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What ever happend to camping for xp?

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  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,596
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Rydeson

     WRONGGGGGGGGG..  My GOD are you wrong..  I'm doubting you ever camped in a game before, and why..  Camping has nothing to do with "grinding" the same mobs.   Have people done that in the past with some games such as the old "camp checks".. YES..  but one is not related to the other.. It was always quite often that groups would have a camp location, and pull ANYTHING they could.. (not the same mobs)..  We used to do this in many of the outdoor zones in EQ.. 

    And often groups would set up a camp in Overthere (the ledge) and pull anything that would give them experience.. But watch out for the wandering named nastys..  Just to help you out, please write this down.. Camp = location    Grind =time spent..  One is not related to the other..  Just because at times they can happen together does not prove a "cause and effect" logic.. 

    Seriously dude.. You really need to stop there.. lol  We all KNOW that the green and blue rewards in the expansion Quest  made old world epics next to useless..  If you refused to do ANY quest in Outlands it would be damn near impossible to ever complete a dungeon..  It was those quest rewards that allowed people to jump into dungeons.. To say that random drops from trash mobs is equal to QUEST LINE rewards is just flat dishonest..  To say that "grinding mobs" is superior is just funny.. If it was so superior NO ONE would be doing quest / rewards.. Who are you fooling.. LOL 

    You'd enjoy a lot more success if your replies actually disputed what it was you were replying to.  You tell someone they're wrong, then you go on to describe details of how it essentially is still a grind.

     From a logical standpoint, your position is hopeless, mostly because of these two things:

    • Grind is a subjective measure of too much repetition. (Not enough gameplay variety per time spent.)
    • Camping was the most repetitive form of MMORPG gameplay. 

    Especially when they actively avoid what little variety there is to be had.  For example, named mobs which would actually provide a challenge.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    The success of WoW had nothing to do with "camping" vs "questing".. 

    It has a lot to do, among other things which made WoW much more enjoyable experience even for vast majority of EQ players (i wont discriminate here, for vast majority of "old school" games players) - questing as a progression method, no forced grouping.. Well there you go again not understanding many things.. What does "camping" have to do with forced grouping.?  NOT A DAMN THING..  Have you ever played vanilla EQ or similar? Your reasoning and logic needs improvement..

    WoW did away with mechanics that didnt work and those never came back because pretty much noone wants them and people who wont them cant sustain a game.

    Its very simple.

    In fact only reminiscent of "old school" mechanics was endgame as it was equvivalent of camping/forced grouping Blizzard considers failure since <5% of playerbase participated in it. And guess who were co designers of WoW vanilla endgame? Thats right and that was only mistake Blizzard made with vanilla WoW.  Do you realize you are trying to partner camping=forced grouping to justify your hatred towards camping..  WoW's biggest difference away from EQ was solo ability with it's casual gameplay.  Which has NOTHING to do with "camping".. FYI.. So please stop trying to merge the two together in have the same definition..  TY

    As for your 5% thingy. Where did you get that from, cause in case you haven't kept up with WoW the past number of years.. It's about 5-10% of the playerbase that ever completes "Raiding", but Blizzard still designs that content with every expansion and patch.. LOL , so that somehow contradicts your logic that anything at 5% = deleted..   he he he

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Dullahan

    EQ was a convoluted mess by 2004, and vanilla WoW did everything EQ did better.

    Neither game is true to its original form, and neither have any bearing on what old mechanics could be successful in a new game.

    A lot of designers make mistakes with the subtler things, but it's unlikely they'll make the mistake of designing gameplay around sitting in one place doing the same thing.

    At least not MMORPG designers.  The demographic of people who want Farmville-style games-as-a-relaxation-activity doesn't really overlap enough with the very large market of people who want their MMORPGs to involve gameplay.  

    Though if you're only arguing that such a game could be made for fewer than 600k users (neither EVE nor EQ ever surpassed this) then sure maybe that could happen on a smaller budget.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    You'd enjoy a lot more success if your replies actually disputed what it was you were replying to.  You tell someone they're wrong, then you go on to describe details of how it essentially is still a grind.

     From a logical standpoint, your position is hopeless, mostly because of these two things:

    • Grind is a subjective measure of too much repetition. (Not enough gameplay variety per time spent.)
    • Camping was the most repetitive form of MMORPG gameplay.  OMFG.. YOUR opinion and wrong definition.. Seriously you need to stop trying to say camping and grind mean the same thing.. They don't.. LOL
    It's not rocket science.. I can only conclude you never played a game that allowed and rewarded camping..  vs  questing..  Try it some time, then come back to chat.. 
     

    I'm not sure you're looking at the thread the same way the rest of us are, so let me throw this possibility out there.

    • What you see seems to be a battle against people not as smart as you because their view doesn't match your experience playing video games. 
    • What a lot of others here are seeing is actual game developers as well as people knowledgeable about both the history and design of MMOs explaining to you how things actually are.

    In response, you repeatedly replying with "OMG you are sooo wrong LOL go learn something then come back lol"

     

     

    Just wanted to put that out there. That aside, he said that camping was the most repetitive form of MMORPG gameplay. Would you agree it's one of the top 3? If not, what aspects of MMO gameplay do you feel are more repetitive than camping?

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,596
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Especially when they actively avoid what little variety there is to be had.  For example, named mobs which would actually provide a challenge.

    Well there you go.. TY for showing me you never played EQ, or have a clue how the game works.. When most go to the zone "The Overthere" it's usually for those in the 30's level wise, especially for good races that often camped on ( the ledge ).. Why the ledge? because it was a safe location to evac from in case the shit hit the fan.. Now, as for the named mobs.. We called them the "goon patrol" (aka dragoons) which were high level and the ability to summon, so you couldn't run from them.. It's why most groups had "evil" races pull mobs, because evil races were not KOS to the goons..  Now since you have NO KNOWLEDGE of how vanilla EQ was, I"ll forgive your attempt to insult..

     

    So you basically took the tiny bits of the game that could have actually provided variety and challenge, and actively avoided them. 

    That was my point. 

    Even bravely ran away-away when a mob pull became train-to-camp.

    So... at its best, a grind.  At worst, TPW.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Rydeson  OMFG.. YOUR opinion and wrong definition.. Seriously you need to stop trying to say camping and grind mean the same thing.. They don't.. LOL 

    It's not my opinion.  Start actually observing what's going on around you -- "grind" is always used in the way I defined.  Camping is probably the most grind-provoking combination of traits possible in a feature.  So maybe we could say it's a step too far to flat-out call it grind, because grind is subjective.  But it's literally a set of mechanics most likely to provoke a sense of grind out of players.  (Stay in the same place, pull the same mobs, repeatedly grind them ad grindeum.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by Robsolf
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Especially when they actively avoid what little variety there is to be had.  For example, named mobs which would actually provide a challenge.

    Well there you go.. TY for showing me you never played EQ, or have a clue how the game works.. When most go to the zone "The Overthere" it's usually for those in the 30's level wise, especially for good races that often camped on ( the ledge ).. Why the ledge? because it was a safe location to evac from in case the shit hit the fan.. Now, as for the named mobs.. We called them the "goon patrol" (aka dragoons) which were high level and the ability to summon, so you couldn't run from them.. It's why most groups had "evil" races pull mobs, because evil races were not KOS to the goons..  Now since you have NO KNOWLEDGE of how vanilla EQ was, I"ll forgive your attempt to insult..

     

    So you basically took the tiny bits of the game that could have actually provided variety and challenge, and actively avoided them. 

    That was my point. 

    Even bravely ran away-away when a mob pull became train-to-camp.

    So... at its best, a grind.  At worst, TPW.

    I believe his point was that the safe area alone was really challenging.  None the less you still have to first find a safe area to pull by exploring.  You could still explore, but it would be very dangerous.  Usually you had to be fairly alert because of wandering mobs, trains, and other random things that occurred.  This may have encouraged finding a safe spot, but it also added the excitement because if you really wanted to explore the zone it was extremely dangerous like it would be if you went on an adventure into an unknown place somewhere.  Some people were up to it and others were not.  Most people will always take the path of least resistance as shown by the games that are coming out today.

  • TorikTorik Member UncommonPosts: 2,342
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Most people will always take the path of least resistance as shown by the games that are coming out today.

    Camp grinding is the path of least resistance.

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,921
    Originally posted by Arazale

    To the people who keep trying to advocate that you can't camp for exp anymore efficiently. I hereby offer you a challenge. Since you keep trying to claim that its a "rare occurence" when camping for exp is better than questing, then i challenge you to a level race so to speak. In any of the following games:

     

    WoW

    Tera

    Rift

    LOTRO

    (I'd say FFXIV ARR but you're forced to follow the main storyline to unlock many things like chocobo/airships/class/job skills)

     

    Aura Kingdom

    Eden Eternal

    ArcheAge

     

    I think this list is sufficient enough to prove my point that it isn't "rare". We can either play only as the other plays, or just go at our own pace and compare our /played at max level or something like that.

     

    So who's willing to actually put their word to the test. I for one am sick of seeing threads like this pop up when the people who write them are downright blind. Very few things about the old times are truly missing. The only things that are missing are more forced grouping(which was NOT a good thing no matter what you say), public dungeons(which again was NOT a good thing because you're only focusing on the fun you had and not the annoyances), and truly epic quests since there were so few compared to todays number.

     

    You still have the option to camp for xp. It's still the best in many many games, most games even. You have the choice to socialize with whatever group you're in. Most of the options were put into the players hands, and the players act like they just completely evaporated when if they were to just look down the bridge of their nose they'd see it right in their palms.

     

     

    Aion is a good game for mob grinding.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,559
    Grind is not about time spent. It could be 10 minutes or 10 days. It had always had two parts. 1. Repetitive activity. 2. Dull monotonous.

    Camping is the most repetitive activity in a game and often gets dull quickly. If you had a lively group that delayed the dull part.

    The one exception would be in the hours plus long wait for boss mobs since you might not actually be repeating anything. However if there are repeated trash mobs that is the epitome of grinding.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by Torik
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Most people will always take the path of least resistance as shown by the games that are coming out today.

    Camp grinding is the path of least resistance.

    It is the path of least resistance in EQ, but it's still difficult to keep a camp of appropriate level.  Many times groups would wipe even at camps. 

    If we are talking in terms of difficulty.  Camping in EQ was still harder then soloing quests in a game like WoW in terms of actual combat.

    It was sometimes boring and repetitive, but generally you had to keep on your toes as a mistake was costly.

    That's not to say I necessarily want camping back after giving it some thought.  Dark Souls has kind of reminded me that it isn't that fun to repeatedly kill the same mobs, but I do think questing and exploration could be done in a much different and better way then it is now.

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by Torik
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Most people will always take the path of least resistance as shown by the games that are coming out today.

    Camp grinding is the path of least resistance.

    It is the path of least resistance in EQ, but it's still difficult to keep a camp of appropriate level.  Many times groups would wipe even at camps. 

    If we are talking in terms of difficulty.  Camping in EQ was still harder then soloing quests in a game like WoW in terms of actual combat.

    It was sometimes boring and repetitive, but generally you had to keep on your toes as a mistake was costly.

    That's not to say I necessarily want camping back after giving it some thought.  Dark Souls has kind of reminded me that it isn't that fun to repeatedly kill the same mobs, but I do think questing and exploration could be done in a much different and better way then it is now.

    Its because people fell asleep because of boredom and mindnumbness of it.

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by Torik
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Most people will always take the path of least resistance as shown by the games that are coming out today.

    Camp grinding is the path of least resistance.

    It is the path of least resistance in EQ, but it's still difficult to keep a camp of appropriate level.  Many times groups would wipe even at camps. 

    If we are talking in terms of difficulty.  Camping in EQ was still harder then soloing quests in a game like WoW in terms of actual combat.

    It was sometimes boring and repetitive, but generally you had to keep on your toes as a mistake was costly.

    That's not to say I necessarily want camping back after giving it some thought.  Dark Souls has kind of reminded me that it isn't that fun to repeatedly kill the same mobs, but I do think questing and exploration could be done in a much different and better way then it is now.

    Its because people fell asleep because of boredom and mindnumbness of it.

    You actually couldn't relax to much because there was always mobs wandering around and making a mistake meant death to not only you, but your group if you were camp grinding.  Then everyone would be pissed because they would have lost a lot of time from the experience loss.

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by Torik
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Most people will always take the path of least resistance as shown by the games that are coming out today.

    Camp grinding is the path of least resistance.

    It is the path of least resistance in EQ, but it's still difficult to keep a camp of appropriate level.  Many times groups would wipe even at camps. 

    If we are talking in terms of difficulty.  Camping in EQ was still harder then soloing quests in a game like WoW in terms of actual combat.

    It was sometimes boring and repetitive, but generally you had to keep on your toes as a mistake was costly.

    That's not to say I necessarily want camping back after giving it some thought.  Dark Souls has kind of reminded me that it isn't that fun to repeatedly kill the same mobs, but I do think questing and exploration could be done in a much different and better way then it is now.

    Its because people fell asleep because of boredom and mindnumbness of it.

    You actually couldn't relax to much because there was always mobs wandering around and making a mistake meant death to not only you, but your group if you were camp grinding.  Then everyone would be pissed because they would have lost a lot of time from the experience loss.

    If youre bad you cant realx even in todays game and youll die over and over.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,709


    Originally posted by Axehilt
    From a logical standpoint, your position is hopeless, mostly because of these two things: Grind is a subjective measure of too much repetition. (Not enough gameplay variety per time spent.) Camping was the most repetitive form of MMORPG gameplay. 
    The first part, I heartily agree with. I disagree with the second part.

    In my mind, daily quests are the most repetitive form of MMO gameplay. At least with camping one could be assured of moving on in the near future. Daily Quests have no such hope.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    The first part, I heartily agree with. I disagree with the second part.

    In my mind, daily quests are the most repetitive form of MMO gameplay. At least with camping one could be assured of moving on in the near future. Daily Quests have no such hope.

    Eh, doing 10 different things (of which 6 will tend to be genuinely unique activities) once a day is a lot less varied than doing one thing for 2 hours against one set of mobs, and then that same thing for 3 hours at the next set of mobs, and so on.

    It'd be quite an uphill battle to attempt to argue that endlessly killing one mob type at a time is less repetitive than the small but undeniable variety that exists in dailies.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • hockeyplayrhockeyplayr Member UncommonPosts: 604
    I think this is what actually developed the community.  I used to play Runescape way back when and that was the only way to level up and it was mind-numbingly boring.  So you had to get a group so you had someone to chat with. 
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,709


    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    The first part, I heartily agree with. I disagree with the second part.In my mind, daily quests are the most repetitive form of MMO gameplay. At least with camping one could be assured of moving on in the near future. Daily Quests have no such hope.
    Eh, doing 10 different things (of which 6 will tend to be genuinely unique activities) once a day is a lot less varied than doing one thing for 2 hours against one set of mobs, and then that same thing for 3 hours at the next set of mobs, and so on.It'd be quite an uphill battle to attempt to argue that endlessly killing one mob type at a time is less repetitive than the small but undeniable variety that exists in dailies.
    Dagnabbit! Looks I'm wrong yet again. Tell me again what "fun" is. I cannot seem to think for myself, nor have differing opinions than you.

    I've been wrong about gameplay, boring, and repetitive. Please, sir, tell me what I think.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Dagnabbit! Looks I'm wrong yet again. Tell me again what "fun" is. I cannot seem to think for myself, nor have differing opinions than you.

    I've been wrong about gameplay, boring, and repetitive. Please, sir, tell me what I think.

    You seem to be struggling with this.  Let's break it down simply:

    • Repetition is objective.  A game mechanic either involves variety, or it doesn't.  
    • Enjoyment is subjective.  (ie what you consider fun.)  It's just an opinion.
    Which means...
    • You CAN subjectively enjoy objectively repetitive things.
    • You CAN'T claim something is more repetitive, when we can objectively compare the two things to see that it's less repetitive.
    You weren't merely claiming you enjoyed (subjective) repetition, you were trying to claim that a game which is objectively more varied was somehow more repetitive than other games which were objectively less varied.
     
    You're a participant in the conversation, you should probably keep track of what's being said.  Subjective fun wasn't even mentioned in the last two posts.  We've only been discussing something objective.
     

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

    Originally posted by Robsolf

    So you basically took the tiny bits of the game that could have actually provided variety and challenge, and actively avoided them. 

    That was my point.  The reason those tiny bits are avoid because back in the day there were mobs in the zone that would wipe your clock as designed and you better learn to ID them and be careful.. No carebear play in the old days..  Your argument is as silly as saying that those mid level groups should be attacking the Sand Giant in Oasis.. Really???

    Like I said, it is obvious you have no first hand knowledge of vanilla EQ in it's prime..  Tis a shame..

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by Rydeson  OMFG.. YOUR opinion and wrong definition.. Seriously you need to stop trying to say camping and grind mean the same thing.. They don't.. LOL 

    It's not my opinion.  Start actually observing what's going on around you -- "grind" is always used in the way I defined.  Camping is probably the most grind-provoking combination of traits possible in a feature.  So maybe we could say it's a step too far to flat-out call it grind, because grind is subjective.  But it's literally a set of mechanics most likely to provoke a sense of grind out of players.  (Stay in the same place, pull the same mobs, repeatedly grind them ad grindeum.)  That is YOUR example to excuse and justify your biased thinking..  There were many times a puller would go out and "pull" a variety of mobs from any direction back to the group.. This is camping.. It's the STATIC location in which groups kill from..  That has been removed from today's gameplay NOT because said camping was inferior.. Camping for the most part is no longer optimal because of mob leashing..  If you don't understand how "leashing" effects "camping", then there is nothing any of us can say for you to comprehend it..

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Grind is not about time spent. It could be 10 minutes or 10 days. It had always had two parts. 1. Repetitive activity. 2. Dull monotonous... Sorry I disagree with you.. Grind is a subjective view a player has that relates to "time spent" performing an activity vs the reward outcome that results from it..  I can play Call of Duty for hours, and not feel like I'm grinding because I'm enjoying it.. Same with practicing at the driving range in golf.. But once it crosses the subjective line between fun>work, then it becomes a grind..

    Camping is the most repetitive activity in a game and often gets dull quickly. If you had a lively group that delayed the dull part.  Sounds like you too never played vanilla EQ or similar games, but only carry your biased view based upon disgrunted former players via "the grapevine"..  "MOST REPETITIVE" activity I have ever did has to be WoW's end game, and that is NOT camping.. in the strict sense..

    The one exception would be in the hours plus long wait for boss mobs since you might not actually be repeating anything. However if there are repeated trash mobs that is the epitome of grinding.

     
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Rydeson

     That is YOUR example to excuse and justify your biased thinking..  There were many times a puller would go out and "pull" a variety of mobs from any direction back to the group.. This is camping.. It's the STATIC location in which groups kill from..  That has been removed from today's gameplay NOT because said camping was inferior.. Camping for the most part is no longer optimal because of mob leashing..  If you don't understand how "leashing" effects "camping", then there is nothing any of us can say for you to comprehend it..

     

    Well I wouldn't call what I said an "example".  It was simply a statement of logic.  My thinking is biased towards logic and evidence though, so you're correct in saying that the statement justified my way of thinking.

    Your description of camping basically acts as evidence to reinforce my logic:

    • The party sits at a static location.  This means less variety, which is more repetition, which makes a mechanic more likely to be considered grind.
    • Only one player (puller) moves around a bit.  This player gets a tiny bit more variety, but he isn't actually traveling very far.
    • The only activity is killing. The lack of variety makes players very likely to consider it a grind.
    In quest-based games a player is also their own puller, so they get pulling gameplay and combat gameplay during combat quests.  And then they also get all the other types of gameplay from other types of quests, and then there's the brief interludes of running back and forth between quests and the hub, and overall the result is substantially more variety.
     
    So your description of camping (which matches with my own experience with it) provides further evidence that it's nearly the most repetitive form of gameplay a game can offer, which explains why many players flat-out equate it with grind.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • QuicksandQuicksand Member UncommonPosts: 680
    From zoning into the common lands and shouting "camp check" to cautiously watching for someone to shout "Train" as we sat near Karnors Castle entrance, I loved the old style of mmo gaming. Running from one quest hub to the next really sucks.

    www.90and9.net
    www.prophecymma.com

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321

    Maybe one day an indie MMO will come out that will have this for those who like it.

     

    Personally, I think sitting in one spot (like EVE mining is pretty much the same thing), grinding with brain turned off and not moving was the most boring, grindy, most mind numbing feature I'm PERSONALLY glad is gone from the MMOs "I PLAY". Thats just me though, I really really disliked sitting in one spot doing nothing else. Once WoW came and I was always moving, that was WAY more fun for me.

     

    probably a vast majority of MMO players (maybe not on this site, but on average...) disliked camping for hours and doing nothing else but killing the same few mobs (or just one mob). Hence why its pretty much gone.

     

    I even like the introduction of tasks (that is what pretty much what quests are in most themeparks, mundane tasks, except The Secret World is vastly more involved in quests/story/missions whatever you want to call it) that WoW introduced...made it a lot more fun and have a purpose of killing innocent lifeforms in the game world.

     

    Though, I'd rather quests be more like in The Secret World with a huge open world...epic, have to actually think and research...that is pretty much the BEST "quest" MMO. That is the optimal amount of fun for me.

     

    Camping? Well, I won't personally play an MMO focused on camping, be it PvE OR PvP...not fun at all. But I'm sure there is a niche that would like an MMO like that.

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  • GestankfaustGestankfaust Member UncommonPosts: 1,989
    Funny how the most ridiculous arguments lasts 45 pages here. Yet never get to the heart of what the post is about...wow

    "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Your description of camping basically acts as evidence to reinforce my logic:

    • The party sits at a static location.  This means less variety, which is more repetition, which makes a mechanic more likely to be considered grind.
    • Only one player (puller) moves around a bit.  This player gets a tiny bit more variety, but he isn't actually traveling very far.
    • The only activity is killing. The lack of variety makes players very likely to consider it a grind.
    In quest-based games a player is also their own puller, so they get pulling gameplay and combat gameplay during combat quests.  And then they also get all the other types of gameplay from other types of quests, and then there's the brief interludes of running back and forth between quests and the hub, and overall the result is substantially more variety.
     
    So your description of camping (which matches with my own experience with it) provides further evidence that it's nearly the most repetitive form of gameplay a game can offer, which explains why many players flat-out equate it with grind.

    Ahhh I see a HUGE problem with your position.. You are looking at playing the game from a singular player.. Everything you argue about is based upon one player experiencing a variety of actions..  And that is based upon that singular player wanting and desiring the most variety in a shorter period of time.. Call it exploration or adventuring  vs "camping"..   However, with your position you refuse to recognize and acknowledge problems that are created by "quest" hub systems..

    There are no real pullers in today's game due to the mob leash law..  There is a nerf the gaming genre didn't need..  Add the mob leash greatly reduced my enjoyment of playing.. OH make a mistake, no problem just run away 10 yards and "reset".. Seriously? YOU call that good gameplay?  Subjective view tho.. Some such as yourself may enjoy it, I call it crap..

    Now lets address that "brief interludes" as you call them..  Grrrrr Another find example of bullshit gameplay designed for the singular player..  What we end up with is players ALL over the map doing their own thing because their "quest" log is separates them..  One player is on quest #4,5 and 7, and another is on 6,9, and 11, and another is on 8, 10 and 12..  Players will avoid grouping up because they are all on different steps of the quest hub train.. BAD design if you are looking at it from a pure "mmo group" philosophy.. And running back and forth is the biggest WASTE of time I have ever experienced..   Here is your typical quest line:

    NPC tells you to go kill 10 wolves..  > (player completes it) then runs back to NPC  for reward

    NPC tells you to pick up the 10 badges on corpses the wolves killed > (player completes) and runs back to NPC

    NPC tells you to kill the alpha wolf that is the leader > (again player completes it) and runs back

    OMFGGGGGGGG Seriously.. Running back and forth to the same damn area to do multiple things that can NOT BE DONE at the same time because of the quest line prohibits it.. I can't get credit for killing the leader because I have not unlocked that quest yet, etc etc..  This design is ANTI SOCIAL and really discourages group play.. Where as "camping" actually allows it.. There are no hurdles to jump over, or things to unlock..  

    Originally posted by Quicksand
    From zoning into the common lands and shouting "camp check" to cautiously watching for someone to shout "Train" as we sat near Karnors Castle entrance, I loved the old style of mmo gaming. Running from one quest hub to the next really sucks.

    Now there are some memories.. I remember being in one of multiple groups "camping" the north wall of KC gaining XP in hopes of then moving inside and finding a group there as well..  There were always a lot of nail biting moments when a pull goes south, and even more fun when the dragon would spawn in the zone and we rush to organize a "raid" party to take her down.. LOVED IT..  Just as much fun as when my named mob would spawn inside KC that I needed for my druid epic quest..

    Some here on the forums think that camping is a grind of playing whack a mole on the same 3 targets over and over.. Boy, are they wrong.. Oh sure you can find camps like that such as inside Higkhold Keep (guard room, raider room), but the most fun was outdoor camps when your puller had the freedom and skill to pull a variety of mobs..

     

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