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Trinity is still the superior combat mechanic, by a large margin.

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  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Yep, nothing challenging at all.... not like you have to write a full essay to properly explain aggro mechanics...

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Aggro

    Outsmarting an AI is easy. Doing it with taunts is even easier. Try PvP for challenge.

    Tell that to Kasparov ;)

    Trinity dumb AI is easy to outsmart because its deliberately dumb, because if it wasnt trinity wouldnt work.

    And dumb AI requires hard limited scripts that lead to encounters that become very boring very quickly (like rubiks cube, once you crack it, fun is over)

    So its lot of resources for very limited return.

    Ive said time and time again that MMOs need to find a way to keep mostly all content relevant, not just latest instance.

    That also means ditching some "traditional" ways, trinity included.

    Knowing the mechanics of a fight is not the same as executing it. 

    Anyone who has raided high-end content in a game like WoW can attest to the FACT that their is skill involved, quite a bit of it, and also has dozens of examples/stories of times where their best wasn't enough, or they had a group that just didn't get it, and of course of that ONE time they executed the fight perfectly - everyone was focused and did their jobs well and the pieces all lined up just enough to get that kill...

    Yeah gear is a part of that, but (at least back in the day) getting gear and managing it was also a skill that was required to raid. You had to do the pre-reqs, get enough gear from enough sources to be ready for the content, spend time and effort to optimize your gear via enchants and gems, hell even customizing your experience with add-ons and such was something you had to learn.

    I have a feeling people who say trinity combat is "dumb" and doesn't require any skill and isn't challenging in any way really haven't done it. 

    So they're either a liar - or actually really good and all of the pieces and skills required they possess already - so it is "easy" for them to do it right - which FYI doesn't mean it is easy - just that it is easy for YOU because YOU are good at it.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,378
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Outsmarting an AI is easy. Doing it with taunts is even easier. Try PvP for challenge.

    Tell that to Kasparov ;)

    Exactly. Chess is definitely not based on any trinity crap, and is PvP. And the rules don't change for when the opponent is a computer instead of a human.

    We already know that trinity with a threat table doesn't work in PvP, and that's what makes PvP always more challenging and unpredictable than PvE threat based fights.

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
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  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.

    As I already said, this is total nonsense. Forced friends aren't friends if they only endure your presence because they need you to achieve their own goals.

    Real friends aren't forced.

     

    I think many real friends ARE forced.

    The fact we socialise in the first place is because of survivability reasons, many creatures are loners, humans are not. We hunted in packs, that's why we have social skills, because of interdependence.

    It is no different in some MMO. You are stronger together, you create a bond, the bond requires mutual trust -> you make long lasting friends.

    It is the same reason people who went to prison remember every person there when asked. It is the same reason soldiers remember every single person in their squat. It is the same reasons why one of my best friends is a person I got lost with in the woods and almost didn't make it out. And it is the same reason EQ players still remember half the people they played with.

    In fact, many of my friends from EQ I still talk to daily.

    The harsh experiences bind you.

    You are actively being forced to get to know the other person. You are forced to trust the other person. You are forced to get along with the other person. And eventually you create a bond.

    Can you make friends without those experiences? Yes. Is it the same thing? No.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,378

    Gotta love when people compare real life with what happens in video games.

    Even then, it still doesn't make sense. In real life, you meet people who are acquaintances. Some of them may become friends someday, others not.

    How many people one works with become close friends? Work is actually an excellent real life exemple of what happens in forced grouping MMOs. You are kinda forced to work, at least most of us, yet very few of those people you are forced to meet become friends. You have to endure even the asshats and the dipshits, but real friends from work are rare.

    I personally made more friends from random encounters, be it through other friends, or at a Pub, or whatever other leisure activity, than through forced activities like work.

    Real life work = forced grouping with trinity, you need others, you have to use them to achieve your goal, like feeding your family or buying that new car.

    Real life leisure = Hanging out with people you enjoy the company of without being forced to = non-trinity non forced grouping MMORPG.

    And the prison part is actually hilarious. Yeah, you go to prison, you remember everyone... specially Billy Bob who forced you to pickup the soap in the shower, right?

    You make a lot of confusion between acquaintances and friends...

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
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  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Yep, nothing challenging at all.... not like you have to write a full essay to properly explain aggro mechanics...

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Aggro

    Outsmarting an AI is easy. Doing it with taunts is even easier. Try PvP for challenge.

    Tell that to Kasparov ;)

    Trinity dumb AI is easy to outsmart because its deliberately dumb, because if it wasnt trinity wouldnt work.

    And dumb AI requires hard limited scripts that lead to encounters that become very boring very quickly (like rubiks cube, once you crack it, fun is over)

    So its lot of resources for very limited return.

    Ive said time and time again that MMOs need to find a way to keep mostly all content relevant, not just latest instance.

    That also means ditching some "traditional" ways, trinity included.

    Knowing the mechanics of a fight is not the same as executing it. 

    Anyone who has raided high-end content in a game like WoW can attest to the FACT that their is skill involved, quite a bit of it, and also has dozens of examples/stories of times where their best wasn't enough, or they had a group that just didn't get it, and of course of that ONE time they executed the fight perfectly - everyone was focused and did their jobs well and the pieces all lined up just enough to get that kill...

    Yeah gear is a part of that, but (at least back in the day) getting gear and managing it was also a skill that was required to raid. You had to do the pre-reqs, get enough gear from enough sources to be ready for the content, spend time and effort to optimize your gear via enchants and gems, hell even customizing your experience with add-ons and such was something you had to learn.

    I have a feeling people who say trinity combat is "dumb" and doesn't require any skill and isn't challenging in any way really haven't done it. 

    So they're either a liar - or actually really good and all of the pieces and skills required they possess already - so it is "easy" for them to do it right - which FYI doesn't mean it is easy - just that it is easy for YOU because YOU are good at it.

    All that it takes is competent group and willigness to dump people if they cant perform. Dont kid yourself, theres nothiing all that social about progression.

    And trinity hasnt really changed a lot in 10 years, so its not like its something completely new and unknown, it works on same principle (a bit more streamlined) for very long time now.

    Just read post above and youll get the picture. L2 was even more competitive than WoW ever was/will be.

    AI in trinity is dumb, thats a fact.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Here is another example for you.

    That's great and all, but those pictures don't picture the hours and hours wasted trying to get something bought or sold and failing because of how clunky the system was.  Nor do they capture the spammy trade chat which you're calling " a community".

    Rose-colored glasses.

    Meanwhile actual socialization still happens in modern MMORPGs, like the other poster said.  Not this trade spam you're calling socialization.  That's only socialization in the same way that spamming your FB friends for bricks in Farmville was "social" -- just because you're required to beg from others, that doesn't mean that's socializing.

    It is socialising, people told whole stories in EQ, we talked about real life, people got married in EQ, people made long lasting friends in EQ.

    How many true friends does the average ArcheAge player have? The average GW2 player?

    You're under the impression that the people making true friends and getting married in EQ were the average EQ player, which brings us back to the whole rose-colored glasses thing. 

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    It is socialising, people told whole stories in EQ, we talked about real life, people got married in EQ, people made long lasting friends in EQ.

    How many true friends does the average ArcheAge player have? The average GW2 player?

    When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.

    I find it highly unlikely that the ~10 early MMORPGs I played differed much from EQ.  Trade chat in these games was not a place of stories, real life chatter, and marriage.  Not even close.  It was an endless spam of trade requests.

    If anything, more socialization happens in modern trade chat due to the lack of trade spam.

    Your closing statement is true, and segways into a discussion of "Should gaming be deliberately terrible, for the sake of a little socialization?", but we were talking about trade specifically and trade just wasn't a significant source of socializing.  It was impersonal spam.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Trinity used to be a pretty good system, except that it tends to lead to people hugging the same spot while rotating skills. That is easy to improve though but the problem is that the current trinity is extremely simplified nowadays.

    The simplified trinity also makes the games far more similar to play than trinity games like M59 and Everquest.

    Acttion combat have it's bad sides as well, the good stuff though is that timing and positioning is important there.

    I think we need a new trinity instead of the old, it is beyond salvation now.

    Focus on offence, defence and support instead, get rid of taunts and focus on timing things together with other team members. And for gods sake, get rid of skill rotation. When using the right skill at the right time is a matter of death people can't just spamm the same skill or the same rotation and actually have to think while they play.

    Keep healing limited as well (less than most modern games but more than GW2), being able to fight forever due to heals doesn't actually make combat more fun but good timed heals should be a winner, having too much heal though just means the healer can spamm them.

    MMOs need something new now, we have gotten a constantly simplified trinity mechanics the last 12 years and the fun in it just isn't there anymore. We could try to make it more advanced again but it would be easier and probably more fun to add something new and original instead. 

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    It is socialising, people told whole stories in EQ, we talked about real life, people got married in EQ, people made long lasting friends in EQ.

    How many true friends does the average ArcheAge player have? The average GW2 player?

    When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.

    I find it highly unlikely that the ~10 early MMORPGs I played differed much from EQ.  Trade chat in these games was not a place of stories, real life chatter, and marriage.  Not even close.  It was an endless spam of trade requests.

    If anything, more socialization happens in modern trade chat due to the lack of trade spam.

    Your closing statement is true, and segways into a discussion of "Should gaming be deliberately terrible, for the sake of a little socialization?", but we were talking about trade specifically and trade just wasn't a significant source of socializing.  It was impersonal spam.

    You are right. The best chat I seen was actually Lineage because there you earned the right to chat, low level characters couldn't use it and spammers got banned (at least in the beginning).

    But Ki also have a point, friends in the old days were rather different from now, maybe that was because we were a small bunch of people with common interests back then. When everybody games it is harder to find like minded.

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236

     

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.

    As I already said, this is total nonsense. Forced friends aren't friends if they only endure your presence because they need you to achieve their own goals.

    Real friends aren't forced.

     

    I think many real friends ARE forced.

    The fact we socialise in the first place is because of survivability reasons, many creatures are loners, humans are not. We hunted in packs, that's why we have social skills, because of interdependence.

    It is no different in some MMO. You are stronger together, you create a bond, the bond requires mutual trust -> you make long lasting friends.

    It is the same reason people who went to prison remember every person there when asked. It is the same reason soldiers remember every single person in their squat. It is the same reasons why one of my best friends is a person I got lost with in the woods and almost didn't make it out. And it is the same reason EQ players still remember half the people they played with.

    In fact, many of my friends from EQ I still talk to daily.

    The harsh experiences bind you.

    You are actively being forced to get to know the other person. You are forced to trust the other person. You are forced to get along with the other person. And eventually you create a bond.

    Can you make friends without those experiences? Yes. Is it the same thing? No.

    Its a fact of life.  Shared adversity creates a sense of community.  Thats the premise EQ was based on and the element lacking in modern mmos.  Its fine if people only want fast shallow mmo gaming, but some people really enjoy interdependence and there is no arguing that the games that had it managed to keep a healthy playerbase longer than those without.


  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,378
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    You're under the impression that the people making true friends and getting married in EQ were the average EQ player, which brings us back to the whole rose-colored glasses thing. 

    Oh, don't laugh... some players really think that the random dude he raids with 2x a week, and that's it, is a "friend".

    I guess them and us give a different value to the word "friend" then.

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
    edited September 2015
     
    Post edited by ArtificeVenatus on
  • eye_meye_m Member UncommonPosts: 3,317

    saying the trinity is superior merely implies that the person can't think for themselves. It's a confined mode of play used for people who can't actually collaborate with other players and self sacrifice for the benefit of the group. It seems perfect for the individual who plays a more open gamestyle then claims it's nothing but dps, but to say it's actually better is simply false.  The forced trinity guides people into a direction that limits the need for a player to think, communicate, and actually try to accomplish the task at hand.

    Tell me this; What actually sounds more like a game?  

    1) you stand at a fork in the road, and there are three paths you can choose from. Which do you take?

    or

    2) you stand at a fork in the road, and you are wearing a blue shirt so you take the road with the blue line down it.

     

    notice the lack of a question mark at the end of 2?

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

    I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
    edited September 2015

     

    Post edited by ArtificeVenatus on
  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    When the game confronts you with a harsh environment, you make true friends. When the game make all classes into DPS and don't make classes dependent on each other (because they want everyone to be able to solo), you don't depend on each other, and you don't have long lasting friends.

    As I already said, this is total nonsense. Forced friends aren't friends if they only endure your presence because they need you to achieve their own goals.

    Real friends aren't forced.

    And also, I made more friends in AC1, people I still meet in real life, than in any other game. AC1 didn't have any of the trinity crap or the forced grouping crap. That was a true community, not a forced one.

    I still raid in WoW, but people raiding with me for most will never become friends. They are acquaintances. Killing video game bosses a few hours a week with me doesn't make someone a friend. Friends come what happens outside the playing, when you know people for more than just their video game character. And for that, you don't need forced grouping or trinity.

     

    Spot on.  image

    This is why i always find it funny that people want to be forced to socialize.  They reminisce about the good old days of camping and socializing, as if they had a choice.  The socialization was just the side effect of terrible game design.

    In my 10 years of WoW, i've never made a friend through dungeons, raiding, or farming.  I have made many friends though by actually congregating at regular social spots, such as goldshire or other dueling areas, and i still keep in contact with some of them for almost 4 years now.  None of it was forced.

    As for trinity gameplay, it's not superior, it's just an older mechanic that people enjoy.  I prefer action-combat though, because it's more mobile and reactive.

    I also find it funny that people always refer to GW2 as if it's the only action-combat MMO out there.  ESO, WS, TSW, Tera, and others also have action-combat, but nobody ever mentions them, because they actually do it quite well.

  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,035
    Originally posted by IfrianMMO

    How is any combat system "he superior combat mechanic" to begin with?

    I personally favor Japanese Online Action RPGS (Such as Phantasy Star Online 2) because your personal skill matters a lot, the action is real time (So you have to block, dodge and anticipate attacks) but you still have to be a part of a cohesive unit and some bosses cannot be defeated unless the party organizes to exploit some mechanics.

    To make a very simple example, there is a boss that attacks you on a "ship" (think of levi in FFXIV) and you have to balance both DPSing him and harpooning him because otherwise he just swim away and begins to throw one-hit KO lasers around.

    Whle this may sound simple on text,  to manage enough harpoons while dodging in real time and attempting not to die to the absurd amount of traps, minions and omfgimafiringmahlazors is something really exciting and challenging.

    But that does not mean the battle system is "superior" to something else, it simply means that such a battle system is what i enjoy doing and how i enjoy fighting stuff.

    I think this kind of stuff is extremely subjective and there is no definite answer because it depends on whatever you like.

    Trinity isn't a combat system, that's the thing you dipshits don't seem to understand.

    TESO has ACTION COMBAT, but it also has a trinity system.  Healers, Tanks, and DPS Classes.

    Combat Systems aren't mutually exclusive with whether or not you have a Trinity System.

    So why are you still pushing this tangent and completely unrelated discussion?  It has nothing to do with the Trinity System.  Maybe the Pace of Combat annoys you in some Trinity Games, but that also has nothing to do with Trinity or even the combat system since Developers can balance that without ever touching the combat mechanics, by simply changing numbers in various players (Skill/Melee/Spell damage, MOB Health, Crit Rates, Base Crit Damage and Modifiers, etc.).

     

     

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979

    I just don't see the appeal...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcX9ffcaH34

    It's... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS... DPS.... profit?

     

     

     

  • R3d.GallowsR3d.Gallows Member UncommonPosts: 155
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I just don't see the appeal...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcX9ffcaH34

    It's... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS... DPS.... profit?

    Pretty much how I see most non-trinity games - a messy clusterfuck of people playing next to eachother and not with eachother.

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
    edited September 2015
     
    Post edited by ArtificeVenatus on
  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
    edited September 2015
     
    Post edited by ArtificeVenatus on
  • SkymourneSkymourne Member UncommonPosts: 380
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I just don't see the appeal...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcX9ffcaH34

    It's... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS... DPS.... profit?

     

     

     

    I completely agree with you.  Guild Wars 2 will always need to be something it never will be to me.  I enjoy specializing in healing.  It's what i choose to do when i play MMO's.  While 90% of GW2 is exactly what I've always wanted, not being able to focus and heal is what will always frustrate me about what i feel is a missed opportunity for the game to dominate the market.  

    I hear these arguments that no trinity, specifically in this game, is superior in every way, yet it boils down to a bunch of dps not wanting to rely on tanks or heals.  Guess they got tired of 45 minute queues in whatever games they came from.  I love the idea of people being able to specialize in roles and having a place in the game.  No matter how much these folks try to tell me that there ARE specializations and roles, it won't matter, because all that matters in GW2 is Zerker gear groups or go home.  That's all the game is.

  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,035
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been ....

    ...collision detection, smart AI, skill-based systems, turn-based systems...

     But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine. 

    Come on man, by far the most popular "action combat" mmo is GW2, the rest have all done pretty terribly (Tera, Wildstar, etc).  The only people who truly *like* those systems are the ones who hate trinity.  Everyone else either is indifferent or hates it.  And he is absolutely right, i put something like 300 hours into GW2 and not once, literally not once, did i ever see anyone doing anything other than zerging stuff.  I tried to get people to work together but i might as well have been talking to bricks.  People don't play games like that for the group experience, they play it because they're playing it like they would a single player RPG.

    People zerg stuff in tirnity games.

    Whats your point really? If you play on zerg levels, youll get zerg, no matter trinity or not.

    People like trinity because its simplistic, lazy combat system. Even to the point of calling it superior.

    Its superior just on subjective level, objectivly its inferior in every way. To each his own.

         Yes, anything can be zerged, but you fail to understand in the context that it's being used..  Zerging is just basically rushing the mob with numbers will little to no strategy or skill..   I've played GW2 and Tera of late and that is exactly how they play..  Both are action games that focus on complete solo ability..   I wouldn't call trinity combat lazy..  Any combat can be lazy if it's designed to be so..  I can play Call of Duty on "recruit" mode and just mindlessly shoot my way through the game without a care in the world..  Mobs are slow and inaccurate..  However, if I crank it up, I'll end up dying often from head shots 200m away..  Same game, same mechanics.. 

         Tera is a good example of that.. Mobs are slow to charge or attack me..  For crying out loud, I have the mob 1/2 dead before it even gets ONE chance to hit me, and even then it "telegraphs" it's move giving me plenty of time to move out of the way..  Tera is lazier and easier then playing Call of Duty on "recruit" mode.. LOL   However, I wouldn't use WoW as the poster child for good role combat either..  The overuse of "taunt" is just insanely borning, and turns the world into "AOE" combat which isn't any better then zergfest you see in GW2 or Tera.. 

         But as I have preached about for years..  I want to see a game that allows for solo/group combat in the open world, and gives us classes that fullfill over a DOZEN different roles.. But that isn't going to happen until we start ignoring PvP balance in a PvE game.. 

    Thanks for agreeing with me on zerg thing, if it can be zerged it will be zerged.

    And TERA is aslo not good system, its bad mix of old and new. "AoEfest" happened in EVERY game, again, trinity or no trinity.

    And las, that can only happen if yu ditch trinity and make everyone be everything. And PvP balance is important, in PvE only thing that matters is "if you can beat it with certain stuff you want it to be beaten" because of uber stupid opponents. Devs wont make PvE on PvP level for obvious reasons - only 1% could compete (unless you again dumb mobs to act as bads)

    And, not just for you, using things that are not related to combat system as proof just shows you dont really understand what combat system is, and what combat system isnt.

    PvP is no different.  Disparities in Character Level, Class (some being OP/IMBA or UP), Gear Quality, etc. all throw PvP balance out of whack.

    Which is why PvP is such a problem, especially in games with systems designed for PvE.

    Balancing PvP isn't just a matter of saying "there you go, go PvP and have fun."  The entire game systems in games like EQ were designed around PvMonster combat. Wizards were 1 shotting people with Mana Burn because, while the damage and cooldown was completely justified vs. MOBs with high health pools who did a ton of damage, it was completely out of whack against players with pitiful health pools who died the minute it hit them.

    A lot of PvE games bold PvP on, and it causes all sorts of issues.  WoW has tons of class balance issues thanks to PvP, and they still haven't nailed it yet.

    We have a lot of MOBAs masquerading as MMORPGs.  GW2 isn't really an MMORPG in the vein of EQ2, WoW, and other games.  It's more of a MOBA.  The game's class and combat systems were designed first and foremost for eSport PvP.  That's why the PvE content in that game is largely an afterthought and that's why it has its own dedicated niche of players - the rest play it because... cheap is cheap and you get what you paid for.

    Even without the Trinity, those games have severe character development, replayability (very repetitive gameplay with shallow content to exacerbate it), and end game PvE content issues.  They have given up the Trinity as a selling point, but it has completely hamstrung them in other ways.

    Also, you're argument is extremely weak.  Games designed like GW2 are more prone to zerging that Trinity MMORPG.  In fact, GW2 actively encourages zerging.  It's how people do all the public events.  There is no support.  It's just a huge mass of people mashing buttons and throwing down AoE pads with no thought whatsoever put into it.

    Another reason why many people don't like Action Combat system is because they are more suitable to console/controller play than to a PC.  We have things like MMO Mice and Gamepads that make playing games with more skill bars trivial these days.  But the way the Active Blocking and dodging works plays a lot better on a controller.  I guarantee you TESO will play better on consoles than on PC/Mac when it launches.  The controls in that game were basically designed for that and the developers just used PC games as a way to cash in early while they finish developing the console releases.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus
    Originally posted by Darksworm

    Trinity isn't a combat system, that's the thing you dipshits don't seem to understand.

    TESO has ACTION COMBAT, but it also has a trinity system.  Healers, Tanks, and DPS Classes.

    Combat Systems aren't mutually exclusive with whether or not you have a Trinity System.

    Oh *sigh* And that is why when discussing the trinity system, we speak of interdependence and playstyle, while the other side of the argument is every character can do everything. But it does involve the combat system and how it is implemented, just a different aspect of it from the "action vs traditional" debates. So yeah, it is understood.

    Talking about trinity when you mean interdependence is misleading. Depending on where you come from trinity specifically means either the EQ style Tank-Heal-Control or the more popular one Tank-Heal-DPS. Both rely on aggro manipulation by taunts. Taunts are the key to both styles of trinity.

    When people come out against trinity system, likely they mean they don't like the tank 'n' spank style combat encounters both systems use. That is why it doesn't matter to them which trinity specifically we are talking about.

    The other side of the argument is not about how every character should do everything. Its about what those combat roles should be or could be instead. The trinity is the predominant form to do combat roles in MMORPGs, but not the only one. MMORPGs with action combat do have roles (any game with any level of specialization has roles), they're just not necessarily the trinity ones.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,378
    Originally posted by Skymourne
     I enjoy specializing in healing.

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
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