Not really, in fact ArcheAge was going to be amazing according to this forum. It was going to show how amazing a non-trinity game would be.
It had a massive budget and massive fanbase before release.
The designer used the same arguments as you, trinity was outdated, EQ is stupid, bla bla bla.
The game came out, and it fell flat on it's face like a pancake. Complaints about the gameplay, complaints about lack of community, etc etc etc
Sounds familiar?
There are games with action combat that are ok as a game onto it's own. But don't pretend like these games that can barely muster a community, with small scale raiding, without class interdependence, are somehow worthy of the MMORPG title, because they're not. They are console game with a watered down combat system and watered down zerg raids.
Not really, in fact ArcheAge was going to be amazing according to this forum. It was going to show how amazing a non-trinity game would be.
It had a massive budget and massive fanbase before release.
The designer used the same arguments as you, trinity was outdated, EQ is stupid, bla bla bla.
The game came out, and it fell flat on it's face like a pancake. Complaints about the gameplay, complaints about lack of community, etc etc etc
Sounds familiar?
There are games with action combat that are ok as a game onto it's own. But don't pretend like these games that can barely muster a community, with small scale raiding, without class interdependence, are somehow worthy of the MMORPG title, because they're not. They are console game with a watered down combat system and watered down zerg raids.
Oh my gosh, peoplecomplaining about a game on forums. Quick, get the media.
Most complained MMO in the world is WoW. Its much worse than anything AA related.
And EQ saw crapton of complaining 1999-2004. In 2004> theres only few people left to complain about it lol
And stop with the community thingy, because youre just ranting nonsense by now, youve been told how it is already, do i need to quote myself every time you go on a rant lol
Oh and same "bitter vets" proclaimed AA will be awesome. With same blinders and same nostalgia like you have for EQ lol
Don't blame your ineptitude to socialize when not forced to on the game. The problem is between your chair and keyboard, not in the game mechanics.
Prove it then. Don't be all talk.
Put your money where your mouth is.
Show me something of a current action MMO where there is a community.
Let's see those examples then.
Show me a trading post like in EQ:
show me a mass group buff where the community gathers:
show me a 100 man PoP raid:
So if someone posts screenshots of a mass of characters crowding around in game will you be convinced that good communities also exist in the mmos which you have broadly lumped together as all Korean/Asian games and games with action combat?
This must have been in Guild Wars 2, and I dread to think this is the future of MMO. There might be some ambiguity about what is considered /zerging/ but your example would fit that bill.
I have to agree with Kiyoris. When we did Sendaii in Everquest, we weren't running back and forth, spamming abilitiy after ability.
This must have been in Guild Wars 2, and I dread to think this is the future of MMO. There might be some ambiguity about what is considered /zerging/ but your example would fit that bill.
I have to agree with Kiyoris. When we did Sendaii in Everquest, we weren't running back and forth, spamming abilitiy after ability.
I've played several FPSes with small but close-knit communities. Players know one another, greet one another when they come online and chat while they're dead etc. - even when they're not in the same clan or in a clan at all.
You play a lot of these competitive non-MMORPGs like I do, and you notice the people around you. You'll learn the players in your ladder/league. You learn their habits and their tendencies. You might exchange a few words like: "I saw your match against such and such. What a crazy ending.", for example. Or maybe you have something to bitch about with the latest patch. And that's how it starts.
Whenever someone complains that "the community is gone" or that nobody socializes anymore, I can't help but feel that these people aren't really trying. Such things are not exclusive to MMORPGs, trinity combat or forced grouping. I've made several long lasting friendships by playing games that have/are none of those things.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Whats your point really? If you play on zerg levels, youll get zerg, no matter trinity or not.
People like trinity because its simplistic, lazy combat system. Even to the point of calling it superior.
Its superior just on subjective level, objectivly its inferior in every way. To each his own.
But it's just mindless dps and doding during which you can't talk! As opposed to tank spank and whackamole during which you CAN talk because it's that mindless. Yes you designate someone to tank in a certain position, someone to stand behind the target, and someone to sit somewhere safely to heal people. So complex. Oh my god. The mental strain.
Getting tired of this hag's shrieking, if I wanted to listen to some old broken record I'd phone my mother.
If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.
Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.
Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.
There is no such thing as "too much DPS".
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
The Original Holy Trinity was Tank, Heals and Control (EQ1) (everyone dpsed even clerics in (unless in complete heal rotation) PoP)
World of Warcraft adjusted it to Tank Heals DPS
Frankly if we went back to Tank, Heals and Control it will bring back elements to the game that frankly make the game challenging. Crowd Control via Debuffs or mezzes or sheeping or whatever made the games fun and exciting.
Vanguard used a Tank Class Dread Knights longer it was engaged on a boss the less effective the bosses hits were on the Tank, Shamans slowed and debuffed mobs to where their hits were manageable.
So yes the holy trinity is the best form in my mind but the third item (DPS) could be changed.
If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.
Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.
There is no such thing as "too much DPS".
There were fail mechanics in EQ if you did too much DPS.
In tacvi for example there were 4 mobs, the only way to kill them, was by killing them all 4 in the exactly same manner.
So when mob A was at 56% health, mob B, C and D had to be too.
You split your raid of 54 in 4 and you contiously talked to each other and you had health leaders coordinating mob health acrross teams.
If some idiot in your raid pushed the wrong ability, or attacked when he shouldn't have, your raid would wipe.
If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.
Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.
Yeah, you couldn't zerg anymore after they added instances, right?
But instances are evil and kill the community, right?
Oops...
Uhm, LDON introduced instancing, not Gates of Discord.
If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.
Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.
Yeah, you couldn't zerg anymore after they added instances, right?
But instances are evil and kill the community, right?
Oops...
Uhm, LDON introduced instancing, not Gates of Discord.
You're off by only a few years...
Sorry, my EQ memories are far away (with no regrets at all).
Then it was still a zerg. With the enemy not adapting to the number of attackers, all you have to do is bring numbers, aka zerg it. EQ bosses, before instances, were just massive zergs.
Before Gates of Discord, many mobs were "tank 'n spank", or "sandbags". This is true. They had AE and some other mechnanics, but they didn't have massive amounts of ads or special scripts.
However, this was at the advent of large scale raiding, at that time, most people had never heard of MMO, let alone played them, let alone participated in a 100 man raid.
After PoP however (and post PoP is the largest majority of the game by far), the raids were the most complex and the hardest raids I have ever been involved in in an MMO.
Fail in EQ, meant fail, it wiped 54 people, it cost a lot of time, it cost a lot of XP, it was a nailbiting and thrilling experience so many times.
That's something I have never felt in today's MMO.
Many of today's MMO feel like playing street fighter and just spamming attacks.
The Original Holy Trinity was Tank, Heals and Control (EQ1) (everyone dpsed even clerics in (unless in complete heal rotation) PoP)
World of Warcraft adjusted it to Tank Heals DPS
Frankly if we went back to Tank, Heals and Control it will bring back elements to the game that frankly make the game challenging. Crowd Control via Debuffs or mezzes or sheeping or whatever made the games fun and exciting.
Vanguard used a Tank Class Dread Knights longer it was engaged on a boss the less effective the bosses hits were on the Tank, Shamans slowed and debuffed mobs to where their hits were manageable.
So yes the holy trinity is the best form in my mind but the third item (DPS) could be changed.
If we'd abolish taunts and hard CC (long lasting mez, sleep etc.) we'd have some challenge.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Actually, World of Warcraft improved it to Tank, Heal, DPS with Control available to all other roles.
Bazinga!
The CC was actually required for Vanilla, BC, and parts of Cata. Kind of funny how over the years they spread around the CC love some more, giving more abilities to more classes, but also made it just about completely unnecessary by super-inflating damage, tank survivability, and healing.
Comments
Yes, action MMO are flawless.
ArcheAge has no flaws......
I won't argue with you further, your arguments are ridiculous.
flawless:
AA is not "action MMO" rofl
And the only one mentioning AA is you
It's a non-trinity game, in fact the designer has mentioned his DISLIKE for trinity several times.
It's a game with button mashing.
To me, that's action MMO.
Not surprisingly, this results in player complaints, because people can't play a WELL DEFINED ROLE... such as in trinity
hey look, non-trinity games have a flawed combat system where speccing a role except for DPS doesn't work..SHOCKER
Not really, in fact ArcheAge was going to be amazing according to this forum. It was going to show how amazing a non-trinity game would be.
It had a massive budget and massive fanbase before release.
The designer used the same arguments as you, trinity was outdated, EQ is stupid, bla bla bla.
The game came out, and it fell flat on it's face like a pancake. Complaints about the gameplay, complaints about lack of community, etc etc etc
Sounds familiar?
There are games with action combat that are ok as a game onto it's own. But don't pretend like these games that can barely muster a community, with small scale raiding, without class interdependence, are somehow worthy of the MMORPG title, because they're not. They are console game with a watered down combat system and watered down zerg raids.
Btw, 20 ppl is not a RAID.
100+ people with a designed tank, designated healers, designated roles.
THAT is a raid. It's a well oiled machine that works and took time to build and takes time to maintain. And that's what EQ had.
So excuse us if we think that current action MMO that play like watered down versions of hello kitty online, are not MMO.
Oh my gosh, peoplecomplaining about a game on forums. Quick, get the media.
Most complained MMO in the world is WoW. Its much worse than anything AA related.
And EQ saw crapton of complaining 1999-2004. In 2004> theres only few people left to complain about it lol
And stop with the community thingy, because youre just ranting nonsense by now, youve been told how it is already, do i need to quote myself every time you go on a rant lol
Oh and same "bitter vets" proclaimed AA will be awesome. With same blinders and same nostalgia like you have for EQ lol
What amazing MMO Malaboga do you play? What amazing non-trinity combat system it must have.
Which MMO is it?
Prove it then. Don't be all talk.
Put your money where your mouth is.
Show me something of a current action MMO where there is a community.
Let's see those examples then.
Show me a trading post like in EQ:
show me a mass group buff where the community gathers:
show me a 100 man PoP raid:
*crickets*
The blunt fact is that action MMO don't have good communities.
They are watered down MMO, often barely MMO.
They have no interdependence amongst classes, and therefore you don't depend on others and have no reason to bond.
People are so busy mashing buttons they barely have time to say hi to one another.
You have easymode solo mode in those MMO and the lack of community is a common complaint.
Everyone knows it, even the people playing them.
dude, youre just ranting by now
If your point is that GW2 raids are zerg raids where people spam attacks without any strategy or cooperation. I agree with you.
So if someone posts screenshots of a mass of characters crowding around in game will you be convinced that good communities also exist in the mmos which you have broadly lumped together as all Korean/Asian games and games with action combat?
This must have been in Guild Wars 2, and I dread to think this is the future of MMO. There might be some ambiguity about what is considered /zerging/ but your example would fit that bill.
I have to agree with Kiyoris. When we did Sendaii in Everquest, we weren't running back and forth, spamming abilitiy after ability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGZ6XvbzCLA
I agree, by anything being a zerg (your claim) EQ was just one big zerg.
You mean just like EQ?
You see how not intelligent you sound.
I've played several FPSes with small but close-knit communities. Players know one another, greet one another when they come online and chat while they're dead etc. - even when they're not in the same clan or in a clan at all.
You play a lot of these competitive non-MMORPGs like I do, and you notice the people around you. You'll learn the players in your ladder/league. You learn their habits and their tendencies. You might exchange a few words like: "I saw your match against such and such. What a crazy ending.", for example. Or maybe you have something to bitch about with the latest patch. And that's how it starts.
Whenever someone complains that "the community is gone" or that nobody socializes anymore, I can't help but feel that these people aren't really trying. Such things are not exclusive to MMORPGs, trinity combat or forced grouping. I've made several long lasting friendships by playing games that have/are none of those things.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
But it's just mindless dps and doding during which you can't talk! As opposed to tank spank and whackamole during which you CAN talk because it's that mindless. Yes you designate someone to tank in a certain position, someone to stand behind the target, and someone to sit somewhere safely to heal people. So complex. Oh my god. The mental strain.
Getting tired of this hag's shrieking, if I wanted to listen to some old broken record I'd phone my mother.
If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.
Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
There is no such thing as "too much DPS".
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
The Original Holy Trinity was Tank, Heals and Control (EQ1) (everyone dpsed even clerics in (unless in complete heal rotation) PoP)
World of Warcraft adjusted it to Tank Heals DPS
Frankly if we went back to Tank, Heals and Control it will bring back elements to the game that frankly make the game challenging. Crowd Control via Debuffs or mezzes or sheeping or whatever made the games fun and exciting.
Vanguard used a Tank Class Dread Knights longer it was engaged on a boss the less effective the bosses hits were on the Tank, Shamans slowed and debuffed mobs to where their hits were manageable.
So yes the holy trinity is the best form in my mind but the third item (DPS) could be changed.
Artorus Giltanus - Ranger EQ1 Retired
Arturien - 90 Deathknight WoW
There were fail mechanics in EQ if you did too much DPS.
In tacvi for example there were 4 mobs, the only way to kill them, was by killing them all 4 in the exactly same manner.
So when mob A was at 56% health, mob B, C and D had to be too.
You split your raid of 54 in 4 and you contiously talked to each other and you had health leaders coordinating mob health acrross teams.
If some idiot in your raid pushed the wrong ability, or attacked when he shouldn't have, your raid would wipe.
We didn't zerg stuff like MMO do now.
Uhm, LDON introduced instancing, not Gates of Discord.
You're off by only a few years...
Before Gates of Discord, many mobs were "tank 'n spank", or "sandbags". This is true. They had AE and some other mechnanics, but they didn't have massive amounts of ads or special scripts.
However, this was at the advent of large scale raiding, at that time, most people had never heard of MMO, let alone played them, let alone participated in a 100 man raid.
After PoP however (and post PoP is the largest majority of the game by far), the raids were the most complex and the hardest raids I have ever been involved in in an MMO.
Fail in EQ, meant fail, it wiped 54 people, it cost a lot of time, it cost a lot of XP, it was a nailbiting and thrilling experience so many times.
That's something I have never felt in today's MMO.
Many of today's MMO feel like playing street fighter and just spamming attacks.
If we'd abolish taunts and hard CC (long lasting mez, sleep etc.) we'd have some challenge.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Bazinga!
The CC was actually required for Vanilla, BC, and parts of Cata. Kind of funny how over the years they spread around the CC love some more, giving more abilities to more classes, but also made it just about completely unnecessary by super-inflating damage, tank survivability, and healing.
Winning Game Design!