The "old school" guys are no better than the "new school" guys. The only difference is you think you have more knowledge and your opinions are better because you classify yourself as "old school". When you get down to the meat of it you QQ just like the "new" players, you complain about everything just the the "new" players, you are never happy (Archage proved this and it's all Archage proved) just like the "new" players. "Old" school "new" school it will never change you guys will never stop QQing and never be happy.
For this statement both "new" and "old" school are referencing the ones in forums like this. Where do I fit in? I'm a gamer been gaming for 30 years but I don't label myself as anything I play video games to relax, if I don't enjoy a certain game I don't play it, not a chance I act like an idiot and pretend everyone feels the way I do and that an entire genre of video games SHOULD change because I may not like it.
There are 1000s of games out there if you can't find one you enjoy without QQing about it, maybe it's time you find a new hobby? Who knows maybe QQing on a forum is your new hobby.
The only thing ArcheAge proved, is how to destroy a decent game as fast as humanly possible.
By virtue of experience, old school players that have honestly played both the old and new, do have more knowledge. The vast majority of the players in this genre have never experienced an MMO that operates and feels like a virtual world rather than just a game. Most of them simply read a wikipedia entry, looked at some google images, or played the modernized version of old games and parade around here like they have a clue. They stick out like a sore thumb.
Haha and big headed, high horse riding "old school" gamers who parade around like their crap dont stink, stick out like a sore thumb also.
"The vast majority" it's so cute how you guys think you know what everyone feels, thinks, experienced, wants, and knows. If you guys took your amazing ability and turned into something good in the real world, our world might be a much better place.
Hi Tessle, are you on 24/7 to be sure Old Schoolers don't gain any power ?
Oh I'm sorry delete am I supposed to check in with you before I post?
The "old school" guys are no better than the "new school" guys. The only difference is you think you have more knowledge and your opinions are better because you classify yourself as "old school". When you get down to the meat of it you QQ just like the "new" players, you complain about everything just the the "new" players, you are never happy (Archage proved this and it's all Archage proved) just like the "new" players. "Old" school "new" school it will never change you guys will never stop QQing and never be happy.
For this statement both "new" and "old" school are referencing the ones in forums like this. Where do I fit in? I'm a gamer been gaming for 30 years but I don't label myself as anything I play video games to relax, if I don't enjoy a certain game I don't play it, not a chance I act like an idiot and pretend everyone feels the way I do and that an entire genre of video games SHOULD change because I may not like it.
There are 1000s of games out there if you can't find one you enjoy without QQing about it, maybe it's time you find a new hobby? Who knows maybe QQing on a forum is your new hobby.
The only thing ArcheAge proved, is how to destroy a decent game as fast as humanly possible.
By virtue of experience, old school players that have honestly played both the old and new, do have more knowledge. The vast majority of the players in this genre have never experienced an MMO that operates and feels like a virtual world rather than just a game. Most of them simply read a wikipedia entry, looked at some google images, or played the modernized version of old games and parade around here like they have a clue. They stick out like a sore thumb.
Haha and big headed, high horse riding "old school" gamers who parade around like their crap dont stink, stick out like a sore thumb also.
"The vast majority" it's so cute how you guys think you know what everyone feels, thinks, experienced, wants, and knows. If you guys took your amazing ability and turned into something good in the real world, our world might be a much better place.
Hi Tessle, are you on 24/7 to be sure Old Schoolers don't gain any power ?
I can't ignore this. What does this mean?
Do you view this forum as a struggle between new players and old players in which the old players will ultimately defeat the new players?
Oh he just can't handle when someone doesn't agree with his opinion. And I made it completely clear I feel the same way towards "old" and "new" players, so his comment is nothing more than QQing over nothing.
The "old school" guys are no better than the "new school" guys. The only difference is you think you have more knowledge and your opinions are better because you classify yourself as "old school". When you get down to the meat of it you QQ just like the "new" players, you complain about everything just the the "new" players, you are never happy (Archage proved this and it's all Archage proved) just like the "new" players. "Old" school "new" school it will never change you guys will never stop QQing and never be happy.
For this statement both "new" and "old" school are referencing the ones in forums like this. Where do I fit in? I'm a gamer been gaming for 30 years but I don't label myself as anything I play video games to relax, if I don't enjoy a certain game I don't play it, not a chance I act like an idiot and pretend everyone feels the way I do and that an entire genre of video games SHOULD change because I may not like it.
There are 1000s of games out there if you can't find one you enjoy without QQing about it, maybe it's time you find a new hobby? Who knows maybe QQing on a forum is your new hobby.
The only thing ArcheAge proved, is how to destroy a decent game as fast as humanly possible.
By virtue of experience, old school players that have honestly played both the old and new, do have more knowledge. The vast majority of the players in this genre have never experienced an MMO that operates and feels like a virtual world rather than just a game. Most of them simply read a wikipedia entry, looked at some google images, or played the modernized version of old games and parade around here like they have a clue. They stick out like a sore thumb.
Haha and big headed, high horse riding "old school" gamers who parade around like their crap dont stink, stick out like a sore thumb also.
"The vast majority" it's so cute how you guys think you know what everyone feels, thinks, experienced, wants, and knows. If you guys took your amazing ability and turned into something good in the real world, our world might be a much better place.
Hi Tessle, are you on 24/7 to be sure Old Schoolers don't gain any power ?
I can't ignore this. What does this mean?
Do you view this forum as a struggle between new players and old players in which the old players will ultimately defeat the new players?
Oh he just can't handle when someone doesn't agree with his opinion. And I made it completely clear I feel the same way towards "old" and "new" players, so his comment is nothing more than QQing over nothing.
As an "old school" gamer, I would agree with Tasslehoff that Delete does a significant amount of whining. Actually, I have 4 kids, so whenever I do read one of his posts it makes me angry and I want to send him to his room.
Originally posted by umcorian Originally posted by FoomerangBitter vets are a walking contradiction. You want old school niche with a main stream budget. You want console quality worlds and quests but oh no its so dumbed down now. You have a laundry list of mandatory features yet your favorite mmorpg was mostly broken during its prime. You don't play any mmos and hate everything out there yet you insist you love the genre. You want the genre to change because you can't deal with your own personal changes over the years. You post the same topics over and over to create some sense of "we" all feel like this. You have officially run out of new things to complain about.
Oh, us "bitter vets" are not too hard to understand. Let me help you out, sonny.
We want main stream budget games that are as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We want non-dumbed down games that are as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We want games with features that make them as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We hate most everything out there because they aren't as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We want the genre to produce games that are as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
And while similar topics get posted sometimes by same or different people (that's the way the Internet works, son - it's like a bigger version of Instagram and Snapchat), we all share one thing in common: we're looking for a game that's as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
And since you looped us all together anyway, using 'we' is okay.
And we've run out of new things to complain about because every new MMO that comes out seems to run out of new things to screw up that the last ones hadn't.
I hope this has given you some insight into how us old folks operate. Now I'm going to drink some damn prune juice, read my Facebook feed and wonder why your generation has done such stupid crap like making selfies a thing and Justin Bieber popular.
Lol If you were being ironic, this is an amazing post. If not....
A few months back I played Vanilla WoW, that game has so much content that games like ESO and FF14 would have to release four expansions.
Playing casually a few hours a day, some days maybe an hour, and maybe on weekends three or four. A little bit of chatting and a little helping lower Guild members, It would take :
3 days to get to level 10
2 weeks to get to level 20
1 day for each level past 20
2 day for each level past 30........And so on.
4-6 months total playing that way.
The game is made to level slower BECAUSE THERE ARE ENUFF QUEST !
The game was harder where you had to wait for someone to come on line to help or make a new friend by asking them to help.
You could, choose between three different race areas to quest in.
Come to think of it, if you gave the graphics a face lift for Vanilla WoW, it would blow all newer mmos out of the water. Maybe reduce the old quest would also help. Now this is an OLD old school game !
This was a world players could live in. Very few carrot-on-a-stick, without fast leveling.
It's funny to me that vanilla WoW is now considered "old school". It makes sense. The game has changed a lot over the last 10 years. It's just funny to see people calling it time consuming when reducing the amount of time and effort it took to get to max level was one of the genre changing design decisions.
Anyway, slowing down the amount of time it takes to level and making sure there are a million fetch quests to fill in that time seems like an awful idea to me at least. Leveling was my least favorite thing about WoW. PvP, dungeons, raids and gear progression were my favorite things about that game. I prefer a different style of game these days, but I'll just say that I definitely don't miss the days of extremely tedious quest grinding.
Originally posted by delete5230 A few months back I played Vanilla WoW, that game has so much content that games like ESO and FF14 would have to release four expansions.Playing casually a few hours a day, some days maybe an hour, and maybe on weekends three or four. A little bit of chatting and a little helping lower Guild members, It would take days to get to level 102 weeks to get to level 201 day for each level past 202 day for each level past 30........And so on.4-6 months total playing that way. The game is made to level slower BECAUSE THERE ARE ENUFF QUEST !The game was harder where you had to wait for someone to come on line to help or make a new friend by asking them to help.You could, choose between three different race areas to quest in. Come to think of it, if you gave the graphics a face lift for Vanilla WoW, it would blow all newer mmos out of the water. Maybe reduce the old quest would also help. Now this is an OLD old school game ! This was a world players could live in. Very few carrot-on-a-stick, without fast leveling.
I was playing swg when wow came out. Vanilla wow was the most, restricted, linear mmo I've ever played. Only 9 classes, no open world housing, crafting had zero depth. All of your items existed merely as 2d icons on your bag.
But it had bright, pretty colors and it had arcade style combat. And it had pop culture references up the wazoo and everybody ate it up.
Now people put vanilla wow in the same category as old school MMOs like uo, swg, ac? No thanks lol
I started with Uo/EQ an despite that I always find myself on the oppisite side of the arguement from the "Old School" crowd here. I esspecially find the juvinile arguement style of claiming old school games were for "adults" especially ironic. It's the type of comment my 13 year old daughter makes to her younger sibling all the time.
I do however empathize with what the "vets" are trying to say, to a certain degree. I just wish instead of holding there ground and claiming things like forced grouping, non-instanced camps, yelling for groups, corpse runs, harsh death penalties and long leveling times were what made old school games great they would just simply stick with saying Community, Immersion, and Interdependancy aren't as prevelant now as they were then. I could agree with that statement and get behind it. But I will never play another game that has Corpse runs in they way EQ had corpse runs. That mechanic was broken and poorly designed. While it might have provided a sense of danger and urgency when deep in the bowls of the dungeoun it was far too punitive to be an effective game mechanic for anyone but masocists.
This belief that these old mechanics are the only way to move the genre forward is a fallacy. We moved on from these mechanics not because the goal was to eliminate Community, Immersion or Interdependancy but because they were poorly designed mechanics that were more likely to chase people out of the game than they were to encourage the former.
Figure out what it was at the core of the experience that made is so much fun. Was it forced grouping that made it fun or the fact that you explored deep in a dungeon with others that were all focused and prepared for a difficult task. Wasn't it more a factor of the fact that your actions had meaning positive or negative for the groups success or failure. Did you really need to lose half your XP on death in order to "force" every other player to focus? Did you really need to be the only one that could "heal" in order to make your actions have meaning?
Its too intellectually lazy to simply say, EQ was fun, EQ had corpse runs, camping, long leveling, and harsh death penalties. Therefore the only games that are fun as those that have corpse runs, camping, long leveling and harsh death penalties. To champion those mechanics because you can endure the downsides without it ruining your fun is completely discounting the number of people for whom those mechanics pretty much made the game unplayable.
Originally posted by delete5230 THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THEY STOPED MAKING OLD SCHOOL MMOS. There fore it's the only reference ANYONE HAS !
Have you ever stopped to think WHY devs have stopped making old school MMOs?
I think there is a market for both. Even some of the new MMOers are getting older and may not see the love they once had for twitch games. Also there is the old school gamer who has not had an MMO made from them in many years. Of corse old school games will have a smaller market but like the games of old, EQ, DAoC, UO, they have some of the best communities I have seen and if given a quality option, I think a modernized old school MMO would draw a mature gaming crowd. Only way to capture that is to make teaming matter and IMO thats what most new MMOs is missing.
A few months back I played Vanilla WoW, that game has so much content that games like ESO and FF14 would have to release four expansions.
Playing casually a few hours a day, some days maybe an hour, and maybe on weekends three or four. A little bit of chatting and a little helping lower Guild members, It would take :
3 days to get to level 10
2 weeks to get to level 20
1 day for each level past 20
2 day for each level past 30........And so on.
4-6 months total playing that way.
The game is made to level slower BECAUSE THERE ARE ENUFF QUEST !
The game was harder where you had to wait for someone to come on line to help or make a new friend by asking them to help.
You could, choose between three different race areas to quest in.
Come to think of it, if you gave the graphics a face lift for Vanilla WoW, it would blow all newer mmos out of the water. Maybe reduce the old quest would also help. Now this is an OLD old school game !
This was a world players could live in. Very few carrot-on-a-stick, without fast leveling.
Really cool story Bro. Your opinions have been noted. Unfortunetly that's not what gamers apparently want today. There has to be a reason why all these developers are staying away from making an "old school" game for you "old school" gamers. I think it has to be more than to laugh at you guys, there must be another reason! What could it be? I don't maybe there isn't a market for it?
A few months back I played Vanilla WoW, that game has so much content that games like ESO and FF14 would have to release four expansions.
Playing casually a few hours a day, some days maybe an hour, and maybe on weekends three or four. A little bit of chatting and a little helping lower Guild members, It would take :
3 days to get to level 10
2 weeks to get to level 20
1 day for each level past 20
2 day for each level past 30........And so on.
4-6 months total playing that way.
The game is made to level slower BECAUSE THERE ARE ENUFF QUEST !
The game was harder where you had to wait for someone to come on line to help or make a new friend by asking them to help.
You could, choose between three different race areas to quest in.
Come to think of it, if you gave the graphics a face lift for Vanilla WoW, it would blow all newer mmos out of the water. Maybe reduce the old quest would also help. Now this is an OLD old school game !
This was a world players could live in. Very few carrot-on-a-stick, without fast leveling.
Really cool story Bro. Your opinions have been noted. Unfortunetly that's not what gamers apparently want today. There has to be a reason why all these developers are staying away from making an "old school" game for you "old school" gamers. I think it has to be more than to laugh at you guys, there must be another reason! What could it be? I don't maybe there isn't a market for it?
I think it has nothing to do with the want for that type of game its just about the money. Games are made now to grab the casual gamer. Why? There is more of them then hardcore. Right now I am talking about time to play not mind set. So they look at what can net the largest number of players and design a game that way. Doing so has lost some of the magic that made old school MMOs so great. Now dont get me wrong, MMOs have made some great leaps forward I would not like to see removed from any MMO. This does not mean there is not a market for an old school game with modern twist. I think the market could float more then a few of that type of game. Devs need to get out of the mid set of wanting to be the next WoW. I dont mean game play, I mean trying to be the next top dog with the most number of players. We are starting to see that shift but I think even there with the niche games, to much focus is being done to make PvP games. Its cheap content and I get why they are doing it. We need a new modern twist on EQ1, DAoC or UO. Where teaming matters and who you make friends with matters.
Originally posted by FoomerangBitter vets are a walking contradiction. You want old school niche with a main stream budget. You want console quality worlds and quests but oh no its so dumbed down now. You have a laundry list of mandatory features yet your favorite mmorpg was mostly broken during its prime. You don't play any mmos and hate everything out there yet you insist you love the genre. You want the genre to change because you can't deal with your own personal changes over the years. You post the same topics over and over to create some sense of "we" all feel like this. You have officially run out of new things to complain about.
Oh, us "bitter vets" are not too hard to understand. Let me help you out, sonny.
We want main stream budget games that are as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We want non-dumbed down games that are as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We want games with features that make them as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We hate most everything out there because they aren't as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We want the genre to produce games that are as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
And while similar topics get posted sometimes by same or different people (that's the way the Internet works, son - it's like a bigger version of Instagram and Snapchat), we all share one thing in common: we're looking for a game that's as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
And since you looped us all together anyway, using 'we' is okay.
And we've run out of new things to complain about because every new MMO that comes out seems to run out of new things to screw up that the last ones hadn't.
I hope this has given you some insight into how us old folks operate. Now I'm going to drink some damn prune juice, read my Facebook feed and wonder why your generation has done such stupid crap like making selfies a thing and Justin Bieber popular.
Lol If you were being ironic, this is an amazing post. If not....
It's 50% irony, 50% not so.
No irony now - it's not a big mystery: if you want MMO vets to like your game, make an MMO that's as fun as hell. That's it.
I'm an old school UO, EQ and WoW player... but I play plenty of modernish games. Heroes of the Storm, Hearthstone, Skyrim, Dragon Age Inquisition, Fallouts, and have little negative to say about any of them. Why? Because they're actually fun games.
It's not my fault that hardly any MMO has come out since 2004 that is actually fun to play and doesn't suck ass. What do you want from me? If Devs spent a little less time trying to clone WoW and then come up with lists explaining in pain-steaking detail all the ways their MMO was different from WoW after everyone who's played it for a few hours says: "This is just like WoW."... maybe we'd have a modern age MMO that was fun as hell.
Until then, well... I got prune juice, Facebook and irritable bowel sydrome. I'll bitch on the forums as much as I like until someone makes an actual fun MMO again. Because I love the genre, even if developers can't seem to figure out why.
A few months back I played Vanilla WoW, that game has so much content that games like ESO and FF14 would have to release four expansions.
Playing casually a few hours a day, some days maybe an hour, and maybe on weekends three or four. A little bit of chatting and a little helping lower Guild members, It would take :
3 days to get to level 10
2 weeks to get to level 20
1 day for each level past 20
2 day for each level past 30........And so on.
4-6 months total playing that way.
The game is made to level slower BECAUSE THERE ARE ENUFF QUEST !
The game was harder where you had to wait for someone to come on line to help or make a new friend by asking them to help.
You could, choose between three different race areas to quest in.
Come to think of it, if you gave the graphics a face lift for Vanilla WoW, it would blow all newer mmos out of the water. Maybe reduce the old quest would also help. Now this is an OLD old school game !
This was a world players could live in. Very few carrot-on-a-stick, without fast leveling.
Really cool story Bro. Your opinions have been noted. Unfortunetly that's not what gamers apparently want today. There has to be a reason why all these developers are staying away from making an "old school" game for you "old school" gamers. I think it has to be more than to laugh at you guys, there must be another reason! What could it be? I don't maybe there isn't a market for it?
I think it has nothing to do with the want for that type of game its just about the money. Games are made now to grab the casual gamer. Why? There is more of them then hardcore. Right now I am talking about time to play not mind set. So they look at what can net the largest number of players and design a game that way. Doing so has lost some of the magic that made old school MMOs so great. Now dont get me wrong, MMOs have made some great leaps forward I would not like to see removed from any MMO. This does not mean there is not a market for an old school game with modern twist. I think the market could float more then a few of that type of game. Devs need to get out of the mid set of wanting to be the next WoW. I dont mean game play, I mean trying to be the next top dog with the most number of players. We are starting to see that shift but I think even there with the niche games, to much focus is being done to make PvP games. Its cheap content and I get why they are doing it. We need a new modern twist on EQ1, DAoC or UO. Where teaming matters and who you make friends with matters.
Hey I appreciate you putting this is a logical well thought out discussion and not how the op comes off, it's very refreshing. As I've stated I don't have an issue with "old school" game elements or player. My issues come from the "old" and "new" players who think and act like to OP that their way is the only way and everyone else is wrong.
I I think the issue is us gamers (I don't consider myself "old school" cause that would put me in the same category as the op) are getting older and some if not most of us are having families, jobs and a life outside of video games, we don't have the time to invest in what the op wants, developers know this. The newer gamers (not all) want things now, their (again not all) social skills lack the skills we had because of the technology they are using in a daily bases. You combine these and you can see why the market is why it is. The developers are not blind to this. But hey just my opinion on the subject.
A few months back I played Vanilla WoW, that game has so much content that games like ESO and FF14 would have to release four expansions.
Playing casually a few hours a day, some days maybe an hour, and maybe on weekends three or four. A little bit of chatting and a little helping lower Guild members, It would take :
3 days to get to level 10
2 weeks to get to level 20
1 day for each level past 20
2 day for each level past 30........And so on.
4-6 months total playing that way.
The game is made to level slower BECAUSE THERE ARE ENUFF QUEST !
The game was harder where you had to wait for someone to come on line to help or make a new friend by asking them to help.
You could, choose between three different race areas to quest in.
Come to think of it, if you gave the graphics a face lift for Vanilla WoW, it would blow all newer mmos out of the water. Maybe reduce the old quest would also help. Now this is an OLD old school game !
This was a world players could live in. Very few carrot-on-a-stick, without fast leveling.
Really cool story Bro. Your opinions have been noted. Unfortunetly that's not what gamers apparently want today. There has to be a reason why all these developers are staying away from making an "old school" game for you "old school" gamers. I think it has to be more than to laugh at you guys, there must be another reason! What could it be? I don't maybe there isn't a market for it?
I think it has nothing to do with the want for that type of game its just about the money. Games are made now to grab the casual gamer. Why? There is more of them then hardcore. Right now I am talking about time to play not mind set. So they look at what can net the largest number of players and design a game that way. Doing so has lost some of the magic that made old school MMOs so great. Now dont get me wrong, MMOs have made some great leaps forward I would not like to see removed from any MMO. This does not mean there is not a market for an old school game with modern twist. I think the market could float more then a few of that type of game. Devs need to get out of the mid set of wanting to be the next WoW. I dont mean game play, I mean trying to be the next top dog with the most number of players. We are starting to see that shift but I think even there with the niche games, to much focus is being done to make PvP games. Its cheap content and I get why they are doing it. We need a new modern twist on EQ1, DAoC or UO. Where teaming matters and who you make friends with matters.
Hey I appreciate you putting this is a logical well thought out discussion and not how the op comes off, it's very refreshing. As I've stated I don't have an issue with "old school" game elements or player. My issues come from the "old" and "new" players who think and act like to OP that their way is the only way and everyone else is wrong.
I I think the issue is us gamers (I don't consider myself "old school" cause that would put me in the same category as the op) are getting older and some if not most of us are having families, jobs and a life outside of video games, we don't have the time to invest in what the op wants, developers know this. The newer gamers (not all) want things now, their (again not all) social skills lack the skills we had because of the technology they are using in a daily bases. You combine these and you can see why the market is why it is. The developers are not blind to this. But hey just my opinion on the subject.
I certainly think there's a reality to this - but like a good book, a good game finds time for itself. In 10 more years, the average 'old school MMOer' will be in their 40s. 30 more years, their 60s... and planning retirement. When I retire, I plan to do a lot of gaming. Sure, I may take more Bio breaks and I may need to pick the OP classes to not completely suck compared to the grandkids thanks to arthritis and/or cataracts, but gaming has been a major part of my life since I was 4.
It hasn't changed now that I'm in my 30s. Doubt it's going to change in the other half of my life either.
Developers: We can't tell you exactly tell you the formula for fun, no more than a patron at a resturaunt can tell a master chef what makes a perfect dish - we'll know it when we taste it though. One suggestion: Stop looking to create the next "WoW+Innovation."... it's not working. Look to other inspirations - EvE. UO. Or take the horse in a completely different direction. That's how we got EQ/WoW in the first place. Sure, it's risky, but you seem to want to have your cake and eat it too - a cash cow like WoW, but you wanna be 100% safe and just essentially clone WoW. Doesn't fly. To get your own cash cow, you're gonna have to take some risks.
Developers: We can't tell you exactly tell you the formula for fun, no more than a patron at a resturaunt can tell a master chef what makes a perfect dish - we'll know it when we taste it though. One suggestion: Stop looking to create the next "WoW+Innovation."... it's not working. Use another idea for your jumping point - people are hungry for something else.
What are you talking about? No AAA dev is trying to create the next WoW anymore.
Now they are doing MOBA, card games, instanced pvp games, co-op RPGs.
Developers: We can't tell you exactly tell you the formula for fun, no more than a patron at a resturaunt can tell a master chef what makes a perfect dish - we'll know it when we taste it though. One suggestion: Stop looking to create the next "WoW+Innovation."... it's not working. Use another idea for your jumping point - people are hungry for something else.
What are you talking about? No AAA dev is trying to create the next WoW anymore.
Now they are doing MOBA, card games, instanced pvp games, co-op RPGs.
1. Not true. Plenty of MMOs are still coming down the line from big companies - just none with an impending release. The genre is not dead - it's just rebuffed a bunch of developers who want to have their cake and eat it too. A cashcow like WoW by taking zero risks.
2. Sadly, too true... and the stupid part? They never learn. By the time something hits it big (like LoL or Hearthstone), it's usually too late to try and clone it (Heroes of the Storm being an exception... but it's Blizzard. They don't have to play by the rules. They've built a legacy over about 30 years of excellence that they're only just beginning to squander). With every passing year, gamers get better at spotting the knock-off cashgrabs. They stick with the one that brought them to the dance, then - when they tire of it - they try something 100% different.
Developers: We can't tell you exactly tell you the formula for fun, no more than a patron at a resturaunt can tell a master chef what makes a perfect dish - we'll know it when we taste it though. One suggestion: Stop looking to create the next "WoW+Innovation."... it's not working. Use another idea for your jumping point - people are hungry for something else.
What are you talking about? No AAA dev is trying to create the next WoW anymore.
Now they are doing MOBA, card games, instanced pvp games, co-op RPGs.
1. Not true. Plenty of MMOs are still coming down the line from big companies - just none with an impending release. The genre is not dead - it's just rebuffed a bunch of developers who want to have their cake and eat it too. A cashcow like WoW by taking zero risks.
2. Sadly, too true... and the stupid part? They never learn. By the time something hits it big (like LoL or Hearthstone), it's usually too late to try and clone it (Heroes of the Storm being an exception... but it's Blizzard. They don't have to play by the rules. They've built a legacy over about 30 years of excellence that they're only just beginning to squander). With every passing year, gamers get better at spotting the knock-off cashgrabs. They stick with the one that brought them to the dance, then - when they tire of it - they try something 100% different.
Developers: We can't tell you exactly tell you the formula for fun, no more than a patron at a resturaunt can tell a master chef what makes a perfect dish - we'll know it when we taste it though. One suggestion: Stop looking to create the next "WoW+Innovation."... it's not working. Use another idea for your jumping point - people are hungry for something else.
What are you talking about? No AAA dev is trying to create the next WoW anymore.
Now they are doing MOBA, card games, instanced pvp games, co-op RPGs.
1. Not true. Plenty of MMOs are still coming down the line from big companies - just none with an impending release. The genre is not dead - it's just rebuffed a bunch of developers who want to have their cake and eat it too. A cashcow like WoW by taking zero risks.
2. Sadly, too true... and the stupid part? They never learn. By the time something hits it big (like LoL or Hearthstone), it's usually too late to try and clone it (Heroes of the Storm being an exception... but it's Blizzard. They don't have to play by the rules. They've built a legacy over about 30 years of excellence that they're only just beginning to squander). With every passing year, gamers get better at spotting the knock-off cashgrabs. They stick with the one that brought them to the dance, then - when they tire of it - they try something 100% different.
1) Like what? Don't tell me EQN
2) Why sad ... isn't change a good thing?
EQN (why not mention it? I'd hope the: "It's vaporware, the Internet told me so" argument isn't quite the extent of your research) and Blade and Soul are the next big studio releases. While it's not quite the popping market it used to be, clearly ideas aren't dead - and crowd-source funding has never been bigger. You'd be surprised what passionate developers can do, given $5 million dollars and no suits/stockholders to answer to.
I'm looking forward to seeing the results of these - I'm sure they'll be better than Aion, TERA, Wildstar and Archage put together.
And change is great, but only a handful of people changed. The rest are just jumping on the bandwagon, picking a title like LOL, Hearthstone or TF2, throwing a new skin on it with some token innovations and letting it fly. There's no reason to believe that the same thing that happened to the 12-20 WoW Clones that rolled out in the last 10 years won't happen to them.
EQN (why not mention it? I'd hope the: "It's vaporware, the Internet told me so" argument isn't quite the extent of your research) and Blade and Soul are the next big studio releases. While it's not quite the popping market it used to be, clearly ideas aren't dead - and crowd-source funding has never been bigger. You'd be surprised what passionate developers can do, given $5 million dollars and no suits/stockholders to answer to.
I'm looking forward to seeing the results of these - I'm sure they'll be better than Aion, TERA, Wildstar and Archage put together.
And change is great, but only a handful of people changed. The rest are just jumping on the bandwagon, picking a title like LOL, Hearthstone or TF2, throwing a new skin on it with some token innovations and letting it fly. There's no reason to believe that the same thing that happened to the 12-20 WoW Clones that rolled out in the last 10 years won't happen to them.
EQN ... well .. if it see the light of the day (which is not for certain .. but i am not going to say it definitely won't) .. it is ONE.
Blade & Soul .. really? We are talking about AAA development .. getting a pantry $5M from crowd-sourcing does not count. In fact, if a game needs crowd-sourcing ... it is not AAA.
I never say there is no indie small projects, did I?
Developers: We can't tell you exactly tell you the formula for fun, no more than a patron at a resturaunt can tell a master chef what makes a perfect dish - we'll know it when we taste it though. One suggestion: Stop looking to create the next "WoW+Innovation."... it's not working. Use another idea for your jumping point - people are hungry for something else.
What are you talking about? No AAA dev is trying to create the next WoW anymore.
Now they are doing MOBA, card games, instanced pvp games, co-op RPGs.
1. Not true. Plenty of MMOs are still coming down the line from big companies - just none with an impending release. The genre is not dead - it's just rebuffed a bunch of developers who want to have their cake and eat it too. A cashcow like WoW by taking zero risks.
2. Sadly, too true... and the stupid part? They never learn. By the time something hits it big (like LoL or Hearthstone), it's usually too late to try and clone it (Heroes of the Storm being an exception... but it's Blizzard. They don't have to play by the rules. They've built a legacy over about 30 years of excellence that they're only just beginning to squander). With every passing year, gamers get better at spotting the knock-off cashgrabs. They stick with the one that brought them to the dance, then - when they tire of it - they try something 100% different.
1. Yes true. Whether you want to accept it or not, even people in the industry have said that the Themepark is dead. Actually, at Pax East there was an MMORPG panel where I believe they had said that Wildstar would be the last AAA Themepark. Soooo, yeah, sorry.
2. Games take a long time to develop. If you believe that people are sitting on their hands, waiting for something to make it big so they can copy it, you're wrong. That being said, Mobile gaming is impacting gaming, as a whole, in a huge way. Now it's all about microsessions. We've got these games that take us 5 or 10 minutes at a time to play, and after that we can walk away. I used to call my iPad my iPoop for that exact reason. However, in reality, you end up spending 5-10 minutes on 5-10 different games, adding up to plenty of hours. You might not have time to raid, but I would venture to say that most people are spending more time in mobile games on a daily basis than what it would take to complete some raids. I really don't think it has anything to do with knock-offs. It has everything to do with companies overestimating the size of the MMORPG market for years. Everyone wanting to "just get 10% of WoWs subscribers" which never happened. WoW is anomalous.
As far as "clones" go, LoL and Hearthstone are both clones, you know. DOTA was actually out waaaaay before LoL and Magic had died 3 or 4 times over before Hearthstone was even conceived. So that doesn't really speak to the whole idea of "Why would you ever copy a popular game?"
EQN (why not mention it? I'd hope the: "It's vaporware, the Internet told me so" argument isn't quite the extent of your research) and Blade and Soul are the next big studio releases. While it's not quite the popping market it used to be, clearly ideas aren't dead - and crowd-source funding has never been bigger. You'd be surprised what passionate developers can do, given $5 million dollars and no suits/stockholders to answer to.
I'm looking forward to seeing the results of these - I'm sure they'll be better than Aion, TERA, Wildstar and Archage put together.
And change is great, but only a handful of people changed. The rest are just jumping on the bandwagon, picking a title like LOL, Hearthstone or TF2, throwing a new skin on it with some token innovations and letting it fly. There's no reason to believe that the same thing that happened to the 12-20 WoW Clones that rolled out in the last 10 years won't happen to them.
EQN ... well .. if it see the light of the day (which is not for certain .. but i am not going to say it definitely won't) .. it is ONE.
Blade & Soul .. really? We are talking about AAA development .. getting a pantry $5M from crowd-sourcing does not count. In fact, if a game needs crowd-sourcing ... it is not AAA.
I never say there is no indie small projects, did I?
Blade and Soul is being developed by NCSoft.
And no, you never said anything about those like most people don't. If it's not AAA, it's not worth mentioning. Another sad reality.
Developers: We can't tell you exactly tell you the formula for fun, no more than a patron at a resturaunt can tell a master chef what makes a perfect dish - we'll know it when we taste it though. One suggestion: Stop looking to create the next "WoW+Innovation."... it's not working. Use another idea for your jumping point - people are hungry for something else.
What are you talking about? No AAA dev is trying to create the next WoW anymore.
Now they are doing MOBA, card games, instanced pvp games, co-op RPGs.
1. Not true. Plenty of MMOs are still coming down the line from big companies - just none with an impending release. The genre is not dead - it's just rebuffed a bunch of developers who want to have their cake and eat it too. A cashcow like WoW by taking zero risks.
2. Sadly, too true... and the stupid part? They never learn. By the time something hits it big (like LoL or Hearthstone), it's usually too late to try and clone it (Heroes of the Storm being an exception... but it's Blizzard. They don't have to play by the rules. They've built a legacy over about 30 years of excellence that they're only just beginning to squander). With every passing year, gamers get better at spotting the knock-off cashgrabs. They stick with the one that brought them to the dance, then - when they tire of it - they try something 100% different.
1. Yes true. Whether you want to accept it or not, even people in the industry have said that the Themepark is dead. Actually, at Pax East there was an MMORPG panel where I believe they had said that Wildstar would be the last AAA Themepark. Soooo, yeah, sorry.
2. Games take a long time to develop. If you believe that people are sitting on their hands, waiting for something to make it big so they can copy it, you're wrong. That being said, Mobile gaming is impacting gaming, as a whole, in a huge way. Now it's all about microsessions. We've got these games that take us 5 or 10 minutes at a time to play, and after that we can walk away. I used to call my iPad my iPoop for that exact reason. However, in reality, you end up spending 5-10 minutes on 5-10 different games, adding up to plenty of hours. You might not have time to raid, but I would venture to say that most people are spending more time in mobile games on a daily basis than what it would take to complete some raids. I really don't think it has anything to do with knock-offs. It has everything to do with companies overestimating the size of the MMORPG market for years. Everyone wanting to "just get 10% of WoWs subscribers" which never happened. WoW is anomalous.
As far as "clones" go, LoL and Hearthstone are both clones, you know. DOTA was actually out waaaaay before LoL and Magic had died 3 or 4 times over before Hearthstone was even conceived. So that doesn't really speak to the whole idea of "Why would you ever copy a popular game?"
1. MMORPG =/ Theme Park only. Yes, the Theme Park MMO is dead - and it couldn't die soon enough. It's time for a new MMORPG that isn't WoW+Token Innovations.
2. You've just illistrated why almost every developer goes the road constantly traveled. Yes, I get it - MMOs are now risky business. Any public company answerable to business men and stockholders who prioritize 2-3% steady growth annually over everything else will produce the same rehashed garbage that's historically sold well... until it doesn't.
3. Saying Hearthstone is a clone is a stretch - it's like saying Magic the Gathering was a clone of Poker cause they're both card games. And even if you want to say Hearthstone was a clone of MTG, it was a single iteration to make a very inaccessable game much more accessable.
LoL, you're absolutely right - LoL took Dota and made it accessable to everyone... exactly like what WoW did to EQ. It was seeing a true need in the market and catering to it. As both titles prove, a *single* well done iteration like that can be wildly successful, but going the "clone of a clone" route only makes suits and stockholders happy - until they realize they jumped on a bandwagon that collapsed on itself. Everyone who's put out MMOs in the last 3-4 years in particular had struggled to recoup their losses.
It'll be the same for this new age MOBA/Card Game fad.
Developers: We can't tell you exactly tell you the formula for fun, no more than a patron at a resturaunt can tell a master chef what makes a perfect dish - we'll know it when we taste it though. One suggestion: Stop looking to create the next "WoW+Innovation."... it's not working. Use another idea for your jumping point - people are hungry for something else.
What are you talking about? No AAA dev is trying to create the next WoW anymore.
Now they are doing MOBA, card games, instanced pvp games, co-op RPGs.
1. Not true. Plenty of MMOs are still coming down the line from big companies - just none with an impending release. The genre is not dead - it's just rebuffed a bunch of developers who want to have their cake and eat it too. A cashcow like WoW by taking zero risks.
2. Sadly, too true... and the stupid part? They never learn. By the time something hits it big (like LoL or Hearthstone), it's usually too late to try and clone it (Heroes of the Storm being an exception... but it's Blizzard. They don't have to play by the rules. They've built a legacy over about 30 years of excellence that they're only just beginning to squander). With every passing year, gamers get better at spotting the knock-off cashgrabs. They stick with the one that brought them to the dance, then - when they tire of it - they try something 100% different.
1. Yes true. Whether you want to accept it or not, even people in the industry have said that the Themepark is dead. Actually, at Pax East there was an MMORPG panel where I believe they had said that Wildstar would be the last AAA Themepark. Soooo, yeah, sorry.
2. Games take a long time to develop. If you believe that people are sitting on their hands, waiting for something to make it big so they can copy it, you're wrong. That being said, Mobile gaming is impacting gaming, as a whole, in a huge way. Now it's all about microsessions. We've got these games that take us 5 or 10 minutes at a time to play, and after that we can walk away. I used to call my iPad my iPoop for that exact reason. However, in reality, you end up spending 5-10 minutes on 5-10 different games, adding up to plenty of hours. You might not have time to raid, but I would venture to say that most people are spending more time in mobile games on a daily basis than what it would take to complete some raids. I really don't think it has anything to do with knock-offs. It has everything to do with companies overestimating the size of the MMORPG market for years. Everyone wanting to "just get 10% of WoWs subscribers" which never happened. WoW is anomalous.
As far as "clones" go, LoL and Hearthstone are both clones, you know. DOTA was actually out waaaaay before LoL and Magic had died 3 or 4 times over before Hearthstone was even conceived. So that doesn't really speak to the whole idea of "Why would you ever copy a popular game?"
1. MMORPG =/ Theme Park only. Yes, the Theme Park MMO is dead - and it couldn't die soon enough. It's time for a new MMORPG that isn't WoW+Token Innovations.
2. You've just illistrated why almost every developer goes the road constantly traveled. Yes, I get it - MMOs are now risky business. Any public company answerable to business men and stockholders who prioritize 2-3% steady growth annually over everything else will produce the same rehashed garbage that's historically sold well... until it doesn't.
3. Saying Hearthstone is a clone is a stretch - it's like saying Magic the Gathering was a clone of Poker cause they're both card games. And even if you want to say Hearthstone was a clone of MTG, it was a single iteration to make a very inaccessable game much more accessable.
LoL, you're absolutely right - LoL took Dota and made it accessable to everyone... exactly like what WoW did to EQ. It was seeing a true need in the market and catering to it. As both titles prove, a *single* well done iteration like that can be wildly successful, but going the "clone of a clone" route only makes suits and stockholders happy - until they realize they jumped on a bandwagon that collapsed on itself. Everyone who's put out MMOs in the last 3-4 years in particular had struggled to recoup their losses.
It'll be the same for this new age MOBA/Card Game fad.
Not a stretch as long as we're saying that HotS is a clone of LoL. Hearthstone and HotS are both simply games that make more complex games accessible to the masses.
Oh, and I understand that Themeparks don't equal MMORPG, but until it's been proven that sandboxes are going to somehow save the genre, the genre is definitely a defcon 3.
Developers: We can't tell you exactly tell you the formula for fun, no more than a patron at a resturaunt can tell a master chef what makes a perfect dish - we'll know it when we taste it though. One suggestion: Stop looking to create the next "WoW+Innovation."... it's not working. Use another idea for your jumping point - people are hungry for something else.
What are you talking about? No AAA dev is trying to create the next WoW anymore.
Now they are doing MOBA, card games, instanced pvp games, co-op RPGs.
1. Not true. Plenty of MMOs are still coming down the line from big companies - just none with an impending release. The genre is not dead - it's just rebuffed a bunch of developers who want to have their cake and eat it too. A cashcow like WoW by taking zero risks.
2. Sadly, too true... and the stupid part? They never learn. By the time something hits it big (like LoL or Hearthstone), it's usually too late to try and clone it (Heroes of the Storm being an exception... but it's Blizzard. They don't have to play by the rules. They've built a legacy over about 30 years of excellence that they're only just beginning to squander). With every passing year, gamers get better at spotting the knock-off cashgrabs. They stick with the one that brought them to the dance, then - when they tire of it - they try something 100% different.
1. Yes true. Whether you want to accept it or not, even people in the industry have said that the Themepark is dead. Actually, at Pax East there was an MMORPG panel where I believe they had said that Wildstar would be the last AAA Themepark. Soooo, yeah, sorry.
2. Games take a long time to develop. If you believe that people are sitting on their hands, waiting for something to make it big so they can copy it, you're wrong. That being said, Mobile gaming is impacting gaming, as a whole, in a huge way. Now it's all about microsessions. We've got these games that take us 5 or 10 minutes at a time to play, and after that we can walk away. I used to call my iPad my iPoop for that exact reason. However, in reality, you end up spending 5-10 minutes on 5-10 different games, adding up to plenty of hours. You might not have time to raid, but I would venture to say that most people are spending more time in mobile games on a daily basis than what it would take to complete some raids. I really don't think it has anything to do with knock-offs. It has everything to do with companies overestimating the size of the MMORPG market for years. Everyone wanting to "just get 10% of WoWs subscribers" which never happened. WoW is anomalous.
As far as "clones" go, LoL and Hearthstone are both clones, you know. DOTA was actually out waaaaay before LoL and Magic had died 3 or 4 times over before Hearthstone was even conceived. So that doesn't really speak to the whole idea of "Why would you ever copy a popular game?"
1. MMORPG =/ Theme Park only. Yes, the Theme Park MMO is dead - and it couldn't die soon enough. It's time for a new MMORPG that isn't WoW+Token Innovations.
2. You've just illistrated why almost every developer goes the road constantly traveled. Yes, I get it - MMOs are now risky business. Any public company answerable to business men and stockholders who prioritize 2-3% steady growth annually over everything else will produce the same rehashed garbage that's historically sold well... until it doesn't.
3. Saying Hearthstone is a clone is a stretch - it's like saying Magic the Gathering was a clone of Poker cause they're both card games. And even if you want to say Hearthstone was a clone of MTG, it was a single iteration to make a very inaccessable game much more accessable.
LoL, you're absolutely right - LoL took Dota and made it accessable to everyone... exactly like what WoW did to EQ. It was seeing a true need in the market and catering to it. As both titles prove, a *single* well done iteration like that can be wildly successful, but going the "clone of a clone" route only makes suits and stockholders happy - until they realize they jumped on a bandwagon that collapsed on itself. Everyone who's put out MMOs in the last 3-4 years in particular had struggled to recoup their losses.
It'll be the same for this new age MOBA/Card Game fad.
Not a stretch as long as we're saying that HotS is a clone of LoL. Hearthstone and HotS are both simply games that make more complex games accessible to the masses.
Oh, and I understand that Themeparks don't equal MMORPG, but until it's been proven that sandboxes are going to somehow save the genre, the genre is definitely a defcon 3.
It doesn't really matter what we call Hearthstone. Blizzard gets to break the rules. They're cloning LoL and they're cloning TF2... and they will be wildly successful. Why? Because Blizzard. Mike Morheime can hire one million people to take craps into a box, slap a Blizzard logo and it will be sold out in a month (that's my theory with Warlords of Draenor, anyway)
The other not-Blizzard developers need to stop cloning clones - LoL and Hearthstone took fun but completely inaccessable games and broke them open. If they decided to start developing a game to jump on that bandwagon just now or anytime up to and including 1 year ago, it's already too late. By the time your game hits the market, it'll just be another knock-off.
And I disagree - the genre itself is at no risk. Millions and millions of people play them. If no worthwhile game surfaces, they may fade away and play other games, but an MMO comes out that recaptures that fun feeling that got them hooked in the first place, they'll be back and you'll have another cashcow on your hands for second-rate developers to clone for a decade.
I am the 1st generation to grow up with dig-dug, pacman, space invaders, astroid at the arcades.
I am the generation that started playing computer games when they were dos with no graphics.
I know what a good story is.
I know what good game mechanics are.
I know how games have improved upon as time goes by.
I know where games have fallen down in the pursuit of maintaining legitimacy.
So it is with this knowledge I can pass judgement on today's games and delivery systems.
I am OLDSCHOOL.
UO was good in it's time but never innovated beyond top down perspective. The systems in the game were some of the best around for long term game play and player freedom.
ArcheAge came surprisingly close to UO.
It had many similar systems. It expanded on UO by allowing for farming and various ways of transport, battle, and gameplay. For any UO vet I would suggest ArcheAge is worth a look.
However...ArcheAge fell into the bait and switch category for me and many others. Before you say "there are ways to get around it"....you shouldn't have to in a good game with good delivery which is my point.
Basically they offered early start and with subscription you gain access to player housing and secure farming as well as higher labor points. This seems ok at first, but then people starting finding all sorts of loopholes to get around most of the systems. These included huge bugs in the game that allowed for people to amass a fortune and make the best gear in game. This gear and money would normally take a year of failures and huge investment of in game resource as well as real life cash shop purchases at the higher end.
That's where things took a huge dive for any Vet. If there is no even playing field in a game with pvp oriented around conquest, then there is no point in playing it.
Furthermore...the need for a cash shop to keep up with cheaters when you are already paying for a monthly subscription sunk the game fast.
ArcheAge gets an A- for game creation and an F on cash shop mechanics of pay to win.
It really could have been that great blend of oldschool and the new. Very sad to see such a thing.
Only thing I would have improved in ArcheAge game design-wise would have been more EQ style dungeons.
If they killed all the bugs. Made some more deep dungeons, and killed the pay to win portion and cash shop I would be back in there having fun.
Games I am still hopeful for.
Shroud of the Avatar, Gloria Victis, Camelot Unchained, Crowfall, Pantheon, and EQNext.
Not saying any of those stand out yet. There is a while before any come out. Good to see Dev's still pushing titles with deep systems in them.
Comments
Oh I'm sorry delete am I supposed to check in with you before I post?Oh he just can't handle when someone doesn't agree with his opinion. And I made it completely clear I feel the same way towards "old" and "new" players, so his comment is nothing more than QQing over nothing.
As an "old school" gamer, I would agree with Tasslehoff that Delete does a significant amount of whining. Actually, I have 4 kids, so whenever I do read one of his posts it makes me angry and I want to send him to his room.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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We want main stream budget games that are as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We want non-dumbed down games that are as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We want games with features that make them as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We hate most everything out there because they aren't as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
We want the genre to produce games that are as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
And while similar topics get posted sometimes by same or different people (that's the way the Internet works, son - it's like a bigger version of Instagram and Snapchat), we all share one thing in common: we're looking for a game that's as fun to play as the eye-opening games like UO, EQ and WoW were at their time.
And since you looped us all together anyway, using 'we' is okay.
And we've run out of new things to complain about because every new MMO that comes out seems to run out of new things to screw up that the last ones hadn't.
I hope this has given you some insight into how us old folks operate. Now I'm going to drink some damn prune juice, read my Facebook feed and wonder why your generation has done such stupid crap like making selfies a thing and Justin Bieber popular.
Lol
If you were being ironic, this is an amazing post. If not....
A few months back I played Vanilla WoW, that game has so much content that games like ESO and FF14 would have to release four expansions.
Playing casually a few hours a day, some days maybe an hour, and maybe on weekends three or four. A little bit of chatting and a little helping lower Guild members, It would take :
3 days to get to level 10
2 weeks to get to level 20
1 day for each level past 20
2 day for each level past 30........And so on.
4-6 months total playing that way.
The game is made to level slower BECAUSE THERE ARE ENUFF QUEST !
The game was harder where you had to wait for someone to come on line to help or make a new friend by asking them to help.
You could, choose between three different race areas to quest in.
Come to think of it, if you gave the graphics a face lift for Vanilla WoW, it would blow all newer mmos out of the water. Maybe reduce the old quest would also help. Now this is an OLD old school game !
This was a world players could live in. Very few carrot-on-a-stick, without fast leveling.
It's funny to me that vanilla WoW is now considered "old school". It makes sense. The game has changed a lot over the last 10 years. It's just funny to see people calling it time consuming when reducing the amount of time and effort it took to get to max level was one of the genre changing design decisions.
Anyway, slowing down the amount of time it takes to level and making sure there are a million fetch quests to fill in that time seems like an awful idea to me at least. Leveling was my least favorite thing about WoW. PvP, dungeons, raids and gear progression were my favorite things about that game. I prefer a different style of game these days, but I'll just say that I definitely don't miss the days of extremely tedious quest grinding.
But it had bright, pretty colors and it had arcade style combat. And it had pop culture references up the wazoo and everybody ate it up.
Now people put vanilla wow in the same category as old school MMOs like uo, swg, ac? No thanks lol
I started with Uo/EQ an despite that I always find myself on the oppisite side of the arguement from the "Old School" crowd here. I esspecially find the juvinile arguement style of claiming old school games were for "adults" especially ironic. It's the type of comment my 13 year old daughter makes to her younger sibling all the time.
I do however empathize with what the "vets" are trying to say, to a certain degree. I just wish instead of holding there ground and claiming things like forced grouping, non-instanced camps, yelling for groups, corpse runs, harsh death penalties and long leveling times were what made old school games great they would just simply stick with saying Community, Immersion, and Interdependancy aren't as prevelant now as they were then. I could agree with that statement and get behind it. But I will never play another game that has Corpse runs in they way EQ had corpse runs. That mechanic was broken and poorly designed. While it might have provided a sense of danger and urgency when deep in the bowls of the dungeoun it was far too punitive to be an effective game mechanic for anyone but masocists.
This belief that these old mechanics are the only way to move the genre forward is a fallacy. We moved on from these mechanics not because the goal was to eliminate Community, Immersion or Interdependancy but because they were poorly designed mechanics that were more likely to chase people out of the game than they were to encourage the former.
Figure out what it was at the core of the experience that made is so much fun. Was it forced grouping that made it fun or the fact that you explored deep in a dungeon with others that were all focused and prepared for a difficult task. Wasn't it more a factor of the fact that your actions had meaning positive or negative for the groups success or failure. Did you really need to lose half your XP on death in order to "force" every other player to focus? Did you really need to be the only one that could "heal" in order to make your actions have meaning?
Its too intellectually lazy to simply say, EQ was fun, EQ had corpse runs, camping, long leveling, and harsh death penalties. Therefore the only games that are fun as those that have corpse runs, camping, long leveling and harsh death penalties. To champion those mechanics because you can endure the downsides without it ruining your fun is completely discounting the number of people for whom those mechanics pretty much made the game unplayable.
I think there is a market for both. Even some of the new MMOers are getting older and may not see the love they once had for twitch games. Also there is the old school gamer who has not had an MMO made from them in many years. Of corse old school games will have a smaller market but like the games of old, EQ, DAoC, UO, they have some of the best communities I have seen and if given a quality option, I think a modernized old school MMO would draw a mature gaming crowd. Only way to capture that is to make teaming matter and IMO thats what most new MMOs is missing.
Really cool story Bro. Your opinions have been noted. Unfortunetly that's not what gamers apparently want today. There has to be a reason why all these developers are staying away from making an "old school" game for you "old school" gamers. I think it has to be more than to laugh at you guys, there must be another reason! What could it be? I don't maybe there isn't a market for it?I think it has nothing to do with the want for that type of game its just about the money. Games are made now to grab the casual gamer. Why? There is more of them then hardcore. Right now I am talking about time to play not mind set. So they look at what can net the largest number of players and design a game that way. Doing so has lost some of the magic that made old school MMOs so great. Now dont get me wrong, MMOs have made some great leaps forward I would not like to see removed from any MMO. This does not mean there is not a market for an old school game with modern twist. I think the market could float more then a few of that type of game. Devs need to get out of the mid set of wanting to be the next WoW. I dont mean game play, I mean trying to be the next top dog with the most number of players. We are starting to see that shift but I think even there with the niche games, to much focus is being done to make PvP games. Its cheap content and I get why they are doing it. We need a new modern twist on EQ1, DAoC or UO. Where teaming matters and who you make friends with matters.
It's 50% irony, 50% not so.
No irony now - it's not a big mystery: if you want MMO vets to like your game, make an MMO that's as fun as hell. That's it.
I'm an old school UO, EQ and WoW player... but I play plenty of modernish games. Heroes of the Storm, Hearthstone, Skyrim, Dragon Age Inquisition, Fallouts, and have little negative to say about any of them. Why? Because they're actually fun games.
It's not my fault that hardly any MMO has come out since 2004 that is actually fun to play and doesn't suck ass. What do you want from me? If Devs spent a little less time trying to clone WoW and then come up with lists explaining in pain-steaking detail all the ways their MMO was different from WoW after everyone who's played it for a few hours says: "This is just like WoW."... maybe we'd have a modern age MMO that was fun as hell.
Until then, well... I got prune juice, Facebook and irritable bowel sydrome. I'll bitch on the forums as much as I like until someone makes an actual fun MMO again. Because I love the genre, even if developers can't seem to figure out why.
Hey I appreciate you putting this is a logical well thought out discussion and not how the op comes off, it's very refreshing. As I've stated I don't have an issue with "old school" game elements or player. My issues come from the "old" and "new" players who think and act like to OP that their way is the only way and everyone else is wrong.
I I think the issue is us gamers (I don't consider myself "old school" cause that would put me in the same category as the op) are getting older and some if not most of us are having families, jobs and a life outside of video games, we don't have the time to invest in what the op wants, developers know this. The newer gamers (not all) want things now, their (again not all) social skills lack the skills we had because of the technology they are using in a daily bases. You combine these and you can see why the market is why it is. The developers are not blind to this. But hey just my opinion on the subject.
I certainly think there's a reality to this - but like a good book, a good game finds time for itself. In 10 more years, the average 'old school MMOer' will be in their 40s. 30 more years, their 60s... and planning retirement. When I retire, I plan to do a lot of gaming. Sure, I may take more Bio breaks and I may need to pick the OP classes to not completely suck compared to the grandkids thanks to arthritis and/or cataracts, but gaming has been a major part of my life since I was 4.
It hasn't changed now that I'm in my 30s. Doubt it's going to change in the other half of my life either.
Developers: We can't tell you exactly tell you the formula for fun, no more than a patron at a resturaunt can tell a master chef what makes a perfect dish - we'll know it when we taste it though. One suggestion: Stop looking to create the next "WoW+Innovation."... it's not working. Look to other inspirations - EvE. UO. Or take the horse in a completely different direction. That's how we got EQ/WoW in the first place. Sure, it's risky, but you seem to want to have your cake and eat it too - a cash cow like WoW, but you wanna be 100% safe and just essentially clone WoW. Doesn't fly. To get your own cash cow, you're gonna have to take some risks.
What are you talking about? No AAA dev is trying to create the next WoW anymore.
Now they are doing MOBA, card games, instanced pvp games, co-op RPGs.
1. Not true. Plenty of MMOs are still coming down the line from big companies - just none with an impending release. The genre is not dead - it's just rebuffed a bunch of developers who want to have their cake and eat it too. A cashcow like WoW by taking zero risks.
2. Sadly, too true... and the stupid part? They never learn. By the time something hits it big (like LoL or Hearthstone), it's usually too late to try and clone it (Heroes of the Storm being an exception... but it's Blizzard. They don't have to play by the rules. They've built a legacy over about 30 years of excellence that they're only just beginning to squander). With every passing year, gamers get better at spotting the knock-off cashgrabs. They stick with the one that brought them to the dance, then - when they tire of it - they try something 100% different.
1) Like what? Don't tell me EQN
2) Why sad ... isn't change a good thing?
EQN (why not mention it? I'd hope the: "It's vaporware, the Internet told me so" argument isn't quite the extent of your research) and Blade and Soul are the next big studio releases. While it's not quite the popping market it used to be, clearly ideas aren't dead - and crowd-source funding has never been bigger. You'd be surprised what passionate developers can do, given $5 million dollars and no suits/stockholders to answer to.
I'm looking forward to seeing the results of these - I'm sure they'll be better than Aion, TERA, Wildstar and Archage put together.
And change is great, but only a handful of people changed. The rest are just jumping on the bandwagon, picking a title like LOL, Hearthstone or TF2, throwing a new skin on it with some token innovations and letting it fly. There's no reason to believe that the same thing that happened to the 12-20 WoW Clones that rolled out in the last 10 years won't happen to them.
EQN ... well .. if it see the light of the day (which is not for certain .. but i am not going to say it definitely won't) .. it is ONE.
Blade & Soul .. really? We are talking about AAA development .. getting a pantry $5M from crowd-sourcing does not count. In fact, if a game needs crowd-sourcing ... it is not AAA.
I never say there is no indie small projects, did I?
1. Yes true. Whether you want to accept it or not, even people in the industry have said that the Themepark is dead. Actually, at Pax East there was an MMORPG panel where I believe they had said that Wildstar would be the last AAA Themepark. Soooo, yeah, sorry.
2. Games take a long time to develop. If you believe that people are sitting on their hands, waiting for something to make it big so they can copy it, you're wrong. That being said, Mobile gaming is impacting gaming, as a whole, in a huge way. Now it's all about microsessions. We've got these games that take us 5 or 10 minutes at a time to play, and after that we can walk away. I used to call my iPad my iPoop for that exact reason. However, in reality, you end up spending 5-10 minutes on 5-10 different games, adding up to plenty of hours. You might not have time to raid, but I would venture to say that most people are spending more time in mobile games on a daily basis than what it would take to complete some raids. I really don't think it has anything to do with knock-offs. It has everything to do with companies overestimating the size of the MMORPG market for years. Everyone wanting to "just get 10% of WoWs subscribers" which never happened. WoW is anomalous.
As far as "clones" go, LoL and Hearthstone are both clones, you know. DOTA was actually out waaaaay before LoL and Magic had died 3 or 4 times over before Hearthstone was even conceived. So that doesn't really speak to the whole idea of "Why would you ever copy a popular game?"
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Blade and Soul is being developed by NCSoft.
And no, you never said anything about those like most people don't. If it's not AAA, it's not worth mentioning. Another sad reality.
1. MMORPG =/ Theme Park only. Yes, the Theme Park MMO is dead - and it couldn't die soon enough. It's time for a new MMORPG that isn't WoW+Token Innovations.
2. You've just illistrated why almost every developer goes the road constantly traveled. Yes, I get it - MMOs are now risky business. Any public company answerable to business men and stockholders who prioritize 2-3% steady growth annually over everything else will produce the same rehashed garbage that's historically sold well... until it doesn't.
3. Saying Hearthstone is a clone is a stretch - it's like saying Magic the Gathering was a clone of Poker cause they're both card games. And even if you want to say Hearthstone was a clone of MTG, it was a single iteration to make a very inaccessable game much more accessable.
LoL, you're absolutely right - LoL took Dota and made it accessable to everyone... exactly like what WoW did to EQ. It was seeing a true need in the market and catering to it. As both titles prove, a *single* well done iteration like that can be wildly successful, but going the "clone of a clone" route only makes suits and stockholders happy - until they realize they jumped on a bandwagon that collapsed on itself. Everyone who's put out MMOs in the last 3-4 years in particular had struggled to recoup their losses.
It'll be the same for this new age MOBA/Card Game fad.
Not a stretch as long as we're saying that HotS is a clone of LoL. Hearthstone and HotS are both simply games that make more complex games accessible to the masses.
Oh, and I understand that Themeparks don't equal MMORPG, but until it's been proven that sandboxes are going to somehow save the genre, the genre is definitely a defcon 3.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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It doesn't really matter what we call Hearthstone. Blizzard gets to break the rules. They're cloning LoL and they're cloning TF2... and they will be wildly successful. Why? Because Blizzard. Mike Morheime can hire one million people to take craps into a box, slap a Blizzard logo and it will be sold out in a month (that's my theory with Warlords of Draenor, anyway)
The other not-Blizzard developers need to stop cloning clones - LoL and Hearthstone took fun but completely inaccessable games and broke them open. If they decided to start developing a game to jump on that bandwagon just now or anytime up to and including 1 year ago, it's already too late. By the time your game hits the market, it'll just be another knock-off.
And I disagree - the genre itself is at no risk. Millions and millions of people play them. If no worthwhile game surfaces, they may fade away and play other games, but an MMO comes out that recaptures that fun feeling that got them hooked in the first place, they'll be back and you'll have another cashcow on your hands for second-rate developers to clone for a decade.
I am the 1st generation to grow up with dig-dug, pacman, space invaders, astroid at the arcades.
I am the generation that started playing computer games when they were dos with no graphics.
I know what a good story is.
I know what good game mechanics are.
I know how games have improved upon as time goes by.
I know where games have fallen down in the pursuit of maintaining legitimacy.
So it is with this knowledge I can pass judgement on today's games and delivery systems.
I am OLDSCHOOL.
UO was good in it's time but never innovated beyond top down perspective. The systems in the game were some of the best around for long term game play and player freedom.
ArcheAge came surprisingly close to UO.
It had many similar systems. It expanded on UO by allowing for farming and various ways of transport, battle, and gameplay. For any UO vet I would suggest ArcheAge is worth a look.
However...ArcheAge fell into the bait and switch category for me and many others. Before you say "there are ways to get around it"....you shouldn't have to in a good game with good delivery which is my point.
Basically they offered early start and with subscription you gain access to player housing and secure farming as well as higher labor points. This seems ok at first, but then people starting finding all sorts of loopholes to get around most of the systems. These included huge bugs in the game that allowed for people to amass a fortune and make the best gear in game. This gear and money would normally take a year of failures and huge investment of in game resource as well as real life cash shop purchases at the higher end.
That's where things took a huge dive for any Vet. If there is no even playing field in a game with pvp oriented around conquest, then there is no point in playing it.
Furthermore...the need for a cash shop to keep up with cheaters when you are already paying for a monthly subscription sunk the game fast.
ArcheAge gets an A- for game creation and an F on cash shop mechanics of pay to win.
It really could have been that great blend of oldschool and the new. Very sad to see such a thing.
Only thing I would have improved in ArcheAge game design-wise would have been more EQ style dungeons.
If they killed all the bugs. Made some more deep dungeons, and killed the pay to win portion and cash shop I would be back in there having fun.
Games I am still hopeful for.
Shroud of the Avatar, Gloria Victis, Camelot Unchained, Crowfall, Pantheon, and EQNext.
Not saying any of those stand out yet. There is a while before any come out. Good to see Dev's still pushing titles with deep systems in them.