Originally posted by Foomerang1999: internet was new. less that 300 million people worldwide had it. The concept of playing a video game with someone over the internet was new and exciting. no online game guides. no google. no youtube. no spoilers.2015: internet is everywhere. over 3 billion people have it now. if a video game does not have an online aspect, it is considered out of the norm. all info about every game from the past, present and future is laid out in full detail. years before an mmo even launches, we can already know just about everything about it down to the way a character's foot rests at an angle.the internet just isnt very special anymore. so the novelty has worn off. you have to find new ways to enjoy mmos other than just the thrill of talking to someone over an internet connection.You can still have great experiences and meet cool folks. Just dont be surprised that the ice breaker is no longer, "isnt this amazing? im playing with someone from across the country right now!"
I hate this " it isn't new anymore" argument. I will give you that we have more people playing them, but the fact is the games themselves have in fact changed. In every old school MMO you NEEDED the community, and if you were a jerk you either hung out with like-minded people, or you were shunned as an outcast and would not get anywhere. Now we have megaservers, 99% solo play, you can craft everything, auction houses to avoid socializing, etc. You don't really get to know anyone outside of your circle because there is no need to, therefore everyone acts as though they are anon all the time.
Wait, old school mmos had better communities because it was harder to be a jerk? How are you not seeing the crater sized hole in that argument? SO basically you were surrounded by people who were forced to kiss your ass because of the rules of the game and you just drank it up like everybody was being sincere. lol no my friend. Those people were the worst kind of assholes, the ones who acted like your best friend so they could get their digital toys. At least the dbags in todays mmos are being transparent about it.
Look, I understand the power of nostalgia. I can relate to that. I played old MMOs as well. But forced grouping making good communities? I like it how it is now better. When I socialize in an mmo today its because we want to, not because we have to. And that crucial difference makes is genuine. And yes the social interactions are more rare these days but at least they are voluntary.
Oh no, the nostalgia fallacy. I guess its game over for us. Pack your bags guys, your logic has been trumped. We would have seen it coming but our vision was just too cloudy from our rose colored glasses.
Originally posted by Kilrain Modern mmo communities are made of primarily kids (age and attitude) who feel entitled because the games hold their hands and make them feel important w/o effort. They don't need to interact because they the games are solo-able. All of them are. If the games were designed like they used to be, requiring users to depend on each other to advance then we can assume 2 things. The users attitudes would straighten up and they would actually try to get along, or they wouldn't play and we'd all be better off anyway. A subscription would be required for that last part, however, as "kids" these days will log into a F2P game they don't like just to trash talk it and try to troll.
So an mmo where people can choose to be social or not based on their mood is for kids. But an mmo that forces you to participate and behave a certain way or suffer possible alienation and stunted progression is for adults?
For the record, I think people are responsible for their own social interactions and I've been part of both good and bad communities in all types of mmo structures.
I think it is silly to think that a video game mechanic is required for people to be social or not. I also think its silly to think that forcing someone to be nice makes them "social". Forcing people to behave a certain way is most certainly an anti social behavior. Forced grouping does not create healthy social environments and neither does a group finding tool.
Every thread like this has people with many different points of view on the subject and they are all correct because social interaction is a personal experience. It is 100% subjective and 100% valid at the same time. Maybe we should stop trying to dictate how others should behave and be mature enough to take responsibility for our own actions.
There's a difference between being social and needing to work together to achieve a goal. I have friends that I love to play games with, but if that games doesn't require teamwork, it's pointless for us to play together and we end up moving on. We've played a lot of games together and the most fun were Eve Online and Darkfall (I played with different people back in EQ days) because those games required teamwork. For Eve it was the pvp, Darkfall it was pve and pvp. Other MMO's we've tried playing together like Age of Conan, Rift, Neverwinter, each of us started playing and then we just kept moving, not EVER requiring a group or needing to help each other out in any way. Sure it was easy to be "SOCIAL" over voice comms or whatever, but it was no different than playing completely different games and just having conversations. Needless to say, those games didn't last us very long.
It's not about being "SOCIAL" like you're talking about, it's about collaboration and teamwork. In games where zero teamwork Is needed, people are more apt to being asshats than if they need help from others in order to advance. Like I said above, in a game where teamwork Is needed, the asshat will either adapt and stop being said asshat or will move on to a different game where he doesn't need to be nice.
Originally posted by Dullahan Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by Viper482Originally posted by Foomerang1999: internet was new. less that 300 million people worldwide had it. The concept of playing a video game with someone over the internet was new and exciting. no online game guides. no google. no youtube. no spoilers.2015: internet is everywhere. over 3 billion people have it now. if a video game does not have an online aspect, it is considered out of the norm. all info about every game from the past, present and future is laid out in full detail. years before an mmo even launches, we can already know just about everything about it down to the way a character's foot rests at an angle.the internet just isnt very special anymore. so the novelty has worn off. you have to find new ways to enjoy mmos other than just the thrill of talking to someone over an internet connection.You can still have great experiences and meet cool folks. Just dont be surprised that the ice breaker is no longer, "isnt this amazing? im playing with someone from across the country right now!"
I hate this " it isn't new anymore" argument. I will give you that we have more people playing them, but the fact is the games themselves have in fact changed. In every old school MMO you NEEDED the community, and if you were a jerk you either hung out with like-minded people, or you were shunned as an outcast and would not get anywhere. Now we have megaservers, 99% solo play, you can craft everything, auction houses to avoid socializing, etc. You don't really get to know anyone outside of your circle because there is no need to, therefore everyone acts as though they are anon all the time.Wait, old school mmos had better communities because it was harder to be a jerk? How are you not seeing the crater sized hole in that argument? SO basically you were surrounded by people who were forced to kiss your ass because of the rules of the game and you just drank it up like everybody was being sincere. lol no my friend. Those people were the worst kind of assholes, the ones who acted like your best friend so they could get their digital toys. At least the dbags in todays mmos are being transparent about it. Look, I understand the power of nostalgia. I can relate to that. I played old MMOs as well. But forced grouping making good communities? I like it how it is now better. When I socialize in an mmo today its because we want to, not because we have to. And that crucial difference makes is genuine. And yes the social interactions are more rare these days but at least they are voluntary. Oh no, the nostalgia fallacy. I guess its game over for us. Pack your bags guys, your logic has been trumped. We would have seen it coming but our vision was just too cloudy from our rose colored glasses. Really? Thats what you got from that? I was trying to convey that I also miss my old communities as well. You're projecting.
Originally posted by Kilrain Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by KilrainModern mmo communities are made of primarily kids (age and attitude) who feel entitled because the games hold their hands and make them feel important w/o effort. They don't need to interact because they the games are solo-able. All of them are. If the games were designed like they used to be, requiring users to depend on each other to advance then we can assume 2 things. The users attitudes would straighten up and they would actually try to get along, or they wouldn't play and we'd all be better off anyway. A subscription would be required for that last part, however, as "kids" these days will log into a F2P game they don't like just to trash talk it and try to troll.
So an mmo where people can choose to be social or not based on their mood is for kids. But an mmo that forces you to participate and behave a certain way or suffer possible alienation and stunted progression is for adults? For the record, I think people are responsible for their own social interactions and I've been part of both good and bad communities in all types of mmo structures.I think it is silly to think that a video game mechanic is required for people to be social or not. I also think its silly to think that forcing someone to be nice makes them "social". Forcing people to behave a certain way is most certainly an anti social behavior. Forced grouping does not create healthy social environments and neither does a group finding tool. Every thread like this has people with many different points of view on the subject and they are all correct because social interaction is a personal experience. It is 100% subjective and 100% valid at the same time. Maybe we should stop trying to dictate how others should behave and be mature enough to take responsibility for our own actions.There's a difference between being social and needing to work together to achieve a goal. I have friends that I love to play games with, but if that games doesn't require teamwork, it's pointless for us to play together and we end up moving on. We've played a lot of games together and the most fun were Eve Online and Darkfall (I played with different people back in EQ days) because those games required teamwork. For Eve it was the pvp, Darkfall it was pve and pvp. Other MMO's we've tried playing together like Age of Conan, Rift, Neverwinter, each of us started playing and then we just kept moving, not EVER requiring a group or needing to help each other out in any way. Sure it was easy to be "SOCIAL" over voice comms or whatever, but it was no different than playing completely different games and just having conversations. Needless to say, those games didn't last us very long.
It's not about being "SOCIAL" like you're talking about, it's about collaboration and teamwork. In games where zero teamwork Is needed, people are more apt to being asshats than if they need help from others in order to advance. Like I said above, in a game where teamwork Is needed, the asshat will either adapt and stop being said asshat or will move on to a different game where he doesn't need to be nice.
All modern mmorpgs have group content. All the ones you listed have it. Raids, dungeons, battlegrounds, arenas, world bosses etc. It may look different than older mmos but its still there.
Originally posted by Donpoohbear alo of people seem to have a chip on their shoulder for the knowledge they have gained. and feel like you should have scoured the wikis and online guides rather than just asking .
This.
People hoard knowledge in MMOs, where once upon a time they used to eagerly give it away.
Originally posted by KilrainModern mmo communities are made of primarily kids (age and attitude) who feel entitled because the games hold their hands and make them feel important w/o effort. They don't need to interact because they the games are solo-able. All of them are. If the games were designed like they used to be, requiring users to depend on each other to advance then we can assume 2 things. The users attitudes would straighten up and they would actually try to get along, or they wouldn't play and we'd all be better off anyway. A subscription would be required for that last part, however, as "kids" these days will log into a F2P game they don't like just to trash talk it and try to troll.
So an mmo where people can choose to be social or not based on their mood is for kids. But an mmo that forces you to participate and behave a certain way or suffer possible alienation and stunted progression is for adults? For the record, I think people are responsible for their own social interactions and I've been part of both good and bad communities in all types of mmo structures.I think it is silly to think that a video game mechanic is required for people to be social or not. I also think its silly to think that forcing someone to be nice makes them "social". Forcing people to behave a certain way is most certainly an anti social behavior. Forced grouping does not create healthy social environments and neither does a group finding tool. Every thread like this has people with many different points of view on the subject and they are all correct because social interaction is a personal experience. It is 100% subjective and 100% valid at the same time. Maybe we should stop trying to dictate how others should behave and be mature enough to take responsibility for our own actions.
There's a difference between being social and needing to work together to achieve a goal. I have friends that I love to play games with, but if that games doesn't require teamwork, it's pointless for us to play together and we end up moving on. We've played a lot of games together and the most fun were Eve Online and Darkfall (I played with different people back in EQ days) because those games required teamwork. For Eve it was the pvp, Darkfall it was pve and pvp. Other MMO's we've tried playing together like Age of Conan, Rift, Neverwinter, each of us started playing and then we just kept moving, not EVER requiring a group or needing to help each other out in any way. Sure it was easy to be "SOCIAL" over voice comms or whatever, but it was no different than playing completely different games and just having conversations. Needless to say, those games didn't last us very long.
It's not about being "SOCIAL" like you're talking about, it's about collaboration and teamwork. In games where zero teamwork Is needed, people are more apt to being asshats than if they need help from others in order to advance. Like I said above, in a game where teamwork Is needed, the asshat will either adapt and stop being said asshat or will move on to a different game where he doesn't need to be nice.
All modern mmorpgs have group content. All the ones you listed have it. Raids, dungeons, battlegrounds, arenas, world bosses etc. It may look different than older mmos but its still there.
Wait, old school mmos had better communities because it was harder to be a jerk? How are you not seeing the crater sized hole in that argument? SO basically you were surrounded by people who were forced to kiss your ass because of the rules of the game and you just drank it up like everybody was being sincere. lol no my friend. Those people were the worst kind of assholes, the ones who acted like your best friend so they could get their digital toys. At least the dbags in todays mmos are being transparent about it. Look, I understand the power of nostalgia. I can relate to that. I played old MMOs as well. But forced grouping making good communities? I like it how it is now better. When I socialize in an mmo today its because we want to, not because we have to. And that crucial difference makes is genuine. And yes the social interactions are more rare these days but at least they are voluntary.
Oh no, the nostalgia fallacy. I guess its game over for us. Pack your bags guys, your logic has been trumped. We would have seen it coming but our vision was just too cloudy from our rose colored glasses.
Really? Thats what you got from that? I was trying to convey that I also miss my old communities as well. You're projecting.
No, I'm not. You were reaching just to connect hidden greed or passive aggression to the outright disrespect found in modern games with no accountability. You knew it wouldn't fly so you fell back on nostalgia like we are somehow misremembering.
At my job, I don't always like everyone, and some people may not like me, but I nod when I pass them in the hall and when I work together with them we still get shit done. There is a level of respect, because its important if we want to keep our jobs. Often, upon working together, people get to know each other better and end up becoming friends. It was the same scenario in older games where players needed each other. That doesn't exist today.
Citing a few different forms of group gameplay means nothing compared to games where all forms of progression require grouping. It also means nothing when the press of a single button joins you to a new group, generally with people you've never played with before and will never play with again.
That being said, I guess my conclusion is that game design is pretty terrible these days.
How about making a virtual world MMORPG where you see the same people, have accountability and reputation? Design systems to encourage socialization and grouping. Make people become life long friends by playing your game. Guess that's asking for to much?
"terrible" is a matter of perspective. Not everyone cares about seeing the same people in the same game everyday. Heck, many may not even play one single game day after day.
It is asking too much if there is not a big enough market for dev to invest in. What you are asking is not cheap, you know.
It's not a matter of perspective when you can quantify game design that actively discourages and outright prevents socialization vs game design that promotes and encourages it. It's objectively worse for the community.
No market for MMORPGs that promote and encourage grouping, socialization and community? Really?
That and you have stated you don't care about the community in MMOs at all and play them like single player games. So no offense but your credibility on this topic is pretty minimal, but if I wanted to know about single player MMOs and how to play without ever involving oneself with the community I'd consider you an expert.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Originally posted by Dullahan Until MMOs go back to being more group dependent, theres no drawback to being a dick. Once people have to rely on each other again, attitudes will change or people will find themselves unable to progress.
Pretty much this..
Every game that I have played in recent years is nothing more then solo games, where being a doofus is acceptable, and then you have the esport co-op mentality of my gang is better then your gang.. I have not seen a community building MMO since.. (can't remember).. Too much of this generation reflects the real SELFISH world we live in.. /shrug
Originally posted by Dullahan Until MMOs go back to being more group dependent, theres no drawback to being a dick. Once people have to rely on each other again, attitudes will change or people will find themselves unable to progress.
Wait, old school mmos had better communities because it was harder to be a jerk? How are you not seeing the crater sized hole in that argument? SO basically you were surrounded by people who were forced to kiss your ass because of the rules of the game and you just drank it up like everybody was being sincere. lol no my friend. Those people were the worst kind of assholes, the ones who acted like your best friend so they could get their digital toys. At least the dbags in todays mmos are being transparent about it.
Look, I understand the power of nostalgia. I can relate to that. I played old MMOs as well. But forced grouping making good communities? I like it how it is now better. When I socialize in an mmo today its because we want to, not because we have to. And that crucial difference makes is genuine. And yes the social interactions are more rare these days but at least they are voluntary. And sometimes, during those forced/encouraged events over a period of time, it opens up the opportunity to start a relationship, that is more then just a passing of "good game" and bye.. But it would be safe to say, that without that little push on the back, that relationship would of never have occurred.. No more different then online chat with a stranger at first, that evolves down the road
Damned, I missed that gem of a post during my first read.
This, absolutely this.
Forced grouping only brings one thing... forced "friends", aka people who stay with you because they need you to achieve their goals. You mean like all the fake friends in World of Warcraft because doing Heroics and Raids made you group with people you would of never of met without it? In addition, maybe those friends are only temporary, but then how many RL friends do you still keep in touch with over the last 10, 20 years?
Real friends don't stay with you to (ab)use you, but because they enjoy your company. And you can make real friends just as well in modern games, only difference is that you can be sure it's really friends and not just people enduring your company because they are forced to. OH, and RL friends don't (ab)use you? I can think of many co-workers that some call friends, I like to call them acquaintances.. (cuz deep down I know they are only temporary).. lol But that doesn't mean I can't socialize with them..
Oh, and by the way... grouping 10, 25, 40 or 100 people together to bash some mobs has never been social interaction. (your opinion)
I hate to be the devil's advocate.. but I just can't resist myself.. lol
I agree and disagree with both views being pointed out.. Both are right and wrong depending on the course of events that take place.. Let me explain.. Does forced grouping make for a better community, or should that be reworded to "encouraged" grouping? IMO, I can give plenty of examples in life where relationships would of never of started if it wasn't for the little "push" on the back.. This doesn't mean that no relationship can start without help, but building a community is much like playing anything with the odds..
It is all about the odds IMO.. Maybe it's 5%, or maybe 10% of the strangers you meet, but like a golf league I belong to.. If it wasn't for that "FORCED" interaction, I would of never had developed the new friends I did.. Think about it.. I do believe and support that encouraged group dependance can open the doors for a better community.. BUT that is dependent on the direction of the game..
Not really. There's no difference between NES, Master System generation and the XBOX, PS.
Right... The birth of XBOX LIVE(& other similar services) with the console being connected to the net isn't a BIG EFFING difference. Can't see the forest cuz of the tree in front of you much?
Wake up! THAT IS THE DIFFENCE.
Internet happenned & that's why all community have become shit. Jo the plomber can now be in your gaming & he doesn't like complicatied you know... & you better not piss him off cuz he got Roger the Farmer with him too & Felicia mother of 5 kids & ....
If that's the case then the community in EQ1 was shit because you know what? That was played on the internet.
This has nothing to do with a generation thing, that was my point.
I still say "WOW is Cancer!!! EVE cures Cancer!!!!". The biggest reason gaming communities are not what they once were. There are many many more gamers than there once were. As well as most everything connected to the web. I remember my first time playing EQ. I actually used a 56k modem :-D Much different these days. Everyone has access to the internet. So you get all types of gamers.
Not a bitter vet here. I cherish my fond memories of mmorpgs from the past. As well as the incredible communities formed then. But now with a gaming industry that is expected to surpass regular media. It is not surprising to see communities suffer from it.
Have to go with the flow! I remember 3 years ago some members here argued that mmorpgs would never go to consoles. Now we have mmorpgs going to Android very soon.
It was a different group of people who played then.
Part of it was that it was new as suggested.
The other part was that it was exclusive to a certain type of person who was willing to spend lots of time in a game.
Now you have everyone up to moms playing MMOs because they require such small time investment and you can leave the game quickly with no consequence.
There is nothing wrong with that it's just that the average person invaded the MMO space.
The other issue would be that society has change and you don't have nearly as many niche groups in general anymore. Now everyone is like one big conglomerate.
With that in mind my first experience in Ultima Online was to be killed by a fireball when I stepped out of town. In EQ it wasn't as bad because it was a PvE game. Still people would be fighting over getting kills to level up in the newbie zones and people were always kill stealing/training. That was part of the frustration/random excitement/emotion provoker.
That being said, I guess my conclusion is that game design is pretty terrible these days.
How about making a virtual world MMORPG where you see the same people, have accountability and reputation? Design systems to encourage socialization and grouping. Make people become life long friends by playing your game. Guess that's asking for to much?
"terrible" is a matter of perspective. Not everyone cares about seeing the same people in the same game everyday. Heck, many may not even play one single game day after day.
It is asking too much if there is not a big enough market for dev to invest in. What you are asking is not cheap, you know.
It's not a matter of perspective when you can quantify game design that actively discourages and outright prevents socialization vs game design that promotes and encourages it. It's objectively worse for the community.
No market for MMORPGs that promote and encourage grouping, socialization and community? Really?
Yes really .. if there is such a big market .. you thought it would be filled with many wonderful community oriented games already ... the Adam Smith's invisible hand, you know.
Worse for community play ... better for many other players. Again ... "worse" is just a preference.
Discourages socialization is good for those who don't care less about socialization.
Originally posted by Xorian7 Such fond memories of eq1 and its community and im currently playing on an rp server in stor online and its insane you get attacked just for asking questions.
Min/Max........That is the problem with games these days, gone are the times when progression & Journeys were the name of the game but now it's all about speed, grind, reach end level as fast as possible. Any one who thinks it's because of the lack of grouping is kidding themselves cause Asheron's Call had the first SOLO centric gameplay in the genre (1999) and community was outstanding because the journey was long, arduous and exciting.
EDIT: Let me be the first to say that ESO feels an awful lot like the early days of AC. Outstanding community and the game style is long and the economy is great.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
The player base changed, and games have changed with them. Real RPG's had a special following, distinct from shooters and adventure games. The kind of people who would play an early MMORPG, like DAOC say, were different than those who played Mortal Kombat. There were plenty of punks playing Mortal Kombat, but few punks enjoyed the slower group oriented play of a MMORPG.
Plus, MMORPG's required group play in most cases, so you *had* to cooperate with others. This limited the market to a small slice. Game designers wanted to bring in more customers, so they started making games that appealed to a larger market. Now we have the "action" MMORPG that appeals to the solo Mortal Kombat punks, and the games are full of them.
Sure, the game companies are making more $ now, with the larger market base, but the game community has deteriorated.
The more people that come together, the more issues there are as a result. Hell, this is the reason why governments have laws to protect individuals from each other especially. Even with that being the case, there are still plenty of immoral, malicious and "screw others to gain some upper hand in life" acts every day. Based on that, what is to be expected in a virtual world without any real consequences? Now add to that the anonymity of the internet.
That is why e-sports and instanced games are so popular. The experiences are controlled in much better ways, and griefing is simply made impossible. It is much easier to just making something impossible in a game (like ninjaing by having individual loot) than trying to use incentives and consequences to influence behavior.
Originally posted by Donpoohbear alo of people seem to have a chip on their shoulder for the knowledge they have gained. and feel like you should have scoured the wikis and online guides rather than just asking .
This and the whole necro thing on game boards now. Gamers have because ahole elitist these days. Your almost better to not go the game sites anymore. So what if someone ask a question you have seen a 100 times. Just post a link to the question or don't bother posting a reply. Posting an insult instead of helping proves how bad its got. And site mods approving of this behavior is just as bad. I've been gaming since the mid 90's and i have watched it get worse and worse every year. No such thing as respect on the internet anymore. Man i really do miss 90's internet.
If half the stuff people said on the forums were said to people's faces, there'd be fights everywhere. But since you can act like a bad ass and not have to back it up, immature people talk big.
Comments
Oh no, the nostalgia fallacy. I guess its game over for us. Pack your bags guys, your logic has been trumped. We would have seen it coming but our vision was just too cloudy from our rose colored glasses.
There's a difference between being social and needing to work together to achieve a goal. I have friends that I love to play games with, but if that games doesn't require teamwork, it's pointless for us to play together and we end up moving on. We've played a lot of games together and the most fun were Eve Online and Darkfall (I played with different people back in EQ days) because those games required teamwork. For Eve it was the pvp, Darkfall it was pve and pvp. Other MMO's we've tried playing together like Age of Conan, Rift, Neverwinter, each of us started playing and then we just kept moving, not EVER requiring a group or needing to help each other out in any way. Sure it was easy to be "SOCIAL" over voice comms or whatever, but it was no different than playing completely different games and just having conversations. Needless to say, those games didn't last us very long.
It's not about being "SOCIAL" like you're talking about, it's about collaboration and teamwork. In games where zero teamwork Is needed, people are more apt to being asshats than if they need help from others in order to advance. Like I said above, in a game where teamwork Is needed, the asshat will either adapt and stop being said asshat or will move on to a different game where he doesn't need to be nice.
Wait, old school mmos had better communities because it was harder to be a jerk? How are you not seeing the crater sized hole in that argument? SO basically you were surrounded by people who were forced to kiss your ass because of the rules of the game and you just drank it up like everybody was being sincere. lol no my friend. Those people were the worst kind of assholes, the ones who acted like your best friend so they could get their digital toys. At least the dbags in todays mmos are being transparent about it. Look, I understand the power of nostalgia. I can relate to that. I played old MMOs as well. But forced grouping making good communities? I like it how it is now better. When I socialize in an mmo today its because we want to, not because we have to. And that crucial difference makes is genuine. And yes the social interactions are more rare these days but at least they are voluntary.
Oh no, the nostalgia fallacy. I guess its game over for us. Pack your bags guys, your logic has been trumped. We would have seen it coming but our vision was just too cloudy from our rose colored glasses.
Really? Thats what you got from that? I was trying to convey that I also miss my old communities as well. You're projecting.
There's a difference between being social and needing to work together to achieve a goal. I have friends that I love to play games with, but if that games doesn't require teamwork, it's pointless for us to play together and we end up moving on. We've played a lot of games together and the most fun were Eve Online and Darkfall (I played with different people back in EQ days) because those games required teamwork. For Eve it was the pvp, Darkfall it was pve and pvp. Other MMO's we've tried playing together like Age of Conan, Rift, Neverwinter, each of us started playing and then we just kept moving, not EVER requiring a group or needing to help each other out in any way. Sure it was easy to be "SOCIAL" over voice comms or whatever, but it was no different than playing completely different games and just having conversations. Needless to say, those games didn't last us very long.
It's not about being "SOCIAL" like you're talking about, it's about collaboration and teamwork. In games where zero teamwork Is needed, people are more apt to being asshats than if they need help from others in order to advance. Like I said above, in a game where teamwork Is needed, the asshat will either adapt and stop being said asshat or will move on to a different game where he doesn't need to be nice.
All modern mmorpgs have group content. All the ones you listed have it. Raids, dungeons, battlegrounds, arenas, world bosses etc. It may look different than older mmos but its still there.
This.
People hoard knowledge in MMOs, where once upon a time they used to eagerly give it away.
"I know something you don't, neener."
Insecurity.
Big difference.
No, I'm not. You were reaching just to connect hidden greed or passive aggression to the outright disrespect found in modern games with no accountability. You knew it wouldn't fly so you fell back on nostalgia like we are somehow misremembering.
At my job, I don't always like everyone, and some people may not like me, but I nod when I pass them in the hall and when I work together with them we still get shit done. There is a level of respect, because its important if we want to keep our jobs. Often, upon working together, people get to know each other better and end up becoming friends. It was the same scenario in older games where players needed each other. That doesn't exist today.
Citing a few different forms of group gameplay means nothing compared to games where all forms of progression require grouping. It also means nothing when the press of a single button joins you to a new group, generally with people you've never played with before and will never play with again.
It's not a matter of perspective when you can quantify game design that actively discourages and outright prevents socialization vs game design that promotes and encourages it. It's objectively worse for the community.
No market for MMORPGs that promote and encourage grouping, socialization and community? Really?
That and you have stated you don't care about the community in MMOs at all and play them like single player games. So no offense but your credibility on this topic is pretty minimal, but if I wanted to know about single player MMOs and how to play without ever involving oneself with the community I'd consider you an expert.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Pretty much this..
Every game that I have played in recent years is nothing more then solo games, where being a doofus is acceptable, and then you have the esport co-op mentality of my gang is better then your gang.. I have not seen a community building MMO since.. (can't remember).. Too much of this generation reflects the real SELFISH world we live in.. /shrug
+1, today's MMO are mostly console games
Not really. There's no difference between NES, Master System generation and the XBOX, PS.
I hate to be the devil's advocate.. but I just can't resist myself.. lol
I agree and disagree with both views being pointed out.. Both are right and wrong depending on the course of events that take place.. Let me explain.. Does forced grouping make for a better community, or should that be reworded to "encouraged" grouping? IMO, I can give plenty of examples in life where relationships would of never of started if it wasn't for the little "push" on the back.. This doesn't mean that no relationship can start without help, but building a community is much like playing anything with the odds..
It is all about the odds IMO.. Maybe it's 5%, or maybe 10% of the strangers you meet, but like a golf league I belong to.. If it wasn't for that "FORCED" interaction, I would of never had developed the new friends I did.. Think about it.. I do believe and support that encouraged group dependance can open the doors for a better community.. BUT that is dependent on the direction of the game..
If that's the case then the community in EQ1 was shit because you know what? That was played on the internet.
This has nothing to do with a generation thing, that was my point.
I still say "WOW is Cancer!!! EVE cures Cancer!!!!". The biggest reason gaming communities are not what they once were. There are many many more gamers than there once were. As well as most everything connected to the web. I remember my first time playing EQ. I actually used a 56k modem :-D Much different these days. Everyone has access to the internet. So you get all types of gamers.
Not a bitter vet here. I cherish my fond memories of mmorpgs from the past. As well as the incredible communities formed then. But now with a gaming industry that is expected to surpass regular media. It is not surprising to see communities suffer from it.
Have to go with the flow! I remember 3 years ago some members here argued that mmorpgs would never go to consoles. Now we have mmorpgs going to Android very soon.
How things have changed!
I don't think the people were better.
It was a different group of people who played then.
Part of it was that it was new as suggested.
The other part was that it was exclusive to a certain type of person who was willing to spend lots of time in a game.
Now you have everyone up to moms playing MMOs because they require such small time investment and you can leave the game quickly with no consequence.
There is nothing wrong with that it's just that the average person invaded the MMO space.
The other issue would be that society has change and you don't have nearly as many niche groups in general anymore. Now everyone is like one big conglomerate.
With that in mind my first experience in Ultima Online was to be killed by a fireball when I stepped out of town. In EQ it wasn't as bad because it was a PvE game. Still people would be fighting over getting kills to level up in the newbie zones and people were always kill stealing/training. That was part of the frustration/random excitement/emotion provoker.
Yes really .. if there is such a big market .. you thought it would be filled with many wonderful community oriented games already ... the Adam Smith's invisible hand, you know.
Worse for community play ... better for many other players. Again ... "worse" is just a preference.
Discourages socialization is good for those who don't care less about socialization.
Min/Max........That is the problem with games these days, gone are the times when progression & Journeys were the name of the game but now it's all about speed, grind, reach end level as fast as possible. Any one who thinks it's because of the lack of grouping is kidding themselves cause Asheron's Call had the first SOLO centric gameplay in the genre (1999) and community was outstanding because the journey was long, arduous and exciting.
EDIT: Let me be the first to say that ESO feels an awful lot like the early days of AC. Outstanding community and the game style is long and the economy is great.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
The player base changed, and games have changed with them. Real RPG's had a special following, distinct from shooters and adventure games. The kind of people who would play an early MMORPG, like DAOC say, were different than those who played Mortal Kombat. There were plenty of punks playing Mortal Kombat, but few punks enjoyed the slower group oriented play of a MMORPG.
Plus, MMORPG's required group play in most cases, so you *had* to cooperate with others. This limited the market to a small slice. Game designers wanted to bring in more customers, so they started making games that appealed to a larger market. Now we have the "action" MMORPG that appeals to the solo Mortal Kombat punks, and the games are full of them.
Sure, the game companies are making more $ now, with the larger market base, but the game community has deteriorated.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
That is why e-sports and instanced games are so popular. The experiences are controlled in much better ways, and griefing is simply made impossible. It is much easier to just making something impossible in a game (like ninjaing by having individual loot) than trying to use incentives and consequences to influence behavior.
This and the whole necro thing on game boards now. Gamers have because ahole elitist these days. Your almost better to not go the game sites anymore. So what if someone ask a question you have seen a 100 times. Just post a link to the question or don't bother posting a reply. Posting an insult instead of helping proves how bad its got. And site mods approving of this behavior is just as bad. I've been gaming since the mid 90's and i have watched it get worse and worse every year. No such thing as respect on the internet anymore. Man i really do miss 90's internet.
If half the stuff people said on the forums were said to people's faces, there'd be fights everywhere. But since you can act like a bad ass and not have to back it up, immature people talk big.