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MMO + Macros YES or NO - Statistics

Just finished a debate on Gw2 forums regarding macros. Lets see how you feel? Please Answer with Agree or Disagree(+arguments if any)

  1. Macroing is different from botting or hacking.
  2. Macros cannot make an inefficient gamer, efficient.
  3. Macroing alters only personal game experience.
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Comments

  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329

    MACROS - NO.

     

    1. Macros are no diffrent than bots.  Actually bots are just a subtype of a macro.  Nothing more or less.

    2. Macros give an advantage.  Good player without macros can beat bad player with macros,  but that is not the comparision. Comparisions should be made with players that posses same amount of skill and against same skilled players one without macros will be at disadvantage vs same skilled player with macros.

    3. Nothing affect only personal game experience in MMOs.  

     

     

  • ichihaifuichihaifu Member UncommonPosts: 280

    1. True - botting is entirely automated process, macros have to be started by user and can only last for so long

    2. False - macros reduce the amount of keys you have to remember or effectively use at any given time

    3. False - macros improve team results in overall scale

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236

     

  • PurutzilPurutzil Member UncommonPosts: 3,048

    Macros: Depends

     

    1.) Agree, given the basic form of macroing it is a LOT different then a bot. You can claim a macro is just a primitive form of botting, but given what they usually are I feel they aren't really any different.

    2.) Disagree, They can make a bad player better... but they also can take out tedium that exists. Games that have a LOT of different abilities can be improved greatly having it macroed onto a single key. Abilities with Cool downs take a space that can be saved by combining keys to it. So long as its a '1 press = 1 skill used' idea, I feel there is nothing wrong with it. Abilities off GCD (global Cool Down) I am okay with working as well at the same time, though I lean at having it using only 1 skill at a time.

    3.) Agree. It only effects the player using it. For the most part it just an make things less easy or less tedius when it comes to games with a ton of abilities. It can broadly effect it making non macro players have a disadvantage against macros, though if the tools are available to everyone easily (aka in game) and the macro has a limited function primarily to ease down the number of keys you need to use basic abilities to a reasonable amount, I see it having no real advantage. 

  • PepeqPepeq Member UncommonPosts: 1,977
    Originally posted by KJ30

    Just finished a debate on Gw2 forums regarding macros. Lets see how you feel? Please Answer with Agree or Disagree(+arguments if any)

    1. Macroing is different from botting or hacking.
    2. Macros cannot make an inefficient gamer, efficient.
    3. Macroing alters only personal game experience.

    LOL, if macros were useless, no one would use them...

     

    Getting the pet chicken from Westfall in WoW is infinitely easier with a macro than by keyboard.

     

    I still remember the Lady Vashj fight macro... "YOU HAVE THE CORE!!!"... "YOU HAVE THE CORE!!!"

     

    Macros have a place and actually make the game more entertaining.

     

     

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,793

    Well - I didnt liked how that was done in Vanguard.

    The basic mechanism was you couldnt do more than one ability that would involve global cooldown. There was also no "if" clause or anything, so you couldnt automatize that either. So far that was quite okay.

     

    But after a while I found out that some actions, or depending upon class actually quite a lot of them, would actually be instant with no downtime. Well, the moment I found that out, my efficiency downright *exploded*. But it also meant that depending upon class, you had to write a LOT of macros. And edit them at every levelup, and often also when your gear changed.

    And all this was UNAVOIDABLE in order to be efficient !!!

    I dont like the idea that you have to be forced to write macros. I'd rather have a system in which I have to think which button to press next, instead of mashing the same sequence of macro buttons or worse even just a single button.

    For example in the end my Dread Knight hardly had a single button left that wasnt a macro. And yes thanks to that he was great at tanking (it was in the late phase of the game, when finally they gave Dread Knight some love and they became about as good at tanking as Paladin and Warrior, or at least a lot closer than before).

    Plus of course macros would often contain an error, like a missing letter. If you have douzens of them, each with many lines, thats actually easy to miss.

    Plus macros would often stop working for no apparent reason.

    Plus macros wouldnt show refresh anymore, not even the general, global refresh. So you couldnt see when the ability was available again.

    Plus macros would be limited in length, which actually became quite an issue with the number of abilities my Dread Knight had. It meant for example there was no way to have a macro that would switch all gear worn. That would have been just far too long text.

    Plus there was no way to have subroutines, so if you wanted to use the free cast on a staff, you would have to edit EVERY SINGLE of your macros to add the exact name of exactly that staff, and yes Vanguard didnt support copy+paste. AAAAARG, the memory.

    Plus macros would not work if you would, how did they call that again ? Level down to help newbies. All your macros would stop working and it was a major PITA. Main reason I didnt liked that mechanism.

     

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Sulaa

    MACROS - NO.

    1. Macros are no diffrent than bots.  Actually bots are just a subtype of a macro.  Nothing more or less.

    2. Macros give an advantage.  Good player without macros can beat bad player with macros,  but that is not the comparision. Comparisions should be made with players that posses same amount of skill and against same skilled players one without macros will be at disadvantage vs same skilled player with macros.

    3. Nothing affect only personal game experience in MMOs.   

    Agreed.  (Although I might tone back the last statement a little.)

    I play games to play games, not to have a script play them for me. 

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329
    Originally posted by ichihaifu

    1. True - botting is entirely automated process, macros have to be started by user and can only last for so long

    Bots starts on their own?   Does it happen randomly to every MMO player?   I never had bot taking over and playing my character in any MMO.

     

    What we call "bots" or "macros"  is just a name for same thing - a script.   

    Trying to differentiate between two of them is bound to fall to subjectiveness - is it about how complicated it is?  how long it operates once you start it?   what action is it used on?   Who decides what is "only" a macro and what is "already" a bot?   Some sort of commision? 

     

    Good MMO design leave all players both without ability and need to use macros for gameplay.

    btw. Same goes for add-ons. 

  • thinktank001thinktank001 Member UncommonPosts: 2,144
    Originally posted by KJ30

    Just finished a debate on Gw2 forums regarding macros. Lets see how you feel? Please Answer with Agree or Disagree(+arguments if any)

    1. Macroing is different from botting or hacking.
    2. Macros cannot make an inefficient gamer, efficient.
    3. Macroing alters only personal game experience.

     

    If the system isn't built into the game, then it is just straight up cheating.

  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    Originally posted by Pepeq
    Originally posted by KJ30

    Just finished a debate on Gw2 forums regarding macros. Lets see how you feel? Please Answer with Agree or Disagree(+arguments if any)

    1. Macroing is different from botting or hacking.
    2. Macros cannot make an inefficient gamer, efficient.
    3. Macroing alters only personal game experience.

    LOL, if macros were useless, no one would use them...

     

    Getting the pet chicken from Westfall in WoW is infinitely easier with a macro than by keyboard.

     

    I still remember the Lady Vashj fight macro... "YOU HAVE THE CORE!!!"... "YOU HAVE THE CORE!!!"

     

    Macros have a place and actually make the game more entertaining.

     

     

    Macros make the game more easy for that particular player as he probably would fail when not using one or quit being bored.

    In that way it is the same as using a bot, as that does take effort away from the player who is not willing to play the way it was meant.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • KJ30KJ30 Member Posts: 47

    Here is my opinion. I agree with all 3 statements.

    1. Even though Botting seems to be a subgroup of Macroing, it is not the same. Playing unattended is not the same with spamming a rotation by pressing one button. I believe we all agree on hacking(using external tool to gain extra powers)

    2. A bad player will still be a bad player even if he uses macros. Macros have advantages but also disadvantages and mastering a game requires same amount of time , with macros or without. The gameplay equation has far more important parameters, and these define whether you are a good player(skills, equipmennt, character setup, correct use - timing...etc). No matter how macro rotations you use, good players will kick your ass without macros.

    3. Macroing affects only personal gameplay(as long as it is not BOTTING or HACKING).

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,727
    Depends on the macro. Game design that has me hitting the same key over and over again. Often I will make a macro over wearing out my keyboard. Same thing with steps I take over and over. Like in WoW on my hunter. My attack keys all macro to also send my pet to attack. Thats fine, but when you chain many skills together and the macro is playing for you. Thats when you have crossed a line. 
  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437

    I think it's unavoidable, my Roccat mouse can do anything and record any macro or action I want.

    You can't rewind technology, so games have to be careful it doesn't become a spam fest, sadly that's what most action MMO are.

  • HowbadisbadHowbadisbad Member UncommonPosts: 453

    A macro is nothing like a bot, if you have ever botted in a game you would know this.

    Macros are completely fine in my book, an optimal rotation is really just artificial difficulty that bars users from entry in most tab target MMOs.

    Macros have the weakness of not being adaptable for complex situations, this is why macros will never take the place of someone who knows their combo and what to do in various situations where their combo is not happening in the correct way due to boss mechanics or w/e.

    tl;dr

    If amatseru is falling out of your Doom bnb you as a player have to know how to fix that, a macro can't do that for you.

    Waiting for:
    The Repopulation
    Albion Online

  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699

    In mmorpg's, I personally don't use macros but I don't care if other players choose to.  I don't know why you would want to though.  They don't require any complex motions or precise timing.  All you're doing is avoiding wear and tear on the keyboard / mouse.

    People who macro or use turbo in fighting games do annoy me.  Blanka players in USF4 are notorious for this.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Originally posted by KJ30

    Just finished a debate on Gw2 forums regarding macros. Lets see how you feel? Please Answer with Agree or Disagree(+arguments if any)

    1. Macroing is different from botting or hacking.
    2. Macros cannot make an inefficient gamer, efficient.
    3. Macroing alters only personal game experience.

    How are you going to stop any kind of automation?

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Howbadisbad

    Macros are completely fine in my book, an optimal rotation is really just artificial difficulty that bars users from entry in most tab target MMOs.

    It's not artificial.  It actually does require skill (good decision-making and perfect execution of those decisions) to execute a rotation flawlessly.  So it actually is difficult.

    Failure to land 100% headshots "bars entry" to FPSes for a lot of players.  But the fact is, the skill of manually achieving these difficult accomplishments is what makes games interesting.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Howbadisbad

    Macros are completely fine in my book, an optimal rotation is really just artificial difficulty that bars users from entry in most tab target MMOs.

    It's not artificial.  It actually does require skill (good decision-making and perfect execution of those decisions) to execute a rotation flawlessly.  So it actually is difficult.

    Failure to land 100% headshots "bars entry" to FPSes for a lot of players.  But the fact is, the skill of manually achieving these difficult accomplishments is what makes games interesting.

    Yup, that's how it is.. Well very said.

     

    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    I think it's unavoidable, my Roccat mouse can do anything and record any macro or action I want.

    You can't rewind technology, so games have to be careful it doesn't become a spam fest, sadly that's what most action MMO are.

    Yup. Only effective solution to limit cheating greatly  is at hardware level.

    So that rules out PC and Windows in their current shape. Same goes for Mac and Linux.  Even current consoles while much more cheat proof are not really designed with that in mind.

     

    It would have to be controlled at minimum by combination of some hardware security chip and closed purely-for-gaming gaming OS and at more secure scenario by complete closed hardware ecosystem (console) with cheat prevenion design from ground up.

     

    Some say that games streaming may limit cheating, but that is not a solution because a) it only limits selected types of cheating not preventing other types at all   b) there is latency issue that will prevent full-scale replacement of home hardware (PC, consoless) and latency issue will not get fixed because physics

     

    Cheating issue (taking all very diffrent kinds of it) will only get worse as online gaming matures and it will become more and more of a problem.

    This issue will get mainstream attention once more and more players will realize that F2P Lobby games (like MOBAs) are getting more and more polluted by that.

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Macros indicate problematic gameplay where 'rotations' and MaximisIng clicks is more important than reactive play. Tends to tie in with heavily metered games where pleasure is gained from being no1 on some dps/hps score chart.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • PepeqPepeq Member UncommonPosts: 1,977
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by Pepeq
    Originally posted by KJ30

    Just finished a debate on Gw2 forums regarding macros. Lets see how you feel? Please Answer with Agree or Disagree(+arguments if any)

    1. Macroing is different from botting or hacking.
    2. Macros cannot make an inefficient gamer, efficient.
    3. Macroing alters only personal game experience.

    LOL, if macros were useless, no one would use them...

     

    Getting the pet chicken from Westfall in WoW is infinitely easier with a macro than by keyboard.

     

    I still remember the Lady Vashj fight macro... "YOU HAVE THE CORE!!!"... "YOU HAVE THE CORE!!!"

     

    Macros have a place and actually make the game more entertaining.

     

     

    Macros make the game more easy for that particular player as he probably would fail when not using one or quit being bored.

    In that way it is the same as using a bot, as that does take effort away from the player who is not willing to play the way it was meant.

    I'm guessing you typed all that out in chat instead of doing it the easy way...

     

    Kick so and so because he's too slow to notify the person he threw the core too.  Yeah, too lazy to make a macro.  Boot him.

  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,521

    I think it depends what kind of macroing you can do.

    Some things, like sending your pet to attack automatically when you use your normal opening skill, should be allowed because they make the gameplay so much more convenient. Forcing players to press extra keys to complete desired action doesn't give any additional gameplay value, it's just tedious.

    On the other hand if you can have a macro spamming multiple skills and activating the first one on list that you can use, then I think it's no better than hacking.

    Tab-targeting games are mostly about making tactical choices in real-time. A macro shouldn't be able to eliminate the need for you to observe the situation and make any of those choices, but I think when you know what abilities you want to execute and when you should be able to make it conveniently with a macro.

     
  • ichihaifuichihaifu Member UncommonPosts: 280
    Originally posted by Sulaa
    Originally posted by ichihaifu

    1. True - botting is entirely automated process, macros have to be started by user and can only last for so long

    Bots starts on their own?   Does it happen randomly to every MMO player?   I never had bot taking over and playing my character in any MMO.

     [..]

    Good MMO design leave all players both without ability and need to use macros for gameplay.

    btw. Same goes for add-ons. 

    Please do some research on "bots" before you claim they are the same as macros. Bot is too common term today, even wikipedia states too many different types of bots. I am referring to Bot as AI.

    Also your second argument is personal preference, others (like me) enjoy having additional things at our disposal compared to the vanilla experience game offers, with the expense of a bit of DIY tinkering.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437

    Macroing with a mouse became really important in EQ, around when WoW came out you strated to have mice that were really good at macro and you could change the macro so there was 0.001 second of delay between abilities.

    And I have never seen a game where this was as important as in EQ.

    In EQ your abilities stack exponentially. You have a shaman epic that give +200% to crit, then you launch a crit disc, then you have an expendable AA giving you +400 to crit, etc.

    You go from 1000 DPS to maybe 6000 DPS for a couple of seconds.

    But all those abilities only last for 10 to 30 seconds, with 30 minutes or hours of cooldown.

    Someone who "CLICKS" can at best chain them together for 1 second overlap.

    Someone who macros and can set off all abilities at once, gets the full 10 seconds of burst DPS.

    And that person will do 10 times the DPS as a clicker. Clickers tended to be much worse DPS in EQ than ppl who set up macros, either in game, but even better, with a mouse, because a mouse allowed you to set 0.001 delays between click, basically giving you 100% of your burst potential.

     

    Around the TSS expansion, EQ became a really DPS focused raid game. It was no longer about managing the raid, but more and more about who could optimise their DPS as to not even having to deal with any of the raid mechanics. If the raid mob launched his AE after 1 minute, but you managed to kill it in 50 seconds, the raid became a piece of cake for your guild. Macroing was really important in that, timing everything together so everyone could burst optimally, I remember spending days with recruits checking parses if all of their abilities were launching within one second, helping them set up their macros and mice. The guilds that could burn the most in those 30 seconds would win most of the raids.

    It's not cheating though,it's just about learning the game mechanics, understanding how to min max everything, understanding what makes some guilds beat all raids and what makes others not, everyone who micromanaged those things deserved to win.

  • PemminPemmin Member UncommonPosts: 623
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    Macroing with a mouse became really important in EQ, around when WoW came out you strated to have mice that were really good at macro and you could change the macro so there was 0.001 second of delay between abilities.

    And I have never seen a game where this was as important as in EQ.

    In EQ your abilities stack exponentially. You have a shaman epic that give +200% to crit, then you launch a crit disc, then you have an expendable AA giving you +400 to crit, etc.

    You go from 1000 DPS to maybe 6000 DPS for a couple of seconds.

    But all those abilities only last for 10 to 30 seconds, with 30 minutes or hours of cooldown.

    Someone who "CLICKS" can at best chain them together for 1 second overlap.

    Someone who macros and can set off all abilities at once, gets the full 10 seconds of burst DPS.

    And that person will do 10 times the DPS as a clicker. Clickers tended to be much worse DPS in EQ than ppl who set up macros, either in game, but even better, with a mouse, because a mouse allowed you to set 0.001 delays between click, basically giving you 100% of your burst potential.

     

    thats a really bad example due to the technology being relatively new at the time. most mmos these days won't allow you to activate multiple skills at the same time(they have built in ability que systems)..... most mmos now would still require you to click a button 5 times regardless.

    basically depends on the macro type and the game in question. macroing generally doesn't really give an advantage instead are just more convenience and keyboard space. like macroing crafting in FFXIV ARR. 

    they only get really abusive when they are combined with other addons. an example would be in an arena setting where  a radial macro that targets your enemy gets there lvl health class and buff information without having to actually physically see them or target then uploads it to your targeting UI.

     

  • evdaezevdaez Member UncommonPosts: 131
    Originally posted by KJ30

    Just finished a debate on Gw2 forums regarding macros. Lets see how you feel? Please Answer with Agree or Disagree(+arguments if any)

    1. Macroing is different from botting or hacking.
    2. Macros cannot make an inefficient gamer, efficient.
    3. Macroing alters only personal game experience.

    I'll just use wow as an example of why i used macros.

    Targeting system in wow is kinda in-efficient, the reason i use macros.

    Lets says im in a 2v2 match where enemy healer is number one on the enemy party list while enemy dps is on number 2.

    I played a monk and somehow my dps is bursting on the enemy dps and i need to cc the enemy healer asap.

    If i dont have a macro i would have to personally select `arena1` if i have it keybinded, tab button(inefficient) or manually selecting the target(the worse that i could think of.

    Instead if i use this simple piece of macro:

    /cast [target=arena1] paralyze

    I would simply need to be in range of the enemy healer and i am able to do that and heal my dps at the same time WITHOUT changing my target.

    Let me expand on the above example.

    I am in a 3s match and somehow my 2nd dps is in trouble i need to cc enemy dps number 2.

    If i did not have any macro, what i will do is to manually select enemy dps or tab target(inefficient), paralyze him and manually select or tab target my dps with low health and life cocoon him.

    With a simple macro like

    /cast [target=arena2] paralyze

    and

    /cast [target=party1] life cocoon

    i am able to cc one enemy dps, protect my dps from getting burst down and heal another of my dps who is pounding the enemy.

    In PVP, I do not have the luxury of time to manually click or tab target and every single second matters.

    The reason there is macro is to `get` around this inefficient tab targetting system.

    To say that macro is the same as botting is kinda extreme. Its not simply an answer of true or false.

    In wow pvp(arenas specfically) , where every second matters, macro is not simply a personal experience. It is a deciding factor whether you win or lose a match ONLY on the condition that you `know what you are doing` and you `know how to play a class` because a noob who have all the macros in the world cant simply a match just because he has tons of macros.

     

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