Originally posted by JohnP0100 I am continually amazed that people care this much on what I spend my money on.
Stop it with the exaggeration. I doubt people care if you were to spend your money on a a refrigerator, or a toasters, or any of a myriad of other products. They do care when your expenditure impacts the game they are playing. After all, game play is all about competition, is it not? In that regard, we all aspire to play on an equal level. Unless, of course, you are looking for an edge on that competition?
hmm ... see what I did there?
It's not about competition. It's about making money. If we all want an equal, they we should expect to pay to play on that level. If we don't want to pay, we can try the million of free thing for sale in this world we live in.
No one is talking about not wanting to pay. This thread is about P2W cash shops. It is not about people not wanting to pay. We can easily go to subscription based games that would require players to pay without a P2W cash shop. I hope I've cleared things up for you a little.
I quote from earlier in this thread, "A good balance gives free players a very good, playable game" You are either lying to me or your self. P2W is everything to do with with people not wanting to pay for gaming. Most subscriptions game come under attack by P4F gamers as soon as the model is disclosed. Cries of the game should be, or this game will be F2P. When a game dose go F2P the roar of victory if deafening. So no we can't go to sub games w/o cash P2w shop, because P4F gamers won't allow a P2P game to live (Even a good one).
You didn't even try clear things up, you tried to hide the fact that P4F gamers are possibly the greatest threat to gaming. I had a job in gaming. But someone looked around and realized that gamers don'y want to pay for gaming any more. As more people come to the same conclusion, less games will be made. Those games that are made will be P2W with a BFG.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Originally posted by LordZeik Out of curiosity Konfess how do you feel about pay to play games?
Equal curiosity, how would you feel about not getting paid for what ever it is you do?
p2p and b2p with a cosmetic cash shop are the superior ways to go. F2p 90% of the time is a system where throwing large amounts of money at the game makes you superior. As opposed to putting time into the game and learning your class. Now someone who puts both large amounts of time and money into a game can often cause an imbalance in the system. Your solution to that is have people leave? My solution to that is have them play a game with a safer business model (b2p in this case not p2p)
Take the gold system in albion. You can use it for premium and cosmetics however you can also trade it to other players for silver (based on a very complex formula that takes into account the global silver and gold supply). Everyone wins in this case
The company - just got money for a free to play game, letting them hire staff to stop hackers, run events, do updates, etc
The person who bought the gold with real money - just got a bunch of silver for minimal effort
The person who bought that gold with silver- just got the ability to buy premium or other cosmetics for free
The crafter - just got an order from the real world money buyer for a rare item and can now sell THAT silver for gold to get a premium account
The PvPer- just got that item off the newb who bought rare gear and ran into a PvP zone
Everyone wins in this case, out of all the F2P games systems, this is by far the best option for companies that want to make a profit while being fair to players. Even better this also seems to be the path that most major F2P games are taking
As I know of only Firefall does this at the moment and it's not full loot PvP otherwise I find it'd work completely. Do you know any specific titles?
Ofcourse I find the gameplay enticing so my judgement must be clouded, biased.
"They have the next most frustrating model after P2W and freemium and that's combination of overpriced packs that circumvent premium currency to grab more money showing backside to those who already prepaid. And of course there is also gambling, your only source of vanity because conventional store is put on side track.
Thing is yes, you can play for free and have playable content available to you. But you also want to purchase something you like, but you can't because you are walled off by these ridiculous mechanics. They go against people who'd like to put money on something specific or already paid in the past, that is hardly "great way"."
Is an arguement i've heard before to that kind of monetization. In this case there are gliders implented which you can buy whilst the game has jetpacks as movement. The world has changed in such a way a glider becomes neccesity or the game starts to feel slow.
Not having blatant cash grabs where you redesign basic game play mechanics and then force players to pay $100 dollars to adjust to an enforced change.
Still i'd rather buy it off a player who bought it from a store Then a random guy on the internet who farmed it all day with bots.
I honestly think this debate is in need of the clarification of what some people consider pay 2 win. There are games labeled as pay to win simply because they make certain mechanics like leveling or crafting faster.
For a game to be pay to win one has to sit down and ask "win what?". In regards to say a primarily PVE enviroment can pay to win be intrinsically bad. "Ohh that person paid and got stuff that took me awhile to get" isn't a valid argument in the day and age of the more casual MMORPG player that WoW has caused to spring up. Mechanics and gears and buffs that only affect the PVE experience are a complete and utter non argument if there is a cash shop offering gear otherwise it's basically just people whining that the casual player wanted to be on par with people that can invest more time in the game in PVE.
Now we can bring up the argument that pay 2 win is a complete and utter problem in PVP related things (assuming PVP gear/Buffs that carry over to PVP etc) Pay 2 Win in this realm can be dangerous in that many games focus on the rather crappy mechanic of a gear based PVP that has actual gear progression (many are removing the PVP stats and stuff from gear now but the fact that there is gear involved period yeah).
If you run into gear in a PVP scenario that is more powerful than you can find in game (let's face it microtransaction that let you get ahold of gear earlier than you would otherwise, that is still attainable at a reasonable rate in game are not BAD, again i chalk this mentality that it is the root of all evil to whiners who want to feel accomplishments)
Even then I view things in a manner that most never really bring to the forefront of this argument. It's always an all or nothing approach to them and they do not want to seem to grasp the concept that microtransactions involving gear, stat buffs (potions that buff stats not perm ones obviously) are not bad on their own, but more or less how they work out when doing PVP related things (for the record I think gear based progression PVP is annoying as hell and makes PVP woefully unbalanced because many are not on equal footing)
The whole argument should come down to is P2W affecting PVP right or wrong and then the answer is it is wrong. It shouldn't be if microtransactions that sell gear, potion based stat buffs, and general ease items are bad as a whole (this is largely what the majority of people want to label as P2W)
Also a final question and something to think about in general. Who is the latter hurting really? Who does microtransactions that sell gear, potion based stat buffs, and general ease items really hurting in a primarily PVE based environment . If kept in check and stat buffs can't be applied to PVP and you can't buy armor you can't get in game I would like an honest answer of who it is negatively impacting in a way that actually affects something other than someone's pride in having earned that item someone else can buy.
Originally posted by JohnP0100 I am continually amazed that people care this much on what I spend my money on.
Stop it with the exaggeration. I doubt people care if you were to spend your money on a a refrigerator, or a toasters, or any of a myriad of other products. They do care when your expenditure impacts the game they are playing. After all, game play is all about competition, is it not? In that regard, we all aspire to play on an equal level. Unless, of course, you are looking for an edge on that competition?
hmm ... see what I did there?
It's not about competition. It's about making money. If we all want an equal, they we should expect to pay to play on that level. If we don't want to pay, we can try the million of free thing for sale in this world we live in.
No one is talking about not wanting to pay. This thread is about P2W cash shops. It is not about people not wanting to pay. We can easily go to subscription based games that would require players to pay without a P2W cash shop. I hope I've cleared things up for you a little.
I quote from earlier in this thread, "A good balance gives free players a very good, playable game" You are either lying to me or your self. P2W is everything to do with with people not wanting to pay for gaming. Most subscriptions game come under attack by P4F gamers as soon as the model is disclosed. Cries of the game should be, or this game will be F2P. When a game dose go F2P the roar of victory if deafening. So no we can't go to sub games w/o cash P2w shop, because P4F gamers won't allow a P2P game to live (Even a good one).
You didn't even try clear things up, you tried to hide the fact that P4F gamers are possibly the greatest threat to gaming. I had a job in gaming. But someone looked around and realized that gamers don'y want to pay for gaming any more. As more people come to the same conclusion, less games will be made. Those games that are made will be P2W with a BFG.
Why are you even talking about F2P games to me? Your post is chock full of assumptions. I tried to hide nothing. I did not even mention the word F2P. Did you even read my post? There is nothing in my post about F2P players, or F2P games. My post is about my being against P2W cash shops. Common sense will tell you that there is a mighty good chance that if I am against P2W cash shops, I am against F2P games. Quit rambling. You are making no sense.
I honestly think this debate is in need of the clarification of what some people consider pay 2 win. There are games labeled as pay to win simply because they make certain mechanics like leveling or crafting faster.
-snip-
The game itself for all that could be involved from PvE, PvP, skilling and crafting itself.
I usually make the comparison to Farmville when I hear this. Yes, you can wait for days and weeks or you can press a button and pay.
Rapid progression from the start and then you hit the wall.
Originally posted by slickbizzle I have more money than time. If I can save months upon months of repetitive grinding by paying a small fee, I see no problem with it. I may be a wrecking force starting out, but the people that chose to grind it out will eventually catch up.
i dont see any problem with that. You are paying many small fees on experience potions to level up faster and have less grind. That is not pay to win. You are not winning anything by hitting max level in 3 days by paying money and i am not losing anything by hitting max level in 8 months without paying money and keeping the grind at a minimum.
Grinding for levels is a bad as grinding for gear, but at least leveling gives a sense of character progression. When all my characters hit max level i beat the mmo and its time to move on. Thats why i take my sweet time leveling without exp pots and without grinding. But some mmos hit you in the face with a ridiculously slow exp rate to force exp pot purchases. I dont play those games. I rather pay for more useful things like bank slots.
The overall problem is that a lot of people say ease of use items are still P2W.. People griped about the potions in Archeage that would let you craft more often faster (that anyone could buy on the auction house as players sold them frequently) as a P2W item as a for instance even though that is purely a ease of use. Same with the crystals they had that improved your chance of going up to a higher tier or whatever when doing something.
I honestly think this debate is in need of the clarification of what some people consider pay 2 win. There are games labeled as pay to win simply because they make certain mechanics like leveling or crafting faster.
For a game to be pay to win one has to sit down and ask "win what?". In regards to say a primarily PVE enviroment can pay to win be intrinsically bad. "Ohh that person paid and got stuff that took me awhile to get" isn't a valid argument in the day and age of the more casual MMORPG player that WoW has caused to spring up. Mechanics and gears and buffs that only affect the PVE experience are a complete and utter non argument if there is a cash shop offering gear otherwise it's basically just people whining that the casual player wanted to be on par with people that can invest more time in the game in PVE.
Now we can bring up the argument that pay 2 win is a complete and utter problem in PVP related things (assuming PVP gear/Buffs that carry over to PVP etc) Pay 2 Win in this realm can be dangerous in that many games focus on the rather crappy mechanic of a gear based PVP that has actual gear progression (many are removing the PVP stats and stuff from gear now but the fact that there is gear involved period yeah).
If you run into gear in a PVP scenario that is more powerful than you can find in game (let's face it microtransaction that let you get ahold of gear earlier than you would otherwise, that is still attainable at a reasonable rate in game are not BAD, again i chalk this mentality that it is the root of all evil to whiners who want to feel accomplishments)
Even then I view things in a manner that most never really bring to the forefront of this argument. It's always an all or nothing approach to them and they do not want to seem to grasp the concept that microtransactions involving gear, stat buffs (potions that buff stats not perm ones obviously) are not bad on their own, but more or less how they work out when doing PVP related things (for the record I think gear based progression PVP is annoying as hell and makes PVP woefully unbalanced because many are not on equal footing)
The whole argument should come down to is P2W affecting PVP right or wrong and then the answer is it is wrong. It shouldn't be if microtransactions that sell gear, potion based stat buffs, and general ease items are bad as a whole (this is largely what the majority of people want to label as P2W)
Also a final question and something to think about in general. Who is the latter hurting really? Who does microtransactions that sell gear, potion based stat buffs, and general ease items really hurting in a primarily PVE based environment . If kept in check and stat buffs can't be applied to PVP and you can't buy armor you can't get in game I would like an honest answer of who it is negatively impacting in a way that actually affects something other than someone's pride in having earned that item someone else can buy.
The game itself for all that could be involved from PvE, PvP, skilling and crafting itself.
I usually make the comparison to Farmville when I hear this. Yes, you can wait for days and weeks or you can press a button and pay.
Rapid progression from the start and then you hit the wall.
My argument really comes down to the fact that we seem to define pay to win in regards to asinine things. Unless it negatively affects PVP it isn't really a "pay to win" scenario and more just an ease thing, Though the said bought items should not be sellable (as that will ruin thing economically speaking) Most games never put a focus on crafting (if this was done make sure the gear they can buy is only drop gear and not crafted. ie if crafted gear is better) .
People / players seem to want to define P2W as anything that is non cosmetic/mount based. I'd rather see a system that allows for microtransaction with gear and the like done appropriately, but you will get people whining that anything non cosmetic is pay to win even if a game was purely a pve based game.
Big difference from "ACCEPT IT" and support it.I might accept it has a foothold in the industry but i will never support it,they get not one red penny form me.
So they can go around and try and market their lame product,they will still get a lot of flack and negative comments for running such a model.We have NEVER liked unfair advantages in sport or life so to think it is ok in gaming is far from the truth.
The very sad reality is that a lot of people do not understand how doing anything unfair is cheating others and cheating themselves.The toughest for them to understand is the "cheating themselves",they will NEVER understand the word FUN because to them fun is ONLY winning.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Oh, and for all of you who are claiming you have more money than time so you would rather pay to achieve, the game is meant to be "played" to achieve not "pay" to achieve. There is a significant difference. I can never respect a player who needs to pay for what others have had to work for. Having no time is just an excuse for the lazy. If you have no time to do something the obvious solution is to not even begin doing it. In other words, don't start what you can't finish.
The only thing I'm trying to achieve is enjoyment from a game. I feel no sense of pride or honor if it took me 6 months to hit max level any more than if it takes me a week.
As far as being "lazy", I believe the payers and the grinders are both sitting in a chair and clicking on a mouse and keyboard. The laziness is pretty equal.
Nah people used to make extensive, multiple-pagelong guides on how to do things in a proficient manner or they shared their method of play / discovered alternative fun stuff.
I miss that.
But I get that you want to enjoy a game. That's why I buy games xD.
Oh, and for all of you who are claiming you have more money than time so you would rather pay to achieve, the game is meant to be "played" to achieve not "pay" to achieve. There is a significant difference. I can never respect a player who needs to pay for what others have had to work for. Having no time is just an excuse for the lazy. If you have no time to do something the obvious solution is to not even begin doing it. In other words, don't start what you can't finish.
The only thing I'm trying to achieve is enjoyment from a game. I feel no sense of pride or honor if it took me 6 months to hit max level any more than if it takes me a week.
As far as being "lazy", I believe the payers and the grinders are both sitting in a chair and clicking on a mouse and keyboard. The laziness is pretty equal.
so let me get this straight: you enjoy the game by not playing it? wut? your logic is kinda messed up ... well I guess you cant buy that eh?
P2W is just bad full stop for the average Joe who wants to be on an even playing field with everyone else. In-game deeds should always matter more than the size of your wallet but unfortunately this is not the case with P2W games.
This is the reason I tried Archeage and despite being an interesting mmo I walked away.
I honestly think this debate is in need of the clarification of what some people consider pay 2 win. There are games labeled as pay to win simply because they make certain mechanics like leveling or crafting faster.
-snip-
The game itself for all that could be involved from PvE, PvP, skilling and crafting itself.
I usually make the comparison to Farmville when I hear this. Yes, you can wait for days and weeks or you can press a button and pay.
Rapid progression from the start and then you hit the wall.
Thanks for the article. It's not too bad, actually. I felt he lost a bit of credibility with me when I suggested that everyone should use LoLs F2P model to be successful and achieve longevity, though. LoLs model is based on having a significant user base. You cannot survive using that model with a user base of a couple hundred thousand. Sorry. Also, I didn't mind the definition (below) from the article, but it introduces that ONE big problem with P2W definitions, and that is subjectivity. It says "...positively impacts the game experience..." but every game experience is different for ever user. I've adjusted it below:
If there are any unique purchases that provide statistical advantages (based on best in slot gear) compared to what can be earned in the game, and are only available with premium currency (aka real money), then the game is considered Pay to Win.
Oh, and for all of you who are claiming you have more money than time so you would rather pay to achieve, the game is meant to be "played" to achieve not "pay" to achieve. There is a significant difference. I can never respect a player who needs to pay for what others have had to work for. Having no time is just an excuse for the lazy. If you have no time to do something the obvious solution is to not even begin doing it. In other words, don't start what you can't finish.
The only thing I'm trying to achieve is enjoyment from a game. I feel no sense of pride or honor if it took me 6 months to hit max level any more than if it takes me a week.
As far as being "lazy", I believe the payers and the grinders are both sitting in a chair and clicking on a mouse and keyboard. The laziness is pretty equal.
so let me get this straight: you enjoy the game by not playing it? wut? your logic is kinda messed up ... well I guess you cant buy that eh?
I suppose it is, if all you got from my post is me saying that I enjoy not playing games.
the pay2win model is exactly this. imagine playing a game of basketball with 9 other ppl. give the ref some money, and your lack of skill or double dribble gets overlooked. you're paying to win the game when you dont have the time or dedication to win it like everyone else on an equal playing field.
get rid of this model. ive played practically every mmo on the market avaiable to me in the us, and sometimes hacking my way into games not available to me in the us since i was like 14. 18 years ago and counting. I quickly leave games the moment i realize the pay2win model exists. Ive even tried to overcome this model in some games, and made it to the point where im competeing with ppl that have clearly dumped THOUSANDS of dollars into games, when i tried to dump a few hundred dollars, and wasnt even 1-5th of the raw power output that some ppl were on. these models are HORRENDOUS
if you are paying 2 get to a playing field of endgame, but not paying to have somethign that nonpayers cannot get, then thats no problem. infact if i find out you paid to get to your position i will probably just make fun of you while i kick your ass.. but thats not a pay2win model. i dont mind the pay2advance model.
sure the pay2win model does generate a substantial income for the game makers, since they are usually offering you a play for free model of the game, but the model is completely focused on greed. its an embarassment to the real gaming community. the prime example here is any game that attacts real skilled players, real skilled communities, professional players, professional guilds, huge followings, will NEVER be pay2win models. NEVER..
My argument really comes down to the fact that we seem to define pay to win in regards to asinine things.
How will you ever understand another person's argument/choices if you only consider yourself important? Those " asinine things " may be the game mechanics that effect their play style the most. Why should players that enjoy exploring the world, or leveling their characters subsidize PvPer's gaming session?
The simple fact is that all microtransactions are a form of P2W if a person considers all the playstyles that may exist within a game.
My argument really comes down to the fact that we seem to define pay to win in regards to asinine things.
How will you ever understand another person's argument/choices if you only consider yourself important? Those " asinine things " may be the game mechanics that effect their play style the most. Why should players that enjoy exploring the world, or leveling their characters subsidize PvPer's gaming session?
The simple fact is that all microtransactions are a form of P2W if a person considers all the playstyles that may exist within a game.
Just because someone likes a certain play style does not make it a legitimate complaint if it is effected. That goes for P2W and other people. There is no righteous cause here on one side or the other. Just different views. People that want Time over money are a petty as people that want money over time.
My argument really comes down to the fact that we seem to define pay to win in regards to asinine things.
How will you ever understand another person's argument/choices if you only consider yourself important? Those " asinine things " may be the game mechanics that effect their play style the most. Why should players that enjoy exploring the world, or leveling their characters subsidize PvPer's gaming session?
The simple fact is that all microtransactions are a form of P2W if a person considers all the playstyles that may exist within a game.
Just because someone likes a certain play style does not make it a legitimate complaint if it is effected. That goes for P2W and other people. There is no righteous cause here on one side or the other. Just different views. People that want Time over money are a petty as people that want money over time.
Yes lets all get a smoke and watch the grass grow. You know sometimes there is the wrong and the right way. p2w model ruins games and when it does that affect me. Let me give you an example.
I already mentioned Tera. I like Tera. I am from EU and I bought the game so I have a veteran status but.. I cant play it on EU! There is no one there - servers are practically dead and I could give a shit about a bad monetization system, but i cant because it affects me.
So I made an account on NA (EnMasse) and I must play there with a f2p account. I practically lost 50 bucks because of a greedy publisher and people that supports it. Yes obviously they still get enough money from "I like the endgame" people and maybe they like playing on empty servers but I dont... and I can even bet that en-masse has more microtransaction traffic than gameforge.
My wife and I bought our second home last year and we vastly overpaid what it was worth at the time. By the logic of this thread I should not have because I contributed to the rising house prices and affected someone else.
I doubt anyone will stop spending money on whatever they want no matter what someone says. /shrug
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
Originally posted by JohnP0100 My wife and I bought our second home last year and we vastly overpaid what it was worth at the time. By the logic of this thread I should not have because I contributed to the rising house prices and affected someone else.
I doubt anyone will stop spending money on whatever they want no matter what someone says. /shrug
sentences like this make me just do /facedesk
YES. You know when people stop spending money? when the economy is broken and we have a global economic crisis (well you used a stupid analogy I just expanded on it).
likewise game communities die, servers are empty and the developer (or publisher) is crying over a shortsighted and greedy decision.
and last but not lest: i hope you learned something and will not buy another overpriced house.
The house is now worth more than what we paid for. vOv
Last I checked mmos that sell levels or items are still going strong so don't agree on the doom and gloom.
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
Comments
I quote from earlier in this thread, "A good balance gives free players a very good, playable game" You are either lying to me or your self. P2W is everything to do with with people not wanting to pay for gaming. Most subscriptions game come under attack by P4F gamers as soon as the model is disclosed. Cries of the game should be, or this game will be F2P. When a game dose go F2P the roar of victory if deafening. So no we can't go to sub games w/o cash P2w shop, because P4F gamers won't allow a P2P game to live (Even a good one).
You didn't even try clear things up, you tried to hide the fact that P4F gamers are possibly the greatest threat to gaming. I had a job in gaming. But someone looked around and realized that gamers don'y want to pay for gaming any more. As more people come to the same conclusion, less games will be made. Those games that are made will be P2W with a BFG.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
p2p and b2p with a cosmetic cash shop are the superior ways to go. F2p 90% of the time is a system where throwing large amounts of money at the game makes you superior. As opposed to putting time into the game and learning your class. Now someone who puts both large amounts of time and money into a game can often cause an imbalance in the system. Your solution to that is have people leave? My solution to that is have them play a game with a safer business model (b2p in this case not p2p)
I don't see how that's an issue in a game with on-going updates and releases, the developers must make some money from somewhere.
This way the revenue ends upimproving the game rather then spending time creating items for putting in a shop.
2001-2007 Runescape was this way, F2P was a standalone game and people made several accounts to either skill or create builds for PvP.
Then they added a shop and the game declined. Halfing the numbers and more.
But at this point you're trolling so I guess i'll stop feeding you. Good day
.
Sway all day, butterfly flaps all the way!
i dont know if p2w is bad or not but i wouldn't play a game that is so there's that.
and by p2w i mean paying for stuff that's better than what you can get from playing.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
Pay to win is fine when EVERYONE wins.
Take the gold system in albion. You can use it for premium and cosmetics however you can also trade it to other players for silver (based on a very complex formula that takes into account the global silver and gold supply). Everyone wins in this case
The company - just got money for a free to play game, letting them hire staff to stop hackers, run events, do updates, etc
The person who bought the gold with real money - just got a bunch of silver for minimal effort
The person who bought that gold with silver- just got the ability to buy premium or other cosmetics for free
The crafter - just got an order from the real world money buyer for a rare item and can now sell THAT silver for gold to get a premium account
The PvPer- just got that item off the newb who bought rare gear and ran into a PvP zone
Everyone wins in this case, out of all the F2P games systems, this is by far the best option for companies that want to make a profit while being fair to players. Even better this also seems to be the path that most major F2P games are taking
As I know of only Firefall does this at the moment and it's not full loot PvP otherwise I find it'd work completely. Do you know any specific titles?
Ofcourse I find the gameplay enticing so my judgement must be clouded, biased.
"They have the next most frustrating model after P2W and freemium and that's combination of overpriced packs that circumvent premium currency to grab more money showing backside to those who already prepaid. And of course there is also gambling, your only source of vanity because conventional store is put on side track.
Thing is yes, you can play for free and have playable content available to you. But you also want to purchase something you like, but you can't because you are walled off by these ridiculous mechanics. They go against people who'd like to put money on something specific or already paid in the past, that is hardly "great way"."Is an arguement i've heard before to that kind of monetization. In this case there are gliders implented which you can buy whilst the game has jetpacks as movement. The world has changed in such a way a glider becomes neccesity or the game starts to feel slow.
Then a random guy on the internet who farmed it all day with bots.
Sway all day, butterfly flaps all the way!
I honestly think this debate is in need of the clarification of what some people consider pay 2 win. There are games labeled as pay to win simply because they make certain mechanics like leveling or crafting faster.
For a game to be pay to win one has to sit down and ask "win what?". In regards to say a primarily PVE enviroment can pay to win be intrinsically bad. "Ohh that person paid and got stuff that took me awhile to get" isn't a valid argument in the day and age of the more casual MMORPG player that WoW has caused to spring up. Mechanics and gears and buffs that only affect the PVE experience are a complete and utter non argument if there is a cash shop offering gear otherwise it's basically just people whining that the casual player wanted to be on par with people that can invest more time in the game in PVE.
Now we can bring up the argument that pay 2 win is a complete and utter problem in PVP related things (assuming PVP gear/Buffs that carry over to PVP etc) Pay 2 Win in this realm can be dangerous in that many games focus on the rather crappy mechanic of a gear based PVP that has actual gear progression (many are removing the PVP stats and stuff from gear now but the fact that there is gear involved period yeah).
If you run into gear in a PVP scenario that is more powerful than you can find in game (let's face it microtransaction that let you get ahold of gear earlier than you would otherwise, that is still attainable at a reasonable rate in game are not BAD, again i chalk this mentality that it is the root of all evil to whiners who want to feel accomplishments)
Even then I view things in a manner that most never really bring to the forefront of this argument. It's always an all or nothing approach to them and they do not want to seem to grasp the concept that microtransactions involving gear, stat buffs (potions that buff stats not perm ones obviously) are not bad on their own, but more or less how they work out when doing PVP related things (for the record I think gear based progression PVP is annoying as hell and makes PVP woefully unbalanced because many are not on equal footing)
The whole argument should come down to is P2W affecting PVP right or wrong and then the answer is it is wrong. It shouldn't be if microtransactions that sell gear, potion based stat buffs, and general ease items are bad as a whole (this is largely what the majority of people want to label as P2W)
Also a final question and something to think about in general. Who is the latter hurting really? Who does microtransactions that sell gear, potion based stat buffs, and general ease items really hurting in a primarily PVE based environment . If kept in check and stat buffs can't be applied to PVP and you can't buy armor you can't get in game I would like an honest answer of who it is negatively impacting in a way that actually affects something other than someone's pride in having earned that item someone else can buy.
Why are you even talking about F2P games to me? Your post is chock full of assumptions. I tried to hide nothing. I did not even mention the word F2P. Did you even read my post? There is nothing in my post about F2P players, or F2P games. My post is about my being against P2W cash shops. Common sense will tell you that there is a mighty good chance that if I am against P2W cash shops, I am against F2P games. Quit rambling. You are making no sense.
The game itself for all that could be involved from PvE, PvP, skilling and crafting itself.
I usually make the comparison to Farmville when I hear this. Yes, you can wait for days and weeks or you can press a button and pay.
Rapid progression from the start and then you hit the wall.
http://game-wisdom.com/critical/defining-pay-to-win
Sway all day, butterfly flaps all the way!
The overall problem is that a lot of people say ease of use items are still P2W.. People griped about the potions in Archeage that would let you craft more often faster (that anyone could buy on the auction house as players sold them frequently) as a P2W item as a for instance even though that is purely a ease of use. Same with the crystals they had that improved your chance of going up to a higher tier or whatever when doing something.
My argument really comes down to the fact that we seem to define pay to win in regards to asinine things. Unless it negatively affects PVP it isn't really a "pay to win" scenario and more just an ease thing, Though the said bought items should not be sellable (as that will ruin thing economically speaking) Most games never put a focus on crafting (if this was done make sure the gear they can buy is only drop gear and not crafted. ie if crafted gear is better) .
People / players seem to want to define P2W as anything that is non cosmetic/mount based. I'd rather see a system that allows for microtransaction with gear and the like done appropriately, but you will get people whining that anything non cosmetic is pay to win even if a game was purely a pve based game.
Big difference from "ACCEPT IT" and support it.I might accept it has a foothold in the industry but i will never support it,they get not one red penny form me.
So they can go around and try and market their lame product,they will still get a lot of flack and negative comments for running such a model.We have NEVER liked unfair advantages in sport or life so to think it is ok in gaming is far from the truth.
The very sad reality is that a lot of people do not understand how doing anything unfair is cheating others and cheating themselves.The toughest for them to understand is the "cheating themselves",they will NEVER understand the word FUN because to them fun is ONLY winning.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The only thing I'm trying to achieve is enjoyment from a game. I feel no sense of pride or honor if it took me 6 months to hit max level any more than if it takes me a week.
As far as being "lazy", I believe the payers and the grinders are both sitting in a chair and clicking on a mouse and keyboard. The laziness is pretty equal.
Nah people used to make extensive, multiple-pagelong guides on how to do things in a proficient manner or they shared their method of play / discovered alternative fun stuff.
I miss that.
But I get that you want to enjoy a game. That's why I buy games xD.
Sway all day, butterfly flaps all the way!
so let me get this straight: you enjoy the game by not playing it? wut? your logic is kinda messed up ... well I guess you cant buy that eh?
P2W is just bad full stop for the average Joe who wants to be on an even playing field with everyone else. In-game deeds should always matter more than the size of your wallet but unfortunately this is not the case with P2W games.
This is the reason I tried Archeage and despite being an interesting mmo I walked away.
Thanks for the article. It's not too bad, actually. I felt he lost a bit of credibility with me when I suggested that everyone should use LoLs F2P model to be successful and achieve longevity, though. LoLs model is based on having a significant user base. You cannot survive using that model with a user base of a couple hundred thousand. Sorry. Also, I didn't mind the definition (below) from the article, but it introduces that ONE big problem with P2W definitions, and that is subjectivity. It says "...positively impacts the game experience..." but every game experience is different for ever user. I've adjusted it below:
If there are any unique purchases that provide statistical advantages (based on best in slot gear) compared to what can be earned in the game, and are only available with premium currency (aka real money), then the game is considered Pay to Win.
Crazkanuk
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I suppose it is, if all you got from my post is me saying that I enjoy not playing games.
the pay2win model is exactly this. imagine playing a game of basketball with 9 other ppl. give the ref some money, and your lack of skill or double dribble gets overlooked. you're paying to win the game when you dont have the time or dedication to win it like everyone else on an equal playing field.
get rid of this model. ive played practically every mmo on the market avaiable to me in the us, and sometimes hacking my way into games not available to me in the us since i was like 14. 18 years ago and counting. I quickly leave games the moment i realize the pay2win model exists. Ive even tried to overcome this model in some games, and made it to the point where im competeing with ppl that have clearly dumped THOUSANDS of dollars into games, when i tried to dump a few hundred dollars, and wasnt even 1-5th of the raw power output that some ppl were on. these models are HORRENDOUS
How will you ever understand another person's argument/choices if you only consider yourself important? Those " asinine things " may be the game mechanics that effect their play style the most. Why should players that enjoy exploring the world, or leveling their characters subsidize PvPer's gaming session?
The simple fact is that all microtransactions are a form of P2W if a person considers all the playstyles that may exist within a game.
Just because someone likes a certain play style does not make it a legitimate complaint if it is effected. That goes for P2W and other people. There is no righteous cause here on one side or the other. Just different views. People that want Time over money are a petty as people that want money over time.
Yes lets all get a smoke and watch the grass grow. You know sometimes there is the wrong and the right way. p2w model ruins games and when it does that affect me. Let me give you an example.
I already mentioned Tera. I like Tera. I am from EU and I bought the game so I have a veteran status but.. I cant play it on EU! There is no one there - servers are practically dead and I could give a shit about a bad monetization system, but i cant because it affects me.
So I made an account on NA (EnMasse) and I must play there with a f2p account. I practically lost 50 bucks because of a greedy publisher and people that supports it. Yes obviously they still get enough money from "I like the endgame" people and maybe they like playing on empty servers but I dont... and I can even bet that en-masse has more microtransaction traffic than gameforge.
I doubt anyone will stop spending money on whatever they want no matter what someone says. /shrug
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
sentences like this make me just do /facedesk
YES. You know when people stop spending money? when the economy is broken and we have a global economic crisis (well you used a stupid analogy I just expanded on it).
likewise game communities die, servers are empty and the developer (or publisher) is crying over a shortsighted and greedy decision.
and last but not lest: i hope you learned something and will not buy another overpriced house.
Last I checked mmos that sell levels or items are still going strong so don't agree on the doom and gloom.
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi