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[Column] General: Building Better Dungeons
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
Looking back, it doesn’t seem that long ago that I was blundering through the halls of Gnomeregan, plundering the riches of vanilla World of Warcraft with a pickup group that probably knew even less about the game than I did. I was in grad school with eons of free time on my hand (yes, you read that correctly), and would look forward to noobing my way through the next level-appropriate dungeon for hours, with a healthy anxiety that my random group would disband after a total party wipe and require me to start the whole thing over again. Dungeon runs were 2-3 hour affairs that turned into whole afternoon or evening activities when I hit the level cap and started 40-person raiding with my guild at the time.
Read more of Som Pourfarzaneh's Building Better Dungeons.
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Comments
Nice historical overview, but you missed a key piece - though fungeons was a close call
"What do you think are some ways to build better dungeons?" Fun(geon)com
I mean, I never was part of the mere 2-3% of raiders (/cheers Sapience
) but I still love to replay some of the dungeons in AoC, and TSW has great ones as well (and AO was nice too). Somehow they can put fun in there, instead of a simpe ability-ballet and rotations and constant watching the cast bars. The story is cool, too.
As honorary mention I'd add LotRO's Inn of the Forsaken, true it's only a 3-man but the mechanics and the class balance is fun in there. Hele has nice mechanics too.
Dungeons are the reason I play MMOs. Lotro used to have great dungeons now they don't even make them anymore, hence why I don't play the game anymore.
For today's games Wildstar has the best dungeons by far.
EQ2 has great dungeon design. Granted, it was better 5+ years ago, but it is still a game that did it right.
I think a compiled list from this thread should be given to ANET to help improve what GW2 offers: the worst dungeon design I've ever seen. Not that they would listen to the community on anything truly relevant, but it's always a feel good move to try.
Simple, dungeons shouldn't be loot pinatas.
Dungeons should be destinations. They should be journeys unto themselves. They've been "gamified" and purpose built for loot acquisition instead of being a place to get lost in. Legend of Grimrock. It's a dungeon crawl, it's what a dungeon is supposed to be, not 3 rooms + 4 hallways.
There's plenty of games with short'n'sweet dungeon content, let's see some really long dungeons.
You know, I can't remember if I've ever done any of AoC's dungeons. I do like that game though!
I agree with a lot of what your saying about dungeons here. I think you might have added a design element that has gone by the wayside, of explore-able dungeons with multiple paths. Many gamers are tired of being led by the hand, sick of the single path gameplay in modern MMO's, and want the choices we had in older MMO's.
Currently it's impossible to get lost in a dungeon. Years back, that was half the fun of a dungeon crawl.
love dungeons with traps and what not , and i u have some jumping ? awesome
today dungeons are just corridors with trash boss trash boss , boring
Oh, in this case I'd suggest at least the first one, BC at around lvl30, especially if you like Indy
(Jones, I mean). Rolling boulder, fiery corridor, traps, etc. My personal favourite though is the Amphitheatre from dungeons, and Vistrix from the raids.
"Dungeon runs were 2-3 hour affairs" - Sheldor's Atzel run with a bladder check
https://youtu.be/j66GADhvBNs
It really depends if the dungeons are open-world or instanced.
Both need to be designed differently. Instanced dungeons are good for more strategic and challenging content, since there isn't anybody else around to interrupt or grief the group.
Open-world dungeons can also be challenging, but it's also a risk due to pvp or trolls/griefers. I've seen it happen so many times. Other guilds would come pull some boss or trash, then kite them to reset them back.
There have been many memorable moments with open-world dungeons though, such as in EQ2 and Lotro.
I wouldn't call it the worst design ever. It's their A.I. that is really terrible. The layouts and different paths are pretty good.
Agreed, EQ and Vanguard had the best dungeons.
I also enjoyed the dungeons in DDO, where the quest and the dungeon were one and the same.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
No matter how scripted you get, or if you take out or change trash mobs, as soon as players can get the walkthrough online, they'll blaze through it at top speed finishing all the applicable activities within as fast as possible because once you see the way the trick works, the magic is lost.
Build dungeons that change and spawn different mobs using different battle mechanics, then commit time to crafting new mechanics once the old tropes have been used up and are all too well documented.. And watch as the audience gets wowed by the magic once again.
Vanguard - Best open world dungeons
Wildstar - Best instanced dungeons
Depends on your taste, but I believe most players who have played both games to a greater extend (which means 1% of the entire MMO community) will agree on this.
I miss old school dungeons too.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
I've got to second this.
And while a year ago I might agree with Telo on them not listening to the playerbase, given the recent developments with HoT, it seems like the opposite is true. The reason they have appeared to be ignoring their players seems to be because they were taking that feedback and making it into an expansion overhaul of the game. And indeed many of the big complaints I've been seeing addressed one by one.
They hired a raid designer to make better boss mechanics, and the new dungeon (aetherblade) is way better than most of the older ones, but it's too hard to really PUG. The most important change being that they're correcting the 'tank & spank' strats most current bosses have from being able to cheese the bad AI. And it makes a huge difference.
This is the problems dungeons have in online games specifically, though. In MMOs especially they are forced to walk a tightrope of conflicting expectations. They must be rewarding, but playable. They must be fun, challenging, but not too hard. They must be short enough that they can be done in a single play session, but long enough that they feel like an epic journey.
Essentially the expectations from dungeons have gotten to a point where people want to basically experience Dark Souls, in a period of an hour or two. And that just doesn't work. And as soon as you add loot (the reward) into the equation it gets even more problematic. Because people don't want to spend year(s) grinding to maybe get an item from a given dungeon. They want to feel rewarded for their time, but as soon as the rewards become significant enough people WILL farm them.
EQ/EQ2/Vanguard had some great dungeons, but that was a very different time back then. When it comes to single player / multiplayer dungeon crawlers, I think we can still have those older epic dungeons. When it comes to MMOs, I think the best we can expect would be something like what GW1 had. Long elaborate dungeons with versatile rewards (essentially crafting mats), and the option to do as much or as little of the dungeon as you could handle at a given time, but still be rewarded along the way. Kind of like in dark souls, how the whole game is basically one giant dungeon, but there are pleanty of places for you to stop and pickup where you left off later. I.E. checkpoints.
In a lot of ways I'd agree that most newer dungeons are too bitesized, and they should be made more elaborate again. However, there needs to be a middle ground. If they do get a lot larger, there needs to be break points for people that don't punish people for taking a break from the game, or not being able to play on a certain day.
Both these post I agree with and exemplify why I no longer play modern MMO's.. Dungeons / Raids of today are linear hallways of encounters.. Personally I don't like instanced zones.. If you want to play in a "private" setting, then go play on your console.. lol I don't want dungeons that play like a straight line, I want explorable dungeons that are laid out like a spider web, giving the players multiple paths to take, none of them ending at some finish line.. In fact, WTF is it with dungeons having a start point and a finish line anyways? I like the old days of dungeon crawls where you explored them just like "outdoor" public zones.. I first crawl was in EQ.. Welcome to Blackburrow....... Wooo hooo, talk about getting lost in that zone as a noob.. LOL
Yes there is a better way to make a dungeon.
To start you don't FORCE any aspect of that dungeon onto the player,choice is ALWAYS the best route.
Then you create each aspect including tunnels,design,mobs with a PURPOSE,NOT just to get in the way of players and force them onto them.
Interaction and done WELL not the way i have seen games do it like ,even the dumbest person in the world would know to pull that lever standing at a dead end in front of an elevator...Ahem...Bloodthorne anyone?Also NO sparklies or arrows or anything to guide you to that interaction.
Have several options in the dungeon,you can go left,right,up,down you know more CHOICE.
Varied mobs joined with a solid combat design.That means if your group is full of magic casters,you might not want to engage mobs that are strong versus magic.AOE mobs that would have your group think before engaging and to not get too close.Mobs with solid AI that changes up and reacts in a sort of realistic way,NOT just 10 bazillion hp and a super high regen,that type of mob AI is a lazy no brainer.
As i eluded to in the last paragraph,have some mobs strong against melee or strong versus magic,don't just make all trash mobs weak to everything.In other words,there should be no such thing as a trash mob,they should have purpose,as i eluded to in the first paragraph.Have them drop perhaps rare items useful to other system designs and still leave the premier loot to the Boss/s.
Last part:DO NOT make the Boss some static mob sitting at the end of the tunnel,he should move throughout the entire tunnel,perhaps at times walking among tons of linking,leaving your group to wait and think before engaging.A Boss should NEVER be a forced 25+ man raid,he shoudl simply require EVERY aspect of the combat system,which should only require a 5 or 6 man group depending how deep your systems are.
Example 1-2 dps,a Mage type that can handle nuking and adds,a Tank,a healer,a debuffer,buffer and or perhaps 2 options for RANGED dps in case you do not want to get too close to an heavy AOE mob.You should NEVER need 20 players all whacking on a mob to do damage it is unrealistic and makes no sense at all,unless you think having a high regen is realistic without anyway the mob is attaining that regen.Instead if that is the route your system designer wants to aim for,then it should be an ability the Boss uses just like a player would and only lasts a certain amount of time.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I 100% disagree, SOE makes dungeons to FORCE mobs in your path,so you have no choice of how to play,you basically just start killing every creature in the dungeon.That imo is a super lazy design.Also they had everything linking,like even through walls,it always looked bad/fake whatever,pretty much only because their game engine was crap and their coding was crap and they didn't care to fix bugs.
SOE and pretty much EVERY game forces a path then at the end of that path ,......the BOSS,pretty much a kid out of secondary school could design that.Mobs should free form,move about and NOT have 20 mobs all standing in the first area of the map,like why would there be 20 mobs just standing there,with no reason,no food nothing to fight,just staring at walls.Now SOE did do some things right,example of what i just said,they would have mobs mining in the tunnels or working on something,it looked more realistic,however those tunnels were usually TOO SMALL so you aggro'd everything.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.