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Why I dislike PvP in Eve...
Mylon
Member Posts: 975
A lot of the deeper gameplay elements in Eve are reserved for the players that can play in 0.0 space. This includes being able to manufacture stuff fullly from sratch (instead of having to buy the 2 minerals that only come from 0.0), having player owned structures, and being able to fight more challenging enemies, at least outside of missions.
However, the most repulsive part about 0.0 that makes it unfun for most players is the lawlessness. I'm not talking about the open style of PvP, but I'm talking about many different factors. Like how sec status is no indication of a player's trustworthiness (no sec hit for killing a player in 0.0, or killing a player in a group), warp core destabalizers are such an all-or-nothing approach, and it's generally impossible to control a system aside from camping the gate (once a player is loose in a system they can be downright impossible to hunt down), making gate camping the most effective way to guard player owned structures or otherwise defenseless ships, and the possibility that any unknown player could be scouting a system and making instas for a system so less scrupulus people can use them and make a strike force to threaten the people holding a system (again, making gate camping the most viable strategy).
If it was more possible to guage a player's trustworthiness, we might see more alliances not using the NBSI (not blue, shoot it) policy. And likewise there would be players that could actively hunt PC pirates and bring some order to 0.0 space. It wouldn't be safe, sure, but if security rating changes applied in 0.0 as well, it would be more informative and allow players to enforce the law. Likewise, there would have to be some means of hunting down pirates to keep them from escaping. Warping is too much of a magic teleport that doesn't tell people observing the warper where the warper is going.
In short, it's so much easier to harass anonymously and without retribution than it is to enforce any kind of order. There are not enough tools for players to interact with one another to make 0.0 safe even if they wanted to, short of the NBSI policies which only make the area safe for members of an alliance.
Comments
No.
Quite simply, 0.0 is a place where there is no police, a place which is in control (originally until players come in) by pirate cartels (NPCs) and it makes sense that you get no security hits when you engage in criminal acivity. There's no one there to see it, so why would it be recorded? There's plenty of space with Concord and other peaceful factions patrolling high security systems, but how the hell do people build an empire in 0.0 if you start enforcing the area?
This is what makes it amazing. You can go out there, with other people and if you're good enough working as a team, and if you persist, you will build an empire where there was none before. Warp disruptors are there to stop people running away when they start losing in combat, how else do you fight? About a quarter of eve PvP consists of whimps like Burn Eden flying around with full racks of low slots with Warp Core Stabilisers (WCS) to run away because unless they gang up on some guy, if they're met with equal force, they run!
Solar Systems are very large! Of course it's easy for someone to fly to some distant place far away form scanners or warp from location to location making it hard to find them, that's what covert ops frigates with scan probe launchers are for! Seriously if you're too whimpish to counter a direct threat in 0.0, it's quite simple, don't go there. Hell, the alliances currently in 0.0 are coping. They fight for their land. You want a reduction on NBSI policies so u can come into space people lost their ships for and just mine the valuable ore u put no effort into attaining? What are you, stupid?
Eve is good because reward is directly proportional to risk, CCP has laboured long to make this true. Of course 'deeper gameplay elements' are reserved for 0.0. But i know loads of friends in my alliance that have barely 4m SP and are already here. They are ready to put their corp and alliance above their personal wallet and thus they succeed, if everything was easily accessible to everyone, what would be the point? What would people strive for? The point is you only get what you put into things, there are no easy ways to wealth in real life unless you're born rich, Eve is the same, except born rich is an impossibility here, you all start with a mere 1000 ISK, except some people go out to 0.0 ASAP and start making 40 million per day, while whimps like you stay in high security places whining and earnign much less money (usually, unless u own a t2 BPO or something).
Please, next time before you post well written nonsense, think about the other side of the argument. You save a lot of people time, and you've probably scared away some people from the game too. Fool.
The OP gave an opinion. You gave some very good reasons why your opinion is different. Unfortunately, you also felt the need to engage in insults and name-calling. Stick to the issues, please. The rest only makes your arguments weaker.
Too many cheifs and not enough indians I say..... Everyone thinks that if they can pilot a battleship that they should run a corp. Eve is about massive corporations dukeing it out, but from what I see is just skirmishes mainly and nothing really substancial when it comes to wars. One of the only reasons why I think EVE is so popular is not because of the PvP but mainly because it reaches a HUGE AUDIENCE.
Why do i say HUGE AUDIENCE?????
Because I can play the game the way I want to on my piece of crap computer heres the stats
Celeron 1.3 ghz
512mb pc 133 sdram
128mb geforce 4000mx
40mb HDD
WinXP home
Now how many people play popular MMO's with this set up.... Not many. The only other popular/decent GRAPHICAL (yes anyone can play Ultima Online though). I can use my imagination but I do need at least some kind of graphics to help me along some. (I guess I'm not that imaginative
). I can also play guild wars just fine with my machine with all of the graphics turned down. It looks likecrap but at least I can still play it. BTW GW seems to be high on the MMORPG.COM list.. maybe it has something to do with the system requirements being just as lax as EVE..... WHO knows 
Because there are indeed millions upon millions of people that play MMO's in the USA and most of them have really good computers in the $1,500-$3,000 range. Yes I know that just because you have an expensive computer doesnt mean it can run MMO's effectively but for the most part the money is the 2 gigs of ram and 256mb vid card.
Sorry I got off topic yes the PvP in this game at least to me...PvP DOES SUCK HARD!!!!!!! theres no way to really sneak up on people and since systems in the game are bottle necked its like theres just one gate camp after another. Would be nice if I could warp to a system at an angle into wherever in the system i would want to go rather than having to move though warpgates that could be camped all the time. I doubt thats what real warp travel would entail. Think of it races of people constructing warpgates in the middle of nowhere instead of near other planets or areas of interest but maybe thats just me. Seems that the reason why the gates are set up this way is because of the lack of current technology when it comes to bandwidth and all that stuff. I mean the 3 words in MMO in most peoples minds IMHO would think would mean massive 3 way 100 people vs. 100people vs. 100people battles either on a battlefield in a forest somewere, or a massive space fleets duking it out over territory. Unfortunately due to governent regulations on bandwidth and the cost of servers nowadays if you would even attempt those kinds of PvP battles THAT MOST PEOPLE THAT PLAY MMO's EXPECT. The games would be heaping piles of crap and wouldnt play worth a dam. Even if everyone who played MMO's had rediculously fast computers and internet connections all the game would still lag becuase WE AS PEOPLE DONT HAVE ACCESS TO THAT LEVEL OF TECHNOLOGY YET. Go ahead and spend a week and round up 500 people and put them in one system in the eve universe and have them all shooting at each other in a MASSIVE WAY
what would u think would happen...... it would probably laaaaaaaaaaaaaaag out. DONT GET ME WRONG I dont think MMO's suk because of this I do however think thats what the majority of MMO fans out there want when it comes to PvP. I will patiently wait until that day comes. (or be 6 feet under dead of old age because I cant save any money BECAUSE OF BILLS LIKE FOOD AND GAS MONEY) oh ... lol sorry bout that heh.
Then with the new servers that CCP has put in... all that will do is help eliviate the lag that is present between .5 and .4 systems due to high (10 or so if you consider that massive which I dont) numbers of people that gate camp and the servers will also help with the heavy core traffic that currently exists in empire space.
I get very little lag in .5 space for the most part even on my piece of crap computer. (SHOCKING TRULY AWESOME)
Only when theres like 50 peeps in one system is where i get lag. Could be because of my computer not sure though.
Anyhow my gripes with PvP specifically in this game are as follows
1. warp bubbling gate camps ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO GET THOUGH OR EVEN RUN FROM.
The only way to get though those types of determined gate camps is with sheer numbers. Even with warp core stabbies maxed out your still screwed. Good luck gathering peeps with huge amounts of corporations with like 4 people in em
2. battles 90% of the time take place too far from your own ship.
For some strange reason maybe its because of my days playing decent freespace but the battles between the ships and PvP for the most part take place pretty far away. The person who usually ends up killing you in PvP is someone else sniping you from like 100km or so away with artiliery.
3. warp jammer, heavy nosforetu
10% of the close up battles you will fight in PvP will most certianly mean your death 1 v 1 unless you have equiped your ship with warp jammers and heavy energy vampires which in turn makes the battle turn in to 2 people throwing spitwads at eachother with both stealing eachothers energy. (yawn)
Oh also for all you people that think that people with crappy computers slow the game down for people with more expensive computers....... your probably RIGHT but you wont have to worry about us cheap skates for much longer becuase when the next gen MMO's come out for PC well never have a prayer to run them. Huxley, D+D (would like to at least play it even though i know it will probably suck ), Star Trek Online, for example are all games that I unfortunately would probably never be able to play.
I could save up and get a cheap azz athlon 3000+ 2.0ghz cookie cutter prefab system from walmart and put a cheap azz video card and 512mb more of ram in it to run those games but I still think it wont be enough to run them.....gunna take a while to save up for a decent computer. Might start a thread on wheither I should wait and see if getting an XBOX 360 would be good for getting it for MMO's. Huxley and FFXI are comming out for it just wondering if any more are comming out for it as well. Would rather spend $400 on an XBOX if they had any decent MMO's than plunk down alot of money for a whamer jammer computer to play the up and comming mmo's on....... meh........
P.S... all of the CAPS IN THIS POST were for emphasis and were not used for yelling..... I just hate using itallics
Is there an MMO that out there that isn't affected by Xao Ping Wang and their money grubbing macro bots?
http://wow.stratics.com/content/features/editorials/mf/
Just say no to ingame money/mob farming.... the site says it all
NoctusMax
You're right, people in bigger corps wiht more resources have advantage over smaller corps with less resources, logical? yes.
And of course, how could we avoid evolution in what u call 'refining tactics'.
Caylous.
1) bubbles, well, tbh how do u catch an interceptor that jumps through and then takes under a second to warp off? it's impossible to lock them. Bubbles have let that be, now you can truely lock down a system, and the first poster was telling us about lack of game mechanics to defend territory.
2) sniping usually occurs in fleet battles where both sides call primary targets and u got about 2-5 seconds to warp out before u die, if these happened close up no one would be warping out cause of warp disruptors. It's also quite natural, i'm sorry but if you lack intel on who you're about to fight, you're badly prepared, we always have cov ops pilots infront and behind so we know who we're up against and can fit accordingly.
3) TBH the only popular nos ships are Dominixes, and the nossing setup is probably the worst that the dominix can fit. If someoen fits 2 noses on an apoc, they do it as a protection against HACs and tech II BC or other small ships, as otherwise a hac could easily take down a BS. Warp disruptors are there to avoid your enemy warping off as u start winning, else u wouldn't ever manage to kill anything. Back to NOSes, i hardly ever use them in BS vs BS fights, i just fit a setup that kills the enemy in under 30s, only novices fit noses tbh, because if ur up against a guy who knows what he's doing, ur noses won't take effect until way after u'v died, so never.
Now about lag, CCP on 21st feb is upgrading servers, and there will be no lag, it's that simple. Skirmishes were around lately because fleet battles during times when there are 21000 people online were impossible. Now however they will be back, and a lot of old players will be back too.
Edit: Oh and 4 man corps never get much done, i'm in acorp with 100 people, allied with corps that have over 400 members, so ur argument there is wrong. PvP is very nice as it is (if the upgrade were taken into account)
Oh and sorry about insulting the OP with my first post.
imagine if players can put sentry guns to shoot everything that comes into system if it has negative standing..... lemme say it in one word... ROFLMFAO
man.. dudes... EVE is EVE .. PVP is PVP.. if being in outlaw space makes u feel bad.. dont go there ^^ there are 5000 systems in eve u can find a quiet spot and mine there rofl
EVE Online 4TW!!
Omg, you speak words of truth, though again, not all of those systems are secure, about 2000 are. of course that's plenty, and you will be able to put up sentries, and players will eb able to literally secure and build empires in 0.0 just like the NPC ones.
Eve Online 4tw
The number of systems is pretty inconsequential. Is what's important is what players can do, and a lot of activities canot be done in high security space (like building player owned structures, mining moons, mining "rare" minerals).
Also, the main point I was trying to make in my original post was that there are lots of avenues which players can use to harm one another but so few avenues available for players to help one another. The lawlessness of 0.0 space is because players cannot protect one another even if they wanted to. (And there are plenty of witnesses in 0.0 crime, including the victim (which survives via clones), and sensors in the jump gates, which I'm sure are owned by someone.
If players had some means of knowing the trustworthiness of players they would be less inclined to follow NBSI policies and create "lawful" space where the law is enforced by players (as opposed to only trusting people within an alliance).
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "unfun for most players," but I can assure you that the "lawlessness" is what appeals to them. Simply because YOU don't like it, does not give you the right to assume that nobody else does either.
I like it. I'm only one person, BUT the Eve-Online.com forums will tell you just how much people LIKE the PvP system in Eve.
There isn't a better one out there.
WoW's is... everybody equal, no differences in class, just the way you look.
Lineage 2's is... well... just repulsive.
Eve's is balanced. Everybody can fly every ship. They just have to train up to it. Everybody can use every module, and to that module's full potential, they just have to train up to it. Eve, CCP, has created a universe of "fair fighting." Unfair situations arrise, BUT, in Eve... skill, not skill points, will amount to your success or your demise.
That's why so many people don't like Eve... because Eve requires skill and an intellectual, patient mind-set. Most gamers these days are used to being told what to do and how to do it. "Grind to 50 or 70 or 3,276,892 and train these skills!!" when Eve says, "Here's space, have fun!"
I've seen more miraculous things out of newbies that are trying than I could watching the old, "experienced" players. 5 class 1(beginner of the beginner) frigates can kill just about anything.. and if they can't kill it... they can keep it waiting for the one's that can.
SobaKai.com
There are two types of people in this world - people that suck... and me.
The number of systems is pretty inconsequential. Is what's important is what players can do, and a lot of activities canot be done in high security space (like building player owned structures, mining moons, mining "rare" minerals).
Also, the main point I was trying to make in my original post was that there are lots of avenues which players can use to harm one another but so few avenues available for players to help one another. The lawlessness of 0.0 space is because players cannot protect one another even if they wanted to. (And there are plenty of witnesses in 0.0 crime, including the victim (which survives via clones), and sensors in the jump gates, which I'm sure are owned by someone.
If players had some means of knowing the trustworthiness of players they would be less inclined to follow NBSI policies and create "lawful" space where the law is enforced by players (as opposed to only trusting people within an alliance).
Well, CCP is forcing you to "grow up." You start the game in a 1.0 secter. The safest of the safe. They want players to join huge corps, or to have a bunch of small ones join together. You are playing a Massive Multiplayer game. And, just like in any other game, the object is to go get bigger and better things. 1.0 space has nothing too valuable in it. 0.0 space DOES. Bigger and better roids, NPCs, PvP battles... you name it. BUT, if you don't like PvPing in Eve... you still have plenty of space to fly in.
AND, everybody has a sec rating (security status rating). If you can be shot at without CONCORD coming to your aid... it's your fault if you don't do this...
"right click"
"show info"
"too easy"
The utilities are there, utilize them... then... "grow up" and move to 0.0.
SobaKai.com
There are two types of people in this world - people that suck... and me.
You don't get what I'm saying. There's 50 tools available for players to harass and harm one another, but far less for players to aid and assist one another. Every player not "whitelisted" is automatically assumed to be bad and shot in most cases, because there is no way of marking players as "lawful" and trustworthy in general. Any sec 5 person can be a pirate that does all of their pirating in 0.0 space, or the alt of another player that is collecting insta-warps for less honest players.
If players had means with which they could present themselves as trustworthy they wouldn't shoot each other other on sight in PvP.
In the real world, criminals can be caught using a variety of forensics, questioning witnesses, ect. Criminals can be punished and kept in jail and off the streets to commit more crime, which in turn dissuades other people from trying criminal activity. In Eve, it's incredibly easy to engage in criminal activity and do so with very little retribution (it only costs the pirate their ship). Because of this criminals have tons more advantages in 0.0 space.
If players had the tools to enforce justice, it would be possible to have open access, player-enforced 0.0 regions. But currently the game strongly favors pirates because how much the game favors that activity. Yet so much of the game isn't available unless one has access to 0.0 space. This is why I stopped playing.
I agree with the original poster, because I don't think many of us are reading what he is saying carefully enough.
From what I gather, he is not saying that players shouldn't have the right to blast whomever they want in lowsec. Lowsec can, and always will be, outside of Concord's juristiction.
But that does not mean it shouldn't be outside a player, corp's or alliance's juristiction. If they want to act like Concord, and establish flying permits, travel permits, and non-aggression pacts, I would think they should be able to do so.
I don't think that I, a corp, an alliance, or anyone else would have a problem with creating non-aggression pacts, paying an ISK toll for jumping through a gate, or being allowed a mining license. It seems to me to be very lucrative, as well as lucrative for those who open up their sectors.
The problem is that there is no way to enforce toll gates, mining permits, or non-aggression pacts.
There are no protections any firmer than one's word, and there is no reason to trust someone's word.
Because while I am taking cargo back and forth, I may be more than willing to answer a hail of "pay me 10,000 ISK to use the gate," IF I had some sort of guarantee that the request would be honored. But there is no reason to believe they would honor that request, because why take 10,000 ISK, when the cargo hold has so much more for the taking?
This does not make the game more compelling, or intriguing. All it does is cause uncertainty that undermines corps, individuals, and potential opportunities for all. Because I'm sure a corp really wants to be taken at their word when they say, "pay me 10,000 ISK and you can jump through." The problem is, it would be foolish of me to pay that fee, knowing that they are not obliged to honor their own agreement.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
For many including myself thats the beauty of Eve. YOu just don't know, trust=risk. From what i hear though when they implement contracts (haven't played in a couple months) a person might be able to establish a track record of keeping contracts. You can see what contracts the person has successfully completed and then make a contract with them. This does not mean that they will honour the agreement (that would make the game boring with no double cross or betrayal) but it will allow you to make a more educated decision on whether to trust them or not.
I think the OP is wrong though. There are ways people can help you. If someone kills you in 0.0, tell you corp, have them bring justice in your name. Or tell an anti pirate corp, have them put the person on their list or keep an eye out for them. THen you could always hire a group to go kill the person for you. I do draw the line and going to cry to concor with proof someone killed you though outside their juristiction. Anyways there are alot of ways people can kill others but those same ways can be used to help someone. Its all about being able to make the system work for you
Trust in EVE is not risk, trust is stupidity. Risk implies some reasonable chance of gain, but there is no reasonable chance for gain, when we have to rely on faith to govern our dealings with people.
Faith is a matter of theology, and it has no place in economics or politics.
But when faced with two battleships asking for 10,000 ISK to use the gate, there is no chance of gain. There is only paying them 10,000 credits before they pod you, or having them pod you and keeping your 10,000 ISK. Trust in EVE is not risk. Its stupidity.
Nobody here wants to cry to Concord when killed in losec. What we would like is for these player alliances, corps, and individuals who own real estate in losec to play the role of Concord if they want to.
The problem is, with the way the rules stand now, no player corp can give security, because there is no reason to trust anyone. That is why betrayal and double crossing has no meaning in EVE. There can be no betrayal of trust, because there is no reason to trust in the first place.
A deal struck when there is no backing is no deal at all. Its naive, foolish, and limits the options players have to make some revenue from the investments they have, like keeping a system under control, starbases, and what have you.
Right now, there is no point in a corp asking the approaching ship to pay 10,000 ISK to use the gate they are protecting. That is because they cannot ever guarantee that their deal is legit. So instead of earning some ISK from passing ships, they either have no traffic come through at all, or they have a fight on their hands. A fight they may very well lose.
So what we have there is a potential for both parties to gain being unavailable simply because there is no backing behind the words.
The solution to every problem cannot always be "get a corp to care." Because just like every other aspect of EVE, there is no reason to trust one's own corp or hired corps will care about anyone getting podded, or losing ISK. If anything, getting a transport destroyed full of minerals or goods will get one kicked out of a corp, rather than have the corp take action. Most likely, they'll do what everybody else does. Look after their own self-interest, and not get involved.
Corps don't even have much to gain by trusting their own. I have heard of too many stories of corps being sorry for trusting their members too much. Blueprints stolen, information leaked. It may make for an interesting talk on the forums, but that is the biggest problem with guilds that rely on their own too much. Accounts get hacked, stuff gets stolen, and peeps get miffed.
At one time when the galaxy was large, and there were more systems than players to camp them, the Hobbesian war of all against all wasn't all that problematic. If there was a problem in one place, you could always go somewhere else.
But now we are getting crowded, and the symptoms are starting to show. Because yes, we have a lot of freedoms in EVE, except the one freedom that many here want to have. That is, the freedom to create agreements with others that have backing in more than the words that mean nothing.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Mylon, no offense, but your views on life in 0.0 are simply too naive. I'll explain with the following exapmles.
"Only" the ship? Mylon, I see you have also never pirated, or tried to view the game from their point of view. Atm, piracy is one of the hardest professions with the least amount of reward. Also most piracy in EVE happens in low sec space, not in 0.0, because most pirates encounter the same problems as the average player trying his luck in 0.0 - he gets hunted by bigger fish.
LOL? Alliances give a damn about trustworthyness. Even the most fanatic pirate hunter would be seen as nothing more then a non-Alliance member, thereby a potential threat, since he could spy on the alliance's troop movements, etc. without his "trustworthyness" being affected. There is no 100% trust in an Online game, maybe if the other person is a real life friend/spouse/relative, but else no.
There needs to be no order in 0.0, as you understand it. The alliances are the lawmakers and their members the executioners of that law. ANd at least for allianc territory it works. Allaince 0.0 space is usually very lawful and extremely safe (not taking into acount hostile attacks), because if you kill someone, scam someone, or behave in other disruptive way you simply get killed, expelled, KOSed, etc, but at the very least he is expected to compensate for the damage.
Yes? Where is the problem with that? 0.0 is a place where a group of people needs to get themselves organized to be able to hold their claimed space, thereby working together for a common goal, and thereby giving the MM part in MMOG, a reason to stand there. And having all minerals available and several other advantages are merely the "reward" for that, wouldn't you agree? Aside from the fact 0.0 is also depending on Empire (at least as of now) - e.g. you will get sorely dissapointed if you try to buy e.g. skillbooks in 0.0.
Security rating means nothing in regards of "pirate or no pirate". Live with that. A pirate hunter in lowsec kills his sec status as well as any pirate there. And if sec hits would apply in 0.0 too, then at least 90% of the people there would be -10 within short time. And then what? I understand where you want to go, but that is impossible, mainly because even a "law" system would be easily exploitable, in the end giving you nothing - at last in 0.0
What tools you propose? You didnt name one concrete example. Also what interest should alliances have to provide safety to non-alliance members? Under the current system they enforce law in their territory and fend off (hostile) non-alliance members and pirates - so all they will ever need.
Congratulations, you just described how basic defensive military strategy works in RL. Control chokepoints (passes, bridges, roads) to prevent the enemy from roaming around in your country or attacking you from an "unpleasant" direction. Although in the history books nobody referred e.g. to the Germans as having "camped" the Bridge of ArnheimAlso where did historical outlaws and pirates attack? Yepp, traderoutes (roads, shiplanes), so where else should be Pirates if not at gates or in the belts? In a station waiting for the other guy to surrender because of fear?
All in all I understand you view, but it lawenforcement measures/features are either not needed currently, or are easily exploited again to cloak pirate activity. Some things which work in RL *can't* work in a game.
Disclaimer: while I have my own views about the great alliances and their methods, I tried to be as neutral as possible.
------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
One thing to note about pvp and pve in eve that puts things in a bit of perspective. Eve was never designed to have pve at all, it was supposed to be pure pvp. Npcs was not added until late beta because of player request.
If you don't belive me watch the Npcs: What makes them tick video here.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
I don't think one gets a reputation for being a crook in EVE. In fact, crooks, scammers, and big tales of screwing over others gives one a good reputation in EVE.
The ones who get a bad reputation are the ones who get screwed. Because nobody is going to think its the pirate's fault for saying they will let you through for 10,000 ISK. Rather, its the one who believes him that is at fault. The community doesn't have any sympathy for the betrayed. Rather, they would wish the betrayed would quit, so as to create less lag.
If anything, trusting someone and getting screwed gives the screwer kudos from the board crowds and alliance folk. And gives the one who allowed himself to get screwed the reputation of being a moron.
The only thing that matters to many in EVE is Tech II, being a heavyweight on the killboards, and owning large tracts of 0.0. There is nothing wrong with those things, but it doesn't make for as rich a game as there can be, with mutual agreements that are enforceable by real stats, not make believe ones like this "reputation" you mention.
If its not coded and part of the game, it doesn't exist.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I don't think one gets a reputation for being a crook in EVE. In fact, crooks, scammers, and big tales of screwing over others gives one a good reputation in EVE.
The ones who get a bad reputation are the ones who get screwed. Because nobody is going to think its the pirate's fault for saying they will let you through for 10,000 ISK. Rather, its the one who believes him that is at fault. The community doesn't have any sympathy for the betrayed. Rather, they would wish the betrayed would quit, so as to create less lag.
If anything, trusting someone and getting screwed gives the screwer kudos from the board crowds and alliance folk. And gives the one who allowed himself to get screwed the reputation of being a moron.
The only thing that matters to many in EVE is Tech II, being a heavyweight on the killboards, and owning large tracts of 0.0. There is nothing wrong with those things, but it doesn't make for as rich a game as there can be, with mutual agreements that are enforceable by real stats, not make believe ones like this "reputation" you mention.
If its not coded and part of the game, it doesn't exist.
You take an EXTREMELY cynical view...
Yes you do get a reputation for being a crook in EVE and if you have that reputation its EXTREMELY hard to ever get rid of it. Yes people can admire and applaud those who pull off large scams - but are they ever trusted again? No. Reputation sticks and it sticks for a long time...
You use the example of pirates betraying their word and gaining reputation for it... Absolute nonsense... Some of the most respected and admired corporation in EVE history were pirates who lived by the pirate code i.e. Space Invaders. If they ransomed you and you paid then you lived. As someone else has rightly pointed out a 'true' pirate is only screwing himself if he asks people for ransom and then blows them up anyway - Who in fecks name would ever trust them again? Who would ever pay a ransom again... No one...
I helped found the CVA - one of the first alliances in EVE - we went down to an area of low sec Amarr and 0.0 bordering the Amarr Empire. It was infested by pirates and pretty much derelict and abandoned by most pilots... But we and our friends cleared it out. It wasn't easy and and it still isn't.
But we opened our space. We do not operate NBSI. We allowed all law abiding non-pirates pilots and corporations who wanted to move to the area to do so. We created joint communication channels with those we could trust. Those people came to see the area as their home now and they help us when any pirates do show up. As a result the area has become safer and safer. (I wont say 100% as pirates will always try their luck) More people moved down. The area which had been derelict absolutely hums with life now. Over the 18 months we have been down there we have learned who to trust and who to shoot. If a pirate shows up in the region we know within a few minutes and people can either avoid the area or the gun toters head over to kick some arse.
Everyone gets the benefit of the doubt when the first arrive and if they abuse our trust they get show the door pretty fooking sharpish... Pirates will raid and when they realise they aint facing a bunch of carebears and that there are no easy ganks will move on after a short time (pirates have very short attention periods). This is just one example (and there are many others) of a community based on trust working in EVE...
Do I trust someone when i first meet them in real life - hell no - The same applies in EVE. Trust is gained through your actions over a long period of time (or through references & recommendations from other people you trust) just as it is in real life. Yes it is an online game and people's ethics do tend to be 'looser' than they would be irl but at the same time if you have worked with someone sharing common goals and ambitions over the course of a year you would have to be a pretty shite judge of character to not work out whether you can rely on them or not...
I feel sorry for you if you have spent your entire life in EVE living this complete paranoid delusion that everyone is out to feck you over - because you truely have missed out on a large part of the game.
Amarr Victor
I feel sorry for you if you have spent your entire life in EVE living this complete paranoid delusion that everyone is out to feck you over - because you truely have missed out on a large part of the game.
Don't feel sorry for me. I'm doing fine, because the large parts of the game I am missing out on are the bad parts of EVE: the ganking, the loss of extreme amounts of ISK, the pointless grief wars, and the gate camping.
I've got no problem with living in a dangerous galaxy. The fact that I can avoid danger by not allowing others the opportunity to affect my game plan is one of the reasons I think I can make it long term in this game.
Because as with all things, dispositions and standings can change. And because justice and agreements are a matter of the arbitrary whims of whoever has the biggest guns, there can be no trust.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm no carebear. If we are going to play free for all, then so be it. I'll just stay in Jita with everyone else trying to end the day better than when I started.
I'm all about player generated agreements. The problem is, player generated agreements have no worth when its up to the arbitrary whims of the stronger, more numerous party to abide by it. Because what happens when the alliance wakes up one day and says, "we don't like them any more, let's gank them?"
I may miss out on big fleet battles and 0.0, but at least I'll miss out on having blueprints stolen, or being podded to excess, or being kicked out of the corp and ganked by all the members, simply because the popular guy woke up one day and said, "we don't like him anymore."
Its not a matter of living on your knees or dying on your feet in EVE.
Its a matter of living on your feet or dying on your knees.
I'd rather live on my feet. So I'll just do as everyone else, and not simply not cause a fuss with anyone, but rather, to not even put myself in a position to even be the cause of anyone's personal fuss.
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"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
It is a matter of living on one's knees or dying on one's feet. One lives on their knees in empire space by not having access to many features of the game (Player Owned Stations, gathering for Tech 2 manufacturing). One dies on their feet in 0.0 by having this features but getting ganked.
Alliances are nice and all, but many are so paranoid that getting into one requires so much work that a casual player cannot really do it.
I really salute the player that's in an alliance that operates in open 0.0 space and gives new people the benefit of the doubt. Eve could benefit from more such alliances.
There are people who manage several POSes *alone*. Also the people making billions in trading and manufacturing (and some with missioning) in Empire will heartily disagree with your "living on your knees" statement.
That is where interesting interaction comes up. If one faction/playergroup has *not* access to everything. Ever thought about that?
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
There have been several Alliances that tried to have open space but none of them is still around because it's bound to fail. And even if it worked why should someone work their asses off, probably going broke in the process securing space so that someone who hasn't done a thing to help can go their and reap the benefits of said space?
Very few of the people who talk about free space have any experience what so ever of what it takes to live and survive in 0.0. I loose several ships per week defending our space from hostile incursions, and I am not talking about neutrals here I am talking about real hostile people who come here with the sole intent of killing anyone they find in the area. Are you willing to make the same commitment to defend whatever area you want to live in? Because if you aren't then you have no place living there.
Now if you pay me for my ship losses and time spent securing the area then it's something different. People have talked about mining passes etc and these things do exists in EVE. Most larger alliances have them, they just cost a bit more than 10.000 isk, more in the area of 100.000.000 isk for week of mining/npcing. And such a pass will make you safe from the inhabitants of the area. This is as been said a matter of reputation, if they start killing the people they sell passes to they won't get any more passes sold.
It will of course not keep you safe from pirates etc. As for the alliance waking up one day and deciding to kill all the pass holders, well considering all passes are short term you will already have earned back the cost + ship cost many times over so it won't be of much problem. But this is risk/reward, every day you undock in 0.0 you take the risk of getting killed no matter if you are a passholder or an alliance member or what ever. But the rewards are large enough to risk it (I made 200m in one day in bounties alone npcing a few days ago, and then there is loot ontop of that).
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."