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I have no problem with "clones" but...

KopogeroKopogero Member UncommonPosts: 1,685

What I find it so strange is how so many got blinded by WOW's success that they overlooked the other successful MMORPG's.
In August 2005 SOE reported that they sold 1 mil copies of Star Wars Galaxies. Ultima Online on other hand also had 250,000 subscribers in March 2003. So, this is what puzzles me...the huge success of MMORPG's that did not follow WOW/Everquest formula existed.

The MMORPG market 10-15 years was much much smaller compared to the last couple of years. I remember running Ultima Online and SWG on a Pentium III 1000 MHZ cpu with dial up connection....I mean I don't get it, outside of EVE which is a niche MMORPG (space and ships) no one brought a newer clone version of these games and I bet if they did they would see a huge success because they are completely different MMORPG's compared to the many many WOW clones that exist today plus of course WOW itself...

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Comments

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536

    This is one of the things I've been pointing out recently in response to the claims that there is no market for oldschool mmorpgs.

    WoW has blinded both players and studios/investors as to what normal success looks like.  Now we are still getting the same variety of games, even though they are barely maintaining the numbers that games had prior to WoW.  Just to be clear, 15 years ago when early mmorpgs had 100-500,000 subscribers, there was less than 10% of the people on the internet as there is today.  TEN PERCENT.


  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,411
    Who cares about numbers sold.  What matters is sustained population.  That is where the return on investment is found.  If a company is going to invest AAA money they want AAA returns in months not decades.
  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Those games were nowhere near as successful as World of Warcraft was/is.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by DMKano

    How many "WoW clones" exist?

    I can think of couple popular ones - Allods and Runes of magic.

    Sure there are some lesser popular games - like Alganon, 4story, Forsaken world.

     

    But seriously - as far as AAA games go - "wow clone" is thrown about often - I can't think of a single AAA game that is an actual "WoW clone"

    True.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,100
    Originally posted by DMKano

    How many "WoW clones" exist?

    I can think of couple popular ones - Allods and Runes of magic.

    Sure there are some lesser popular games - like Alganon, 4story, Forsaken world.

     

    But seriously - as far as AAA games go - "wow clone" is thrown about often - I can't think of a single AAA game that is an actual "WoW clone"

    Surely Rift was just about as close to a WoW clone as you could get, and it is still fairly popular. Then there is FF14ARR which is basically a reskinned WoW. But there is nothing particularly bad about that, those games used the proven game mechanics from WoW and have added their own twist to the formula.

     

    I guess "clone" is too strong of a word though, more like those games are heavily influenced by or derivative of WoW.

    ....
  • DominisiDominisi Age of Conan CorrespondentMember Posts: 95

    I would agree that the term WoW Clone gets thrown around too often, but when I hear it I assume it refers to a few pillars of 'main stream' MMOs:

    Trinity: Tank/DPS/Heals 99% of  'WoW Clones' have this, while older games DID have this, it wasn't nearly every one

    Best gear comes from dungeons/raids. At least the 'old school' MMOs that I played this wasn't the case,  like SWG, the best was player made, and decayed, which kept the player ran economy going.

    Lack of Non-Combat roles: I cant think of a single modern game (Originally developed in the past 10 years) that you can progress through the game doing non Combat things, EvE - you can do only industry, SWG, you could just be a Weapon smith. And I'm not talking about its the side thing your character does BESIDES combat, I'm talking the ONLY thing your player does.

    Simple Combat systems: Lots of MMO's now have more robust ones e.g. TERA/GW2 but for the most part 'modern" MMOs are the same tab targeting stuff, with set rotations/priorities. 

    Simple Character Skill Customization: Basically there is an optimal build for DPS/Tanking/Healing and there really isn't any variety in play styles because you need to do XYZ to your character and have these Best in slot items to maximize your performance. 

    Lack of customizable player housing: Pretty self explanatory 

    No open PvP period: Again, there are a few exceptions, but the vast majority of games don't have this option.

    Lack of meaningful open PvP goals: Most PvP in modern MMO's is broken down into Battle Grounds or arenas. 

    Being worthless until you are max level: For the majority of modern MMO's you basically have two stages, Leveling, and Max level. Very, very, very few allow you to do meaningful things that have any real impact during the leveling stage, and all of the content is catered to those who have hit max level and are looking for the next thing. Now this isn't bad if your grind is either unimportant or very quick, but there are some games (EvE, SWG) that allowed players to do meaningful things in between, or the "max level" is arbitrary (EvE) so you can do things at all stages. 

     

    Basically , WoW changed the way we looked at games, they were wildly successful, and companies have been taking the core pillars of what WoW did, and then expanding upon where they think it should go. The other styles are generally ignored despite their success because they weren't AS successful as World of Warcraft. 

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  • DominisiDominisi Age of Conan CorrespondentMember Posts: 95

    My previous post being said there are some diamonds out there:

     

    SWGEmu

    Age of Wushu

    EvE Online

     

    They are all plagued by their own problems, but they each either emulate (SWGEmu) or do something that isn't being done in a very unique way (EvE/Age of Wushu)

    image

  • laokokolaokoko Member UncommonPosts: 2,004

    you might think there are many wow clones.

    But judging by the mmorpg that gets shutdown during production, no one is even funding mmorpg.

    The studio that make wow and eve pull out their production on their last mmorpg.  That says a lot.  In favor of shooters, card game, MOBA that cost a fraction to make and makes much more money.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by YashaX

    Surely Rift was just about as close to a WoW clone as you could get, and it is still fairly popular. Then there is FF14ARR which is basically a reskinned WoW. But there is nothing particularly bad about that, those games used the proven game mechanics from WoW and have added their own twist to the formula. 

    I guess "clone" is too strong of a word though, more like those games are heavily influenced by or derivative of WoW.

    This post basically shows why things get called clones.  Many players are simply unable to discern the very significant differences between WOW, FFXIV, and RIFT.  Significant differences exist, yet these games are called clones.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699
    Now cue the poster who quotes the dictionary meaning of "clone"...

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • Ender4Ender4 Member UncommonPosts: 2,247


    Originally posted by DMKano
    How many "WoW clones" exist?

    I can think of couple popular ones - Allods and Runes of magic.

    Sure there are some lesser popular games - like Alganon, 4story, Forsaken world.

     

    But seriously - as far as AAA games go - "wow clone" is thrown about often - I can't think of a single AAA game that is an actual "WoW clone"


    RIFT, SWTOR, AION, WILDSTAR, DCUO etc. These are all basically the same game as WoW.


    Compare SB to WoW or SWG or UO or DAOC and you have completely different experiences. Most of the current games just play like WoW. Do quests, lobby dungeons, meaningless PvP in a box, end game is just a gear grind etc.

    People don't say clone as in exact copy, that is what this word means in this context. Just because you can't understand the usage of the word doesn't mean the usage is incorrect. Being purposely obtuse does not make your agument useful or intelligent.

  • vandal5627vandal5627 Member UncommonPosts: 788
    Originally posted by Ender4

     


    Originally posted by DMKano
    How many "WoW clones" exist?

     

    I can think of couple popular ones - Allods and Runes of magic.

    Sure there are some lesser popular games - like Alganon, 4story, Forsaken world.

     

    But seriously - as far as AAA games go - "wow clone" is thrown about often - I can't think of a single AAA game that is an actual "WoW clone"


     

    RIFT, SWTOR, AION, WILDSTAR, DCUO etc. These are all basically the same game as WoW.


    Compare SB to WoW or SWG or UO or DAOC and you have completely different experiences. Most of the current games just play like WoW. Do quests, lobby dungeons, meaningless PvP in a box, end game is just a gear grind etc.

    People don't say clone as in exact copy, that is what this word means in this context. Just because you can't understand the usage of the word doesn't mean the usage is incorrect. Being purposely obtuse does not make your agument useful or intelligent.

    Yup, they're all MMORPGs.  You going to tell me not all MMORPGs have some similarities?  By what you're saying, all MMORPGs are clones of each other.  Even your precious EQ.

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    To consider a game as a clone you need to consider intent, did the dev deliberately aim to design a fame just like wow but with a new skin and some new mechanics, or did the developer design a game with a world and story in mind, and apply mechanics that work well and may or may not be used in wow. Intent is key.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • OmiragOmirag Member UncommonPosts: 276
    This is just how the market has gone lately. Everything is just a 15 year old something with a new face. This is happening in the gaming industry as well as in the movie industry. Usually these industries are not as obvious about re-hashing old ideas, but I guess they just gave up and don't want to be original.

    image
  • Stone_FountainStone_Fountain Member UncommonPosts: 233
    Originally posted by kairel182
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by YashaX

    Surely Rift was just about as close to a WoW clone as you could get, and it is still fairly popular. Then there is FF14ARR which is basically a reskinned WoW. But there is nothing particularly bad about that, those games used the proven game mechanics from WoW and have added their own twist to the formula. 

    I guess "clone" is too strong of a word though, more like those games are heavily influenced by or derivative of WoW.

    This post basically shows why things get called clones.  Many players are simply unable to discern the very significant differences between WOW, FFXIV, and RIFT.  Significant differences exist, yet these games are called clones.

    Exactly - clone is a duplicate, an exact copy.

    There are games that were influenced or inspired by WoW, just like WoW was inspired and influenced by games like EQ1.

    But WoW is not an EQ1 clone, neither is FF14 a WoW clone.

     

    Are we really having this argument again?

     

    Of course it's not a carbon copy, that would be ludicrous and would smell slightly of a lawsuit.  We're talking about a clone of the same environment and playstyle.  They play exactly the same.  They operate exactly the same.  They focus on the exact same style of progression.  They offer the same combat system.

     

    The CLONING comes from the format, not the damn game itself.  You need to stop being pretentious and arguing just to argue.

    ^^ +1

    First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999

  • PepeqPepeq Member UncommonPosts: 1,977
    Originally posted by Kopogero

    What I find it so strange is how so many got blinded by WOW's success that they overlooked the other successful MMORPG's.
    In August 2005 SOE reported that they sold 1 mil copies of Star Wars Galaxies. Ultima Online on other hand also had 250,000 subscribers in March 2003. So, this is what puzzles me...the huge success of MMORPG's that did not follow WOW/Everquest formula existed.

    The MMORPG market 10-15 years was much much smaller compared to the last couple of years. I remember running Ultima Online and SWG on a Pentium III 1000 MHZ cpu with dial up connection....I mean I don't get it, outside of EVE which is a niche MMORPG (space and ships) no one brought a newer clone version of these games and I bet if they did they would see a huge success because they are completely different MMORPG's compared to the many many WOW clones that exist today plus of course WOW itself...

    Nobody wants a clone... oh sure they all say they want their old game back, but trust me, if they did clone it, you'd say to yourself... this has been done before.

     

    Stop using WoW as a reference... even WoW isn't the game it used to be.  Times have changed and the dinosaurs are now extinct.  Would you want to be a dinosaur in 2015?  Evolution called and said to wake up and smell the roses.

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495
    Originally posted by Ender4

     


    Originally posted by DMKano
    How many "WoW clones" exist?

     

    I can think of couple popular ones - Allods and Runes of magic.

    Sure there are some lesser popular games - like Alganon, 4story, Forsaken world.

     

    But seriously - as far as AAA games go - "wow clone" is thrown about often - I can't think of a single AAA game that is an actual "WoW clone"


     

    RIFT, SWTOR, AION, WILDSTAR, DCUO etc. These are all basically the same game as WoW.


    Compare SB to WoW or SWG or UO or DAOC and you have completely different experiences. Most of the current games just play like WoW. Do quests, lobby dungeons, meaningless PvP in a box, end game is just a gear grind etc.

    People don't say clone as in exact copy, that is what this word means in this context. Just because you can't understand the usage of the word doesn't mean the usage is incorrect. Being purposely obtuse does not make your agument useful or intelligent.

    I think it has more to do HOW people play their games. For example if a person jumps in any MMO, just runs up to a quest/mission giver, doesn't read but just skips to accept, runs over to X marks the spot and returns for his quest/mision reward and continues following this patern till end game then yeah sure I would understand why people call those games WoW clones because most likely they played WoW like that.

    Other then that I do not consider any of the games you posted to be the same as WoW unless it's played as I explained above.

    But hey that's just my opinion.......

     

     

  • vandal5627vandal5627 Member UncommonPosts: 788
    Originally posted by kairel182
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by YashaX

    Surely Rift was just about as close to a WoW clone as you could get, and it is still fairly popular. Then there is FF14ARR which is basically a reskinned WoW. But there is nothing particularly bad about that, those games used the proven game mechanics from WoW and have added their own twist to the formula. 

    I guess "clone" is too strong of a word though, more like those games are heavily influenced by or derivative of WoW.

    This post basically shows why things get called clones.  Many players are simply unable to discern the very significant differences between WOW, FFXIV, and RIFT.  Significant differences exist, yet these games are called clones.

    Exactly - clone is a duplicate, an exact copy.

    There are games that were influenced or inspired by WoW, just like WoW was inspired and influenced by games like EQ1.

    But WoW is not an EQ1 clone, neither is FF14 a WoW clone.

     

    Are we really having this argument again?

     

    Of course it's not a carbon copy, that would be ludicrous and would smell slightly of a lawsuit.  We're talking about a clone of the same environment and playstyle.  They play exactly the same.  They operate exactly the same.  They focus on the exact same style of progression.  They offer the same combat system.

     

    The CLONING comes from the format, not the damn game itself.  You need to stop being pretentious and arguing just to argue.

    So you level up, get gear, level up some more, get better gear, get max level, try to get better gear all in a fantasy world.  if you want to generalize, yup, every single MMORPG in existence is a clone.  I'm sure the one being pretentious here is you sir.

  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785

    There are lots of WoW "clones" only if you define "clone" as "worse in almost every single way" to the original, sure.

    That's really been the downfall of the "clones" or WoW-esque games. They make something, but they don't bother doing as good a job as WoW, and then they get moderate success or outright fail. Why copy something if you're not going to improve upon in some real way?

     

    As for the OP who tries to parade some fairly timid numbers about. SWG selling 1 million copies along with other pretty mundane sales figures is one of the main reasons critics were claiming PC gaming was going to die. PC game sales (outside of a few Blizzard titles) were really lackluster compared to what was happening on consoles, not to mention steam hadn't really taken off (came out in 2003).

    Just to contrast with how strong the console sales were, Halo sold 5 million copies over 2 years vs SWG 1 million. How many game studio, let alone investors, would look at that and think, "yeah, let's invest the next 3-5 years building this intricate world and then hope we can sell a million copies and have a percent of those people stay on as paying subs."

    "Huge success" is only in your mind. Were those games successful? Sure. But game development, as with any large scale project is a result of time and money invested. Producing a short 10 hour blockbuster takes a lot less than a huge MMO. Assassin's Creed Unity and Rogue- 10 million sales already (Assassin's Creed Black Flag by itself 10 million), Farcry 4- 7 million, Watch Dogs- 10 million. These games come out yearly! They also come with DLC purchases!

    It's really bizarre to look at history and try to envision a different path if something else had happened. The reality is, that those games were not appealing enough to continue building. But, because of WoW, now there is substantial market potential whereas MMO's were previously limited to us "basement dwellers."  Don't forget, there were A LOT of stigmas associated with being a PC gamer (astronomical compared to what you see now).

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by kairel182

    Are we really having this argument again? 

    Of course it's not a carbon copy, that would be ludicrous and would smell slightly of a lawsuit.  We're talking about a clone of the same environment and playstyle.  They play exactly the same.  They operate exactly the same.  They focus on the exact same style of progression.  They offer the same combat system. 

    The CLONING comes from the format, not the damn game itself.  You need to stop being pretentious and arguing just to argue.

    Maybe we could create a special term for this type of vague imitation.  Like "genre".

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Its much easier to be different when there are only a few examples. It's much harder when there are hundreds.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699
    Originally posted by Reklaw
    Originally posted by Ender4

     


    Originally posted by DMKano
    How many "WoW clones" exist?

     

    I can think of couple popular ones - Allods and Runes of magic.

    Sure there are some lesser popular games - like Alganon, 4story, Forsaken world.

     

    But seriously - as far as AAA games go - "wow clone" is thrown about often - I can't think of a single AAA game that is an actual "WoW clone"


     

    RIFT, SWTOR, AION, WILDSTAR, DCUO etc. These are all basically the same game as WoW.


    Compare SB to WoW or SWG or UO or DAOC and you have completely different experiences. Most of the current games just play like WoW. Do quests, lobby dungeons, meaningless PvP in a box, end game is just a gear grind etc.

    People don't say clone as in exact copy, that is what this word means in this context. Just because you can't understand the usage of the word doesn't mean the usage is incorrect. Being purposely obtuse does not make your agument useful or intelligent.

    I think it has more to do HOW people play their games. For example if a person jumps in any MMO, just runs up to a quest/mission giver, doesn't read but just skips to accept, runs over to X marks the spot and returns for his quest/mision reward and continues following this patern till end game then yeah sure I would understand why people call those games WoW clones because most likely they played WoW like that.

    Other then that I do not consider any of the games you posted to be the same as WoW unless it's played as I explained above.

    But hey that's just my opinion.......

    Are you saying the main difference between those games is the story behind them?

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,030
    Originally posted by Stone_Fountain
    Originally posted by kairel182
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by YashaX

    Surely Rift was just about as close to a WoW clone as you could get, and it is still fairly popular. Then there is FF14ARR which is basically a reskinned WoW. But there is nothing particularly bad about that, those games used the proven game mechanics from WoW and have added their own twist to the formula. 

    I guess "clone" is too strong of a word though, more like those games are heavily influenced by or derivative of WoW.

    This post basically shows why things get called clones.  Many players are simply unable to discern the very significant differences between WOW, FFXIV, and RIFT.  Significant differences exist, yet these games are called clones.

    Exactly - clone is a duplicate, an exact copy.

    There are games that were influenced or inspired by WoW, just like WoW was inspired and influenced by games like EQ1.

    But WoW is not an EQ1 clone, neither is FF14 a WoW clone.

     

    Are we really having this argument again?

     

    Of course it's not a carbon copy, that would be ludicrous and would smell slightly of a lawsuit.  We're talking about a clone of the same environment and playstyle.  They play exactly the same.  They operate exactly the same.  They focus on the exact same style of progression.  They offer the same combat system.

     

    The CLONING comes from the format, not the damn game itself.  You need to stop being pretentious and arguing just to argue.

    ^^ +1

    +1

    Seriously, stop splitting hairs just to avoid the truth.  I've enjoyed playing several games that are definitely WoW clones.  It's not ALWAYS a derogatory term.  I'm also not so delusional that I don't realize the differences between what I was playing and WoW are minimal at the best. 

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by Reklaw
    Originally posted by Ender4

     


    Originally posted by DMKano
    How many "WoW clones" exist?

     

    I can think of couple popular ones - Allods and Runes of magic.

    Sure there are some lesser popular games - like Alganon, 4story, Forsaken world.

     

    But seriously - as far as AAA games go - "wow clone" is thrown about often - I can't think of a single AAA game that is an actual "WoW clone"


     

    RIFT, SWTOR, AION, WILDSTAR, DCUO etc. These are all basically the same game as WoW.


    Compare SB to WoW or SWG or UO or DAOC and you have completely different experiences. Most of the current games just play like WoW. Do quests, lobby dungeons, meaningless PvP in a box, end game is just a gear grind etc.

    People don't say clone as in exact copy, that is what this word means in this context. Just because you can't understand the usage of the word doesn't mean the usage is incorrect. Being purposely obtuse does not make your agument useful or intelligent.

    I think it has more to do HOW people play their games. For example if a person jumps in any MMO, just runs up to a quest/mission giver, doesn't read but just skips to accept, runs over to X marks the spot and returns for his quest/mision reward and continues following this patern till end game then yeah sure I would understand why people call those games WoW clones because most likely they played WoW like that.

    Other then that I do not consider any of the games you posted to be the same as WoW unless it's played as I explained above.

    But hey that's just my opinion.......

    Are you saying the main difference between those games is the story behind them?

    No.

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