Lets look at this logically and see that the poster's world is some world that doesn't exist as reality doesn't agree with it.
MAD RUSH TO BEST GEAR IN SLOT <= Majority and an accomplishment
So if the 'majority' is in a 'mad rush to best gear in slot', then naturally, all MMOs should have the majority of players doing the 'hard' content.
Hang on a sec... No they aren't!
e.g. WoW's LFR players are way larger than those who do the hard raiding "Mythic".
As an interesting experiment lets flip this and say that what the poster wrote is true and the majority of players are doing the 'hard' content.
Well....I think you and 'Scot' can have an interesting conversation as he complains endlessly about the 'easy F2P money grab garbage the MMO industry have become'.
Good luck!
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
Lets look at this logically and see that the poster's world is some world that doesn't exist as reality doesn't agree with it.
MAD RUSH TO BEST GEAR IN SLOT <= Majority and an accomplishment
So if the 'majority' is in a 'mad rush to best gear in slot', then naturally, all MMOs should have the majority of players doing the 'hard' content.
The best gear per slot per build for an avatar's current level comes from all different places depending on the MMO. It might be a quest reward, which probably does not count as hard content. It might be a crafted item, which might take a lot of effort to save up money or ingredients for, but still wouldn't be counted as hard content. It might be a boss drop from the most commonly-run dungeon for that level character - might or might not count as hard content.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
Sandparks will eventually be the "it" thing for MMORPGs, as neither a true Themepark nor true Sandbox can do as well as an MMORPG taking elements from both. The trick is, what elements and how to implement them.
I bet MOBAs and instanced games can do better.
The trick is to ditch the basic old MMORPG design, and innovate. Isn't new ideas what people here want?
It has to be incredibly immersive and engaging like ESO for me to like a bit. WoW/Rift/Wildstar all just felt even WORSE than just killing creatures to level.
The alternative isn't an alternative... it's to let both styles of leveling be possible equally. I shouldn't be forced to do quest I think are stupid just as I should be forced to level on the same 5 mobs for 10 levels. Out of the 30+ MMOs I've played I've found more friends while trying to group up and kill mobs, which in turn made the game more fun then running quests by myself.
Quest should be adventures...not a means to level.
You can go the EVE route, which is basically AFK leveling, you can mix EVE + skill based for leveling, you can mix quests, and you can mix mob killin parties. ADD some frikken variety. In Lineage 2 I could go grind mobs or go find a ton of bosses and grind bosses instead. Add the ability to do that as well as quests.
The real world is quite immersive to a lot of people, very believable. To me, the real world is as shallow as the rest of the genres you would see attempt to bury the MMORPG.
'Very believable' What the...
No offence, but if you don't believe in the 'real world', you require some professional help.
I find the 'shallow' thing a bit odd. It is infinitely easy to sit in front of your computer and click the mouse button than to study and gain real knowledge. Or go outside and exercise to get stronger / quicker etc.
It takes my wife 1 hour in Sims 3 to become a doctor in that game.
She had to study / intern 10 years in real life.
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
To me, the "real world" is a nonsense circus show. To me, it does not matter what field of study people go into, nor how long it takes to get to "the top" of that field... 99% are still incompetent. That is due to "real world" experience. From what I have seen, whether it is the medical field, the legal / law field, the education system, the field of physics, or the MMORPG industry, this still holds true. I highly doubt that changes when one looks into other fields as well.
Irrelevant text
If 99% of doctors are 'incompetent', there would be a lot more deaths in hospitals.
You post physics theories and declare the real world as 'nonsense' but don't seem to understand what numbers mean. Which is 'ROFL' worthy.
You know what's believable? MMOs!
You know what's not believable? Real Life!
Yeah..... *shakes head*
To bring this topic back on track; I don't particularly like non-linear' questing because you can't tell a good long story that way.
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
I actually prefer linear questing. otherwise you end up running back and forth a lot.
and how non-linear would it be for the level 50 to be questing the same area as a level 10? they both would be in that area because of a linear quest, would they not? unless the quest objective had multiple ways to complete it. but would that really be non-linear? that would just be more options to the player. and after completing the quest they would all get the same next quest.
EQ dungeons were great. They were tiered so the front was generally easier and the back was the hardest part. You could walk into a dungeon and solo near the front, get a friend and maybe go pull the easiest boss, then get a third and move around some until you found a full group and could do the rest. Farming in the dungeons was a lot more fun than just doing an instance and the respawns being randomized meant you never really felt safe. They were also one of the few games that got individual mob difficulty correct. A game like WoW the normal mob is too easy and so they had to artificially make the dungeon mobs harder thus forcing you into mostly balanced group only content.
Having said all that EQ suffered from a huge lack of content and thus the dungeons were overcrowded. There is nothing that says you can't fix that by just creating more dungeons or even duplicating them or adding procedural dungeons etc. This isn't a problem of the system they used, it is a problem of being an early MMORPG and not providing enough content because of it. At most points in EQs early life there were only 2 or 3 dungeons for all of the max level players and that simply was not enough.
Instances are the lazy way to fix this thus the devs went that way.
As for needing to play EQ for 4 hours a day, that is just silly. I played less than that and was in a top raiding guild on our server. People tend to exaggerate these things quite a bit.
Sandparks will eventually be the "it" thing for MMORPGs, as neither a true Themepark nor true Sandbox can do as well as an MMORPG taking elements from both. The trick is, what elements and how to implement them.
I bet MOBAs and instanced games can do better.
The trick is to ditch the basic old MMORPG design, and innovate. Isn't new ideas what people here want?
That is just it. The actual "MMORPG playerbase" does not want MOBAs or Instances (with the only exception I would guess, of optional dungeon and-or raid zone Instances, such that randomize content and scale to level for the sake of replay value of the same dungeons and raid zones available through open world). The actual "MMORPG playerbase" are not in the same category nor interested in the same genres as "Gamers." The "MMORPG playerbase" are not "Gamers."
You (and albeit plenty more people that share your opinion, but it is just an opinion) are obviously not an "MMORPGer." "MMORPGers" want MMORPGs. Period. I am not interested in another genre, at all, whatsoever. Other genres have no real depth, and worse still, no potential for real depth.
(lots of big claims about humanity or what-not deleted)
No .. i am not a MMORPGer .. i don't restrict my entertainment to a small slice of gaming, or even just gaming. MMOs are just games.
and given how popular MOBAs are .. and how devs are chasing them, i would say there aren't enough "real" MMORPGers to support anything but a niche market. And if so, you can say goodbye to new AAA developments, unless you cater to some of the more "normal" gamers.
Heck, isn't that what is happening already? Not only devs goes for a bigger market (and often ditch the open world), even websites are broadening their coverage and appeal.
And while you don't like and diss other genre ... i would say it is about fun .. not about depth. A lot of gamers are not looking for another life, they are looking for passing some time in a fun way.
What you should do, is reread and take in all of what was stated. You obviously failed to do so.
There are MMOs out there that tried the whole 'small quests done by lots of players lead up to big change'. Wasn't my preference. I prefer a more tightly controlled narrative.
And this hospital thingy is hilarious. So you expect incompetency from 99% of doctors but expect 'normal' people who play MMOs to read quest text and do it? Really?
Don't you grow out of the whole 'I know everything!' phase after college?
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
Questing should not be a means of leveling. Questing should offer lore, promote world exploration and tell a story that helps connect the player with the game world and its inhabitants.
Everquest did questing properly early on. Quests scattered about everywhere. You learned of quests by proactively talking with npcs, sometimes many npcs, before the real quest began. Many times one npc wouldn't tell you who to talk to next, you had to listen to what they said and use good old fashioned intuition and common sense. Where a quest would send you was almost completely unpredictable and unless you read a website, you weren't even sure whether the quest would yield a good item or just a little experience and some lore.
As far as zones are concerned, EQ also did that right. They made every zone dangerous by scattering high level mobs about. Permitted you had a full group, you might be able to take those mobs down but they were death for anyone else. The zones also connected somewhat randomly. You could be in a level 15 zone that connected to a level 40+ dungeon. There were also many zones that had areas with a variety of different level mobs. You could level for 30+ levels without ever leaving one area if you so chose. The world was dangerous and you couldn't just run anywhere haphazardly.
Absolutely agree with most of your points. I think the mechanics of questing should change. But I do believe that questing should be an option to gain experience but not necessarily be the sole deterrent to gain experience.
I do agree that Everquest did questing a proper way. Question in Everquest was actually quite rare sometimes and you did it for the lore/mystery of what you'll find. Why? Because the game was an immersive experience. You cared about the lore and the world.
There was no one correct path to level in what zone you want in Everquest. I had a vast array of options to where I wanted to level or explore. The world was dangerous! I mean come on, Kithacor at night with those undead. That was cool!
All in all, I would always run into a variety of different leveled characters, even in Eastern Commonlands or even North Ro, or even Butcherblock. I truly believe the mmo philosophy of Everquest in some areas should still be revered but still improved on with no innovated gameplay.
Classic Everquest till about Omens of War, no mmo can hold a candle to it. Just can't. (Save for any other old school mmo pre 2004).
Comments
Lets look at this logically and see that the poster's world is some world that doesn't exist as reality doesn't agree with it.
MAD RUSH TO BEST GEAR IN SLOT <= Majority and an accomplishment
So if the 'majority' is in a 'mad rush to best gear in slot', then naturally, all MMOs should have the majority of players doing the 'hard' content.
Hang on a sec... No they aren't!
e.g. WoW's LFR players are way larger than those who do the hard raiding "Mythic".
As an interesting experiment lets flip this and say that what the poster wrote is true and the majority of players are doing the 'hard' content.
Well....I think you and 'Scot' can have an interesting conversation as he complains endlessly about the 'easy F2P money grab garbage the MMO industry have become'.
Good luck!
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
The best gear per slot per build for an avatar's current level comes from all different places depending on the MMO. It might be a quest reward, which probably does not count as hard content. It might be a crafted item, which might take a lot of effort to save up money or ingredients for, but still wouldn't be counted as hard content. It might be a boss drop from the most commonly-run dungeon for that level character - might or might not count as hard content.
I bet MOBAs and instanced games can do better.
The trick is to ditch the basic old MMORPG design, and innovate. Isn't new ideas what people here want?
It has to be incredibly immersive and engaging like ESO for me to like a bit. WoW/Rift/Wildstar all just felt even WORSE than just killing creatures to level.
The alternative isn't an alternative... it's to let both styles of leveling be possible equally. I shouldn't be forced to do quest I think are stupid just as I should be forced to level on the same 5 mobs for 10 levels. Out of the 30+ MMOs I've played I've found more friends while trying to group up and kill mobs, which in turn made the game more fun then running quests by myself.
Quest should be adventures...not a means to level.
You can go the EVE route, which is basically AFK leveling, you can mix EVE + skill based for leveling, you can mix quests, and you can mix mob killin parties. ADD some frikken variety. In Lineage 2 I could go grind mobs or go find a ton of bosses and grind bosses instead. Add the ability to do that as well as quests.
'Very believable' What the...
No offence, but if you don't believe in the 'real world', you require some professional help.
I find the 'shallow' thing a bit odd. It is infinitely easy to sit in front of your computer and click the mouse button than to study and gain real knowledge. Or go outside and exercise to get stronger / quicker etc.
It takes my wife 1 hour in Sims 3 to become a doctor in that game.
She had to study / intern 10 years in real life.
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
If 99% of doctors are 'incompetent', there would be a lot more deaths in hospitals.
You post physics theories and declare the real world as 'nonsense' but don't seem to understand what numbers mean. Which is 'ROFL' worthy.
You know what's believable? MMOs!
You know what's not believable? Real Life!
Yeah..... *shakes head*
To bring this topic back on track; I don't particularly like non-linear' questing because you can't tell a good long story that way.
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
I actually prefer linear questing. otherwise you end up running back and forth a lot.
and how non-linear would it be for the level 50 to be questing the same area as a level 10? they both would be in that area because of a linear quest, would they not? unless the quest objective had multiple ways to complete it. but would that really be non-linear? that would just be more options to the player. and after completing the quest they would all get the same next quest.
EQ dungeons were great. They were tiered so the front was generally easier and the back was the hardest part. You could walk into a dungeon and solo near the front, get a friend and maybe go pull the easiest boss, then get a third and move around some until you found a full group and could do the rest. Farming in the dungeons was a lot more fun than just doing an instance and the respawns being randomized meant you never really felt safe. They were also one of the few games that got individual mob difficulty correct. A game like WoW the normal mob is too easy and so they had to artificially make the dungeon mobs harder thus forcing you into mostly balanced group only content.
Having said all that EQ suffered from a huge lack of content and thus the dungeons were overcrowded. There is nothing that says you can't fix that by just creating more dungeons or even duplicating them or adding procedural dungeons etc. This isn't a problem of the system they used, it is a problem of being an early MMORPG and not providing enough content because of it. At most points in EQs early life there were only 2 or 3 dungeons for all of the max level players and that simply was not enough.
Instances are the lazy way to fix this thus the devs went that way.
As for needing to play EQ for 4 hours a day, that is just silly. I played less than that and was in a top raiding guild on our server. People tend to exaggerate these things quite a bit.
No .. i am not a MMORPGer .. i don't restrict my entertainment to a small slice of gaming, or even just gaming. MMOs are just games.
and given how popular MOBAs are .. and how devs are chasing them, i would say there aren't enough "real" MMORPGers to support anything but a niche market. And if so, you can say goodbye to new AAA developments, unless you cater to some of the more "normal" gamers.
Heck, isn't that what is happening already? Not only devs goes for a bigger market (and often ditch the open world), even websites are broadening their coverage and appeal.
And while you don't like and diss other genre ... i would say it is about fun .. not about depth. A lot of gamers are not looking for another life, they are looking for passing some time in a fun way.
There are MMOs out there that tried the whole 'small quests done by lots of players lead up to big change'. Wasn't my preference. I prefer a more tightly controlled narrative.
And this hospital thingy is hilarious. So you expect incompetency from 99% of doctors but expect 'normal' people who play MMOs to read quest text and do it? Really?
Don't you grow out of the whole 'I know everything!' phase after college?
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
Absolutely agree with most of your points. I think the mechanics of questing should change. But I do believe that questing should be an option to gain experience but not necessarily be the sole deterrent to gain experience.
I do agree that Everquest did questing a proper way. Question in Everquest was actually quite rare sometimes and you did it for the lore/mystery of what you'll find. Why? Because the game was an immersive experience. You cared about the lore and the world.
There was no one correct path to level in what zone you want in Everquest. I had a vast array of options to where I wanted to level or explore. The world was dangerous! I mean come on, Kithacor at night with those undead. That was cool!
All in all, I would always run into a variety of different leveled characters, even in Eastern Commonlands or even North Ro, or even Butcherblock. I truly believe the mmo philosophy of Everquest in some areas should still be revered but still improved on with no innovated gameplay.
Classic Everquest till about Omens of War, no mmo can hold a candle to it. Just can't. (Save for any other old school mmo pre 2004).