Originally posted by nbtscan The labor points thing is really a big turn-off for me. I don't like being limited in what I can do in a game, but I guess it being F2P they gotta make you spend money somehow.
Labor points existed in Korean version while it was a subscription only game without a cash shop. It's a core system in Archeage
It is a core system but does Trion really lack the ability to modify it? 1500 labor points might work in Korea but the game expectations there are very different from the western side of the world. They expect a game to have massive grinding and nickle-dime the crap out of you in the cash shop. Could Trion really not modify the labor system to generate at a faster rate for subbers?
The answer is - YES, Trion absolutely has this power. Sadly, they chose to restrict the generation of labor points to its current level. It was NOT this low in the beta. It was reduced for the launch as Trion felt they could earn more money by reducing it from the beta level. Being a core system in the game is no excuse for the restrictive labor point system as currently implemented.
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Originally posted by nbtscan The labor points thing is really a big turn-off for me. I don't like being limited in what I can do in a game, but I guess it being F2P they gotta make you spend money somehow.
Labor points makes complete sense. I understand your stampy feet rants against it but labor points can represent "man hours". You only have 24 man hours per day in the real world. Some of you players just want ezmode on too many things.
The amount of time it takes to say craft something is trivial in most video games. Click a button and mats turn into and item. Now imagine if you really wanted to forge a sword and how much time it would take. Imagine labor points as a way to simulate part of that experience.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by nbtscan The labor points thing is really a big turn-off for me. I don't like being limited in what I can do in a game, but I guess it being F2P they gotta make you spend money somehow.
Labor points existed in Korean version while it was a subscription only game without a cash shop. It's a core system in Archeage
It is a core system but does Trion really lack the ability to modify it? 1500 labor points might work in Korea but the game expectations there are very different from the western side of the world. They expect a game to have massive grinding and nickle-dime the crap out of you in the cash shop. Could Trion really not modify the labor system to generate at a faster rate for subbers?
The answer is - YES, Trion absolutely has this power. Sadly, they chose to restrict the generation of labor points to its current level. It was NOT this low in the beta. It was reduced for the launch as Trion felt they could earn more money by reducing it from the beta level. Being a core system in the game is no excuse for the restrictive labor point system as currently implemented.
I think you probably have that backward. Trion increased the amount of Labor Points for the Beta so that more testing could be done, they returned it to the 'normal' level for launch. Now it may be that level could do with some tuning upwards to improve players satisfaction but I do not think you should regard the testing level as 'normal'.
spend more time developing a quality game and less time trying to sell overpriced broken promises called alpha access. Oh and thats mostly a "western" practice, so i rather have a high quality Asian mmorpg without such practices than a western mmorpg that cares only about making a quick buck out of testers and release the game in the same broken state.
It doesnt matter where the game is coming from, quality is all that matters. High quality game from a high quality company.
spend more time developing a quality game and less time trying to sell overpriced broken promises called alpha access. Oh and thats mostly a "western" practice, so i rather have a high quality Asian mmorpg without such practices than a western mmorpg that cares only about making a quick buck out of testers and release the game in the same broken state.
It doesnt matter where the game is coming from, quality is all that matters. High quality game from a high quality company.
hahahaha....HAHAHAHAA....no.
There are 50x as many crap games coming out of Asia than the West. So many, there is no reason to even bother naming them.
And those are worse P2W cash grabs than anything coming from Western development houses... Even EA or SOE (and that is saying something).
Even with those two "hated" developers, once you pay a sub (or premium access or whatever), you get at least get access to all of the gameplay elements (not cosmetic elements) on an unlimited basis. (Not that those companies are "good" Western developers, they usually rank at the bottom of customer satisfaction.)
No real need to keep running to the cash shop just to play the game as intended, as opposed to AA and AoW before it, both cash grab, P2W, Asian grinders that have appeared recently, higher end than most but still nothing Western players would largely accept.
So, no.... even a high end Asian grinder is still an Asian grinder, and I (and a large majority of Western players) do not feel the need to "play" a game like a job and run to the cash shop every day for the privilege of doing so (and thus the HUGE population crashes on NA/EU servers).
So the most popular and most profitable MMOs around right now...
I'm not going to even cover what is popular/profitable in the East, as it's an entirely different beast out there. Lineage 1/2 are still mega huge over there, for example.
So in the West, you have WoW - still the king.
SWTOR - very profitable and popular F2P. Recently had another new xpac release.
GW2 - profitable and very popular B2P. New xpac coming 2015
FFXIV - profitable and popular east and west actually. new xpac 2015
ESO- probably doing pretty well, console release should do well for them too
Honorable mentions:
EvE - "old steady" not much year to growth, but stable, tons of updates, etc.
Rift - 4 years running, good F2P option, healthy population
Wildstar - not really sure how it's doing, but still chugging along I gather
The point?
You have a mix of B2P, P2P, and F2P.
A mix of fantasy and sci-fi.
A mix of huge name IPs and original IPs.
The payment model is not the problem. The genre is not the problem. The IP is not the problem.
The problem is quality.
Not just quality work, minor bugs, steady updates and fixes etc.
But quality design. Well thought out systems and gameplay.
ArcheAge just had none of that. The writing was all over the wall with how poorly the game did in the East. Trion was pretty stupid for picking this turd up and trying to help polish it for a Western release.
They should have gone after Blade & Soul or Black Dessert, if they were going to look for an Eastern MMO to Westernize.
So the most popular and most profitable MMOs around right now...
I'm not going to even cover what is popular/profitable in the East, as it's an entirely different beast out there. Lineage 1/2 are still mega huge over there, for example.
So in the West, you have WoW - still the king.
SWTOR - very profitable and popular F2P. Recently had another new xpac release.
GW2 - profitable and very popular B2P. New xpac coming 2015
FFXIV - profitable and popular east and west actually. new xpac 2015
ESO- probably doing pretty well, console release should do well for them too
Honorable mentions:
EvE - "old steady" not much year to growth, but stable, tons of updates, etc.
Rift - 4 years running, good F2P option, healthy population
Wildstar - not really sure how it's doing, but still chugging along I gather
The point?
You have a mix of B2P, P2P, and F2P.
A mix of fantasy and sci-fi.
A mix of huge name IPs and original IPs.
The payment model is not the problem. The genre is not the problem. The IP is not the problem.
The problem is quality.
Not just quality work, minor bugs, steady updates and fixes etc.
But quality design. Well thought out systems and gameplay.
ArcheAge just had none of that. The writing was all over the wall with how poorly the game did in the East. Trion was pretty stupid for picking this turd up and trying to help polish it for a Western release.
They should have gone after Blade & Soul or Black Dessert, if they were going to look for an Eastern MMO to Westernize.
Agreed.. the game was flawed from it's core... Design, implementation and execution all failed on a major scale.
Not just quality work, minor bugs, steady updates and fixes etc.
But quality design. Well thought out systems and gameplay.
ArcheAge just had none of that. The writing was all over the wall with how poorly the game did in the East. Trion was pretty stupid for picking this turd up and trying to help polish it for a Western release.
They should have gone after Blade & Soul or Black Dessert, if they were going to look for an Eastern MMO to Westernize.
Imo AA quality, based on your definition, its really high. Higher then most of other mmos mentioned in your post.
But thats me ofc. The desing of AA is the closest i can current get to what i want in a mmorpg, thats why for me is the best current released.
Have alot of "bad" things? yeah, but for me the good part winsl.
Hope the future bring more games like AA, with alot of improvements ofc.
And it would cost over 100mil to make still, no studio is going to risk that For a niche game
bullshit
no it wouldn't, the bulk cost for these 100+ million dollar mmos is advertising. If your droping that much money into advertising then your game is gonna make money(there is almost no risk)....hell you barely need a game in most cases.
also none of what he listed is resource intensive other then "more pve"(simply because he didn't list specifics).
remove ffa, leave faction pvp and add skill queue(mind boggling that it wasn't in the game) would only require a little modification of the existing code and a testing phase. better animations would require adding 1-2 people on the development team to focus solely on that.
the reason archeage hemorrhaged players was because
A) XL developed the game around the korean model.....p2w cash shops and client side security...these aspects just don't work in the western market. the game needed much more westernization and XL simply didn't want to fund it.
trion historically has been a lazy and uninspired developer(end of nations, defiance and the first rift expansion were all examples of this)....and that translated into being a lazy uninspired publisher.
A) XL developed the game around the korean model.....p2w cash shops and client side security...these aspects just don't work in the western market. the game needed much more westernization and XL simply didn't want to fund it.
trion historically has been a lazy and uninspired developer(end of nations, defiance and the first rift expansion were all examples of this)....and that translated into being a lazy uninspired publisher.
Attempting to debate DMK on anything related to AA is an exercise in futility. AA is perfection and simply beyond all forms of criticism as far as he is concerned. Realities like most servers being ghost towns after a few months due to anti-consumer cash shop practices are not relevant in his developer's FTP utopia.
FTP only works in short-session lobby games as long as they are not p2w. FTP mmos always turn out to be complete garbage since the only thing they care about developing more is the cash shop and they always eventually start selling power directly. When the only way to get people to play your game is to give it away for free you have FAILED in 99% of games.
Not just quality work, minor bugs, steady updates and fixes etc.
But quality design. Well thought out systems and gameplay.
ArcheAge just had none of that. The writing was all over the wall with how poorly the game did in the East. Trion was pretty stupid for picking this turd up and trying to help polish it for a Western release.
They should have gone after Blade & Soul or Black Dessert, if they were going to look for an Eastern MMO to Westernize.
Imo AA quality, based on your definition, its really high. Higher then most of other mmos mentioned in your post.
But thats me ofc. The desing of AA is the closest i can current get to what i want in a mmorpg, thats why for me is the best current released.
Have alot of "bad" things? yeah, but for me the good part winsl.
Hope the future bring more games like AA, with alot of improvements ofc.
Exactly,
none of the mentioned MMORPG's on that list by exception of EVE is a MMORPG by design standards.
None of them with seamless persistant world. All are terrible designed games.
They scripted instanced multiuser maps at best.
On the other side we have Archeage with great gameplay mechanics and rich MMORPG options, a persistant world, landmass and seamless sea.
Not just quality work, minor bugs, steady updates and fixes etc.
But quality design. Well thought out systems and gameplay.
ArcheAge just had none of that. The writing was all over the wall with how poorly the game did in the East. Trion was pretty stupid for picking this turd up and trying to help polish it for a Western release.
They should have gone after Blade & Soul or Black Dessert, if they were going to look for an Eastern MMO to Westernize.
Imo AA quality, based on your definition, its really high. Higher then most of other mmos mentioned in your post.
But thats me ofc. The desing of AA is the closest i can current get to what i want in a mmorpg, thats why for me is the best current released.
Have alot of "bad" things? yeah, but for me the good part winsl.
Hope the future bring more games like AA, with alot of improvements ofc.
Exactly,
none of the mentioned MMORPG's on that list by exception of EVE is a MMORPG by design standards.
None of them with seamless persistant world. All are terrible designed games.
They scripted instanced multiuser maps at best.
On the other side we have Archeage with great gameplay mechanics and rich MMORPG options, a persistant world, landmass and seamless sea.
The best MMORPG since 2005.
Too bad Trion shot themselves in the groin 5 times by including some of the worst game mechanics (labor points, RNG in crafting), the most blatant cash shop funneling in years (buy from the cash shop or you can't play like you want or end up grinding for years, literally), and a near complete inability to manage game play "quality of life" issues; namely that bots/spammers/hackers/cheaters run wild. (Plus terrible CS.)
So except for all that, sure, AA is a decent game.. :P.
I don't care where a game is made, east, west, north ,south, center; as long as the game is good.
Furthermore the P2P model doesn't necesarily mean less greed, a lot of devs get lazy after the first year or 2 and start giving less content, more copy/paste of the same stuff they done before and only introduce some real new content if you pay for an expansion which comes at the same price as the original game a few months after launch on top of the sub. So you basically pay monthly for the same old until you pay more to get more content.
Well the masses have spoken and apparently they prefer being tricked, by the cash shop offerings or the players manipulating them along with game mechanics that utilize it. So F2P's for everyone for the foreseeable future.
Well the masses have spoken and apparently they prefer being tricked, by the cash shop offerings or the players manipulating them along with game mechanics that utilize it. So F2P's for everyone for the foreseeable future.
Last time I checked, ArcheAge offers a sub option... always has. The game is what is flawed... not the payment model. People just use the payment model as an excuse... because they can. This game would have been no different if it were P2P from inception. You just like to believe it would have been.
A) XL developed the game around the korean model.....p2w cash shops and client side security...these aspects just don't work in the western market. the game needed much more westernization and XL simply didn't want to fund it.
trion historically has been a lazy and uninspired developer(end of nations, defiance and the first rift expansion were all examples of this)....and that translated into being a lazy uninspired publisher.
Attempting to debate DMK on anything related to AA is an exercise in futility. AA is perfection and simply beyond all forms of criticism as far as he is concerned. Realities like most servers being ghost towns after a few months due to anti-consumer cash shop practices are not relevant in his developer's FTP utopia.
FTP only works in short-session lobby games as long as they are not p2w. FTP mmos always turn out to be complete garbage since the only thing they care about developing more is the cash shop and they always eventually start selling power directly. When the only way to get people to play your game is to give it away for free you have FAILED in 99% of games.
AA is nowhere near perfection - the game is deeply flawed in several aspects , so I am not sure what you are on about.
Hunh. That's new. I don't recall you ever acknowledging a single flaw regarding AA in past threads. Did you have a recent revelation/realization about things recently, did a new update change something, or was it just that none of the things you considered to be AA's deep flaws were ever brought up before in the myriad of threads about the game?
(as an aside, far as I can tell, AA would have been hugely flawed even without the cash shop problems. The monetization problems were just so bad that people were focused on them instead of the other problems with the game, like the meaningless of the PvP where death is a slap on the wrist and you can't really control any territories except castle sieges that only take place rarely and only a few people get to participate in, the fact that trade routes don't keep up with inflation resulting in a huge aspect of the game becoming meaningless and not worth the time as the economy develops, PvP that's based on Crowd Control even when there isn't a huge gear difference, RNG crafting that's ridiculously luck-based and much worse than it sounds, generally boring PvE with little PvE content, etc etc etc. Some of them wouldn't be bad by themselves given what the game is supposed to be but when you have little PvE content AND meaningless PvP, you're basically a sandbox with no sand, no tools, and a really small box!)
Comments
It is a core system but does Trion really lack the ability to modify it? 1500 labor points might work in Korea but the game expectations there are very different from the western side of the world. They expect a game to have massive grinding and nickle-dime the crap out of you in the cash shop. Could Trion really not modify the labor system to generate at a faster rate for subbers?
The answer is - YES, Trion absolutely has this power. Sadly, they chose to restrict the generation of labor points to its current level. It was NOT this low in the beta. It was reduced for the launch as Trion felt they could earn more money by reducing it from the beta level. Being a core system in the game is no excuse for the restrictive labor point system as currently implemented.
Labor points makes complete sense. I understand your stampy feet rants against it but labor points can represent "man hours". You only have 24 man hours per day in the real world. Some of you players just want ezmode on too many things.
The amount of time it takes to say craft something is trivial in most video games. Click a button and mats turn into and item. Now imagine if you really wanted to forge a sword and how much time it would take. Imagine labor points as a way to simulate part of that experience.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I think you probably have that backward. Trion increased the amount of Labor Points for the Beta so that more testing could be done, they returned it to the 'normal' level for launch. Now it may be that level could do with some tuning upwards to improve players satisfaction but I do not think you should regard the testing level as 'normal'.
spend more time developing a quality game and less time trying to sell overpriced broken promises called alpha access. Oh and thats mostly a "western" practice, so i rather have a high quality Asian mmorpg without such practices than a western mmorpg that cares only about making a quick buck out of testers and release the game in the same broken state.
It doesnt matter where the game is coming from, quality is all that matters. High quality game from a high quality company.
hahahaha....HAHAHAHAA....no.
There are 50x as many crap games coming out of Asia than the West. So many, there is no reason to even bother naming them.
And those are worse P2W cash grabs than anything coming from Western development houses... Even EA or SOE (and that is saying something).
Even with those two "hated" developers, once you pay a sub (or premium access or whatever), you get at least get access to all of the gameplay elements (not cosmetic elements) on an unlimited basis. (Not that those companies are "good" Western developers, they usually rank at the bottom of customer satisfaction.)
No real need to keep running to the cash shop just to play the game as intended, as opposed to AA and AoW before it, both cash grab, P2W, Asian grinders that have appeared recently, higher end than most but still nothing Western players would largely accept.
So, no.... even a high end Asian grinder is still an Asian grinder, and I (and a large majority of Western players) do not feel the need to "play" a game like a job and run to the cash shop every day for the privilege of doing so (and thus the HUGE population crashes on NA/EU servers).
Remove FFA,
leave Faction PvP
and add Skill Queue
better animations
more PvE,
yeah that could be a pretty good game.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
So the most popular and most profitable MMOs around right now...
I'm not going to even cover what is popular/profitable in the East, as it's an entirely different beast out there. Lineage 1/2 are still mega huge over there, for example.
So in the West, you have WoW - still the king.
SWTOR - very profitable and popular F2P. Recently had another new xpac release.
GW2 - profitable and very popular B2P. New xpac coming 2015
FFXIV - profitable and popular east and west actually. new xpac 2015
ESO- probably doing pretty well, console release should do well for them too
Honorable mentions:
EvE - "old steady" not much year to growth, but stable, tons of updates, etc.
Rift - 4 years running, good F2P option, healthy population
Wildstar - not really sure how it's doing, but still chugging along I gather
The point?
You have a mix of B2P, P2P, and F2P.
A mix of fantasy and sci-fi.
A mix of huge name IPs and original IPs.
The payment model is not the problem. The genre is not the problem. The IP is not the problem.
The problem is quality.
Not just quality work, minor bugs, steady updates and fixes etc.
But quality design. Well thought out systems and gameplay.
ArcheAge just had none of that. The writing was all over the wall with how poorly the game did in the East. Trion was pretty stupid for picking this turd up and trying to help polish it for a Western release.
They should have gone after Blade & Soul or Black Dessert, if they were going to look for an Eastern MMO to Westernize.
Agreed.. the game was flawed from it's core... Design, implementation and execution all failed on a major scale.
Imo AA quality, based on your definition, its really high. Higher then most of other mmos mentioned in your post.
But thats me ofc. The desing of AA is the closest i can current get to what i want in a mmorpg, thats why for me is the best current released.
Have alot of "bad" things? yeah, but for me the good part winsl.
Hope the future bring more games like AA, with alot of improvements ofc.
bullshit
no it wouldn't, the bulk cost for these 100+ million dollar mmos is advertising. If your droping that much money into advertising then your game is gonna make money(there is almost no risk)....hell you barely need a game in most cases.
also none of what he listed is resource intensive other then "more pve"(simply because he didn't list specifics).
remove ffa, leave faction pvp and add skill queue(mind boggling that it wasn't in the game) would only require a little modification of the existing code and a testing phase. better animations would require adding 1-2 people on the development team to focus solely on that.
the reason archeage hemorrhaged players was because
A) XL developed the game around the korean model.....p2w cash shops and client side security...these aspects just don't work in the western market. the game needed much more westernization and XL simply didn't want to fund it.
Attempting to debate DMK on anything related to AA is an exercise in futility. AA is perfection and simply beyond all forms of criticism as far as he is concerned. Realities like most servers being ghost towns after a few months due to anti-consumer cash shop practices are not relevant in his developer's FTP utopia.
FTP only works in short-session lobby games as long as they are not p2w. FTP mmos always turn out to be complete garbage since the only thing they care about developing more is the cash shop and they always eventually start selling power directly. When the only way to get people to play your game is to give it away for free you have FAILED in 99% of games.
Exactly,
none of the mentioned MMORPG's on that list by exception of EVE is a MMORPG by design standards.
None of them with seamless persistant world. All are terrible designed games.
They scripted instanced multiuser maps at best.
On the other side we have Archeage with great gameplay mechanics and rich MMORPG options, a persistant world, landmass and seamless sea.
The best MMORPG since 2005.
Too bad Trion shot themselves in the groin 5 times by including some of the worst game mechanics (labor points, RNG in crafting), the most blatant cash shop funneling in years (buy from the cash shop or you can't play like you want or end up grinding for years, literally), and a near complete inability to manage game play "quality of life" issues; namely that bots/spammers/hackers/cheaters run wild. (Plus terrible CS.)
So except for all that, sure, AA is a decent game.. :P.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however the vast majority of the MMO player base would certainly disagree with you.
As would pretty much all reviews from credible sources, as well as methods of measuring both financial success and popularity.
MMORPG.com gave it a 73/100. Places like IGN, Gametrailers, and Gamespot didn't even review it...
I don't care where a game is made, east, west, north ,south, center; as long as the game is good.
Furthermore the P2P model doesn't necesarily mean less greed, a lot of devs get lazy after the first year or 2 and start giving less content, more copy/paste of the same stuff they done before and only introduce some real new content if you pay for an expansion which comes at the same price as the original game a few months after launch on top of the sub. So you basically pay monthly for the same old until you pay more to get more content.
Oh you mean a sub game?
Well the masses have spoken and apparently they prefer being tricked, by the cash shop offerings or the players manipulating them along with game mechanics that utilize it. So F2P's for everyone for the foreseeable future.
Last time I checked, ArcheAge offers a sub option... always has. The game is what is flawed... not the payment model. People just use the payment model as an excuse... because they can. This game would have been no different if it were P2P from inception. You just like to believe it would have been.
Hunh. That's new. I don't recall you ever acknowledging a single flaw regarding AA in past threads. Did you have a recent revelation/realization about things recently, did a new update change something, or was it just that none of the things you considered to be AA's deep flaws were ever brought up before in the myriad of threads about the game?
(as an aside, far as I can tell, AA would have been hugely flawed even without the cash shop problems. The monetization problems were just so bad that people were focused on them instead of the other problems with the game, like the meaningless of the PvP where death is a slap on the wrist and you can't really control any territories except castle sieges that only take place rarely and only a few people get to participate in, the fact that trade routes don't keep up with inflation resulting in a huge aspect of the game becoming meaningless and not worth the time as the economy develops, PvP that's based on Crowd Control even when there isn't a huge gear difference, RNG crafting that's ridiculously luck-based and much worse than it sounds, generally boring PvE with little PvE content, etc etc etc. Some of them wouldn't be bad by themselves given what the game is supposed to be but when you have little PvE content AND meaningless PvP, you're basically a sandbox with no sand, no tools, and a really small box!)