As far as map size, I remember while playing SWG, I decided to find out how big the planets are. They were huge and it took me a long time to find the edge but eventually I did (I only did it once and I forget which planet). Had they been true planets (sphere shaped), I would have ended up where I started (or close if I did a straight line) eventually. Nope, I remember seeing the edge. I wasn't disappointed as I figured that the world was a plane vice a sphere but it would have been cool as hell if it surprised me and was a sphere.
Originally posted by DullahanAs a whole in EQ, people were not worried about how long things took. Every day I went different places and did different things. Sometimes I pvped over a dungeon, sometimes I farmed in one zone or another. I never looked at it as a painful grind and never heard anyone complain that it was such.Point is, there were many ways to enjoy those early games and at least in EQ, none of them felt like a grind regardless of how long it took to accomplish certain things. There was simply too much variation from day to day.
You mean you could kill stuff over here or kill stuff over there? Yeah so much variety....
Theoretically that is still a greater choice then what you get in MMOs now. Now you jump into the game and it tells you to go here and do this or kill that. That isn't really a choice. The only real choice I can think of is weather or not you want to solo quest, group, or PvP. Those choices were available in old MMOs, but you also had to make the decision of where to go want what to try and kill. You could try to kill the guards of a city if you wanted to. You might be Kill on Sight in another place because of your race or beliefs. Killing certain NPCs might change your faction with a certain people in the game. I'm not saying older games were better in everything, but they did offer more choice IMO. We haven't even talked about racial differences that actually matter and the ability in some games to distribute stats yourself instead of automatically having them assigned. Then there were certain skills like tracking that don't exist anymore. You could also search for NPCs with quests.
I have a ton of choices in the MMO I am playing now. Most of them don't involve killing things, just like my old MMO.
I have been desperately looking for a game that offers more than just killing and kill quests. Would you mind telling me which game it is you play? I'd love to give it a try.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a few statements that I believe would be the ultimate rule sets in an MMO regarding PvP.
1) Referring to SWG, a 2 faction game, a player can go from "covert" to "overt" at anytime via speaking to an NPC (War Recruiter?) at any time. The "overt" player can be attacked at any time regardless of where he is. It should take about 10-15 minutes to turn it off and revert to an "covert" status. While "covert", you can PvE forever and craft and RP and etc... This would work for any amount of warring factions. Also, if a "covert" player assists an "overt" player (heals him or whatever) that player automatically becomes "overt" for said 10-15 minutes.
2) Referring to UO, Faction Wars. One could think of this as Guild vs Guild or on a larger scale a built in faction. A built in faction is something like "The Legion of Rusty Blades" or "The Legion of Shallow Waters". One goes to a NPC recruiter for one of these guilds (maybe proves themselves via some quests or whatever) and then becomes a member. If these 2 legions go to war against each other well, you're in it everywhere you go. Guild vs Guild is obvious.
3) Rich lands for Natural Resources. A full open PvP zone where gathering materials takes much less time and the chance of getting rare crafting materials is increased greatly. Perfect reason for a crafter to get his warrior buddies to escort him into the land of doom.
Cool thing is if the game is good enough, PvE players will enjoy it and also see the wars going on around them and may want to participate from time to time.
Should it be "full loot" or maybe "partial loot" (any 1 or 2 items etc...) I'm on the fence. Whatever would work best.
Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp No I don't remember any of that. I had a different experience.
Same here, as I played almost every MMO except EQ. What the OP describes is the reason I only spent a week in EQ. Repetitive grind... bleh.
Probably why the OP also made the comment about today's younger generations being ADD, thus needing the instant gratification of current MMO's. You lose interest because you can't maintain focus. There was nothing wrong with grinding in vanilla EQ. In fact, there was nothing wrong with vanilla EQ period. When you earned a level in EQ, it was satisfying every "DING!"
Now, getting to max level barely even phases people. Makes me wonder why developers scratch their heads trying to figure out why they can't make money. Well, maybe cause you create easy content that can be blitzed through in a week. Subscription based MMO's are failing now because you've changed the games. What took months or years back in the day, can now be done in a week or less. Seriously, it's not that hard to figure out and if you don't stop feeding the content locust's agenda, you'll never get anywhere near profitable with an MMO.
Me not wantng to bang my head against the wall every day for few hours doesnt make me ADD, unable to keep focus.
The "real" MMO failed when much more enjoyable alternative appeared and everyone jumped ship from "real" MMO.
Yeah, farming same pixies for 6 weeks few hours a day. Those were the days. not
Thank you, Malabooga. I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that was a strange leap of logic.
Rhoklaw, your post seems to indicate you really haven't played anything outside of linear level grinds, so I'll write off your comment to just a lack of experience. While EQers were stalwartly braving the monotony of grinding to prove their manhood in a 'true' MMO. The rest of us were doing all sorts of 'instant gratification' things because of our 'younger generation ADD' (oh, those darn instant gratification kids spoiling MMOs back then!):
- building and maintaining player-run venues like
taverns
gambling halls
player cities
RP environments
fight arenas
mage towers and other SIG venues
- roleplaying, fighting and socializing in the above player-run venues
- organizing monthly meetings of the Monarchs (guild leaders) of our servers to address community issues and concerns
- organizing/joining content teams (official or player-run) to create quests, story arcs and plot characters based on official lore
- engaging in activities that require little or even zero combat such as being a dedicated crafter, fisherman, treasure hunter, baker, veterinarian, or even a rogue that does rogue things other than just backstab and hide.
So, yes, we had a different experience. For some reason the diehard EQers seem to refuse to accept that not only was there more to early MMOs than just EQ, it was a pretty diverse set of experiences.
Look, you like EQ and that's just fine. But when someone says they didn't care for it, it's a little arrogant - if not completely rude and uncalled for - to tell them that they didn't like EQ because they can't maintain focus or, worse, that if they didn't like grinding in EQ then it must be because they have a psychological disorder.
Actually, I'm willing to bet I've played more MMO's than most people on this website. Is that a boast or is it fact? How many games I've played isn't what the discussion is about though. It's about current MMO's lack of difficulty. It's about content locusts and FPS instant gratification kids getting their way for the past 10 years. Despite what most would expect or believe, there are in fact a lot of old time MMO veterans who miss games like vanilla EQ, SWG, AC and DAoC. Most of which are in MY opinion leagues ahead of some of the current MMO's on the market. In fact, in the past 10 years, LOTRO, ArcheAge and ESO are about the only MMO's I'd consider an actual improvement to the genre since then. Except ArcheAge is being managed by a bunch of nitwits so that diamond fell through the cracks. LOTRO was one of the first subscription based games to take on the hybrid B2P model and did so with amazing success.
As for ESO, you can wear your tinfoil hat if you like, but I'm pretty sure this website has dictated it as the #1 MMO of the past year. Is it exactly what most of us old time vets are looking for? Not 100% but definitely better than most games.
So no, this discussion has nothing to do with game features. It has to do with game difficulty. So your bullet point breakdown of you and your guilds successes was rather nice and all but completely missed the point.
Why you went on that ePeen tirade about the amount of MMOs you've played is beyond me, but good for you. o7
After that, you change the goal posts to some present day vs old school MMO thing that had nothing to do with the discussion which was that HFS, Malabooga and I had a different gaming experience back then.
"As for ESO, you can wear your tinfoil hat if you like..." <--- I'm not sure what stance you think I took on ESO or why you feel so compelled to throw around insults, but last I checked, ESO wasn't around back then so that comment is an odd one no matter how you look at it. It's just a bit humorous that you say we can't focus and that we have ADD, but three posts into a discussion and you're miles off topic on three different tangents in one single reply.
To get back on track...
You said people didn't like the grind because they either couldn't focus or they had mental problems.
We pointed out that we didn't like to grind mobs because we were doing other things in game that we found more fun, not for the reasons you mentioned. The list was to give you some examples.
Now, it would be great to get a response from you on that topic. However, if you're going to get insulted over perceived slights to your gaming prowess or lash out at us then please don't waste our time and refrain from replying.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Well eq didn't have any building so that takes out 6 things on the list. It also didn't have veterinarian do that takes out another. Are you sure you played eq?
- building and maintaining player-run venues like
taverns
gambling halls
player cities
RP environments
fight arenas
mage towers and other SIG venues
- roleplaying, fighting and socializing in the above player-run venues
- organizing monthly meetings of the Monarchs (guild leaders) of our servers to address community issues and concerns
- organizing/joining content teams (official or player-run) to create quests, story arcs and plot characters based on official lore
- engaging in activities that require little or even zero combat such as being a dedicated crafter, fisherman, treasure hunter, baker, veterinarian, or even a rogue that does rogue things other than just backstab and hide.
Each of the main points were a thing in EQ, especially on RP servers. You didn't build things but they certainly utilized the world to engage in those activities.
And lets be honest shall we, today were only further away from those activities than we were in the days of EQ and SWG.
Ultimately, that wasn't even the point of this thread but just another attempt to grasp at straws because the OP made a good point and there is no refuting it, no matter how many times you pretend that players of older games were discontent about "grinding." The content was still more meaningful to those of us who played those games than anything today. By a landslide vote. The fact that I couldn't just go anywhere and do anything and there was no golden path is proof enough. Every npc had to be considered, every decision you would be held accountable to due to factions and deities. People are currently going nuts for stuff in Pillars of Eternity for many of these same reasons we enjoyed EverQuest, and yet here are a bunch of late comers talking about old games using the same tired rhetoric without a clue of how things really were.
The problem that you and a few others here have is that you get defensive to the point of actually hostile if you perceive a slight to EQ.
No one is trying to take away how meaningful EQ was for you. We said our experience was different and we found other things more fun. In other MMOs, those activites were the norm, not the exception. On the non-combat classes, I guess I'm mistaken. I don't remember being able to level up in EQ without fighting. If that was there, I never could find it.
Anyway, we didn't say your opinion was wrong. We didn't say you didn't have, shouldn't have or couldn't have had fun grinding mobs. But when you and certain others read an opinion different from yours about things like... ohh.... let's see....
"What made an MMO fun was the endless progression."
"Grind? That's all mmorpgs used to be. We loved them."
you get defensive and hostile. You really can't see how that doesn't help?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Well eq didn't have any building so that takes out 6 things on the list. It also didn't have veterinarian do that takes out another. Are you sure you played eq?
- building and maintaining player-run venues like
taverns
gambling halls
player cities
RP environments
fight arenas
mage towers and other SIG venues
- roleplaying, fighting and socializing in the above player-run venues
- organizing monthly meetings of the Monarchs (guild leaders) of our servers to address community issues and concerns
- organizing/joining content teams (official or player-run) to create quests, story arcs and plot characters based on official lore
- engaging in activities that require little or even zero combat such as being a dedicated crafter, fisherman, treasure hunter, baker, veterinarian, or even a rogue that does rogue things other than just backstab and hide.
Each of the main points were a thing in EQ, especially on RP servers. You didn't build things but they certainly utilized the world to engage in those activities.
And lets be honest shall we, today were only further away from those activities than we were in the days of EQ and SWG.
Ultimately, that wasn't even the point of this thread but just another attempt to grasp at straws because the OP made a good point and there is no refuting it, no matter how many times you pretend that players of older games were discontent about "grinding." The content was still more meaningful to those of us who played those games than anything today. By a landslide vote. The fact that I couldn't just go anywhere and do anything and there was no golden path is proof enough. Every npc had to be considered, every decision you would be held accountable to due to factions and deities. People are currently going nuts for stuff in Pillars of Eternity for many of these same reasons we enjoyed EverQuest, and yet here are a bunch of late comers talking about old games using the same tired rhetoric without a clue of how things really were.
Dont use EQ and SWG in same sentence because those 2 games were so different, one was sandbox, the other themepark. With all the glaring differences between the two.
YOu can do all those things you did in EQ in todays games.
And dont try to use PoE as some crutch, theres nothing in common in relation of inifinity/PoE and EQ/modern.
Bottom line is, there's a big audience that would love an old school MMORPG that incorporated slaying monsters as the core mechanic for progressing your character.
There's about 150 MMO games that are fighting over the WoW audience, which happens to be huge, and unfortunately, WoW holds about 90% of that audience and the other 149 games have about 10% of it.
Our (MMORPG gamers) frustration is that our developers and publishers all saw how big the WoW audience was, realized how similar WoW was to the games they were producing, and decided to try to copy and emulate WoW. At this point, the MMORPG audience has been completely abandoned in a failed effort to get 1% of the WoW audience.
All of these games fighting over p2p, f2p, b2p ETC.... WoW is p2p, they don't ever talk about that, all these new payment schemes are pointed at trying to get that 1 more % of the WoW audience that they're never going to have.
Please will a dev PLEASE say F the WoW audience for once and look at the huge amount of us on this forum (not the detractors here obviously, there will be plenty more WoW clones in the pipeline for you) that want to play a good old fashioned MMO monster slaying RPG.
Bottom line is, there's a big audience that would love an old school MMORPG that incorporated slaying monsters as the core mechanic for progressing your character.
There's about 150 MMO games that are fighting over the WoW audience, which happens to be huge, and unfortunately, WoW holds about 90% of that audience and the other 149 games have about 10% of it.
Our (MMORPG gamers) frustration is that our developers and publishers all saw how big the WoW audience was, realized how similar WoW was to the games they were producing, and decided to try to copy and emulate WoW. At this point, the MMORPG audience has been completely abandoned in a failed effort to get 1% of the WoW audience.
All of these games fighting over p2p, f2p, b2p ETC.... WoW is p2p, they don't ever talk about that, all these new payment schemes are pointed at trying to get that 1 more % of the WoW audience that they're never going to have.
Please will a dev PLEASE say F the WoW audience for once and look at the huge amount of us on this forum (not the detractors here obviously, there will be plenty more WoW clones in the pipeline for you) that want to play a good old fashioned MMO monster slaying RPG.
It's been 12 YEARS since one came out
500 peope total is not "big audience" or "huge amount"
This forum has nearly 3 million members. Just because you are entertained by a different type of game doesn't mean the other 7 billion people in the world see it just like you.
Pretty much every 'Genre' leading game has an absolutely massive audience:
Call of Duty - Shooter
Clash of Clans - Wait & Build
World of Warcraft - Multiplayer Quest Tour
Mass Effect / Dragon Age - Console RPG
Skyrim - PC RPG
Starcraft - RTS
Unforunately, there's no game that has been introduced to the AAA MMORPG slot in 12 years.
This forum has nearly 3 million members. Just because you are entertained by a different type of game doesn't mean the other 7 billion people in the world see it just like you.
Pretty much every 'Genre' leading game has an absolutely massive audience:
Call of Duty - Shooter
Clash of Clans - Wait & Build
World of Warcraft - Multiplayer Quest Tour
Mass Effect / Dragon Age - Console RPG
Skyrim - PC RPG
Starcraft - RTS
Unforunately, there's no game that has been introduced to the AAA MMORPG slot in 12 years.
Ah, sorry, april 1st, you got me there for a moment.
Indeed OP.. When I first started playing EQ back in 99, it was never a clock watching game in a hurry to max level.. But then I guess it all depends on the individual and their willingness to enjoy the journey, instead of focusing on the destination.. You know the common joke humor about kids, "Are we there yet? Are we their yet?".. That is actually how I think many of the MMO players are today.. I never understood why people play games in a hurry... We call those the "go go go" players.. They have no tolerance for pauses or a slower pace.. That always drove me nuts in WoW LFD grind.. I would say that 50% of everyone I had randomly played with hated anything less then 110% speed.. It was almost viewed as a crime to take more then 15 minutes to complete a heroic dungeon.. LOL
SWG never felt like a grind, I just wish it wasn't so bug ridden.. Damn them!!!.. The perfect IP in which to create a beautiful "sandpark" game, and SOE blew it.. Bioware didn't do any better.. Damn them too!!.. I doubt we'll see another game in where the content is created to last a year and longer.. The bulk of the gamers today go threw games like a hot knife through butter.. I just see any company on the horizon that employ the right people to pull it off.. Oh well.. I guess I"ll just stay with my f2p games, consoles and my phone apps..
Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp No I don't remember any of that. I had a different experience.
Same here, as I played almost every MMO except EQ. What the OP describes is the reason I only spent a week in EQ. Repetitive grind... bleh.
Probably why the OP also made the comment about today's younger generations being ADD, thus needing the instant gratification of current MMO's. You lose interest because you can't maintain focus. There was nothing wrong with grinding in vanilla EQ. In fact, there was nothing wrong with vanilla EQ period. When you earned a level in EQ, it was satisfying every "DING!"
Now, getting to max level barely even phases people. Makes me wonder why developers scratch their heads trying to figure out why they can't make money. Well, maybe cause you create easy content that can be blitzed through in a week. Subscription based MMO's are failing now because you've changed the games. What took months or years back in the day, can now be done in a week or less. Seriously, it's not that hard to figure out and if you don't stop feeding the content locust's agenda, you'll never get anywhere near profitable with an MMO.
Hahaha, the DING!....it used to mean something. Players even unknown players would congratulate you because they knew how much it took to get that next level. Sometimes catch myself still congratulating players when I see the made a new level. Often with no response back from that player. And I just think yeah he/she might "ding" in a few minutes again what's the use to congrat him/her on it.
But I didn't witness the "DING" much in EQ because my true love for this genre started with Star Wars Galaxies though did start with M59 and UO. EQ for some reason never clicked with me but did try the game allot due to other "online friends" playing at the time.
But I still play like I alway's played, this does mean I might not get invited into groups early on. Because due to experiance I've met so many groups that had pulled their character template from the net while I alway's love to experiment with my character till I personaly reach a satisfiyng state wich is often my time played between level 0 till 10 or 20. But eventually my character(s) turn out to be a good build I just take longer to achieve that. Because I like to learn from playing the game and not look up what's the best class/skilltree or what ever. I takes away my reason for playing games. But do know most will when offerd take the path of the least resistance and do not value actually creating something for themselfs, instead start with what's best. And I understand for many that's their fun. But the many don't understand OP's , mine or other "veteran players" fun. Not speaking for all vet players but merly a few I know or agree with. Because there are plenty of "vet players" that love what the genre is today in all it's aspects and wouldn't go back to what most consider "useless time-sinks"
Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp No I don't remember any of that. I had a different experience.
Same here, as I played almost every MMO except EQ. What the OP describes is the reason I only spent a week in EQ. Repetitive grind... bleh.
Probably why the OP also made the comment about today's younger generations being ADD, thus needing the instant gratification of current MMO's. You lose interest because you can't maintain focus. There was nothing wrong with grinding in vanilla EQ. In fact, there was nothing wrong with vanilla EQ period. When you earned a level in EQ, it was satisfying every "DING!"
Now, getting to max level barely even phases people. Makes me wonder why developers scratch their heads trying to figure out why they can't make money. Well, maybe cause you create easy content that can be blitzed through in a week. Subscription based MMO's are failing now because you've changed the games. What took months or years back in the day, can now be done in a week or less. Seriously, it's not that hard to figure out and if you don't stop feeding the content locust's agenda, you'll never get anywhere near profitable with an MMO.
Me not wantng to bang my head against the wall every day for few hours doesnt make me ADD, unable to keep focus.
The "real" MMO failed when much more enjoyable alternative appeared and everyone jumped ship from "real" MMO.
Yeah, farming same pixies for 6 weeks few hours a day. Those were the days. not
Thank you, Malabooga. I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that was a strange leap of logic.
Rhoklaw, your post seems to indicate you really haven't played anything outside of linear level grinds, so I'll write off your comment to just a lack of experience. While EQers were stalwartly braving the monotony of grinding to prove their manhood in a 'true' MMO. The rest of us were doing all sorts of 'instant gratification' things because of our 'younger generation ADD' (oh, those darn instant gratification kids spoiling MMOs back then!):
- building and maintaining player-run venues like
taverns
gambling halls
player cities
RP environments
fight arenas
mage towers and other SIG venues
- roleplaying, fighting and socializing in the above player-run venues
- organizing monthly meetings of the Monarchs (guild leaders) of our servers to address community issues and concerns
- organizing/joining content teams (official or player-run) to create quests, story arcs and plot characters based on official lore
- engaging in activities that require little or even zero combat such as being a dedicated crafter, fisherman, treasure hunter, baker, veterinarian, or even a rogue that does rogue things other than just backstab and hide.
So, yes, we had a different experience. For some reason the diehard EQers seem to refuse to accept that not only was there more to early MMOs than just EQ, it was a pretty diverse set of experiences.
Look, you like EQ and that's just fine. But when someone says they didn't care for it, it's a little arrogant - if not completely rude and uncalled for - to tell them that they didn't like EQ because they can't maintain focus or, worse, that if they didn't like grinding in EQ then it must be because they have a psychological disorder.
Actually, I'm willing to bet I've played more MMO's than most people on this website. Is that a boast or is it fact? How many games I've played isn't what the discussion is about though. It's about current MMO's lack of difficulty. It's about content locusts and FPS instant gratification kids getting their way for the past 10 years. Despite what most would expect or believe, there are in fact a lot of old time MMO veterans who miss games like vanilla EQ, SWG, AC and DAoC. Most of which are in MY opinion leagues ahead of some of the current MMO's on the market. In fact, in the past 10 years, LOTRO, ArcheAge and ESO are about the only MMO's I'd consider an actual improvement to the genre since then. Except ArcheAge is being managed by a bunch of nitwits so that diamond fell through the cracks. LOTRO was one of the first subscription based games to take on the hybrid B2P model and did so with amazing success.
As for ESO, you can wear your tinfoil hat if you like, but I'm pretty sure this website has dictated it as the #1 MMO of the past year. Is it exactly what most of us old time vets are looking for? Not 100% but definitely better than most games.
So no, this discussion has nothing to do with game features. It has to do with game difficulty. So your bullet point breakdown of you and your guilds successes was rather nice and all but completely missed the point.
Why you went on that ePeen tirade about the amount of MMOs you've played is beyond me, but good for you. o7
After that, you change the goal posts to some present day vs old school MMO thing that had nothing to do with the discussion which was that HFS, Malabooga and I had a different gaming experience back then.
"As for ESO, you can wear your tinfoil hat if you like..." <--- I'm not sure what stance you think I took on ESO or why you feel so compelled to throw around insults, but last I checked, ESO wasn't around back then so that comment is an odd one no matter how you look at it. It's just a bit humorous that you say we can't focus and that we have ADD, but three posts into a discussion and you're miles off topic on three different tangents in one single reply.
To get back on track...
You said people didn't like the grind because they either couldn't focus or they had mental problems.
We pointed out that we didn't like to grind mobs because we were doing other things in game that we found more fun, not for the reasons you mentioned. The list was to give you some examples.
Now, it would be great to get a response from you on that topic. However, if you're going to get insulted over perceived slights to your gaming prowess or lash out at us then please don't waste our time and refrain from replying.
I brought up my gaming history because of the comment you made in your prior post that I only played linear level grinds. So, that explains that apparent off topic remark.
How does one make any relevant statement about games of the past without comparing them to games of the present? I was trying to point out that some present day games that released recently were bringing back at least some of the old school feel. ArcheAge with it's ridiculous amount of features compared to SWG and ESO with it's Cyrodiil equivalent to that of DAoC's Frontiers. So while some aspects of classic games are making their way back. It's still nothing close to what it was, which makes no sense to me. How did we lose complexity and challenge in exchange for fast paced leveling and instant gratification. So, that explains that apparent off topic remark.
My tinfoil hat comment was directed at the majority of people still complaining about a game they probably haven't even touched since launch. While a majority of the stuff they complained about was legitimate, there are those who complained about the veteran level grind. Which to me is a prime example of the impatient syndrome present with todays FPS instant gratification kids. So, in my opinion, ESO is the #1 MMO on the market, much like this website has shown. Probably due to deep lore, the grind, food and drink that matters and Cyrodiil. All things that made games of old like EQ and DAoC popular. So, that explains that apparent off topic remark.
Grind isn't a huge deal to me. I've played MMO's since 1996. I have patience and I enjoy the admiration of my achievements. Something you don't see in todays MMO's. This doesn't mean a game can only have grind and that's it. Just like I posted about ArcheAge having a crap ton of features such as farming, building neighborhoods and badass naval simulation. Reminded me of what SWG brought to the table years ago. Now we have games like The Repopulation and Crowfall bringing back the varied quality of resources too. EQ wasn't just about grind. It was about everything from actual night time, meditating to recover mana, racial language barriers, death that actual meant something and socializing. So, that explains that apparent off topic remark.
If you have any other issues with my posts, please feel free to let me know.
Nah. I'm good. We didn't say there weren't other things to EQ or that the other things in EQ weren't fun. I mean, I even specifically stated that the other things were present and fun when I said "... we didn't like to grind mobs because we were doing other things in game that we found more fun" but evidently if there's ANY aspect of EQ a person states they don't like, you get defensive and off topic. You're still arguing against points/stances that no one has made, so I guess we're done here. Thanks for the colors, though!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp No I don't remember any of that. I had a different experience.
Same here, as I played almost every MMO except EQ. What the OP describes is the reason I only spent a week in EQ. Repetitive grind... bleh.
Probably why the OP also made the comment about today's younger generations being ADD, thus needing the instant gratification of current MMO's. You lose interest because you can't maintain focus. There was nothing wrong with grinding in vanilla EQ. In fact, there was nothing wrong with vanilla EQ period. When you earned a level in EQ, it was satisfying every "DING!"
Now, getting to max level barely even phases people. Makes me wonder why developers scratch their heads trying to figure out why they can't make money. Well, maybe cause you create easy content that can be blitzed through in a week. Subscription based MMO's are failing now because you've changed the games. What took months or years back in the day, can now be done in a week or less. Seriously, it's not that hard to figure out and if you don't stop feeding the content locust's agenda, you'll never get anywhere near profitable with an MMO.
Hahaha, the DING!....it used to mean something. Players even unknown players would congratulate you because they knew how much it took to get that next level. Sometimes catch myself still congratulating players when I see the made a new level. Often with no response back from that player. And I just think yeah he/she might "ding" in a few minutes again what's the use to congrat him/her on it.
But I didn't witness the "DING" much in EQ because my true love for this genre started with Star Wars Galaxies though did start with M59 and UO. EQ for some reason never clicked with me but did try the game allot due to other "online friends" playing at the time.
But I still play like I alway's played, this does mean I might not get invited into groups early on. Because due to experiance I've met so many groups that had pulled their character template from the net while I alway's love to experiment with my character till I personaly reach a satisfiyng state wich is often my time played between level 0 till 10 or 20. But eventually my character(s) turn out to be a good build I just take longer to achieve that. Because I like to learn from playing the game and not look up what's the best class/skilltree or what ever. I takes away my reason for playing games. But do know most will when offerd take the path of the least resistance and do not value actually creating something for themselfs, instead start with what's best. And I understand for many that's their fun. But the many don't understand OP's , mine or other "veteran players" fun. Not speaking for all vet players but merly a few I know or agree with. Because there are plenty of "vet players" that love what the genre is today in all it's aspects and wouldn't go back to what most consider "useless time-sinks"
EQ had hell levels. There was also experience penalties for playing certain races like in D&D. The hell levels generally took twice as long or more then a normal level. Even the normal levels were really long. This was all in Vanilla when no one was max level and there wasn't much power leveling with high level buffs. The equipment wasn't very good. Generally you were hitting for less damage then the mob unless you were a caster.
i dont remember when mmos seemed to be going on forever. That being said, i do remember when mmos seemed to take forever, not because of the amount of content, but because of how boring it was to level up by mindlessly killing poor mobs over and over and over and over without reason. That was a terrible grind i would not welcome today. Nowadays devs replace "quests" with boring and grindy tasks and chores that have no reason to exist either, and thats how we level up now.
There needs to be a way to make leveling entertaining from lvl 1 to max. Otherwise, PLEASE get rid of levels. I love leveling with quests when the are directly attached to the lore and the storyline of the game, not with some lazy npc that cant do his job himself. Make questing matter or remove the levels.
i dont remember when mmos seemed to be going on forever. That being said, i do remember when mmos seemed to take forever, not because of the amount of content, but because of how boring it was to level up by mindlessly killing poor mobs over and over and over and over without reason. That was a terrible grind i would not welcome today. Nowadays devs replace "quests" with boring and grindy tasks and chores that have no reason to exist either, and thats how we level up now.
There needs to be a way to make leveling entertaining from lvl 1 to max. Otherwise, PLEASE get rid of levels. I love leveling with quests when the are directly attached to the lore and the storyline of the game, not with some lazy npc that cant do his job himself. Make questing matter or remove the levels.
This is what I mean. Every mmo that has come out in the past 12 years is aimed at getting people like YOU to play the game.
I don't think there's anything wrong with you, or even what you want. I just wish that for once a single developer of a single game somewhere would not give a rats ass about you. Make a game for us, the people that don't want a 'max' . The fact that you can even achieve some sort of max defeats the entire concept of a MMORPG.
The point is endless and constant development, not a goal oriented series of checkboxes to finish. We want characters that we can forever nuture and build, maybe only in slow and small ways, but we can put a little progress in each day and not feel like we're in some drag race to finish checking all the boxes like the last guy did.
i dont remember when mmos seemed to be going on forever. That being said, i do remember when mmos seemed to take forever, not because of the amount of content, but because of how boring it was to level up by mindlessly killing poor mobs over and over and over and over without reason. That was a terrible grind i would not welcome today. Nowadays devs replace "quests" with boring and grindy tasks and chores that have no reason to exist either, and thats how we level up now.
There needs to be a way to make leveling entertaining from lvl 1 to max. Otherwise, PLEASE get rid of levels. I love leveling with quests when the are directly attached to the lore and the storyline of the game, not with some lazy npc that cant do his job himself. Make questing matter or remove the levels.
This is what I mean. Every mmo that has come out in the past 12 years is aimed at getting people like YOU to play the game.
I don't think there's anything wrong with you, or even what you want. I just wish that for once a single developer of a single game somewhere would not give a rats ass about you. Make a game for us, the people that don't want a 'max' . The fact that you can even achieve some sort of max defeats the entire concept of a MMORPG.
The point is endless and constant development, not a goal oriented series of checkboxes to finish. We want characters that we can forever nuture and build, maybe only in slow and small ways, but we can put a little progress in each day and not feel like we're in some drag race to finish checking all the boxes like the last guy did.
i do not want to hit "max". I never play end game. As soon as i hit max level in a game i move on. Yes i want an endless experience, but if the game insists in having a level/progression cap then i want it to be achieved through the story of the game, not mindless killing or chore grind for exp. So, no.... the majority of mmorpgs made in the last decade are not for me or people like me. However, unless they find a way to make an "endless" mmorpg experience without having to rely on the massive mindless grind as a time filler, then i dont find it entertaining. And so far the thats the only way to keep an mmo going endlessly without the devs going crazy with content creation. Grinding as a time filler is not fun and is not good game design.
MMOs have evolved. Back in the day, the only viable indicator for character progression was a number above your characters head.
Today, MMOs offer many more ways to give players a sense of achievement. And they cater to all playstyles so you can go for easily attainable goals or the ones that take months
Everquest 1 when pretty much nothing was handed to you. Took me a month slaughtering guards in Oggok in a party to work my way through the hell level of Level 40. Shortly after I dinged 41 we got trained and I was back at 75% in to L40. Nearly made me cry.
- No '?' showing quest givers, you had to go and chat with everyone. Level up? New Patch? Go talk to everyone AGAIN!
- Spent entire days just working some skill, because using it was the only way to level. Chatting back and forth on boats that took a half hour to cross the ocean to learn and perfect those other languages.
- Ah the thrills! L14 wandering a new zone when the L30 Gryphon flies up behind you and one shots you. Or you find that your Rusty Sword is useless against that Wisp or Ghoul. When games had an actual Learning Curve.
- The GM events where they took out their frustrations on the players. L30 undead in the L10 zone of Qeynos hills. A L60 Dragon in the L5 newbie zone. Ah, Paranoia, my old friend. Spawned the mantra "If it moves, Kill it! If it doesn't move, Kill it QUICK! It is being sneaky!"
- When the words "Train to Zone!" sparked unreasoning terror of your fellow players. Almost as bad as when the Cleric calls "OOM" as the pulling Ranger calls "Incoming a A Guk Ghoul Knight, and boy is it pissed!"
The fact that you can even achieve some sort of max defeats the entire concept of a MMORPG.
Well not the entire concept. Most players would say grouping is a key bit of MMORPGs, and by having a cap on progression you limit the amount of fragmentation to the community. Instead of players being scattered from level 100 to infinity, everyone is level 100 and only divided into maybe 3-5 gear tiers, which keeps everyone much more closely squished together in capability, which enables more players to group together.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The fact that you can even achieve some sort of max defeats the entire concept of a MMORPG.
Well not the entire concept. Most players would say grouping is a key bit of MMORPGs, and by having a cap on progression you limit the amount of fragmentation to the community. Instead of players being scattered from level 100 to infinity, everyone is level 100 and only divided into maybe 3-5 gear tiers, which keeps everyone much more closely squished together in capability, which enables more players to group together.
Isn't it Mabinogi that doesn't have an level cap? People running around at like level 10,000. I can't remember lol
And there's plenty of games out there tailored just for you, you're just here again, looking for another one to gobble up. I want a game that can't be gobbled. I want a game to take that true MMORPG slot.
People have come up with these pejorative words like "grind" "chore" "mindless". Some of us consider farming monsters in search of extremely rare loot with a slow level progression relaxing and enjoyable. We don't want an "action packed adventure" we want a slow relaxing game to go develop our character a little bit further on. Spending an hour killing goblins that have a rare chance to drop this blue sword we want really bad... it relaxes us.
Maybe you hate it, so there's this giant list of wow clone mmo wanna be quest grinders out there to pick from. There's even games that have approached progression from every new conceivable way, with every new way of funding themselves.
None of it matters, There's this giant unserved market... The "ORIGINAL" runescape, Lineage, everquest, UO, SWG, ETC players... Will someone PLEASE make a game for us again. Not everyone is going to play it, like I'm never in my life going to play call of duty, but there's a TON of people starving for one of these games.
And there's plenty of games out there tailored just for you, you're just here again, looking for another one to gobble up. I want a game that can't be gobbled. I want a game to take that true MMORPG slot.
People have come up with these pejorative words like "grind" "chore" "mindless". Some of us consider farming monsters in search of extremely rare loot with a slow level progression relaxing and enjoyable. We don't want an "action packed adventure" we want a slow relaxing game to go develop our character a little bit further on. Spending an hour killing goblins that have a rare chance to drop this blue sword we want really bad... it relaxes us.
Maybe you hate it, so there's this giant list of wow clone mmo wanna be quest grinders out there to pick from. There's even games that have approached progression from every new conceivable way, with every new way of funding themselves.
None of it matters, There's this giant unserved market... The "ORIGINAL" runescape, Lineage, everquest, UO, SWG, ETC players... Will someone PLEASE make a game for us again. Not everyone is going to play it, like I'm never in my life going to play call of duty, but there's a TON of people starving for one of these games.
That isn't one market that's a bunch of different people all wanting different features because all of those games were extremely different with different focuses.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
As far as map size, I remember while playing SWG, I decided to find out how big the planets are. They were huge and it took me a long time to find the edge but eventually I did (I only did it once and I forget which planet). Had they been true planets (sphere shaped), I would have ended up where I started (or close if I did a straight line) eventually. Nope, I remember seeing the edge. I wasn't disappointed as I figured that the world was a plane vice a sphere but it would have been cool as hell if it surprised me and was a sphere.
I have been desperately looking for a game that offers more than just killing and kill quests. Would you mind telling me which game it is you play? I'd love to give it a try.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a few statements that I believe would be the ultimate rule sets in an MMO regarding PvP.
1) Referring to SWG, a 2 faction game, a player can go from "covert" to "overt" at anytime via speaking to an NPC (War Recruiter?) at any time. The "overt" player can be attacked at any time regardless of where he is. It should take about 10-15 minutes to turn it off and revert to an "covert" status. While "covert", you can PvE forever and craft and RP and etc... This would work for any amount of warring factions. Also, if a "covert" player assists an "overt" player (heals him or whatever) that player automatically becomes "overt" for said 10-15 minutes.
2) Referring to UO, Faction Wars. One could think of this as Guild vs Guild or on a larger scale a built in faction. A built in faction is something like "The Legion of Rusty Blades" or "The Legion of Shallow Waters". One goes to a NPC recruiter for one of these guilds (maybe proves themselves via some quests or whatever) and then becomes a member. If these 2 legions go to war against each other well, you're in it everywhere you go. Guild vs Guild is obvious.
3) Rich lands for Natural Resources. A full open PvP zone where gathering materials takes much less time and the chance of getting rare crafting materials is increased greatly. Perfect reason for a crafter to get his warrior buddies to escort him into the land of doom.
Cool thing is if the game is good enough, PvE players will enjoy it and also see the wars going on around them and may want to participate from time to time.
Should it be "full loot" or maybe "partial loot" (any 1 or 2 items etc...) I'm on the fence. Whatever would work best.
Why you went on that ePeen tirade about the amount of MMOs you've played is beyond me, but good for you. o7
After that, you change the goal posts to some present day vs old school MMO thing that had nothing to do with the discussion which was that HFS, Malabooga and I had a different gaming experience back then.
"As for ESO, you can wear your tinfoil hat if you like..." <--- I'm not sure what stance you think I took on ESO or why you feel so compelled to throw around insults, but last I checked, ESO wasn't around back then so that comment is an odd one no matter how you look at it. It's just a bit humorous that you say we can't focus and that we have ADD, but three posts into a discussion and you're miles off topic on three different tangents in one single reply.
To get back on track...
Now, it would be great to get a response from you on that topic. However, if you're going to get insulted over perceived slights to your gaming prowess or lash out at us then please don't waste our time and refrain from replying.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The problem that you and a few others here have is that you get defensive to the point of actually hostile if you perceive a slight to EQ.
No one is trying to take away how meaningful EQ was for you. We said our experience was different and we found other things more fun. In other MMOs, those activites were the norm, not the exception. On the non-combat classes, I guess I'm mistaken. I don't remember being able to level up in EQ without fighting. If that was there, I never could find it.
Anyway, we didn't say your opinion was wrong. We didn't say you didn't have, shouldn't have or couldn't have had fun grinding mobs. But when you and certain others read an opinion different from yours about things like... ohh.... let's see....
you get defensive and hostile. You really can't see how that doesn't help?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Dont use EQ and SWG in same sentence because those 2 games were so different, one was sandbox, the other themepark. With all the glaring differences between the two.
YOu can do all those things you did in EQ in todays games.
And dont try to use PoE as some crutch, theres nothing in common in relation of inifinity/PoE and EQ/modern.
There are a lot of different personality types.
Bottom line is, there's a big audience that would love an old school MMORPG that incorporated slaying monsters as the core mechanic for progressing your character.
There's about 150 MMO games that are fighting over the WoW audience, which happens to be huge, and unfortunately, WoW holds about 90% of that audience and the other 149 games have about 10% of it.
Our (MMORPG gamers) frustration is that our developers and publishers all saw how big the WoW audience was, realized how similar WoW was to the games they were producing, and decided to try to copy and emulate WoW. At this point, the MMORPG audience has been completely abandoned in a failed effort to get 1% of the WoW audience.
All of these games fighting over p2p, f2p, b2p ETC.... WoW is p2p, they don't ever talk about that, all these new payment schemes are pointed at trying to get that 1 more % of the WoW audience that they're never going to have.
Please will a dev PLEASE say F the WoW audience for once and look at the huge amount of us on this forum (not the detractors here obviously, there will be plenty more WoW clones in the pipeline for you) that want to play a good old fashioned MMO monster slaying RPG.
It's been 12 YEARS since one came out
500 peope total is not "big audience" or "huge amount"
This forum has nearly 3 million members. Just because you are entertained by a different type of game doesn't mean the other 7 billion people in the world see it just like you.
Pretty much every 'Genre' leading game has an absolutely massive audience:
Call of Duty - Shooter
Clash of Clans - Wait & Build
World of Warcraft - Multiplayer Quest Tour
Mass Effect / Dragon Age - Console RPG
Skyrim - PC RPG
Starcraft - RTS
Unforunately, there's no game that has been introduced to the AAA MMORPG slot in 12 years.
Ah, sorry, april 1st, you got me there for a moment.
Indeed OP.. When I first started playing EQ back in 99, it was never a clock watching game in a hurry to max level.. But then I guess it all depends on the individual and their willingness to enjoy the journey, instead of focusing on the destination.. You know the common joke humor about kids, "Are we there yet? Are we their yet?".. That is actually how I think many of the MMO players are today.. I never understood why people play games in a hurry... We call those the "go go go" players.. They have no tolerance for pauses or a slower pace.. That always drove me nuts in WoW LFD grind.. I would say that 50% of everyone I had randomly played with hated anything less then 110% speed.. It was almost viewed as a crime to take more then 15 minutes to complete a heroic dungeon.. LOL
SWG never felt like a grind, I just wish it wasn't so bug ridden.. Damn them!!!.. The perfect IP in which to create a beautiful "sandpark" game, and SOE blew it.. Bioware didn't do any better.. Damn them too!!.. I doubt we'll see another game in where the content is created to last a year and longer.. The bulk of the gamers today go threw games like a hot knife through butter.. I just see any company on the horizon that employ the right people to pull it off.. Oh well.. I guess I"ll just stay with my f2p games, consoles and my phone apps..
Hahaha, the DING!....it used to mean something. Players even unknown players would congratulate you because they knew how much it took to get that next level. Sometimes catch myself still congratulating players when I see the made a new level. Often with no response back from that player. And I just think yeah he/she might "ding" in a few minutes again what's the use to congrat him/her on it.
But I didn't witness the "DING" much in EQ because my true love for this genre started with Star Wars Galaxies though did start with M59 and UO. EQ for some reason never clicked with me but did try the game allot due to other "online friends" playing at the time.
But I still play like I alway's played, this does mean I might not get invited into groups early on. Because due to experiance I've met so many groups that had pulled their character template from the net while I alway's love to experiment with my character till I personaly reach a satisfiyng state wich is often my time played between level 0 till 10 or 20. But eventually my character(s) turn out to be a good build I just take longer to achieve that. Because I like to learn from playing the game and not look up what's the best class/skilltree or what ever. I takes away my reason for playing games. But do know most will when offerd take the path of the least resistance and do not value actually creating something for themselfs, instead start with what's best. And I understand for many that's their fun. But the many don't understand OP's , mine or other "veteran players" fun. Not speaking for all vet players but merly a few I know or agree with. Because there are plenty of "vet players" that love what the genre is today in all it's aspects and wouldn't go back to what most consider "useless time-sinks"
Nah. I'm good. We didn't say there weren't other things to EQ or that the other things in EQ weren't fun. I mean, I even specifically stated that the other things were present and fun when I said "... we didn't like to grind mobs because we were doing other things in game that we found more fun" but evidently if there's ANY aspect of EQ a person states they don't like, you get defensive and off topic. You're still arguing against points/stances that no one has made, so I guess we're done here. Thanks for the colors, though!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
EQ had hell levels. There was also experience penalties for playing certain races like in D&D. The hell levels generally took twice as long or more then a normal level. Even the normal levels were really long. This was all in Vanilla when no one was max level and there wasn't much power leveling with high level buffs. The equipment wasn't very good. Generally you were hitting for less damage then the mob unless you were a caster.
i dont remember when mmos seemed to be going on forever. That being said, i do remember when mmos seemed to take forever, not because of the amount of content, but because of how boring it was to level up by mindlessly killing poor mobs over and over and over and over without reason. That was a terrible grind i would not welcome today. Nowadays devs replace "quests" with boring and grindy tasks and chores that have no reason to exist either, and thats how we level up now.
There needs to be a way to make leveling entertaining from lvl 1 to max. Otherwise, PLEASE get rid of levels. I love leveling with quests when the are directly attached to the lore and the storyline of the game, not with some lazy npc that cant do his job himself. Make questing matter or remove the levels.
This is what I mean. Every mmo that has come out in the past 12 years is aimed at getting people like YOU to play the game.
I don't think there's anything wrong with you, or even what you want. I just wish that for once a single developer of a single game somewhere would not give a rats ass about you. Make a game for us, the people that don't want a 'max' . The fact that you can even achieve some sort of max defeats the entire concept of a MMORPG.
The point is endless and constant development, not a goal oriented series of checkboxes to finish. We want characters that we can forever nuture and build, maybe only in slow and small ways, but we can put a little progress in each day and not feel like we're in some drag race to finish checking all the boxes like the last guy did.
i do not want to hit "max". I never play end game. As soon as i hit max level in a game i move on. Yes i want an endless experience, but if the game insists in having a level/progression cap then i want it to be achieved through the story of the game, not mindless killing or chore grind for exp. So, no.... the majority of mmorpgs made in the last decade are not for me or people like me. However, unless they find a way to make an "endless" mmorpg experience without having to rely on the massive mindless grind as a time filler, then i dont find it entertaining. And so far the thats the only way to keep an mmo going endlessly without the devs going crazy with content creation. Grinding as a time filler is not fun and is not good game design.
MMOs have evolved. Back in the day, the only viable indicator for character progression was a number above your characters head.
Today, MMOs offer many more ways to give players a sense of achievement. And they cater to all playstyles so you can go for easily attainable goals or the ones that take months
I do indeed remember those days.
Everquest 1 when pretty much nothing was handed to you. Took me a month slaughtering guards in Oggok in a party to work my way through the hell level of Level 40. Shortly after I dinged 41 we got trained and I was back at 75% in to L40. Nearly made me cry.
- No '?' showing quest givers, you had to go and chat with everyone. Level up? New Patch? Go talk to everyone AGAIN!
- Spent entire days just working some skill, because using it was the only way to level. Chatting back and forth on boats that took a half hour to cross the ocean to learn and perfect those other languages.
- Ah the thrills! L14 wandering a new zone when the L30 Gryphon flies up behind you and one shots you. Or you find that your Rusty Sword is useless against that Wisp or Ghoul. When games had an actual Learning Curve.
- The GM events where they took out their frustrations on the players. L30 undead in the L10 zone of Qeynos hills. A L60 Dragon in the L5 newbie zone. Ah, Paranoia, my old friend. Spawned the mantra "If it moves, Kill it! If it doesn't move, Kill it QUICK! It is being sneaky!"
- When the words "Train to Zone!" sparked unreasoning terror of your fellow players. Almost as bad as when the Cleric calls "OOM" as the pulling Ranger calls "Incoming a A Guk Ghoul Knight, and boy is it pissed!"
Well not the entire concept. Most players would say grouping is a key bit of MMORPGs, and by having a cap on progression you limit the amount of fragmentation to the community. Instead of players being scattered from level 100 to infinity, everyone is level 100 and only divided into maybe 3-5 gear tiers, which keeps everyone much more closely squished together in capability, which enables more players to group together.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Isn't it Mabinogi that doesn't have an level cap? People running around at like level 10,000. I can't remember lol
And there's plenty of games out there tailored just for you, you're just here again, looking for another one to gobble up. I want a game that can't be gobbled. I want a game to take that true MMORPG slot.
People have come up with these pejorative words like "grind" "chore" "mindless". Some of us consider farming monsters in search of extremely rare loot with a slow level progression relaxing and enjoyable. We don't want an "action packed adventure" we want a slow relaxing game to go develop our character a little bit further on. Spending an hour killing goblins that have a rare chance to drop this blue sword we want really bad... it relaxes us.
Maybe you hate it, so there's this giant list of wow clone mmo wanna be quest grinders out there to pick from. There's even games that have approached progression from every new conceivable way, with every new way of funding themselves.
None of it matters, There's this giant unserved market... The "ORIGINAL" runescape, Lineage, everquest, UO, SWG, ETC players... Will someone PLEASE make a game for us again. Not everyone is going to play it, like I'm never in my life going to play call of duty, but there's a TON of people starving for one of these games.
That isn't one market that's a bunch of different people all wanting different features because all of those games were extremely different with different focuses.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson