Who cares what the actual subscription numbers are ? If 8 to 10 million players are paying to play WoW each month, that's the only fact of any importance. How they're paying is irrelevant.
Subs are not some magic guarantee, they can be cancelled at any moment.
See, there's another question I'd like to see answered. Of the population who do log in 5+ hours a month, how many are actually playing the game and how many just treat it like a glorified chat server? Now that would be difficult to quantify.
It doesn't matter.
Let's assume 100% of WoW players are Chinese. Let's also assume 100% of WoW players only use WoW as a chat room.
Then what? Does something change for you? Is WoW making less money? Does the game you've always wanted just spring into existence? Please share what it is that happens if WoW is populated by Chinese chatters.
See, this is just belittling and dismissive. It matters to me. Deal with it or forget it. To wit, what's it to you if it matters to me? What a stupid line of questioning.
It's no stupider than your line of questioning. None of us benefit either way. I've seen various people in this thread give solid answers and you just keep looking for ways to make it not true. So it's perfectly reasonable to wonder what it is you want to hear and what it will do for you?
Rusque, really, what was the solid answer to "What percentage of the playerbase logs in 5 or more hours a month"?
Tell me, I missed it.
How about knowing the percentage of players who log in for more than 6 hours a month? How about 7+ hours? How about 3+ hours? How about 10+ hours?
How about if you're *really* interested in knowing that difference (because YOU think it makes a difference if the person logged in for more than 1 hour this month), YOU move from your chair and try to find out this information by yourself?
I will be glad to hear your findings in this topic.
Is there any special meaning to that number "5" that will suddenly prove or disprove a point? And why?
How about knowing the percentage of players who log in for more than 6 hours a month? How about 7+ hours? How about 3+ hours? How about 10+ hours?
How about if you're *really* interested in knowing that difference (because YOU think it makes a difference if the person logged in for more than 1 hour this month), YOU move from your chair and try to find out this information by yourself?
I will be glad to hear your findings in this topic.
Is there any special meaning to that number "5" that will suddenly prove or disprove a point? And why?
Take a hypothetical of a ftp game that advertises "!,000,000 accounts!", but far fewer actually play the game. Hey, I may have made an account, saw it was no fun, and quit after a few hours, yet I'm still counted in that number. Now we have a situation with cyber cafe packages, the model of which many westerners don't understand, wherein WoW can be one piece of software of dozens for which a subscriber pays in the package of participation at the venue. Say a person logs on WoW for a couple hours, doesn't think much of it, isn't really interested in playing the game anymore, yet is counted as one of several million who "have logged on with a unique account". Say this happens 5 million or 6 million times in a population of people to which middle class amenities are relatively new over the last decade.
Are you seeing my point now? Why would you tell me about these? The numbers aren't "inflated" exactly, because they're exactly what you say they are, but it's not the same insinuation, it's not the same meaning in my mind had there been 8-10 million players actually playing, actively participating in the game. It doesn't become a "lie", but it's not wholly the truth, either. I don't like that much, because it's a figure that's not saying much to me, yet made to look huge for advertising purposes.
How would I go about finding out? I don't suppose I can and I've said that. Why would the company admit to this advertisement illusion? It certainly wouldn't be helpful for them to say "8 million log on a month but only 2 million actually play the game", now would it?
Who cares what the actual subscription numbers are ? If 8 to 10 million players are paying to play WoW each month, that's the only fact of any importance. How they're paying is irrelevant.
Subs are not some magic guarantee, they can be cancelled at any moment.
+1!!!!!
If I make $1 Billion/year and you make $10 million, it doesn't really matter if you're using Unreal Engine 10 technology with Hololens and 10 gazillion polygons per model, I'm still making $1 Billion / year.
How about knowing the percentage of players who log in for more than 6 hours a month? How about 7+ hours? How about 3+ hours? How about 10+ hours?
How about if you're *really* interested in knowing that difference (because YOU think it makes a difference if the person logged in for more than 1 hour this month), YOU move from your chair and try to find out this information by yourself?
I will be glad to hear your findings in this topic.
Is there any special meaning to that number "5" that will suddenly prove or disprove a point? And why?
Say a person logs on WoW for a couple hours, doesn't think much of it, isn't really interested in playing the game anymore, yet is counted as one of several million who "have logged on with a unique account". Say this happens 5 million or 6 million times in a population of people to which middle class amenities are relatively new over the last decade.
Are you seeing my point now? Why would you tell me about these? The numbers aren't "inflated" exactly, because they're exactly what you say they are, but it's not the same insinuation, it's not the same meaning in my mind had there been 8-10 million players actually playing, actively participating in the game. It doesn't become a "lie", but it's not wholly the truth, either. I don't like that much, because it's a figure that's not saying much to me, yet made to look huge for advertising purposes.
I'm still not sure about the point, since even though your player is only trying the game this month and ONLY this month, another player must take their place next month and try the game as well or the "number of subscribers" will fall. This is still a success, and still proves the game is hugely successful (even amongst casual players).
That means every month they are still getting a new supply of players. Which is more than many games can even hope for. If this was "due to happen mechanically due to the distribution of population (middle class)" then any game could boast about the same thing. But as you have probably noticed, no other P2P game can - and probably very few MMORPGs can boast about the same numbers (which they would, believe me).
Of course, nobody expects a 100% retention on subscribers, but it is only fair to take those 1-hour-a-month-only subscribers into account.
Yes, obviously they will take the most positive figure they can. It's true, figures never tell the full story, they are just 1 number established under specific conditions - it's up to you to do your analysis and understand the limits of the numbers presented to you. That said, knowing the number of people who log in for 5+ hours wouldn't tell the full story either and could be as easily dismissed as incomplete information.
Yes, obviously they will take the most positive figure they can. It's true, figures never tell the full story, they are just 1 number established under specific conditions - it's up to you to do your analysis and understand the limits of the numbers presented to you. That said, knowing the number of people who log in for 5+ hours wouldn't tell the full story either and could be as easily dismissed as incomplete information.
Well that and that even if we had those numbers they'd still be useless in a vacuum. We'd need the same reports from other MMO's to see if they're normal. If EVE has 500k subs, how many of those are people just logging 5 hours a month? And how many are multiple accounts?
How many F2P games that report accounts/registered players have players logging 5 hours a month? Farmville, 120 million players. What is a player? Is it someone who accepted their friends invitation to play the game so that their friend could get some bonus seeds?
Why are you people arguing over numbers when you can't even see other players because everyone's sitting in instances and Garrisons now? All I could see was kids constantly selling CS:GO skins on a freaking Trade Chat.
See, there's another question I'd like to see answered. Of the population who do log in 5+ hours a month, how many are actually playing the game and how many just treat it like a glorified chat server? Now that would be difficult to quantify.
And this is just a WoW phenomenon?
Honestly who gives a shit how many people play.
Its a lot, is that good enough for you?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I've brought up this type of discussion in other circumstances and was genuinely curious how they ended up with the numbers, not even interested in the game's income. Sure, there are alot of english-speaking servers in WoW, but 8 million is a pretty huge number to wrap your mind around. 2 million is similarly a pretty huge number. I can imagine x servers divided roughly into 2 million, but 8 or 10? no...
Also, it's not the issue of "whether each Chinese person pays 1 dollar". The question is whether these are actually people playing the game from start to max and raids or just people dabbling in an internet cafe package account, maybe like 1-20 over a period of 2-4 hours a month each. I suspect it's the latter.
I know WoW is popular and I know many, many people play it. Aspects of lore and humor have crept their way into many facets of pop culture. I just don't think there are 8 million concurrent 20+ hour a month players. Of course then you get into the issue of "how many hours a month does someone have to log on to be a real player?", and I understand that argument, but I don't think it's "4 hours a month on an internet cafe package deal". I think the statement "8 million" or "10 million" is misleading for this reason.
But no one's going to tell me, truthfully, one way or the other...
So, I guess I'll live with my suspicions and 1.9999 million USA fans will continue to believe, "there are 10 million other people who like what I like!".
YOu know why we are interested in revenue and the financial statements? Because the split of those 8-10m is not given anywhere. So one of the best way to ascertain how many of those are actual $15, is to look at earnings.
Your post on the other hand is only based on what you "think" or what you want to "believe". Basically your agenda is to say that you think that most of WoW subs play only 4 hours a month and pay nothing, whereas there is only very few US/EU subscribers. HOwever, you are only basing this on your ulterior motive to make WoW look bad.
So this is why people who are actually looking to have an approximate view of the split to an extent, look at financial statements.
Your last sentence is pretty much what people who are clueless say. To me it sounds like "I am cluess and I would live with my suspicions".
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
As of November 2014, WoW had over 10 million active subs, there may well be less at this point, but until Blizzard makes another statement about player numbers, its all pretty much guesswork, as for the whole 'there's 8 million chinese players' just how deluded do you have to be to think that? the clear majority of players is in NA/EU, always has been, don't know why people have such a problem with that concept, but there it is, and since nobody is forced at gun point to play the game, stop worrying about it so much
Can you describe what "Internet game room players" are, in China? They're people with package deals in an internet cafe. There might be tens of millions of such package holders, maybe 10 percent logged on for 2 hours last month, and they're counted in that number.
I read reports just fine. You can hide details in plain sight with the way things are worded. You know that. Are you so grumpy with me for some reason that it overshadows your analytical capability?
So what if they only log on for two hours? They are still "WoW subscribers" according to the definition given by Blizzard. It's a monthly figure too (as in: the connection must have happened in the last 30 days).
Then I'm not really impressed. That's all I'm saying. It's nothing really to tell me about so many people who have "an active sub" as described in this fashion, but have significantly fewer actually actively playing the game.
Apparently people are impressed, by the showing of people whose panties get so bunched over the topic. If I feel like someone's communicating something to me that's not entirely genuine, I say something. Maybe you don't. Takes all kinds.
People need to settle down. Unless it's your project or your investment, what's it really matter if I want the honest truth of the matter?
To me it matters how much they make. WoW makes 1-1.1 billion per year. That makes for more money than the next 10 MMOs combined. I am am happy with that.
What Blizzard are saying is genuine information. The company is listed and its financial statements are audited. The definition of a subscriber hasn't changed during the life of the game. This allows for comparison between years.
It doesn't matter how actively people play a game. If I played WoW only 10 hours a month and still paid my $15 sub, what the hell do you care? Should we put a limit of 100 hours a month so that excessive players don't play too much?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
How about knowing the percentage of players who log in for more than 6 hours a month? How about 7+ hours? How about 3+ hours? How about 10+ hours?
How about if you're *really* interested in knowing that difference (because YOU think it makes a difference if the person logged in for more than 1 hour this month), YOU move from your chair and try to find out this information by yourself?
I will be glad to hear your findings in this topic.
Is there any special meaning to that number "5" that will suddenly prove or disprove a point? And why?
Say a person logs on WoW for a couple hours, doesn't think much of it, isn't really interested in playing the game anymore, yet is counted as one of several million who "have logged on with a unique account". Say this happens 5 million or 6 million times in a population of people to which middle class amenities are relatively new over the last decade.
Are you seeing my point now? Why would you tell me about these? The numbers aren't "inflated" exactly, because they're exactly what you say they are, but it's not the same insinuation, it's not the same meaning in my mind had there been 8-10 million players actually playing, actively participating in the game. It doesn't become a "lie", but it's not wholly the truth, either. I don't like that much, because it's a figure that's not saying much to me, yet made to look huge for advertising purposes.
I'm still not sure about the point, since even though your player is only trying the game this month and ONLY this month, another player must take their place next month and try the game as well or the "number of subscribers" will fall. This is still a success, and still proves the game is hugely successful (even amongst casual players).
That means every month they are still getting a new supply of players. Which is more than many games can even hope for. If this was "due to happen mechanically due to the distribution of population (middle class)" then any game could boast about the same thing. But as you have probably noticed, no other P2P game can - and probably very few MMORPGs can boast about the same numbers (which they would, believe me).
Of course, nobody expects a 100% retention on subscribers, but it is only fair to take those 1-hour-a-month-only subscribers into account.
Yes, obviously they will take the most positive figure they can. It's true, figures never tell the full story, they are just 1 number established under specific conditions - it's up to you to do your analysis and understand the limits of the numbers presented to you. That said, knowing the number of people who log in for 5+ hours wouldn't tell the full story either and could be as easily dismissed as incomplete information.
I never argued it wasn't successful, but otherwise...
This is the best post yet in this thread on the counterpoint, and with it I can comfortably agree to disagree. You say "new supply of players", but that figure of "10 million players!" is self perpetuating, like a conveyor. For every player who tries it and leaves, there's one who looks at that and says, "hmm, 10 million people play it, maybe I will like it". I think, because you're relenting we don't see the full picture in those figures, you're working to understand my point and I appreciate it.
It is an accepted fact that WoW went back over 10M+ subs. How these subs are counted was a valid issue 5 (or even 10) years ago, but is a mute point now. This is a baseline number used by the industry to show the activity. The only real comparison of this number, is itself, over time.
It has been established over the years (from information disclosed to investors/stockholders) that the % of this count in china ranges from 2/3 (66.6%) to 3/4 (75%). It varies based on events in the different regions (new expansion releases, changing in the publisher in china, etc). It would be reasonable to assume that with the latest expansion released in the west, that currently 1/3 of the 10M are in the west (and that this is where the increase was with the release of the expansion).
However, non of this really matters. WoW lost the title of the largest online game years ago, and as such how its playerbase is distributed is only relevant if there are broad changes in the distribution. At this time these numbers are only good for comparing against themselves.
It has been established over the years (from information disclosed to investors/stockholders) that the % of this count in china ranges from 2/3 (66.6%) to 3/4 (75%). It varies based on events in the different regions (new expansion releases, changing in the publisher in china, etc). It would be reasonable to assume that with the latest expansion released in the west, that currently 1/3 of the 10M are in the west (and that this is where the increase was with the release of the expansion).
Where can I find references or citations for such data? I would very much like to staple it to a couple foreheads.
In 2011, of approximately 10.4 mil , 3 mil were in us and canada. over 4.5 mil were in "asian realms", with another 800k in "other", some part of which are asian realms. So, almost half were in asian realms, far less than a third were USA, the remainder mostly in Europe. No citation is given, though....
So, 70%+ were from outside the USA but not necessarily China. I can run with that.
I wonder when we will see similar, more contemporary stats.
further edit: Oh, hmm, look at this, characters logged on in the last 30 days on US servers....2,155,669
World of Warcraft claims to have anywhere between 8 to 10 million subscribers.
But I have my doubts about this number. Does that number include Chinese "subscriptions?" If I'm not mistaken isn't it against the law in China to charge a monthly subscription price?
I know WoW wasn't listed as one of the most profitable games for Activision/Blizzard. But if it really had 8 to 10 million subscribers then how could it not? ($14.95/month * 12 months * 8 million = $1,435,200,000). That number isn't even including the # of expansion sales.
I have a theory WoW has only about 1 million US subscribers and the 8 to 10 million subscription rate is being inflated by numbers from a country like China.
Can anyone shed any light on this? I'm curious.
So, if http://www.warcraftrealms.com/realmstats.php is to be believed, let's say each player logs on an average of 2 (?) characters per month, although I'm sure people are going to argue (rawr! mah WoW! how dare you, troll! I log on point 5 character per month!) Many log on only 1 or 2, some 3, very few 5 or 7 but I know people who do. So, I don't think it's unreasonable to arrive at an arbitrary number of 2.
So, 2,155,669 / 2 is 1,077,834 (and .5 for the guy who logs on 2 hours a month...) logged on USA servers over the last 30 days.
I rate my post "LoL". I get 2 points and a badge. X gets a square.
It has been established over the years (from information disclosed to investors/stockholders) that the % of this count in china ranges from 2/3 (66.6%) to 3/4 (75%). It varies based on events in the different regions (new expansion releases, changing in the publisher in china, etc). It would be reasonable to assume that with the latest expansion released in the west, that currently 1/3 of the 10M are in the west (and that this is where the increase was with the release of the expansion).
Where can I find references or citations for such data? I would very much like to staple it to a couple foreheads.
In 2011, of approximately 10.4 mil , 3 mil were in us and canada. over 4.5 mil were in "asian realms", with another 800k in "other", some part of which are asian realms. So, almost half were in asian realms, far less than a third were USA, the remainder mostly in Europe. No citation is given, though....
So, 70%+ were from outside the USA but not necessarily China. I can run with that.
I wonder when we will see similar, more contemporary stats.
further edit: Oh, hmm, look at this, characters logged on in the last 30 days on US servers....2,155,669
3 of 5 highest scored raidguilds, at the moment, is Chinese caferaiders...
Not sure what your point is but it is hardly surprising. I have played in games with (non-Chinese) café groups in other games and I have found such groups to be committed, dedicated and very focused. And in my experience great folk to know as well.
Originally posted by Adjuvant1 What happened, guys? Is the topic not fun anymore, since I posted those links to Wowwiki and Warcraftrealms?
Actually those numbers seem accurate and pretty standard. I heard about roughly the same statistics from MMO developers in regards of active player numbers in subscription based games. Usually 10% of subscribers log into the game on a regular basis and about 30-35% log in at least monthly. These percentages are not official data but they are based on insider publisher data from the past decade and reportedly this tendency hasn't changed much over time. So regarding US data showing that approximately 1/3 of 3 million US subscribers log in within the past 30 days seems accurate and standard to monthly subscription based games. That's why I said earlier that the number of subscriptions is way higher than the number of people actually using the service they pay for.
Chinese sub numbers are not surprising either since even Blizzard stated in some of their quarterly financial reports that about half of their sub numbers are from Asia.
The only numbers anyone ever needs to concern themselves with is those that they can physically see on their screen while they are in game. If everyone is in their garrison or in some instance and you are not, you might as well be the only player in game, because from your perspective, you are.
It has been established over the years (from information disclosed to investors/stockholders) that the % of this count in china ranges from 2/3 (66.6%) to 3/4 (75%). It varies based on events in the different regions (new expansion releases, changing in the publisher in china, etc). It would be reasonable to assume that with the latest expansion released in the west, that currently 1/3 of the 10M are in the west (and that this is where the increase was with the release of the expansion).
Where can I find references or citations for such data? I would very much like to staple it to a couple foreheads.
In 2011, of approximately 10.4 mil , 3 mil were in us and canada. over 4.5 mil were in "asian realms", with another 800k in "other", some part of which are asian realms. So, almost half were in asian realms, far less than a third were USA, the remainder mostly in Europe. No citation is given, though....
So, 70%+ were from outside the USA but not necessarily China. I can run with that.
I wonder when we will see similar, more contemporary stats.
further edit: Oh, hmm, look at this, characters logged on in the last 30 days on US servers....2,155,669
I wonder how many characters per account. Hmmmm....
The difference between the people analyzing the ATVI financial reports and you analyzing warcraftrealms and looking at wowwiki's numbers for WoW's population by country(from 4 years ago which has absolutely 0 relevance to the here and now) is that the financial reports are official documented numbers, the others are merely estimates and guesses and in wowwiki's case doesn't even disclose how they came to those figures.
From the bottom of warcraftrealms, i quote "The ratios are color coded as follows. If the number you see is red, then there have been less than 50 data snapshots submitted for this server/faction in the last 30 days. This is BAD and we need more info on those realm/factions! If the number you see is in yellow, then there have been more than 50, but less than 100. This is better, but we really could use more data. If the number is green then there have been more than 100 snapshots submitted in the last 30 days. This is fairly acceptible to give reliable data!"
What does this mean, well just that. They took snapchats of the servers and if the number is red, they did it less than 50 times in a given month, yellow, more than 50 but less than 100, and green simply more than 100 in the last 30 days. So it is by no means as reliable as looking at ATVI's financial reports because those numbers cannot lie, they are not estimates, they are exact. The websites you posted are mere estimates on independent websites who may have had a flawed procedure, or they might not. But thats the problem, we don't know because they're estimates.
Likewise the wowwiki link is completely irrelevant since it was 4 freaking years ago which is about when WoW's population was at its lowest.
But knowing you, you're not going to accept that you only went searching for information and websites that lined up with whatever preconceived notion you seem to have about WoW's subs and how its nothing that amazing and people should stop talking about it like its impressive. So, even my post is meaningless since I know nothing is going to change your mind. Nothing at all, you're simply bigoted when it comes to WoW and its pretty pathetic honestly since its just a fucking game. But I suppose people have done worse.
Happy refuting, I won't be taking any further part in it past this.
I never argued it wasn't successful, but otherwise...
This is the best post yet in this thread on the counterpoint, and with it I can comfortably agree to disagree. You say "new supply of players", but that figure of "10 million players!" is self perpetuating, like a conveyor. For every player who tries it and leaves, there's one who looks at that and says, "hmm, 10 million people play it, maybe I will like it". I think, because you're relenting we don't see the full picture in those figures, you're working to understand my point and I appreciate it.
But again this is guesswork.
I have been around since the start and i am still there, one of the lucky ones to qualify for a Blizzard statue recently, and that little gesture alone shows that there has been a core of players around for a long time within the game. I have people who have been in my current guild since it's creation over five years ago who are still there full time and some who pop in and out.
Blizzard released a stat that there have been over 100 million players over it's lifetime so far, but i have always maintained that there has been a core of maybe 3.5Mill people (western subs) who have always been around on and off since the beginning. That is just my view from experience in the game and from Blizzard reports, but which ever way you cut it, you will struggle to find another company that has been as open about it's player base than Blizzard.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
It has been established over the years (from information disclosed to investors/stockholders) that the % of this count in china ranges from 2/3 (66.6%) to 3/4 (75%). It varies based on events in the different regions (new expansion releases, changing in the publisher in china, etc). It would be reasonable to assume that with the latest expansion released in the west, that currently 1/3 of the 10M are in the west (and that this is where the increase was with the release of the expansion).
Where can I find references or citations for such data? I would very much like to staple it to a couple foreheads.
In 2011, of approximately 10.4 mil , 3 mil were in us and canada. over 4.5 mil were in "asian realms", with another 800k in "other", some part of which are asian realms. So, almost half were in asian realms, far less than a third were USA, the remainder mostly in Europe. No citation is given, though....
So, 70%+ were from outside the USA but not necessarily China. I can run with that.
I wonder when we will see similar, more contemporary stats.
further edit: Oh, hmm, look at this, characters logged on in the last 30 days on US servers....2,155,669
I wonder how many characters per account. Hmmmm....
The difference between the people analyzing the ATVI financial reports and you analyzing warcraftrealms and looking at wowwiki's numbers for WoW's population by country(from 4 years ago which has absolutely 0 relevance to the here and now) is that the financial reports are official documented numbers, the others are merely estimates and guesses and in wowwiki's case doesn't even disclose how they came to those figures.
From the bottom of warcraftrealms, i quote "The ratios are color coded as follows. If the number you see is red, then there have been less than 50 data snapshots submitted for this server/faction in the last 30 days. This is BAD and we need more info on those realm/factions! If the number you see is in yellow, then there have been more than 50, but less than 100. This is better, but we really could use more data. If the number is green then there have been more than 100 snapshots submitted in the last 30 days. This is fairly acceptible to give reliable data!"
What does this mean, well just that. They took snapchats of the servers and if the number is red, they did it less than 50 times in a given month, yellow, more than 50 but less than 100, and green simply more than 100 in the last 30 days. So it is by no means as reliable as looking at ATVI's financial reports because those numbers cannot lie, they are not estimates, they are exact. The websites you posted are mere estimates on independent websites who may have had a flawed procedure, or they might not. But thats the problem, we don't know because they're estimates.
Likewise the wowwiki link is completely irrelevant since it was 4 freaking years ago which is about when WoW's population was at its lowest.
But knowing you, you're not going to accept that you only went searching for information and websites that lined up with whatever preconceived notion you seem to have about WoW's subs and how its nothing that amazing and people should stop talking about it like its impressive. So, even my post is meaningless since I know nothing is going to change your mind. Nothing at all, you're simply bigoted when it comes to WoW and its pretty pathetic honestly since its just a fucking game. But I suppose people have done worse.
Happy refuting, I won't be taking any further part in it past this.
It has been established over the years (from information disclosed to investors/stockholders) that the % of this count in china ranges from 2/3 (66.6%) to 3/4 (75%). It varies based on events in the different regions (new expansion releases, changing in the publisher in china, etc). It would be reasonable to assume that with the latest expansion released in the west, that currently 1/3 of the 10M are in the west (and that this is where the increase was with the release of the expansion).
Where can I find references or citations for such data? I would very much like to staple it to a couple foreheads.
In 2011, of approximately 10.4 mil , 3 mil were in us and canada. over 4.5 mil were in "asian realms", with another 800k in "other", some part of which are asian realms. So, almost half were in asian realms, far less than a third were USA, the remainder mostly in Europe. No citation is given, though....
So, 70%+ were from outside the USA but not necessarily China. I can run with that.
I wonder when we will see similar, more contemporary stats.
further edit: Oh, hmm, look at this, characters logged on in the last 30 days on US servers....2,155,669
I wonder how many characters per account. Hmmmm....
The difference between the people analyzing the ATVI financial reports and you analyzing warcraftrealms and looking at wowwiki's numbers for WoW's population by country(from 4 years ago which has absolutely 0 relevance to the here and now) is that the financial reports are official documented numbers, the others are merely estimates and guesses and in wowwiki's case doesn't even disclose how they came to those figures....
The difference is that Adjuvant1's approximations could be correct, whereas Superman has forgotten WoW Korea and WoW Taiwan from his analysis and thus the only way his analysis could arrive to correct result is by making another equally large mistake that would coincidentally correct the numbers.
Comments
Who cares what the actual subscription numbers are ? If 8 to 10 million players are paying to play WoW each month, that's the only fact of any importance. How they're paying is irrelevant.
Subs are not some magic guarantee, they can be cancelled at any moment.
How about knowing the percentage of players who log in for more than 6 hours a month? How about 7+ hours? How about 3+ hours? How about 10+ hours?
How about if you're *really* interested in knowing that difference (because YOU think it makes a difference if the person logged in for more than 1 hour this month), YOU move from your chair and try to find out this information by yourself?
I will be glad to hear your findings in this topic.
Is there any special meaning to that number "5" that will suddenly prove or disprove a point? And why?
Take a hypothetical of a ftp game that advertises "!,000,000 accounts!", but far fewer actually play the game. Hey, I may have made an account, saw it was no fun, and quit after a few hours, yet I'm still counted in that number. Now we have a situation with cyber cafe packages, the model of which many westerners don't understand, wherein WoW can be one piece of software of dozens for which a subscriber pays in the package of participation at the venue. Say a person logs on WoW for a couple hours, doesn't think much of it, isn't really interested in playing the game anymore, yet is counted as one of several million who "have logged on with a unique account". Say this happens 5 million or 6 million times in a population of people to which middle class amenities are relatively new over the last decade.
Are you seeing my point now? Why would you tell me about these? The numbers aren't "inflated" exactly, because they're exactly what you say they are, but it's not the same insinuation, it's not the same meaning in my mind had there been 8-10 million players actually playing, actively participating in the game. It doesn't become a "lie", but it's not wholly the truth, either. I don't like that much, because it's a figure that's not saying much to me, yet made to look huge for advertising purposes.
How would I go about finding out? I don't suppose I can and I've said that. Why would the company admit to this advertisement illusion? It certainly wouldn't be helpful for them to say "8 million log on a month but only 2 million actually play the game", now would it?
+1!!!!!
If I make $1 Billion/year and you make $10 million, it doesn't really matter if you're using Unreal Engine 10 technology with Hololens and 10 gazillion polygons per model, I'm still making $1 Billion / year.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I'm still not sure about the point, since even though your player is only trying the game this month and ONLY this month, another player must take their place next month and try the game as well or the "number of subscribers" will fall. This is still a success, and still proves the game is hugely successful (even amongst casual players).
That means every month they are still getting a new supply of players. Which is more than many games can even hope for. If this was "due to happen mechanically due to the distribution of population (middle class)" then any game could boast about the same thing. But as you have probably noticed, no other P2P game can - and probably very few MMORPGs can boast about the same numbers (which they would, believe me).
Of course, nobody expects a 100% retention on subscribers, but it is only fair to take those 1-hour-a-month-only subscribers into account.
Yes, obviously they will take the most positive figure they can. It's true, figures never tell the full story, they are just 1 number established under specific conditions - it's up to you to do your analysis and understand the limits of the numbers presented to you. That said, knowing the number of people who log in for 5+ hours wouldn't tell the full story either and could be as easily dismissed as incomplete information.
Well that and that even if we had those numbers they'd still be useless in a vacuum. We'd need the same reports from other MMO's to see if they're normal. If EVE has 500k subs, how many of those are people just logging 5 hours a month? And how many are multiple accounts?
How many F2P games that report accounts/registered players have players logging 5 hours a month? Farmville, 120 million players. What is a player? Is it someone who accepted their friends invitation to play the game so that their friend could get some bonus seeds?
And this is just a WoW phenomenon?
Honestly who gives a shit how many people play.
Its a lot, is that good enough for you?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
And yet....
3 of 5 highest scored raidguilds, at the moment, is Chinese caferaiders...
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YOu know why we are interested in revenue and the financial statements? Because the split of those 8-10m is not given anywhere. So one of the best way to ascertain how many of those are actual $15, is to look at earnings.
Your post on the other hand is only based on what you "think" or what you want to "believe". Basically your agenda is to say that you think that most of WoW subs play only 4 hours a month and pay nothing, whereas there is only very few US/EU subscribers. HOwever, you are only basing this on your ulterior motive to make WoW look bad.
So this is why people who are actually looking to have an approximate view of the split to an extent, look at financial statements.
Your last sentence is pretty much what people who are clueless say. To me it sounds like "I am cluess and I would live with my suspicions".
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
To me it matters how much they make. WoW makes 1-1.1 billion per year. That makes for more money than the next 10 MMOs combined. I am am happy with that.
What Blizzard are saying is genuine information. The company is listed and its financial statements are audited. The definition of a subscriber hasn't changed during the life of the game. This allows for comparison between years.
It doesn't matter how actively people play a game. If I played WoW only 10 hours a month and still paid my $15 sub, what the hell do you care? Should we put a limit of 100 hours a month so that excessive players don't play too much?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I never argued it wasn't successful, but otherwise...
This is the best post yet in this thread on the counterpoint, and with it I can comfortably agree to disagree. You say "new supply of players", but that figure of "10 million players!" is self perpetuating, like a conveyor. For every player who tries it and leaves, there's one who looks at that and says, "hmm, 10 million people play it, maybe I will like it". I think, because you're relenting we don't see the full picture in those figures, you're working to understand my point and I appreciate it.
This post is about 5 years too late.
It is an accepted fact that WoW went back over 10M+ subs. How these subs are counted was a valid issue 5 (or even 10) years ago, but is a mute point now. This is a baseline number used by the industry to show the activity. The only real comparison of this number, is itself, over time.
It has been established over the years (from information disclosed to investors/stockholders) that the % of this count in china ranges from 2/3 (66.6%) to 3/4 (75%). It varies based on events in the different regions (new expansion releases, changing in the publisher in china, etc). It would be reasonable to assume that with the latest expansion released in the west, that currently 1/3 of the 10M are in the west (and that this is where the increase was with the release of the expansion).
However, non of this really matters. WoW lost the title of the largest online game years ago, and as such how its playerbase is distributed is only relevant if there are broad changes in the distribution. At this time these numbers are only good for comparing against themselves.
Where can I find references or citations for such data? I would very much like to staple it to a couple foreheads.
edit: Oh, hmm. This is interesting. http://www.wowwiki.com/WoW_population_by_country
In 2011, of approximately 10.4 mil , 3 mil were in us and canada. over 4.5 mil were in "asian realms", with another 800k in "other", some part of which are asian realms. So, almost half were in asian realms, far less than a third were USA, the remainder mostly in Europe. No citation is given, though....
So, 70%+ were from outside the USA but not necessarily China. I can run with that.
I wonder when we will see similar, more contemporary stats.
further edit: Oh, hmm, look at this, characters logged on in the last 30 days on US servers....2,155,669
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/realmstats.php
I wonder how many characters per account. Hmmmm....
So, if http://www.warcraftrealms.com/realmstats.php is to be believed, let's say each player logs on an average of 2 (?) characters per month, although I'm sure people are going to argue (rawr! mah WoW! how dare you, troll! I log on point 5 character per month!) Many log on only 1 or 2, some 3, very few 5 or 7 but I know people who do. So, I don't think it's unreasonable to arrive at an arbitrary number of 2.
So, 2,155,669 / 2 is 1,077,834 (and .5 for the guy who logs on 2 hours a month...) logged on USA servers over the last 30 days.
I rate my post "LoL". I get 2 points and a badge. X gets a square.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYb6rwtOx4Q
I think those approximations match up with the most recent financial report and are accurate.
3 million U.S. and Canada players.
Not sure what your point is but it is hardly surprising. I have played in games with (non-Chinese) café groups in other games and I have found such groups to be committed, dedicated and very focused. And in my experience great folk to know as well.
Actually those numbers seem accurate and pretty standard. I heard about roughly the same statistics from MMO developers in regards of active player numbers in subscription based games. Usually 10% of subscribers log into the game on a regular basis and about 30-35% log in at least monthly. These percentages are not official data but they are based on insider publisher data from the past decade and reportedly this tendency hasn't changed much over time. So regarding US data showing that approximately 1/3 of 3 million US subscribers log in within the past 30 days seems accurate and standard to monthly subscription based games. That's why I said earlier that the number of subscriptions is way higher than the number of people actually using the service they pay for.
Chinese sub numbers are not surprising either since even Blizzard stated in some of their quarterly financial reports that about half of their sub numbers are from Asia.
The difference between the people analyzing the ATVI financial reports and you analyzing warcraftrealms and looking at wowwiki's numbers for WoW's population by country(from 4 years ago which has absolutely 0 relevance to the here and now) is that the financial reports are official documented numbers, the others are merely estimates and guesses and in wowwiki's case doesn't even disclose how they came to those figures.
From the bottom of warcraftrealms, i quote "The ratios are color coded as follows. If the number you see is red, then there have been less than 50 data snapshots submitted for this server/faction in the last 30 days. This is BAD and we need more info on those realm/factions! If the number you see is in yellow, then there have been more than 50, but less than 100. This is better, but we really could use more data. If the number is green then there have been more than 100 snapshots submitted in the last 30 days. This is fairly acceptible to give reliable data!"
What does this mean, well just that. They took snapchats of the servers and if the number is red, they did it less than 50 times in a given month, yellow, more than 50 but less than 100, and green simply more than 100 in the last 30 days. So it is by no means as reliable as looking at ATVI's financial reports because those numbers cannot lie, they are not estimates, they are exact. The websites you posted are mere estimates on independent websites who may have had a flawed procedure, or they might not. But thats the problem, we don't know because they're estimates.
Likewise the wowwiki link is completely irrelevant since it was 4 freaking years ago which is about when WoW's population was at its lowest.
But knowing you, you're not going to accept that you only went searching for information and websites that lined up with whatever preconceived notion you seem to have about WoW's subs and how its nothing that amazing and people should stop talking about it like its impressive. So, even my post is meaningless since I know nothing is going to change your mind. Nothing at all, you're simply bigoted when it comes to WoW and its pretty pathetic honestly since its just a fucking game. But I suppose people have done worse.
Happy refuting, I won't be taking any further part in it past this.
But again this is guesswork.
I have been around since the start and i am still there, one of the lucky ones to qualify for a Blizzard statue recently, and that little gesture alone shows that there has been a core of players around for a long time within the game. I have people who have been in my current guild since it's creation over five years ago who are still there full time and some who pop in and out.
Blizzard released a stat that there have been over 100 million players over it's lifetime so far, but i have always maintained that there has been a core of maybe 3.5Mill people (western subs) who have always been around on and off since the beginning. That is just my view from experience in the game and from Blizzard reports, but which ever way you cut it, you will struggle to find another company that has been as open about it's player base than Blizzard.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
Now please guys stop feeding the troll.
The difference is that Adjuvant1's approximations could be correct, whereas Superman has forgotten WoW Korea and WoW Taiwan from his analysis and thus the only way his analysis could arrive to correct result is by making another equally large mistake that would coincidentally correct the numbers.