes you think this type of payment model from a company is one we should support? WoW or FF or SWTOR or Eve or any number of games already offer a complete game for your sub, why should we choose this one, and to support what many people would see as a questionable sub/payment model. It really appears to me that this game is just trying to make as much money as it can before it dies, why am I wrong for thinking that?
Im really not trying to be rude about this either, I really am interested in hearing from the people that care about this game, why am I wrong for hating on it, Im willing to listen and change my mind, especially if I am wrong, but everything I have seen so far says im right... Most importantly why join a time based game that isnt gonna get a restart before launch?
Hi Jaxome, and thanks for your questions:
1. When will the game be ready? My short answer, best guess is late fall/early winter. The issue isn't really bugs--there have been a couple significant bugs, but relatively few from my experience. The issue is more about the quality of graphics, amount of art assets, and completeness of features. There's only four classes in, and three races, and until some decent chunk of Paladins/Barbarians/Rangers/Druids/Sorcerers/Bards and gnomes/halflings are in, you're still in very early development. And while there are basic systems for settlement warfare and territory capture are in, and and getting fleshed out more and more all the time, it still has a way to go. If you want a feature complete game, you need to wait.
2. I never got the "why would I play if someone else is more powerful than me" concern, but I have heard it from enough people to recognize it is a real concern to some people. It may help to know that if new players are valuable to settlements: just joining mechanically helps the settlement, every activity from new players helps the settlement, and in a month or two you would be advanced enough in a single thing to contribute at a higher level. The difference is that while you can get to be a good enough wizard/fighter/cleric/rogue in a couple months to run with the big boys, the big boys also have stealth trained, have gathering skills trained, have a backup role (e.g. can swap from fighter to a backup healer). If that is something you can't live with, I can understand, and then PFO wouldn't be a good choice for you.
3. There's no "endgame" like in WoW or EQ. We will likely be fighting each other, and vying for power against other social groups, for a long time. Even after 2-3 years and I've maxed out cleric levels, I can then start maxing out wizard levels for a couple years.
4. There is a cash shop. The only item from it people have purchased is pretty so-so: a small personal building that is much less valuable than the one you can build in game. If they want to sell a few convenience items or cosmetics in the cash shop, fine by me--if they changed their policy and made the cash shop a cash grab ptw, I'd quit the game. You may have misunderstand the dev btw--the goal is to be able to pay for training either through money (your sub) or through in-game cash (like PLEX in EVE).
5. The only reason I can think of to join a game with steady power advancement over time is: because it's fun. We have a lot of new players in our settlement, and I think they enjoy playing because the game is fun. Killing monsters, and using the materials from that, along with gathered resources, to help our crafters make nice gear, and then using that gear to better protect our settlement from evil groups trying to rob us, and also being better able to do PvE, is fun. It's satisfying as we build up our holdings and outposts, and make our settlement more powerful. It's challenging--we recently had to move our crafting companies from our settlement over to another town to try and boost both settlements' crafting power, so there was a social/mechanical porblem to solve to get more powerful. We like having allies like the Buttonmakers of Alderwag, and the loyal and reliable dwarves of Forgeholm. And we are pledged against the Golgotha with every fiber of our being. If that sounds boring, then this game would be boring to you.
Thanks for the good questions and I hope my answers are helpful!
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One other thing Jaxome:
The steady release of updates is also relevant to your question. There's been 9 updates, they come out regularly, and each one has been substantial and improved the game in important ways. The devs promised that while the game was minimal at release, they would continually improve, and the fact that they have consistently honored that promise matters to me.
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Considering its failure, the gaming industry can now see what crossed a line and lead to a very rapid failure.
Lessons Learned (Hopefully):
1. If you don't have at least AA financing, don't try to develop an MMO on a shoe-string budget.
2. Don't try to use an out of date gaming engine to develop a game that will have to compete against games being made using engines that have room for growth.
3. Don't expect many to buy into a ridiculous "money grab" scheme of box price + subscription + cash shop
4. Develop the game in a sequence that makes sense. New Player Experience comes before End Game content, I would have thought that is common sense.
5. Don't play stupid word games with what state the game is actually in. If it is Alpha, or Beta, say it is. If you're too embarrassed to admit that you're charging a subscription fee for an unfinished project, than don't charge a subscription fee. Arguing it was not in Alpha or Beta just made you look like an ass and forced the review that was going to go badly.
6. STFU when you are doing more damage to your product than you are helping. People with titles tend to forget this.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Gee, where did all the PFO fanbois run to?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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1. What creates a fun community of players in a virtual world?
2. How do you implement that in the leanest way for the smallest budget?
3. What size of player organizational units works best for both 1. and 2.?
4. What keeps players coming back again and again for "one more hit"?
5. Equally what is the opposite to that, "aversive" reactions?
Got to admit, I think PFO's GDD got 1. almost spot on with player-run settlements built around an economy and division of labour. That idea has currency for the future. The bit that really threw a spanner into the works was out of the KS pledgers, 80+% appear to be Paizo fans after the IP loot and not interested in the mmorpg at all. A big part of that problem seems to be the actual game-play of this type of "classic mmorpg model" as per EQ/WOW tab-target core gameplay interaction experience...
...making all the assets for a mmorpg is simply too much money for simply inferior results: Skyrim et al look much better than mmorpgs do. Chivalry, Medieval or Vermintide style butchering combat looks tons loads more fun than tab-target server-limited combat.
World Of Darkness spent about 90m$ on assets for almost ZERO "game", to compare this mistake that so many mmorpgs seem to make.
I've played a few mmorpgs and they all promised huge armies and battles, but the servers on implementation could not deliver. That was always a big worry for PFO. With so much of it's design hinging on the grand sweep of scale of a huge fantasy world full of battling kingdoms...
It's disappointing, but realistic to fully expect PFO to shut down soon. Slowly turning off the life-support is the kindly way to "say good-bye". Most of what remains is those costly assets and very little of the actual GDD concept of the actual vision of the game. This must be mmorpg dev critical mistake Number 1??
Still think the GDD has lots of merit, although it could do with some wholesale changes based off working upwards from 1.->...
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
It is not a question about tab targetting or quests, it is the matter that the MMO only were similar to the Pathfinder world in name.
And we already have another example that this don't work: WAR. And WAR actually at least got Altdorf right (really nothing else). WAR failed a lot due to the fact that the Warhammer fantasy RPG fans couldn't recognize their game and Pathfinder got the same problem.
I play the Pathfinder P&P game and I certainly don't want another Wow with lower budget but I expect a game named "Pathfinder Online" to actually be a bit like the P&P game. And there is nothing saying that you need to have autotab combat there and having a rogue is actually more important than a healer.
Combat wise having collision detection (on the weapon and body like AoC) instead of tab targetting actually would be just as close if not closer to the original
You make the assumption that if someone isn't happy with a different game they just want Wow but that is unfair. Pathfinder (P&P) is nothing like Wow but neither is it anything like PFO. If you don't want a game that is like the IP why bother with it from the start? To me that seems more like a cashgrab to get the PF fans to support you.
I am still impressed how much they actually made for the minimal money they had but even if they had the $80M that WAR had it wouldn't have worked very well, they just choose the wrong IP.
I backed PFO because of the GDD, but I always had forboding about HOW to implement but conceded to "those with greater know-how about such complicated and demanding work in the mmorpg industry". In the paizo forums I enquired a few times concerning:-
* WOW perspective or 3rd person over the shoulder avatar representation
* Tab-Target Combat
Now the reason I felt uneasy about these right at the start of 2012 around Jan-Feb, was that I really wanted to see the GDD doc IN THE GAME asap. Instead, I knew enough about mmorpg dev that building all the above takes years. The bones let alone any actual game. I knew from WOW perspective how much that boosted the asset quantity and even as essential as proved from people's reactions quality at this scale of representation of avatar and world. I thought this route was in direct contradiction to the huge huge demands of a single-server shard with 100's of avatars in same persistent space interacting, for example EVE has the benefit of space and not rendering the "world". So that was the first big worry.
The next was tab-target combat, because I knew from following GW2 how incredibly difficult it is to get the combat system going to such quality that players like it, and if you go for WOW 3rd person perspective you have a large complex animated avatar that then needs incredibly well-synced and well-balanced combat for the core fun of the game which will be combat.
Already before end of 2012 I was inwardly worried this work-load was huge BEFORE the actual "expanding the horizons" of the genre GDD would even be implemented.
Now I did ellide what I said above, which was a mistake which you spotted:-
Tab-target WOW style mmorpg =/= TT PF players want.
What I meant, was already PF during KS did not have it's core IP audience's attention. More to do with the PvP. Then as well as that, the above problems, then I build that argument to my favourite hobby horse what I call the "WOW Experience MMORPGs" or "WOW Engine" after Bartle. For 2 reasons:-
1. WOW is renowned as having the best combat animations and solid combat coding
2. MUDs copied each other's general engine and the result was the same generic feeling.
Ie what I'm saying is I could play any of:-
WOW, WAR, PFO, GW2 and they all feel like the first time I played, same feeling: Big avatar trundling around lazily swinging at things with a weapon as a health bar slowly declines. This is the major are for "fun". I did it for a few months and tbh the combat in mmorpgs just is not the draw.
It's the people, that is and what their collective actions can lead to!
<blockquote><i>I play the Pathfinder P&P game and I certainly don't want another Wow with lower budget but I expect a game named "Pathfinder Online" to actually be a bit like the P&P game</i></blockquote>
The P&P is great at getting a small group and seeing what their collective efforts arise to: The results are staggeringly high quality.
What I would propose I think is wonderfully innovative (lolz!) it's a complete system to complement the TT game and extend it using digital online means.
Guess I'll have to write this all up and post it... the good news is that it removes so much of the dead wood of the mmorpg genre development costs and very founding assumptions that create what I call "the wow experience" / "wow engine". To provide an indirect x2 tasters:-
To compare Star Citizen looks very different to me: FPS, Flight Sim, Planet Explorer type cruising around "what people might call open world game style". That comes across as a very different experience.
Likewise mmo- / mo- style games that make fantasy combat more visceral will imho feel much closer to a fantasy or medieval world where the prime gameplay is combat.
Right now I can see the mmorpg genre being the mmorpg genre with the standards working for the market. But I can see offshoots for new experiences possible. The higher visceral approach seems the more expensive one. Whereas working on things like:-
* Social interaction
* Decision-Making
* Story-telling
Those seem like a great fit for the PF TT community. What's interesting is that community has mahusive "buy-in" to the Paizo IP and resources they generate...
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
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Would anyone buy a car if it's manufacturer used that same language?
The same goes for Minimum Viable Product. Now in the future gamers should see that phrase as meaning "an unfinished, steaming, pile of shit and we will charge you full price for it."
On the second point, didn't Ryan Dancey sabotage WOD by bad mouthing the project while he was still at CCP?
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I only played the game one day but i saw nothing intriguing and it bored the heck out of me.
The only thing i need to add is on the subject of Sandbox games.They suffer mainly because you still need tools and these so called sandbox games do not have the tools.It is like entering a sandbox in the real world empty handed,you would accomplish nothing.
Themepark is not a problem ,the problem is they are linear and FORCE you to ride the rides in a linear fashion with no other options.Just like in the real world,we enjoy a themepark but we are not forced into any direction ever.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Will wait and see how this comes out before I jump in and give it a go. Til then all the best for this game.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Although I was holding out a small hope, I don't see the doors remaining open by October 1.
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You have lots of prepaid time into this, Bludd. You have a right to your opinions and I apologize for being a dick at any time that your current postings did not warrant a cheeky reply. I acknowledge that you were ultimately right on more than a few points (not that I much liked the delivery).
I am not sure that any announcements will be made before Oct. 1, but I think that you will be in for at least a cpl of nice surprises in the near future.
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Annnnd.... it's still here. Playtesting uber patch 11 right now.
No more "BOX" fee. Free 15 day trials at: goblinworks.com/download/
Ozem's Vigil: The largest force for Holy Justice in the River Kingdoms.
Are You Ready to Smite Evil?
ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
By Uber, I mean large. I have no idea if it is "uber great" yet.
Will admit to being hopeful that is uber great.
No more "BOX" fee. Free 15 day trials at: goblinworks.com/download/
Ozem's Vigil: The largest force for Holy Justice in the River Kingdoms.
Are You Ready to Smite Evil?
ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com
Also Lisa Stevens has mentioned that there are some talks of a potential new investor. This of course is good news if it happens, but it is likely and hopeful that they look to revamp or even scrap much of what the game is already.
Obsolete game engine, is obsolete.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
Misinformed again, Bludd. All the settlements have been given many choices of pre made building kits that we will place when EE11 gets published. We have also (those that play) been doing PVE to get our own recipes and even trading between settlements. We will soon be able to make the settlements much more unique than the start choices we had. Lots of new looking buildings. The settlement areas are also very much more cool looking now (on the test server).
A few ppl have commented that it would have been much more fun to start from scratch like pioneers. It didn't seem to gain much player traction.
Any new investors, especially outright game company investors will probably change what they thnk they need to but Paizo (so far) has final say as the licensor of PfO. Lisa did say that they came to her. That they are fans of the original concept. That they have played the game. That they have money AND a larger experienced Dev/programming team. I am pretty sure that they WILL make changes. We will have to see what, when/if a deal goes through.
I know that YOU know all this because you have commented in the thread discussion about it.
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Ozem's Vigil: The largest force for Holy Justice in the River Kingdoms.
Are You Ready to Smite Evil?
ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com
The second point, you have added details that I was not aware of. It is good that they approached Paizo, and not the other way around. But, the "original vision" part is a bit concerning. The original vision was not capable of attracting a viable amount of subscribers.
There are two original visions, what was written in the old Dev blogs and what is in the game now. The Dev Blog's were different and better in my opinion. What we have now is a proven loser, numbers don't lie.
However, the 500 pound gorilla in the room, which you failed to mention, is the game engine. Unity 4 is obsolete. It's capacity was reached in 2011, if we are generous. If PFO is going to survive into the future, it must upgrade to a new engine.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....