Did you start playing EVE on the first day, or did you start sometime after?
Like EVE, our game is designed to have a power curve that becomes shallower over time, not remain a straight line. Six months in if you focus your training on being good at PvP, the differences in mechanical power between you and someone who started on the first day will be swamped by your skill, your gear, your friends and your tactics.
Since this system has worked so well for EVE, we see no reason it won't also work for Pathfidner Online.
I'd say the main reason is because you are not EVE no matter how much you try to spin it. I would say there are many more things different about your game than their are similarities.
I did say this in another thread (or maybe this one...) that I have NEVER seen a CEO mention other games, or one particular game from another company as much as you do. It's a bizarre marketing tactic because all it does is point out how far behind your game is in comparison to those others. I mean, you mention EVE 4 times alone in this quoted post, and only mention your own game once and that's even spelled wrong. ( I would insert a facepalm meme here to go along with the one you posted earlier.. but I think most readers will get the point without the picture.)
EVE was a one time thing where all the stars aligned. EVE launched 12 years ago. The market has radically changed. Not realizing that is a fatal error in my opinion.
But we will see... I suspect that despite your posts you actually see the same thing. I think you miscalculated the market's willingness to accept a "year 2 of 5" product and pay a box price, sub, and cash shop. I think at some point relatively soon you will publicly admit that, spin it as "Crowd Forging" and change your pricing model. Let's see what happens. Maybe I am wrong and you will stick to your guns, keep the current pricing scheme, and attract the 10,000 players you state you want. I don't see that as having a snowball's chance in hell, but time will tell.
Edit to add:
Heck, I was inspired by your meme so here's my own (but not as obnoxiously large as yours)
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Originally posted by thundercles I think a definitive statement from the lead developer about the status of the game and what are some fair expectations would be helpful.
Pathfinder Online is in Early Enrollment.
Early Enrollment is not a "test". The game is live, and won't be wiped. The purpose of Early Enrollment is not to find and fix bugs (although we do that constantly).
The objective is to begin play of the game with enough content and features to make it "work" as an MMO and then iterate and become more feature-rich, polished, and complex over time.
The game is a Minimum Viable Product right now, and is being continuously developed towards a goal of reaching a level of development comparable with other MMO projects.
It typically takes at least 5 years to release an MMO in the "traditional" process. We are approximately 2 years into that 5 year timeline. Most players have never seen a game in this stage of development before.
We have two related goals regarding Early Enrollment.
One: We want to Crowdforge the game. By that, I mean we want a real, two-way communication between the community and the development team so that the game actually represents a synthesis of input from both sides. We have achieved that, and we'll continue to work hard on that process throughout the life of the project.
In order to enable Crowdforging to really work, players have to be in the game very early in its development. The way MMOs are made once a major game system is implemented it becomes increasingly hard and expensive to make fundamental changes. In traditional MMO development those kinds of changes are virtually impossible by the time players get to "beta test" the game. In Pathfinder Online, we're starting early enough in the development process that community feedback can meaningfully affect the game at a fundamental level.
We think a huge part of the "value" of Early Enrollment is the experience of Crowdforging. People who are interested in seeing how an MMO is "really made", and people who have a desire to participate in the Crowdforging process are getting something with Pathfinder Online that they can't get with a traditionally designed project.
Two: We need to fund the development of the game, in part, through revenue generated by the game.
The appetite for investing in MMOs has vaporized. That's not surprising, since virtually none of them generated the returns on investment that people expected. MMOs over the past 10 years have become outrageously expensive to make. $100 million is a reasonable expectation for a game in the "AAA MMO" category. Assuming investors seek at least a 10x return on their investments, and that they'll own at least 50% of the equity in an MMO project, that implies that the game generates $2 billion in profits over its lifecycle.
People made those pitches and raised investments with those numbers and none of those games delivered. As a result, nobody wants to invest in an MMO anymore.
If you look at the recent and public spectacular failures in the space, like 38 Studios ($100+ million lost), World of Darkness (~$75 million lost), Project Titan at Blizzard (nobody can even hazard a guess but it's in the $100+ million range, for sure), not to mention projects that bubbled below the surface but didn't ever see much publicity like the rumored Call of Duty MMO, you can see why there are no AAA MMOs in development anywhere. These are 500 to 1,000 person teams, and they require years of work and investment. They're impossible to hide.
To make an MMO in 2015 requires a different approach. Our solution to this problem was to make the smallest possible MMO we could, which implies the need to raise the smallest possible amount of capital. The tradeoff is that we are making an MVP, not a AAA MMO. We accept that the consequence is that a very, very small number of people (compared to the ~2 million Western market for a Fantasy Sandbox MMO that I think can be credibly defined) will be interested in paying to play it while it remains an MVP. We're ok with that - we built our business to work with a small player community.
We generated money from Crowdfunding via Kickstarter. We raised about 3x as much from angel investors. And now we need revenues from operations to continue to develop the game. In 2015, this is a model that can work to enable the creation of an MMO when no other financing options are available, and that's why you see projects like Shroud of the Avatar, Camelot Unchained, Crowfall, etc. following the same strategy - raise Crowdfunding, raise private equity, and then raise ongoing revenue through sales.
Crazy how we get new MMO's all the time and you're the only one trying to charge monthly for a product not even close to release state. The only game I know of that charges for an early access type release monthly, is a game called Xsyon. So 1 other MMO that I can think of in history, has used your business model. How has any other MMO even been produced, since they didn't follow Ryan's "genius" business model? Shit's crazy.
There still a wipe coming to the game when it get released asfar as i am aware aswell, I dont beleive there wiping character developments but all settlements are going poof or what not when they do there release thign atleast my understanding
What does released mean to you supporters of the game?
Is it selling the game on a website - check
Is it charging a full price sub fee - check
Is it the CEO saying the game is not in testing - check
Is it no longer having character wipes - check Still getting wiped just not character from my knowledge atleast
What is to stop me from creating a scam game, selling it, charging full price and then saying it is crowdforged and not released to save me from getting bad PR from reviews? If the CEO had just followed through with his posted plans and asked for a monthly donation from players while the game was in beta phase, none of this would have happened. Instead he has to use wordplay/puffery and call it "crowdforging" to then justify charging full price to be a beta tester. The CEO brought this on himself. If he had just been honest and followed the original plan, we would not be here right now arguing over the point of when something is released.
I can call my feces a rose but that doesnt make it smell like a rose. Just calling something a new name does not change it into something else. I would love my car to be a spaceship but calling it a spaceship wont make it one. I can even come up with a new name like "ectoshiparoony" and it still wont become a spaceship. I can remove the legs from a horse and it is still a horse. I can remove its head, its tail, cut it in half, sew a dogs head on its rear end but it would still be a horse.
I ask you supporters to please give us your definition of what "released" means. A definition that does not prevent scammers like Sergey Titov (War-Z) from being reviewed. This site gave you its definition, no wipes and charging the full regular fee. Please enlighten us with your wisdom and clear this up for us with your definition of released.
What does released mean to you supporters of the game?
Is it selling the game on a website - check
Is it charging a full price sub fee - check
Is it the CEO saying the game is not in testing - check
Is it no longer having character wipes - check Still getting wiped just not character from my knowledge atleast
What is to stop me from creating a scam game, selling it, charging full price and then saying it is crowdforged and not released to save me from getting bad PR from reviews? If the CEO had just followed through with his posted plans and asked for a monthly donation from players while the game was in beta phase, none of this would have happened. Instead he has to use wordplay/puffery and call it "crowdforging" to then justify charging full price to be a beta tester. The CEO brought this on himself. If he had just been honest and followed the original plan, we would not be here right now arguing over the point of when something is released.
I can call my feces a rose but that doesnt make it smell like a rose. Just calling something a new name does not change it into something else. I would love my car to be a spaceship but calling it a spaceship wont make it one. I can even come up with a new name like "ectoshiparoony" and it still wont become a spaceship. I can remove the legs from a horse and it is still a horse. I can remove its head, its tail, cut it in half, sew a dogs head on its rear end but it would still be a horse.
I ask you supporters to please give us your definition of what "released" means. A definition that does not prevent scammers like Sergey Titov (War-Z) from being reviewed. This site gave you its definition, no wipes and charging the full regular fee. Please enlighten us with your wisdom and clear this up for us with your definition of released.
How does "no character wipes" = "Still getting wiped just not character"
I dont really care about anything else. I care that if I buy the game at launch, I will get owned in PVP by people who have had a year to improve their skills. Who cares if a settlement building is still around at launch, I'll be too busy running from everyone with an extra years worth of skills trying to farm me for easy kills.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
The game is explicitly designed to suppress that kind of behavior. While it might occasionally happen it should not be a routine part of most player's actual game experience.
The game is explicitly designed to suppress that kind of behavior. While it might occasionally happen it should not be a routine part of most player's actual game experience.
Umm... I'm not quite sure how that relates to the conversation. I think you cut and paste into the wrong thread...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The game is explicitly designed to suppress that kind of behavior. While it might occasionally happen it should not be a routine part of most player's actual game experience.
Umm... I'm not quite sure how that relates to the conversation. I think you cut and paste into the wrong thread...
I think he was referring to this "I care that if I buy the game at launch, I will get owned in PVP by people who have had a year to improve their skills."
He just left out the part about taking 6 months of subscribing to his game, and learning skills offline to compete. (He gave the 6 month timetable in an earlier statement)
The game is explicitly designed to suppress that kind of behavior. While it might occasionally happen it should not be a routine part of most player's actual game experience.
Umm... I'm not quite sure how that relates to the conversation. I think you cut and paste into the wrong thread...
I think he was referring to this "I care that if I buy the game at launch, I will get owned in PVP by people who have had a year to improve their skills."
He just left out the part about taking 6 months of subscribing to his game, and learning skills offline to compete. (He gave the 6 month timetable in earlier statements)
Gotchya... To get us back on track:
I think it would be very beneficial to have rough dates sketched in for all the items that were purchased back in 2012. It always scares me when companies try to sell more NEW items before they deliver what they already sold. It would be even better if that schedule did not include any references to what other games (or game) have done 10+ years ago.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
I'd say the main reason is because you are not EVE no matter how much you try to spin it. I would say there are many more things different about your game than their are similarities.
I did say this in another thread (or maybe this one...) that I have NEVER seen a CEO mention other games, or one particular game from another company as much as you do. It's a bizarre marketing tactic because all it does is point out how far behind your game is in comparison to those others. I mean, you mention EVE 4 times alone in this quoted post, and only mention your own game once and that's even spelled wrong. ( I would insert a facepalm meme here to go along with the one you posted earlier.. but I think most readers will get the point without the picture.)
EVE was a one time thing where all the stars aligned. EVE launched 12 years ago. The market has radically changed. Not realizing that is a fatal error in my opinion.
But we will see... I suspect that despite your posts you actually see the same thing. I think you miscalculated the market's willingness to accept a "year 2 of 5" product and pay a box price, sub, and cash shop. I think at some point relatively soon you will publicly admit that, spin it as "Crowd Forging" and change your pricing model. Let's see what happens. Maybe I am wrong and you will stick to your guns, keep the current pricing scheme, and attract the 10,000 players you state you want. I don't see that as having a snowball's chance in hell, but time will tell.
Edit to add:
Heck, I was inspired by your meme so here's my own (but not as obnoxiously large as yours)
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Crazy how we get new MMO's all the time and you're the only one trying to charge monthly for a product not even close to release state. The only game I know of that charges for an early access type release monthly, is a game called Xsyon. So 1 other MMO that I can think of in history, has used your business model. How has any other MMO even been produced, since they didn't follow Ryan's "genius" business model? Shit's crazy.
There will be no more wipes. The last wipe was December 31st. Everything that happens now is for keeps.
Nop
How does "no character wipes" = "Still getting wiped just not character"
I dont really care about anything else. I care that if I buy the game at launch, I will get owned in PVP by people who have had a year to improve their skills. Who cares if a settlement building is still around at launch, I'll be too busy running from everyone with an extra years worth of skills trying to farm me for easy kills.
The game is explicitly designed to suppress that kind of behavior. While it might occasionally happen it should not be a routine part of most player's actual game experience.
Umm... I'm not quite sure how that relates to the conversation. I think you cut and paste into the wrong thread...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I think he was referring to this "I care that if I buy the game at launch, I will get owned in PVP by people who have had a year to improve their skills."
He just left out the part about taking 6 months of subscribing to his game, and learning skills offline to compete. (He gave the 6 month timetable in an earlier statement)
Gotchya... To get us back on track:
I think it would be very beneficial to have rough dates sketched in for all the items that were purchased back in 2012. It always scares me when companies try to sell more NEW items before they deliver what they already sold. It would be even better if that schedule did not include any references to what other games (or game) have done 10+ years ago.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018