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So... A retrospective of the last 10 years of PvP focused MMORPGs... Where has it brought us?

2

Comments

  • SelzyrSelzyr Member UncommonPosts: 60
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Selzyr
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Selzyr
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by muffins89

     


    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Originally posted by muffins89 where were we to begin with?
     

     

    I guess that's subjective.

    So far, I am feeling that i am discussing this with posters that have never known any different than the last decade that I am questioning.

    And, ofc, those folks are emotionally defending the thing that they know, so meaningful conversation is a kind of dead there.

     

    I guess i can only refer you back to the OP.


     

    I know you specifically named MMORPG's in the thread title. but video games have always been competitive. who can get the highest score? who can get to the end first? that's pvp.

     

    No, that's a bad stretching of the term 'PvP'...

    Comparing high scores, or even achievements, is not the definition of PvP.

    But we both know that, right?

    that's how the game should be played? isn't the PvE community as toxic or worse then the PvP one?

    No, it didn't used to be. And that's the point. We aren't talking about where we are now, we are talking about where the journey that the we have traveled. This isn't a discussion of current PvP Vs. PvE... Because the PvP/ MOBA mentality has thoroughly infected the PvE culture to the extent where they are now the same thing.

    There have always been asshats, sure, but that, again, isn't the point.

    In the end of all this, the problem ISN'T PvP, ITS THE FUCKING PLAYER BASE AND THE COMMUNITIES OF MMORPGS IN GENERAL.

    Wow, you're emotional... No need to get all shouty friend, it's just us talking.

    you never played UO? how the heck you can say that the PvP community wasn't toxic even at the start? 

     

    You seem to be missing the point.

     

     

    am I? or your the one that doesn't have any ground to posting at all about this subject?

    Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. And the more you know Insanity, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. But I can tell you that only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Member UncommonPosts: 2,377

    MMO development as it relates to pvp...captured in one word.......................

     

    TIMIDITY

    and as they should those game companies have been punished...though I would argue not nearly enough.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,900
    Originally posted by Selzyr
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Selzyr
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Selzyr
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by muffins89

     


    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Originally posted by muffins89 where were we to begin with?
     

     

    I guess that's subjective.

    So far, I am feeling that i am discussing this with posters that have never known any different than the last decade that I am questioning.

    And, ofc, those folks are emotionally defending the thing that they know, so meaningful conversation is a kind of dead there.

     

    I guess i can only refer you back to the OP.


     

    I know you specifically named MMORPG's in the thread title. but video games have always been competitive. who can get the highest score? who can get to the end first? that's pvp.

     

    No, that's a bad stretching of the term 'PvP'...

    Comparing high scores, or even achievements, is not the definition of PvP.

    But we both know that, right?

    that's how the game should be played? isn't the PvE community as toxic or worse then the PvP one?

    No, it didn't used to be. And that's the point. We aren't talking about where we are now, we are talking about where the journey that the we have traveled. This isn't a discussion of current PvP Vs. PvE... Because the PvP/ MOBA mentality has thoroughly infected the PvE culture to the extent where they are now the same thing.

    There have always been asshats, sure, but that, again, isn't the point.

    In the end of all this, the problem ISN'T PvP, ITS THE FUCKING PLAYER BASE AND THE COMMUNITIES OF MMORPGS IN GENERAL.

    Wow, you're emotional... No need to get all shouty friend, it's just us talking.

    you never played UO? how the heck you can say that the PvP community wasn't toxic even at the start? 

     You seem to be missing the point.

    am I? or your the one that doesn't have any ground to posting at all about this subject?

    ok, you are clearly just trying to derail this and get it locked now.

    Welcome to block.

  • AirwrenAirwren Member UncommonPosts: 648
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Let's look at the last decade. A decade where to PvP mentality has dominated. 

    A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).

    Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.

    Where has that brought us, really?

    Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?

    Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?

    I'm not really certain that I would agree with "PVP mentality has dominated".  The most successful MMO's over the last 10 years are not really PvP games at their core.  Sure, PvP is there, but I wouldn't say they are pvp-centric games.  At the end of the day I personally believe a shift has been made over the last 10 years with PvE being the focus of most MMO's, as this drives their revenue.  The PvP centered games are not having a lot of big dollar luck.  This discussion should really be about the shift to the FTP, early alpha/beta paid access, Kickstarter trends that seem to be where this genre is heading.  I think Pvp is the last thing people should worry about.

  • SelzyrSelzyr Member UncommonPosts: 60
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Selzyr
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Selzyr
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Selzyr
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by muffins89

     


    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Originally posted by muffins89 where were we to begin with?
     

     

    I guess that's subjective.

    So far, I am feeling that i am discussing this with posters that have never known any different than the last decade that I am questioning.

    And, ofc, those folks are emotionally defending the thing that they know, so meaningful conversation is a kind of dead there.

     

    I guess i can only refer you back to the OP.


     

    I know you specifically named MMORPG's in the thread title. but video games have always been competitive. who can get the highest score? who can get to the end first? that's pvp.

     

    No, that's a bad stretching of the term 'PvP'...

    Comparing high scores, or even achievements, is not the definition of PvP.

    But we both know that, right?

    that's how the game should be played? isn't the PvE community as toxic or worse then the PvP one?

    No, it didn't used to be. And that's the point. We aren't talking about where we are now, we are talking about where the journey that the we have traveled. This isn't a discussion of current PvP Vs. PvE... Because the PvP/ MOBA mentality has thoroughly infected the PvE culture to the extent where they are now the same thing.

    There have always been asshats, sure, but that, again, isn't the point.

    In the end of all this, the problem ISN'T PvP, ITS THE FUCKING PLAYER BASE AND THE COMMUNITIES OF MMORPGS IN GENERAL.

    Wow, you're emotional... No need to get all shouty friend, it's just us talking.

    you never played UO? how the heck you can say that the PvP community wasn't toxic even at the start? 

     You seem to be missing the point.

    am I? or your the one that doesn't have any ground to posting at all about this subject?

    ok, you are clearly just trying to derail this and get it locked now.

    Welcome to block.

    wait when someone doesn't agree with you and actually answers on your thread something that could be debatable you block them? that's how you show that your mature? please enlighten me and tell me how I am missing the point? explain in terms that everyone on this thread understands because I seem to NOT be the only one missing the point, or I should say, your point.

    Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. And the more you know Insanity, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. But I can tell you that only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Let's look at the last decade. A decade where to PvP mentality has dominated. 

    A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).

    Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.

    Where has that brought us, really?

    Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?

    Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?

    I disagree. If anything, we've seen primarily a focus on PvE oriented MMOs.

    Things like raiding, gear grinding, personal storylines, etc. are things that most PvPers don't typically care about. And yet they are there in almost every main MMO. Heck, they drive most of these games.

    Have there been more PvP-oriented MMOs? Absolutely, but they are the exception, not the rule.

    Furthermore, what you're describing is basically 'action-combat', which is not PvP specific by any means. Heck, Devil May Cry & God of War are action combat games. They have zero PvP. As is darksiders, some of the newer Zelda games, Shadow of the Colossus, etc. etc.

    It's a combat mechanic that has nothing to do with whether or not the game is PvP, and all to do with how engaging & exciting the combat is. You may prefer combat that is oriented around tab targetting, around turn-based, or around doing simple rotations around a simple aggro table. That doesn't mean those designs aren't dated or archaic, though. It also has nothing to do w/ the communities themselves.

    Some of the best communities I've known are in games with PvP, and some of the most toxic in games that were primarily PvE (FFXI for example). Conversely I've played PvE games with great communities, and PvP games with horrible ones. The subjective of community has little to do with combat mechanics, and much more to do w/ the general attitude & involvement a game has w/ it's community. When a company takes an active stance to be invested in & nurture their community, it tends to thrive (gw2 is a good example of this, as was everquest). When companies just let their communities devolve into another internet toilet, you get toxic ones.

    So how has PvP mindsets affected our communities within MMOs? They haven't.

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by Howbadisbad

     


    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Originally posted by Howbadisbad  

    Originally posted by Vesavius Let's look at the last decade. A decade where to PvP mentality has dominated. 
    This is obviously a b8 thre... /snip
     

     

    Sorry, I cut it there due to not trusting any post on a forum that uses numbers instead of letters.


     

    Certainly a convenient way to skip having to answer the hard questions isn't it?

    In before thread lock!  Baiters gunna bait...

     

    oh, please... I'm a 'baiter', despite fairly and reasonably engaging others, because I don't respond to text speak on a forum?

    Instead of trying to dismiss me with such cheap tactics, maybe engage the point?

    It is a fair one for discussion.

    Your point lacks a factual premise... impossible to engage.

     

    Then... Don't.

    You are free not to.

    No need to throw around junk terms such as 'baiter' just because you disagree with what's being asked.

    If you cannot engage, just maybe be quiet?

     

     

     

     

     

     

    You aren't contributing to your own discussion, maybe you should go back and read all your replies.

    Did you read them? Yeah, nothing...

    Somebody else said you were baiting      (pause)    You gave no response.

    I agree with that poster with my comment and you attempt to point me in the direction of your fanciful "point". Which others have also said and now I have to be quiet?

    Either contribute or delete this thread because you obviously must have a lot of free time at work.

     

     

     

    I'm done ... Good luck with your bait thread.

     

    image
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 9,821
    Originally posted by Selzyr
     

    Didn't use to be? in what cave you've been living then? you never played UO? how the heck you can say that the PvP community wasn't toxic even at the start? or for the matter, EQ or even DA:OC? darn I must be blind then, but I've seen a lot of crap back when PvP was at the start, on the middle of the said journey your talking about and NOW.

    and IT IS the point here Vesavius you now see more of it? kinda, most of the mature and educated people quit mmorpgs and are playing other stuff, aka, offline games so yea, the idiots stand out more, but doesn't change the fact that there was ALWAYS a toxic community both in PvP and PvE, and none of them are better then the other.

    Look at Sacrifice? you remember that game? a 3rd person RTS created by Shiny Int? yea that one, we had a damn great community there, one or two idiots poped up from time to time but those wouldn't stay long, it was a PvP focused game, now? trust me, you don't want to get into the lobby when someone is around, 99% are asshats, yea those, why? that great community moved on.

    not emotional, just using caps to raise the point, the problem isn't PvP or PvE, its the communities and the fact that your getting more and more kids playing mmorpgs and less mature people nowadays.

    UO was like 15 years ago man.. PTS

  • SelzyrSelzyr Member UncommonPosts: 60
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Let's look at the last decade. A decade where to PvP mentality has dominated. 

    A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).

    Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.

    Where has that brought us, really?

    Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?

    Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?

    I disagree. If anything, we've seen primarily a focus on PvE oriented MMOs.

    Things like raiding, gear grinding, personal storylines, etc. are things that most PvPers don't typically care about. And yet they are there in almost every main MMO. Heck, they drive most of these games.

    Have there been more PvP-oriented MMOs? Absolutely, but they are the exception, not the rule.

    Furthermore, what you're describing is basically 'action-combat', which is not PvP specific by any means. Heck, Devil May Cry & God of War are action combat games. They have zero PvP. As is darksiders, some of the newer Zelda games, Shadow of the Colossus, etc. etc.

    It's a combat mechanic that has nothing to do with whether or not the game is PvP, and all to do with how engaging & exciting the combat is. You may prefer combat that is oriented around tab targetting, around turn-based, or around doing simple rotations around a simple aggro table. That doesn't mean those designs aren't dated or archaic, though. It also has nothing to do w/ the communities themselves.

    Some of the best communities I've known are in games with PvP, and some of the most toxic in games that were primarily PvE (FFXI for example). Conversely I've played PvE games with great communities, and PvP games with horrible ones. The subjective of community has little to do with combat mechanics, and much more to do w/ the general attitude & involvement a game has w/ it's community. When a company takes an active stance to be invested in & nurture their community, it tends to thrive (gw2 is a good example of this, as was everquest). When companies just let their communities devolve into another internet toilet, you get toxic ones.

    So how has PvP mindsets affected our communities within MMOs? They haven't.

    this, this is what I said somewhat with no bickering. and well said aesperus.

    Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. And the more you know Insanity, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. But I can tell you that only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,900
    Originally posted by Airwren
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Let's look at the last decade. A decade where the PvP mentality has dominated. 

    A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).

    Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.

    Where has that brought us, really?

    Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?

    Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?

    I'm not really certain that I would agree with "PVP mentality has dominated".  The most successful MMO's over the last 10 years are not really PvP games at their core.  Sure, PvP is there, but I wouldn't say they are pvp-centric games.  At the end of the day I personally believe a shift has been made over the last 10 years with PvE being the focus of most MMO's, as this drives their revenue.  The PvP centered games are not having a lot of big dollar luck.  This discussion should really be about the shift to the FTP, early alpha/beta paid access, Kickstarter trends that seem to be where this genre is heading.  I think Pvp is the last thing people should worry about.

     

    First off, thanks for the reasonable mature response. It's appreciated.

    To be clear, it was not said that PvP games have dominated, it was said that that the PvP mentality has, which is not the same thing.

    I think many in this thread have missed that point.

  • SelzyrSelzyr Member UncommonPosts: 60
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Airwren
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Let's look at the last decade. A decade where the PvP mentality has dominated. 

    A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).

    Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.

    Where has that brought us, really?

    Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?

    Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?

    I'm not really certain that I would agree with "PVP mentality has dominated".  The most successful MMO's over the last 10 years are not really PvP games at their core.  Sure, PvP is there, but I wouldn't say they are pvp-centric games.  At the end of the day I personally believe a shift has been made over the last 10 years with PvE being the focus of most MMO's, as this drives their revenue.  The PvP centered games are not having a lot of big dollar luck.  This discussion should really be about the shift to the FTP, early alpha/beta paid access, Kickstarter trends that seem to be where this genre is heading.  I think Pvp is the last thing people should worry about.

     

    First off, thanks for the reasonable mature response. It's appreciated.

    To be clear, it was not said that PvP games have dominated, it was said that that the PvP mentality has, which is not the same thing.

    I think many in this thread have missed that point.

    didn't and never did, the PvP mentality is actually decreasing, see how many play ArcheAge?(centered on PvP later on, even if it isn't what we actually wanted to be as a game.) see the said MOBAS that are centered on PvP, they have that niche community that doesn't get out of those(or barely gets out of those games) Warhammer? the game that got taken down? if I remember correctly it was a PvP focused game.

    and I could go on with more examples, the people on this thread understood quite well what you were trying to say or the message you were trying to pass, but it isn't currently the problem of mmorpgs the pvp mentality, this is what were trying to make clear and you don't care to read.

    Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. And the more you know Insanity, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. But I can tell you that only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,900
    Originally posted by Selzyr
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Airwren
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Let's look at the last decade. A decade where the PvP mentality has dominated. 

    A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).

    Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.

    Where has that brought us, really?

    Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?

    Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?

    I'm not really certain that I would agree with "PVP mentality has dominated".  The most successful MMO's over the last 10 years are not really PvP games at their core.  Sure, PvP is there, but I wouldn't say they are pvp-centric games.  At the end of the day I personally believe a shift has been made over the last 10 years with PvE being the focus of most MMO's, as this drives their revenue.  The PvP centered games are not having a lot of big dollar luck.  This discussion should really be about the shift to the FTP, early alpha/beta paid access, Kickstarter trends that seem to be where this genre is heading.  I think Pvp is the last thing people should worry about.

     

    First off, thanks for the reasonable mature response. It's appreciated.

    To be clear, it was not said that PvP games have dominated, it was said that that the PvP mentality has, which is not the same thing.

    I think many in this thread have missed that point.

    didn't and never did

    Of course.

    the PvP mentality is actually decreasing, 

    But then you go on to talking about PvP games... Even talking about a long dead game such as warhammer to support yourself. Again missing the point. You say that you 'get the point', but ofc you would. But I continue to see that you didn't.

    Look, you even call MOBAS 'niche'... When they outpace pretty much every genre, including MMORPGs in the West, to a huge degree. 

    I don't think that you begin to understand that MMORPGs and MOBAs indeed have a large crossover playerbase, but that's beside the point.

    I have to personally question the validity of everything you say tbh.

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Airwren
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Let's look at the last decade. A decade where the PvP mentality has dominated. 

    A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).

    Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.

    Where has that brought us, really?

    Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?

    Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?

    I'm not really certain that I would agree with "PVP mentality has dominated".  The most successful MMO's over the last 10 years are not really PvP games at their core.  Sure, PvP is there, but I wouldn't say they are pvp-centric games.  At the end of the day I personally believe a shift has been made over the last 10 years with PvE being the focus of most MMO's, as this drives their revenue.  The PvP centered games are not having a lot of big dollar luck.  This discussion should really be about the shift to the FTP, early alpha/beta paid access, Kickstarter trends that seem to be where this genre is heading.  I think Pvp is the last thing people should worry about.

    First off, thanks for the reasonable mature response. It's appreciated.

    To be clear, it was not said that PvP games have dominated, it was said that that the PvP mentality has, which is not the same thing.

    I think many in this thread have missed that point.

    If you're main focus is to be on 'the pvp mentality', then you need to more clearly define what you think that means.

    PvP is a game mechanic. One that focuses around players competing with each other.

    You have players and developers that prefer such mechanics within their games. However neither of those particularly constitutes a 'mentality'. The way you assume all PvPers act can be considered a mentality, however player-preference is not.

    Simply put, what you may be thinking of as a 'mentality' might actually not be one at all. The most logical alternative would be 'pvp focused games', but here you have explicitly stated that isn't what you're talking about.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,900
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Airwren
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Let's look at the last decade. A decade where the PvP mentality has dominated. 

    A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).

    Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.

    Where has that brought us, really?

    Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?

    Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?

    I'm not really certain that I would agree with "PVP mentality has dominated".  The most successful MMO's over the last 10 years are not really PvP games at their core.  Sure, PvP is there, but I wouldn't say they are pvp-centric games.  At the end of the day I personally believe a shift has been made over the last 10 years with PvE being the focus of most MMO's, as this drives their revenue.  The PvP centered games are not having a lot of big dollar luck.  This discussion should really be about the shift to the FTP, early alpha/beta paid access, Kickstarter trends that seem to be where this genre is heading.  I think Pvp is the last thing people should worry about.

    First off, thanks for the reasonable mature response. It's appreciated.

    To be clear, it was not said that PvP games have dominated, it was said that that the PvP mentality has, which is not the same thing.

    I think many in this thread have missed that point.

    If you're main focus is to be on 'the pvp mentality', then you need to more clearly define what you think that means.

    or maybe, considering the terminology was very clear, it is up to others to ask if they do not understand instead of leaping to the kind of hostile argument that we have seen here in this thread?

    PvP is a game mechanic.

    It is. But the culture it breeds isn't.

    Simply put.

  • askdabossaskdaboss Member UncommonPosts: 631
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by askdaboss
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?

    That's forum PvP - even ganking - you're doing there.

    Oh, shush with that 'forum PvP' nonsense. 

    The posters that started that as a concept here on these boards have a lot to answer for. And they are a product of exactly what I am asking about here in all actuallity.

    It was just a joke. It meant: your topic is quite aggressive and biased.

    As far as I know the PvE communities are as toxic as PvP communities 

    Yep, as 'far as you know'.

    Prove me wrong, or I'm right.

    But PvP is the only de facto group content.

    You are kinda new to the genre, right?

    Great response! Nope I'm not.

     

    Anyway, where is the proof?

    I'm calling bullshit on this entire topic. Your just forum trolling here my dear PvE friend.

  • SelzyrSelzyr Member UncommonPosts: 60
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Airwren
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Let's look at the last decade. A decade where the PvP mentality has dominated. 

    A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).

    Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.

    Where has that brought us, really?

    Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?

    Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?

    I'm not really certain that I would agree with "PVP mentality has dominated".  The most successful MMO's over the last 10 years are not really PvP games at their core.  Sure, PvP is there, but I wouldn't say they are pvp-centric games.  At the end of the day I personally believe a shift has been made over the last 10 years with PvE being the focus of most MMO's, as this drives their revenue.  The PvP centered games are not having a lot of big dollar luck.  This discussion should really be about the shift to the FTP, early alpha/beta paid access, Kickstarter trends that seem to be where this genre is heading.  I think Pvp is the last thing people should worry about.

    First off, thanks for the reasonable mature response. It's appreciated.

    To be clear, it was not said that PvP games have dominated, it was said that that the PvP mentality has, which is not the same thing.

    I think many in this thread have missed that point.

    If you're main focus is to be on 'the pvp mentality', then you need to more clearly define what you think that means.

    or maybe, considering the terminology was very clear, it is up to others to ask if they do not understand instead of leaping to the kind of hostile argument that we have seen here in this thread?

    PvP is a game mechanic.

    It is. But the culture it breeds isn't.

    Simply put.

    what culture does it breeds? tell us, what does PvP Created along these years that PvE didn't?

    Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. And the more you know Insanity, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. But I can tell you that only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 9,821
    Originally posted by askdaboss
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by askdaboss
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?

    That's forum PvP - even ganking - you're doing there.

    Oh, shush with that 'forum PvP' nonsense. 

    The posters that started that as a concept here on these boards have a lot to answer for. And they are a product of exactly what I am asking about here in all actuallity.

    It was just a joke. It meant: your topic is quite aggressive and biased.

    As far as I know the PvE communities are as toxic as PvP communities 

    Yep, as 'far as you know'.

    Prove me wrong, or I'm right.

    But PvP is the only de facto group content.

    You are kinda new to the genre, right?

    Great response! Nope I'm not.

     

    Anyway, where is the proof?

    I'm calling bullshit on this entire topic. Your just forum trolling here my dear PvE friend.

    At this point I agree.

  • prestodotexeprestodotexe Member Posts: 35

    Currently I am playing Ultima Online player shard, and why? The PvP in that game is far superior to any other game that has come out since. A lot of people still play this almost 20 year old game just because of this aspect of gameplay. The game is so unpredictable it makes for a fun time. Ai is and always will be unexciting to me. 

     

    PvP games have been decreasing, people dont want to think anymore. They like it when developers spoon-feed them this garbage we call "PvP games" nowdays.

    haha presto!

  • SelzyrSelzyr Member UncommonPosts: 60
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Selzyr
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Airwren
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Let's look at the last decade. A decade where the PvP mentality has dominated. 

    A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).

    Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.

    Where has that brought us, really?

    Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?

    Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?

    I'm not really certain that I would agree with "PVP mentality has dominated".  The most successful MMO's over the last 10 years are not really PvP games at their core.  Sure, PvP is there, but I wouldn't say they are pvp-centric games.  At the end of the day I personally believe a shift has been made over the last 10 years with PvE being the focus of most MMO's, as this drives their revenue.  The PvP centered games are not having a lot of big dollar luck.  This discussion should really be about the shift to the FTP, early alpha/beta paid access, Kickstarter trends that seem to be where this genre is heading.  I think Pvp is the last thing people should worry about.

     

    First off, thanks for the reasonable mature response. It's appreciated.

    To be clear, it was not said that PvP games have dominated, it was said that that the PvP mentality has, which is not the same thing.

    I think many in this thread have missed that point.

    didn't and never did

    Of course.

    the PvP mentality is actually decreasing, 

    But then you go on to talking about PvP games... Even talking about a long dead game such as warhammer to support yourself. Again missing the point. You say that you 'get the point', but ofc you would. But I continue to see that you didn't.

    Look, you even call MOBAS 'niche'... When they outpace pretty much every genre, including MMORPGs in the West, to a huge degree. 

    I don't think that you begin to understand that MMORPGs and MOBAs indeed have a large crossover playerbase, but that's beside the point.

    I have to personally question the validity of everything you say tbh.

    then what Games should we talk about? isn't PvP what were talking about here? the mentality that it breeds, the toxic talk and bullshit that brings to the games and whatnot?

    or your point is another that no one got up until now and you can't even explain, again enlighten me and the others your view on all of this point by point so we can understand because the first post on this thread(yours) didn't tell us anything expect a QQ that things aren't like you want them to be and you are being bias expecting that everyone feels the same way and should follow your wagon.

    Let me be clear indeed mmorpgs and mobas have a large crossover player-base and I'm fully aware of that but doesn't change the fact that you are seeing more and more of that part of the toxic community because the mature players are simply moving on to other genres or simply ignoring it like a mature player should do, ignore the bad, take the good in.

    Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. And the more you know Insanity, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. But I can tell you that only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
  • SelzyrSelzyr Member UncommonPosts: 60
    Originally posted by prestodotexe
    Currently I am playing Ultima Online player shard, and why? The PvP in that game is far superior to any other game that has come out since. A lot of people still play this almost 20 year old game just because of this. The PvP gameplay is so unpredictable it makes for a fun time. Ai is and always will be unexciting to me. 

    A player shard has a more controlled environment when it comes to Ultima Online(a good thing mind you) and you see rarely any "new" player to the game, most of them are returning players looking for nostalgia or even players that don't want to pay for a UO sub because....yea it aint worth it on the point of view of some players or OE(other example) they got friends already playing on that shard that can't afford a sub.

    regardless, yes taking out the bad of the PvP community, UO pvp wasn't bad.

    Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. And the more you know Insanity, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. But I can tell you that only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
  • prestodotexeprestodotexe Member Posts: 35
    That's true, although a lot of people in this guild I am in are newer and have only played UO for about half a year. Some catch on quite quickly, I just enjoy the feeling you get when you know you can be killed and looted dry in a matter of minutes. (also when you can kill/loot others) It adds a high level of excitement.

    haha presto!

  • VyntVynt Member UncommonPosts: 753

    I don't think the pvp mentality or pvp even has anything to do with the deterioration of communites or the genre. It really boils down to the simplification of the games. Where as before groups were needed, cooperation, many roles needed, over the years it became less and less to the point that everyone just solos. When people do group, it is a random merging without really any need for cooperation. The only time you see such cooperation is within guilds and raiding which is a small part.

    With even more people playing, there are bound to be more toxic people, then add in that most people don't really need each other, they have no need to be civil, thus becoming more toxic.

    Also, the more action and often less tactical (not always) gameplay is more of a consequence of the oversimplification. Why have groups of people working in conjunction, each providing a necessary role, when you can have a bunch of people not even talking to each other  hacking and slashing at the mobs.

    The action combat ends up being easier if everyone can do anything. Also add in a F2P model, and a quality game isn't even necessary because people will throw money at it for a couple weeks, leave, but the game will still make a profit which just leads to people being more toxic because crap is just being produced, they're being milked, and move on. Rinse and repeat, recipe for the new MMO success.

  • SelzyrSelzyr Member UncommonPosts: 60
    Originally posted by prestodotexe
    That's true, although a lot of people in this guild I am in are newer and have only played UO for about half a year. Some catch on quite quickly, I just enjoy the feeling you get when you know you can be killed and looted dry in a matter of minutes. (also when you can kill/loot others) It adds a high level of excitement.

    *sigh* good times....yea I understand totally that feeling.

     

    and what shard it is? private message me the name of the shard, I might jump to UO again after all.

    Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. And the more you know Insanity, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. But I can tell you that only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
  • JDis25JDis25 Member RarePosts: 1,350

    I can't even believe this thread is real. Only PvP games I can recall are Darkfall, Guild wars 1&2, Archeage... PS2...Aion I guess..basically it.

     

    Pretty much all other MMOs are PvE-centered themeparks. WoW, SWTOR, Wildstar, Lotro, Rift, ESO, EQ2, TERA, FFXIV, TSW  and all the other less-than-AAA MMOs to be released.

    Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War
    Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,900
    Originally posted by JDis25

    I can't even believe this thread is real. Only PvP games I can recall are Darkfall, Guild wars 1&2, Archeage... PS2...Aion I guess..basically it.

    Pretty much all other MMOs are PvE-centered themeparks. WoW, SWTOR, Wildstar, Lotro, Rift, ESO, EQ2, TERA, FFXIV, TSW  and all the other less-than-AAA MMOs to be released.

     

    Then you are just another one not understanding the difference between PvP games and PvP mentality.

    You can't believe the question being asked because, simply, you haven't understood it.

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