All questing is linear ... Only way to change it is the dev to have events and etc.. and not announce any of it .. have a group of GMs that play NPCs ... UO and AC used to do this regularly before .. EQ also but not as much ... The human factor and imgination gives endless possibilities with this...
I guess I can sort of see their point of view but I don't really understand how something can be rewarding to accomplish if it isn't difficult. The two seem inextricably intertwined to me. If the game is easy, how could it be rewarding to do well?
I assume because most people don't try and look for 'accomplishments' while playing a VIDEO GAME?
I can understand trying to look for an 'accomplishment' while doing a marathon or losing weight or writing a novel etc.
But playing a video game?
For me video games are an entertainment product like a 'movie' or 'book'. I generally don't look for 'accomplishments' in those either. I'd say the majority of people look at video games the same way I do.
That doesn't mean people like you don't exists, Dark souls sold millions. But there's more who think like 'me' than 'you'.
wow .. this is eerie .... you almost sound like me. (although i probably will say "I don't look for "accomplishments" while playing a video game?" instead .. since i don't know if most people do).
Ah yes, you do not look to accomplish anything in a video game and you think you are in the majority, saying what you said even is true?
MAD RUSH TO MAX LEVEL CAP <= Majority and an accomplishment
MAD RUSH TO BEST GEAR IN SLOT <= Majority and an accomplishment
BUILDING BEST CLASS / SKILL BUILDS <= Majority and an accomplishment
DEVOURING ALL PVE CONTENT <= Majority and an accomplishment
BEING THE BEST AS CAN BE IN PVP (Even riding the coattails of TOP PVP Guilds to do so) <= Majority and an accomplishment
GLITCHING, CHEATING, HACKING, SCRIPTING, THIRD PARTY PROGRAMMING, BLACK MARKET (as none of these things would be a real issue in MMORPGs if not true) <= Collectively ... Majority and a means to an accomplishment
So please, come again?
Personally I think the whole point of an RPG is to have a virtual world where I can actuall solve problems and conquer challenges, since in the real world most problems I encounter have no solutions.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
EQ 1 had the Oasis of Marr, a lowbie area with mobs called Hill Giants that would kill anyone level appropriate for the zone in under 5 seconds if it wandered close enough. It also had a group of undead spectres that would do the same. Someone could accidentally wander into the spectre group, escape by running but the spectres would follow for awhile. On the spectres' return trip to their spot they could aggro lowbies and wipe them out. A mummy could wander by and give you a disease that would slow your HP regen to an absolute crawl for 45 minutes unless you had a friendly cleric around to clear it.
It made the zone intense. People communicated in shouts letting everyone know where the Hill Giant was or if the spectres were loose. Dying was a pain in the ass and could set you back twenty minutes in XP loss and corpse retrieval. I loved it, but I know there is a large majority of gamers today who don't like setbacks and intensity like that. To them it is tedious, to me it is tedious to play a game without risk and community born of a common danger.
I guess I can sort of see their point of view but I don't really understand how something can be rewarding to accomplish if it isn't difficult. The two seem inextricably intertwined to me. If the game is easy, how could it be rewarding to do well?
EQ had lots of zones like this. OT, DSP, Unrest, CoM, Feerrott, RM, EC, WC, MM,
You also had quite a few options per level range... (which continued to expand with each expansion)
Just to get to 30 I might end up seeing g fay, bb, cb, lfay, fob, kurns, ot, ww unrest, hph, hk... with many other options... there was no follow this specific path garbage.
Originally posted by filmoret First would you explain what you call linear questing and then tell us what exactly is the alternative? The only thing I can figure is a zone mixed with all kinds of level mobs. I don't see how a mmo can exist if it doesn't have zones that have certain level mobs in those zones. How would you feel as a lvl 20 running into a level 90 group of mobs? I think the market has done an excellent job in placing super strong mobs in every area. But mobs that are unkillable is more realistic however do you really as a lvl 90 want to visit a level 20 area just to kill that group of mobs placed there?
Yes, I do want mixed mobs in every zone. It makes no sense that the creatures of the world all clustered in convenient grocery shopping order. I do want to have to pay attention before I pull, I want games to go back to requiring thought and strategy. I want to have to make decisions beyond which appearance set I like best.
EQ 1 had the Oasis of Marr, a lowbie area with mobs called Hill Giants that would kill anyone level appropriate for the zone in under 5 seconds if it wandered close enough. It also had a group of undead spectres that would do the same. Someone could accidentally wander into the spectre group, escape by running but the spectres would follow for awhile. On the spectres' return trip to their spot they could aggro lowbies and wipe them out. A mummy could wander by and give you a disease that would slow your HP regen to an absolute crawl for 45 minutes unless you had a friendly cleric around to clear it.
It made the zone intense. People communicated in shouts letting everyone know where the Hill Giant was or if the spectres were loose. Dying was a pain in the ass and could set you back twenty minutes in XP loss and corpse retrieval. I loved it, but I know there is a large majority of gamers today who don't like setbacks and intensity like that. To them it is tedious, to me it is tedious to play a game without risk and community born of a common danger.
I guess I can sort of see their point of view but I don't really understand how something can be rewarding to accomplish if it isn't difficult. The two seem inextricably intertwined to me. If the game is easy, how could it be rewarding to do well?
I think people don't like the hole premise that you lose progress if you die. What you are describing is not difficult. Those Giants and spectres one shot because they are much higher level. Other genres don't need to rely on unnecessary time sinks. Time sinks and situations where mobs 30 levels above you one shot you are not difficult, they are just frustrating for people who have limited time to play. EQ was never a game for anyone who couldn't dedicate a bare minimum of 4 hours a day, usually people would play it for 10 hours plus. This is why people often joked that people who played evercrack were basement dwellers
In other genres games are difficult and exciting because they require skill and they are actually difficult. The MMOs of old were not difficukt per se, they just took ages to get anything done.
Difficulty is really defined differently for each person. I would find this more difficult. Knowing at any giving time something may run across or spawn on me that will kill me. Then I get to run back naked, which again makes it more difficult to get my corpse through even conned mobs. Some would define doing 100s of quests to level up difficult... I would define it as boring. (Another aspect that makes things easier is now we know a mobs exact level (few exceptions) and if its a normal mob or a elite mob...)
I personally prefer the time sinks, because honestly if I am playing a game... I am playing it for something to do. Which is why I love games with heavy grinding. I am not into this whole I got 15 minutes I need every game to cater to my lack of time availability.
As far as the 4 hour comment... that is not true. I started when I was 9 years old and I got to play maybe 1-2 hours every weekend split between multiple sessions... and that was shared time with my brother who also was playing. Eventually I ended up dedicating more time to the game but I still enjoyed the game very much even just playing on the weekends... and never for 4 hours. I remember me and my brother would stay up waiting to use the computer my entire family shared, then we would each play 1-2 hours often times the group we were in we would attempt to replace each other to minimize downtime.
It was not until I reached end game that my play time actually decreased. I almost only played when I raided... and again it would increase when a new expansion came out and I had catching up to do.
I agree to an extent that old MMO's lack skill. I agree to the fact that it was fairly easy to play the game, but it was more difficult to learn your role. The tab target model allowed for people to actually strategize rather than turn into zergs of people constantly clicking. But thinking of all the MMO's I played what did the skill base system really turn into?
AoC: Arrow Key combos
WoW: 140 different abilities to use.
Numerous clones of WoW. FPS style... really nothing amazing worth losing the strategic part of gameplay they took out to be more immersed into the games combat.
May want to watch EQN is you are stick of Linear questing, They have not revealed their questing system in full but what they are hinting at in this area could be very exciting. I dream of a day when a MMO has horizontal progression and linear questing is not the main stay of the game.
Originally posted by filmoret First would you explain what you call linear questing and then tell us what exactly is the alternative? The only thing I can figure is a zone mixed with all kinds of level mobs. I don't see how a mmo can exist if it doesn't have zones that have certain level mobs in those zones. How would you feel as a lvl 20 running into a level 90 group of mobs? I think the market has done an excellent job in placing super strong mobs in every area. But mobs that are unkillable is more realistic however do you really as a lvl 90 want to visit a level 20 area just to kill that group of mobs placed there?
I guess just add one more reason why people should have played FFXI before ever touching WOW.
First of all to answer the what if mentioning mobs of all levels.
I will use a few examples over MANY from FFXI.There was a camp pulling Sandlizards,well right on top of that area a VERY bad Dragon Boss could spawn.That Dragon had true sight,meaning once you are in his range he will kill you,no hiding from him no running from him.
One of the msot famous camps was in the jungle pulling Madragoras,well in that same zone there were Goblins called Goblin Smithy.Although he was not out of range,he was really bad if get him on top of a Mandy pull.The Smithy would constantly roam around the camps and with decent speed so he could sneak up on you rather quick.
Although you never want to aggro those dangerous situtations i will be honest,when yo udid it brought about excitement and danger and fun.
If you are not playing for some sort of danger and fun,what is left a level number?See there is the difference,running linear quests there is almost NO danger and definitely no challenge.So linear questing ends up as nothing more than a simpleton tool to grab a level number.
BTW LINEAR means you follow a direct pattern from quest to quest,each one designed to pop up another yellow marker over the NPC's head after you complete the last quest.What makes it even worse is there are not multiple areas to at least offer some variety.
None the less what happens in a linear questing game is EVERYONE is following the same paths and same game play.In a grouped camping game you should have SEVERAL options of choice,you are not bound by yellow markers over npc heads.
Once again i'll use the most in depth game ever FFXi.There was a common CRAB camp,you could not choose that camp if you did not have a Red mage to dispel his defensive abilities.However there were lots of other options from Goblin camps to Bat camps to Beetle camps it was endless,as long as you were willing to seek out a new camp ,plenty of CHOICE.Linear questing does NOT give you choice.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
EQ 1 had the Oasis of Marr, a lowbie area with mobs called Hill Giants that would kill anyone level appropriate for the zone in under 5 seconds if it wandered close enough. It also had a group of undead spectres that would do the same. Someone could accidentally wander into the spectre group, escape by running but the spectres would follow for awhile. On the spectres' return trip to their spot they could aggro lowbies and wipe them out. A mummy could wander by and give you a disease that would slow your HP regen to an absolute crawl for 45 minutes unless you had a friendly cleric around to clear it.
It made the zone intense. People communicated in shouts letting everyone know where the Hill Giant was or if the spectres were loose. Dying was a pain in the ass and could set you back twenty minutes in XP loss and corpse retrieval. I loved it, but I know there is a large majority of gamers today who don't like setbacks and intensity like that. To them it is tedious, to me it is tedious to play a game without risk and community born of a common danger.
I guess I can sort of see their point of view but I don't really understand how something can be rewarding to accomplish if it isn't difficult. The two seem inextricably intertwined to me. If the game is easy, how could it be rewarding to do well?
I think people don't like the hole premise that you lose progress if you die. What you are describing is not difficult. Those Giants and spectres one shot because they are much higher level. Other genres don't need to rely on unnecessary time sinks. Time sinks and situations where mobs 30 levels above you one shot you are not difficult, they are just frustrating for people who have limited time to play. EQ was never a game for anyone who couldn't dedicate a bare minimum of 4 hours a day, usually people would play it for 10 hours plus. This is why people often joked that people who played evercrack were basement dwellers
In other genres games are difficult and exciting because they require skill and they are actually difficult. The MMOs of old were not difficukt per se, they just took ages to get anything done.
Actually, pulling in a dungeon like Lower Guk safely could be quite difficult. And had to have a damn good enchanter + healers if you expected to survive a bad pull in there. If you could manage it and got lucky, you'd get some nice gear. The gear wasn't just handed out to everyone like it is now.
I played 2-10 hours a week and progressed just fine.
I think it is likely that commenters like this never played early EQ, which is fine of course. It also just fine if it is not your cup of tea, many people love WoW and I find that game tedious.
Questing should not be a means of leveling. Questing should offer lore, promote world exploration and tell a story that helps connect the player with the game world and its inhabitants.
Everquest did questing properly early on. Quests scattered about everywhere. You learned of quests by proactively talking with npcs, sometimes many npcs, before the real quest began. Many times one npc wouldn't tell you who to talk to next, you had to listen to what they said and use good old fashioned intuition and common sense. Where a quest would send you was almost completely unpredictable and unless you read a website, you weren't even sure whether the quest would yield a good item or just a little experience and some lore.
As far as zones are concerned, EQ also did that right. They made every zone dangerous by scattering high level mobs about. Permitted you had a full group, you might be able to take those mobs down but they were death for anyone else. The zones also connected somewhat randomly. You could be in a level 15 zone that connected to a level 40+ dungeon. There were also many zones that had areas with a variety of different level mobs. You could level for 30+ levels without ever leaving one area if you so chose. The world was dangerous and you couldn't just run anywhere haphazardly.
Actually, pulling in a dungeon like Lower Guk safely could be quite difficult. And had to have a damn good enchanter + healers if you expected to survive a bad pull in there. If you could manage it and got lucky, you'd get some nice gear. The gear wasn't just handed out to everyone like it is now.
I played 2-10 hours a week and progressed just fine.
I think it is likely that commenters like this never played early EQ, which is fine of course. It also just fine if it is not your cup of tea, many people love WoW and I find that game tedious.
Not when there are 50 groups camping the bosses. I was there camping SMR ... and there is nothing difficult about it since the other 49 groups would love to "help you" get the boss asap so they don't have to wait one second longer for their turn.
And yes, you need a lot of luck. I was there for 6 hours and got nothing .. and realize that it was not a game, but a boring job. So i quit EQ.
WoW is also getting boring ... i would much rather play hack-n-slash games like D3 where you can have 15 min of fun combat, and some cool loot without treating a game like a life.
Ah yes, you do not look to accomplish anything in a video game and you think you are in the majority, saying what you said even is true?
MAD RUSH TO MAX LEVEL CAP <= Majority and an accomplishment
MAD RUSH TO BEST GEAR IN SLOT <= Majority and an accomplishment
BUILDING BEST CLASS / SKILL BUILDS <= Majority and an accomplishment
DEVOURING ALL PVE CONTENT <= Majority and an accomplishment
BEING THE BEST AS CAN BE IN PVP (Even riding the coattails of TOP PVP Guilds to do so) <= Majority and an accomplishment
GLITCHING, CHEATING, HACKING, SCRIPTING, THIRD PARTY PROGRAMMING, BLACK MARKET (as none of these things would be a real issue in MMORPGs if not true) <= Collectively ... Majority and a means to an accomplishment
So please, come again?
So 'playing the game' is an accomplishment?
What the heck? Do you even think before you write stuff?
By this logic, someone feels 'accomplished' for reading a book or watching a movie or playing a video game.
I would like to meet someone who says 'Yeah, I feel accomplishment cause I watched a movie'.
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
Actually, pulling in a dungeon like Lower Guk safely could be quite difficult. And had to have a damn good enchanter + healers if you expected to survive a bad pull in there. If you could manage it and got lucky, you'd get some nice gear. The gear wasn't just handed out to everyone like it is now.
I played 2-10 hours a week and progressed just fine.
I think it is likely that commenters like this never played early EQ, which is fine of course. It also just fine if it is not your cup of tea, many people love WoW and I find that game tedious.
Not when there are 50 groups camping the bosses. I was there camping SMR ... and there is nothing difficult about it since the other 49 groups would love to "help you" get the boss asap so they don't have to wait one second longer for their turn.
And yes, you need a lot of luck. I was there for 6 hours and got nothing .. and realize that it was not a game, but a boring job. So i quit EQ.
WoW is also getting boring ... i would much rather play hack-n-slash games like D3 where you can have 15 min of fun combat, and some cool loot without treating a game like a life.
So Nari.. what is the real issue here? Was it because you felt entitled to receive the SMR just because you were there? Was it becuase your reward took a certain time that YOU personlly don't like? What is the time limit for reward compensation... 5 minutes? 1 hour? 1 day? And do you always have to be rewarded LOOT each time you play? Can you play a game without an actual reward?
If your goal is the fun combat, then who cares if you get the SMR or not? and how long it takes.. I"m sensing a true freudian attitudge that what it really comes down to is, "I want my reward and I want it now.".. Which is OK I guess for you, if that is your cup of tea, but don't frown upon others that think that is a bit weird or off.. Like me, I play in a golf league for the FUN of it. It last ALL SUMMER LONG, and we might win the reward, or might not.. But it doesn't matter, I"m there for the fun of the game, not the reward..
I played EQ too from 1999 to a little past 2003? I enjoyed it for the fun of the game, not some loot or reward.. If fact I found the changing loot system, a cancer.. Devs started playing Monty Hall in giving out gifts left and right.. Did EQ has some issues like quest camping for loot? YES to a degree.. And why is WoW getting boring.. It has everything you want.. Run a RAID = get reward.. OH WAIT.. could it be that YOUR needed item might not drop and you felt your time is wasted? and that RAIDS take longer then 15 minutes?
EDIT: btw.. I play D3 as well, and do you know how often I actually get meaningful LOOT.. not often.. I sell my blues anymore, and salvage my yellows, and I might rarely get a green items I can use.. I don't even play D3 all that much anymore.. I've done the linear train ride too many times, and I'm not into PvP, so now what? lol
EQ 1 had the Oasis of Marr, a lowbie area with mobs called Hill Giants that would kill anyone level appropriate for the zone in under 5 seconds if it wandered close enough. It also had a group of undead spectres that would do the same. Someone could accidentally wander into the spectre group, escape by running but the spectres would follow for awhile. On the spectres' return trip to their spot they could aggro lowbies and wipe them out. A mummy could wander by and give you a disease that would slow your HP regen to an absolute crawl for 45 minutes unless you had a friendly cleric around to clear it.
It made the zone intense. People communicated in shouts letting everyone know where the Hill Giant was or if the spectres were loose. Dying was a pain in the ass and could set you back twenty minutes in XP loss and corpse retrieval. I loved it, but I know there is a large majority of gamers today who don't like setbacks and intensity like that. To them it is tedious, to me it is tedious to play a game without risk and community born of a common danger.
I guess I can sort of see their point of view but I don't really understand how something can be rewarding to accomplish if it isn't difficult. The two seem inextricably intertwined to me. If the game is easy, how could it be rewarding to do well?
I think people don't like the hole premise that you lose progress if you die. What you are describing is not difficult. Those Giants and spectres one shot because they are much higher level. Other genres don't need to rely on unnecessary time sinks. Time sinks and situations where mobs 30 levels above you one shot you are not difficult, they are just frustrating for people who have limited time to play. EQ was never a game for anyone who couldn't dedicate a bare minimum of 4 hours a day, usually people would play it for 10 hours plus. This is why people often joked that people who played evercrack were basement dwellers
In other genres games are difficult and exciting because they require skill and they are actually difficult. The MMOs of old were not difficukt per se, they just took ages to get anything done.
Difficulty is really defined differently for each person. I would find this more difficult. Knowing at any giving time something may run across or spawn on me that will kill me. Then I get to run back naked, which again makes it more difficult to get my corpse through even conned mobs. Some would define doing 100s of quests to level up difficult... I would define it as boring. (Another aspect that makes things easier is now we know a mobs exact level (few exceptions) and if its a normal mob or a elite mob...)
I personally prefer the time sinks, because honestly if I am playing a game... I am playing it for something to do. Which is why I love games with heavy grinding. I am not into this whole I got 15 minutes I need every game to cater to my lack of time availability.
As far as the 4 hour comment... that is not true. I started when I was 9 years old and I got to play maybe 1-2 hours every weekend split between multiple sessions... and that was shared time with my brother who also was playing. Eventually I ended up dedicating more time to the game but I still enjoyed the game very much even just playing on the weekends... and never for 4 hours. I remember me and my brother would stay up waiting to use the computer my entire family shared, then we would each play 1-2 hours often times the group we were in we would attempt to replace each other to minimize downtime.
It was not until I reached end game that my play time actually decreased. I almost only played when I raided... and again it would increase when a new expansion came out and I had catching up to do.
I agree to an extent that old MMO's lack skill. I agree to the fact that it was fairly easy to play the game, but it was more difficult to learn your role. The tab target model allowed for people to actually strategize rather than turn into zergs of people constantly clicking. But thinking of all the MMO's I played what did the skill base system really turn into?
AoC: Arrow Key combos
WoW: 140 different abilities to use.
Numerous clones of WoW. FPS style... really nothing amazing worth losing the strategic part of gameplay they took out to be more immersed into the games combat.
I have been playing Everquest Free to Play lately and I've also been playing World of Warcraft again a bit just to refresh my memory on both.
I can say it's almost impossible to die in WoW when going through solo quests. Everything is basically spelled out for you. The interface is a lot cleaner.
It's fairly easy to die in Everquest even with all the equipment and quests they added. The world is still contains far more complex zones, dungeons, structures, interface, and skill system even though it's far older. The quests are not at all straight forward and they don't really guide you around. The old world seems like it still doesn't have any quests at all. Most of the experiences seems to still be gained by grinding mobs. Even for me the grinding can be difficult. I have no problem with the complexities of Everquest, but I do think it can take a long time to level up without having someone to buff you. Even with the mercenary to help you out. One of the great things about Everquest though is that buffs actually have a large impact and high level people are almost always willing to buff you.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle May want to watch EQN is you are stick of Linear questing, They have not revealed their questing system in full but what they are hinting at in this area could be very exciting. I dream of a day when a MMO has horizontal progression and linear questing is not the main stay of the game.
I was following EQN closely when they first starting doing the round table... but it quickly seemed to turn into a game I am not interested in. I will very likely watch it as it gets closer but a lot of the round table responses led me to believe the game was not for me.
Fast travel- many options to minimize downtime (catering to the 15-30mins at a time players)
Guns- We will make them fit the lore
Death Penalty- Minimal
Can change your class easily (can change your class in general)- biggest turn off. That is what more than 1 character slot is for.
Buyback on vendors for people who do not pay attention. This was a huge part of EQ going to vendors and potentially finding a nice buy to use or resell.
Talk of more than 1 guild. Hate this idea... the idea behind guilds is lost. They are too easy to create, they need to bring back meaning to a guild by making it more difficult for people to form guilds... not any alt can create a guild.
There answer to the changing appearance of armor basically sounded like cash shop to change appearance... removing the uniqueness of obtaining and wearing items lots of players want. (Of course I expected this with FTP- prefer subscription but I realize there is more money in cash shop)
Other things I was more or less indifferent on- modable ui, holidays, etc as long as it wasn't like this modern hand out system... I always did enjoy in EQ doing the quests to get a holiday only item even if it was just a minor illusion or an item I would replace easily.
Basically, I gather that they are trying to cater to the overly casual MMO players. And that kind of game is not for me... I have less time now than I did when I was younger playing EQ... but when I play a game I plan to play for a few hours on end. I do not feel the need to randomly say I got 12 minutes, I guess I can go play this game for 10 mins or so.
My attention span is a bit longer than the "new modern casual players" and I do not feel the need to be doing something different every 10-15 minutes because... I am not an insane person; I do not see clouds cover the sun making it darker in my room and randomly decide its time to go dig a hole, eat a sandwich, scrub the toilet, turn the fan on, stare at the floor, turn my car on, check to ensure I turned my car off last night, take a shower, ring the door bell, plant a tree, wash my hands, make my bed, go to bed, start the dryer with nothing in it, look under my bed for monsters, etc... I can focus on one thing for moderate to long time periods.
So Nari.. what is the real issue here? Was it because you felt entitled to receive the SMR just because you were there? Was it becuase your reward took a certain time that YOU personlly don't like? What is the time limit for reward compensation... 5 minutes? 1 hour? 1 day? And do you always have to be rewarded LOOT each time you play? Can you play a game without an actual reward?
If your goal is the fun combat, then who cares if you get the SMR or not? and how long it takes.. I"m sensing a true freudian attitudge that what it really comes down to is, "I want my reward and I want it now.".. Which is OK I guess for you, if that is your cup of tea, but don't frown upon others that think that is a bit weird or off.. Like me, I play in a golf league for the FUN of it. It last ALL SUMMER LONG, and we might win the reward, or might not.. But it doesn't matter, I"m there for the fun of the game, not the reward..
I play plenty of games without actual reward. The problem (real issue as you pointed out) here is thatthat EQ is boring .. .and i should have left way before 6 hours .. or even before 2 hours .. but there are "friends" camping with me. So social pressure actually adds to the boredom because i did not feel "right" to leave (and it was 100% my fault putting myself in such a position).
Hence now i prefer games solo, or at most strangers and i can just hit the quit button whenever i want.
So the cardinal sin of EQ (to me) is that it is boring .. and inconvenient. I farm for stuff in D3 too .. but it is not really boring farming. It is fun combat, and the farming (or deciding what to farm as opposed to just random combat) adds a bit of meta gaming, which i like.
So i am actually not railing against grinding, nor loot, nor time (except the sessions needs to be short, games don't deserve hours of my time .. but a certain loot can take many sessions to drop) .. i am railing against boredom, and dependency on strangers.
What the heck? Do you even think before you write stuff?
By this logic, someone feels 'accomplished' for reading a book or watching a movie or playing a video game.
I would like to meet someone who says 'Yeah, I feel accomplishment cause I watched a movie'.
lol .. i am a very "accomplished" marvel movies watcher. I have watched the Avengers at least 5 times
Yeah, i am with you. Personally i don't view doing stuff in video games (except competitive e-sports) as accomplishments. But they are pretty good illusions, and i don't mind if others do.
"Playing the Game" is not what I said, is it? Reaching max level cap, acquiring best in slot gears, building the best of one's class and-or skill build, the devouring of pve content, being the best as can be in pvp... ALL ARE GOALS SET BY PLAYERS.
I agree with this, and one of my major design goals is to create a game experience where players can set goals, then the game can recognize the player's choice of goal, and praise the player appropriately when they achieve steps toward that goal or the goal itself. This kind of interactivity which increases player satisfaction in a unique way is going to be at the heart of sandpark popularity, once sandparks get up to speed as a genre.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
Comments
Personally I think the whole point of an RPG is to have a virtual world where I can actuall solve problems and conquer challenges, since in the real world most problems I encounter have no solutions.
Linear questing has now become so far out of hand we are down to 5 or less zones for all levels.
EQ had lots of zones like this. OT, DSP, Unrest, CoM, Feerrott, RM, EC, WC, MM,
You also had quite a few options per level range... (which continued to expand with each expansion)
Just to get to 30 I might end up seeing g fay, bb, cb, lfay, fob, kurns, ot, ww unrest, hph, hk... with many other options... there was no follow this specific path garbage.
You could go to
Yes, I do want mixed mobs in every zone. It makes no sense that the creatures of the world all clustered in convenient grocery shopping order. I do want to have to pay attention before I pull, I want games to go back to requiring thought and strategy. I want to have to make decisions beyond which appearance set I like best.
Difficulty is really defined differently for each person. I would find this more difficult. Knowing at any giving time something may run across or spawn on me that will kill me. Then I get to run back naked, which again makes it more difficult to get my corpse through even conned mobs. Some would define doing 100s of quests to level up difficult... I would define it as boring. (Another aspect that makes things easier is now we know a mobs exact level (few exceptions) and if its a normal mob or a elite mob...)
I personally prefer the time sinks, because honestly if I am playing a game... I am playing it for something to do. Which is why I love games with heavy grinding. I am not into this whole I got 15 minutes I need every game to cater to my lack of time availability.
As far as the 4 hour comment... that is not true. I started when I was 9 years old and I got to play maybe 1-2 hours every weekend split between multiple sessions... and that was shared time with my brother who also was playing. Eventually I ended up dedicating more time to the game but I still enjoyed the game very much even just playing on the weekends... and never for 4 hours. I remember me and my brother would stay up waiting to use the computer my entire family shared, then we would each play 1-2 hours often times the group we were in we would attempt to replace each other to minimize downtime.
It was not until I reached end game that my play time actually decreased. I almost only played when I raided... and again it would increase when a new expansion came out and I had catching up to do.
I agree to an extent that old MMO's lack skill. I agree to the fact that it was fairly easy to play the game, but it was more difficult to learn your role. The tab target model allowed for people to actually strategize rather than turn into zergs of people constantly clicking. But thinking of all the MMO's I played what did the skill base system really turn into?
AoC: Arrow Key combos
WoW: 140 different abilities to use.
Numerous clones of WoW. FPS style... really nothing amazing worth losing the strategic part of gameplay they took out to be more immersed into the games combat.
Good games too.
Some people just need their hand held their entire life.
There is nothing more disappointing than starting a game and seeing this:
!
Same , it seem like i can't get in the game with that icon anymore.
It show me what a game have , quest hub with most of time you play solo then forced to jump to instances and start gear treadmill .
Unless the game have something good that enough for me to go through the quest hub to enjoy , i drop the game right after i see the quest hub icon .
I guess just add one more reason why people should have played FFXI before ever touching WOW.
First of all to answer the what if mentioning mobs of all levels.
I will use a few examples over MANY from FFXI.There was a camp pulling Sandlizards,well right on top of that area a VERY bad Dragon Boss could spawn.That Dragon had true sight,meaning once you are in his range he will kill you,no hiding from him no running from him.
One of the msot famous camps was in the jungle pulling Madragoras,well in that same zone there were Goblins called Goblin Smithy.Although he was not out of range,he was really bad if get him on top of a Mandy pull.The Smithy would constantly roam around the camps and with decent speed so he could sneak up on you rather quick.
Although you never want to aggro those dangerous situtations i will be honest,when yo udid it brought about excitement and danger and fun.
If you are not playing for some sort of danger and fun,what is left a level number?See there is the difference,running linear quests there is almost NO danger and definitely no challenge.So linear questing ends up as nothing more than a simpleton tool to grab a level number.
BTW LINEAR means you follow a direct pattern from quest to quest,each one designed to pop up another yellow marker over the NPC's head after you complete the last quest.What makes it even worse is there are not multiple areas to at least offer some variety.
None the less what happens in a linear questing game is EVERYONE is following the same paths and same game play.In a grouped camping game you should have SEVERAL options of choice,you are not bound by yellow markers over npc heads.
Once again i'll use the most in depth game ever FFXi.There was a common CRAB camp,you could not choose that camp if you did not have a Red mage to dispel his defensive abilities.However there were lots of other options from Goblin camps to Bat camps to Beetle camps it was endless,as long as you were willing to seek out a new camp ,plenty of CHOICE.Linear questing does NOT give you choice.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Actually, pulling in a dungeon like Lower Guk safely could be quite difficult. And had to have a damn good enchanter + healers if you expected to survive a bad pull in there. If you could manage it and got lucky, you'd get some nice gear. The gear wasn't just handed out to everyone like it is now.
I played 2-10 hours a week and progressed just fine.
I think it is likely that commenters like this never played early EQ, which is fine of course. It also just fine if it is not your cup of tea, many people love WoW and I find that game tedious.
Questing should not be a means of leveling. Questing should offer lore, promote world exploration and tell a story that helps connect the player with the game world and its inhabitants.
Everquest did questing properly early on. Quests scattered about everywhere. You learned of quests by proactively talking with npcs, sometimes many npcs, before the real quest began. Many times one npc wouldn't tell you who to talk to next, you had to listen to what they said and use good old fashioned intuition and common sense. Where a quest would send you was almost completely unpredictable and unless you read a website, you weren't even sure whether the quest would yield a good item or just a little experience and some lore.
As far as zones are concerned, EQ also did that right. They made every zone dangerous by scattering high level mobs about. Permitted you had a full group, you might be able to take those mobs down but they were death for anyone else. The zones also connected somewhat randomly. You could be in a level 15 zone that connected to a level 40+ dungeon. There were also many zones that had areas with a variety of different level mobs. You could level for 30+ levels without ever leaving one area if you so chose. The world was dangerous and you couldn't just run anywhere haphazardly.
Not when there are 50 groups camping the bosses. I was there camping SMR ... and there is nothing difficult about it since the other 49 groups would love to "help you" get the boss asap so they don't have to wait one second longer for their turn.
And yes, you need a lot of luck. I was there for 6 hours and got nothing .. and realize that it was not a game, but a boring job. So i quit EQ.
WoW is also getting boring ... i would much rather play hack-n-slash games like D3 where you can have 15 min of fun combat, and some cool loot without treating a game like a life.
So 'playing the game' is an accomplishment?
What the heck? Do you even think before you write stuff?
By this logic, someone feels 'accomplished' for reading a book or watching a movie or playing a video game.
I would like to meet someone who says 'Yeah, I feel accomplishment cause I watched a movie'.
It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard
Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi
So Nari.. what is the real issue here? Was it because you felt entitled to receive the SMR just because you were there? Was it becuase your reward took a certain time that YOU personlly don't like? What is the time limit for reward compensation... 5 minutes? 1 hour? 1 day? And do you always have to be rewarded LOOT each time you play? Can you play a game without an actual reward?
If your goal is the fun combat, then who cares if you get the SMR or not? and how long it takes.. I"m sensing a true freudian attitudge that what it really comes down to is, "I want my reward and I want it now.".. Which is OK I guess for you, if that is your cup of tea, but don't frown upon others that think that is a bit weird or off.. Like me, I play in a golf league for the FUN of it. It last ALL SUMMER LONG, and we might win the reward, or might not.. But it doesn't matter, I"m there for the fun of the game, not the reward..
I played EQ too from 1999 to a little past 2003? I enjoyed it for the fun of the game, not some loot or reward.. If fact I found the changing loot system, a cancer.. Devs started playing Monty Hall in giving out gifts left and right.. Did EQ has some issues like quest camping for loot? YES to a degree.. And why is WoW getting boring.. It has everything you want.. Run a RAID = get reward.. OH WAIT.. could it be that YOUR needed item might not drop and you felt your time is wasted? and that RAIDS take longer then 15 minutes?
EDIT: btw.. I play D3 as well, and do you know how often I actually get meaningful LOOT.. not often.. I sell my blues anymore, and salvage my yellows, and I might rarely get a green items I can use.. I don't even play D3 all that much anymore.. I've done the linear train ride too many times, and I'm not into PvP, so now what? lol
I have been playing Everquest Free to Play lately and I've also been playing World of Warcraft again a bit just to refresh my memory on both.
I can say it's almost impossible to die in WoW when going through solo quests. Everything is basically spelled out for you. The interface is a lot cleaner.
It's fairly easy to die in Everquest even with all the equipment and quests they added. The world is still contains far more complex zones, dungeons, structures, interface, and skill system even though it's far older. The quests are not at all straight forward and they don't really guide you around. The old world seems like it still doesn't have any quests at all. Most of the experiences seems to still be gained by grinding mobs. Even for me the grinding can be difficult. I have no problem with the complexities of Everquest, but I do think it can take a long time to level up without having someone to buff you. Even with the mercenary to help you out. One of the great things about Everquest though is that buffs actually have a large impact and high level people are almost always willing to buff you.
I was following EQN closely when they first starting doing the round table... but it quickly seemed to turn into a game I am not interested in. I will very likely watch it as it gets closer but a lot of the round table responses led me to believe the game was not for me.
Fast travel- many options to minimize downtime (catering to the 15-30mins at a time players)
Guns- We will make them fit the lore
Death Penalty- Minimal
Can change your class easily (can change your class in general)- biggest turn off. That is what more than 1 character slot is for.
Buyback on vendors for people who do not pay attention. This was a huge part of EQ going to vendors and potentially finding a nice buy to use or resell.
Talk of more than 1 guild. Hate this idea... the idea behind guilds is lost. They are too easy to create, they need to bring back meaning to a guild by making it more difficult for people to form guilds... not any alt can create a guild.
There answer to the changing appearance of armor basically sounded like cash shop to change appearance... removing the uniqueness of obtaining and wearing items lots of players want. (Of course I expected this with FTP- prefer subscription but I realize there is more money in cash shop)
Other things I was more or less indifferent on- modable ui, holidays, etc as long as it wasn't like this modern hand out system... I always did enjoy in EQ doing the quests to get a holiday only item even if it was just a minor illusion or an item I would replace easily.
Basically, I gather that they are trying to cater to the overly casual MMO players. And that kind of game is not for me... I have less time now than I did when I was younger playing EQ... but when I play a game I plan to play for a few hours on end. I do not feel the need to randomly say I got 12 minutes, I guess I can go play this game for 10 mins or so.
My attention span is a bit longer than the "new modern casual players" and I do not feel the need to be doing something different every 10-15 minutes because... I am not an insane person; I do not see clouds cover the sun making it darker in my room and randomly decide its time to go dig a hole, eat a sandwich, scrub the toilet, turn the fan on, stare at the floor, turn my car on, check to ensure I turned my car off last night, take a shower, ring the door bell, plant a tree, wash my hands, make my bed, go to bed, start the dryer with nothing in it, look under my bed for monsters, etc... I can focus on one thing for moderate to long time periods.
I play plenty of games without actual reward. The problem (real issue as you pointed out) here is thatthat EQ is boring .. .and i should have left way before 6 hours .. or even before 2 hours .. but there are "friends" camping with me. So social pressure actually adds to the boredom because i did not feel "right" to leave (and it was 100% my fault putting myself in such a position).
Hence now i prefer games solo, or at most strangers and i can just hit the quit button whenever i want.
So the cardinal sin of EQ (to me) is that it is boring .. and inconvenient. I farm for stuff in D3 too .. but it is not really boring farming. It is fun combat, and the farming (or deciding what to farm as opposed to just random combat) adds a bit of meta gaming, which i like.
So i am actually not railing against grinding, nor loot, nor time (except the sessions needs to be short, games don't deserve hours of my time .. but a certain loot can take many sessions to drop) .. i am railing against boredom, and dependency on strangers.
lol .. i am a very "accomplished" marvel movies watcher. I have watched the Avengers at least 5 times
Yeah, i am with you. Personally i don't view doing stuff in video games (except competitive e-sports) as accomplishments. But they are pretty good illusions, and i don't mind if others do.
I agree with this, and one of my major design goals is to create a game experience where players can set goals, then the game can recognize the player's choice of goal, and praise the player appropriately when they achieve steps toward that goal or the goal itself. This kind of interactivity which increases player satisfaction in a unique way is going to be at the heart of sandpark popularity, once sandparks get up to speed as a genre.