I don't know how many cared to read my post about my class design philosophy, but I am a big supporter on classes. Like some have previously said, the reason why classes seem so cookie cutter is solely based on bland combat mechanics. I still the think trinity class design is something that should be approved on and works well for group centric gameplay.
Once the we get more intuitive combat mechanics and more creative classes we'll see a change of mind and players will once again enjoy the trinity.
Yep it comes down to good game design but too many have blamed ideas like Trinity for example because they have been playing games by poor quality developers.
Tanaka was the last quality designer but he is no longer.Square ruined his reputation because the big shots wanted to push that game out before it was ever ready,they had to shove someone under the bus.
Nobody not before nor after have made as much depth in game play as he did.Now we get what grid maps and dungeon finders and repeat SUPER easy daily quests,if you can call them quests.
Seriously nobody is going to say they have encountered tough quests,so why would the developer need to create elaborate system to support sub-par game play?Answer is they don't and won't,instead they just skip game design 101 and head directly to end game where it becomes about Re-raise and pots really sad game design and people are supporting that.
When a NEW developer comes along,guess who they look to hire?Experience and guess what experience the majority have?Making shallow WOW clones ,so don't expect anything good to come along for a long time.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Good Class Design encourages good Community and Team Play
I disagree. Not every game is about community and team play. "Good" design is about having fun. If players want to have fun solo, then it is about design neat abilities, mechanics, and show-casing them in good animation design.
True, not every game is about community. Games such as Dragon Age, Fallout and Elder Scrolls: Oblivion are excellent examples of games that allow complete focus on a single player.
That is because those are solo RPGS. Correct statement. I don't get why people who hate group play and yet still play mmo?
For MMO's, however, community building is mandatory for the long term health of the game.
Agreed completely! Like I said in my post, good class design helps encourage a great community. MMORPG are suppose to be a social group based game. Everquest to me had the best community of the all of the mmos I have played. WoW has one of the worst communities. The difference, EQ had more grouping content where as WoW has solo content. If there is no reason to interact with others then the community aspect of the game will suffer.
Even if an individual players chooses a solo play style, they are still part of the games community. To this end, there is nothing wrong with certain classes better at solo play than team play. Druids in Everquest's early days are a good example. They were not as good at healing as Clerics, less DPS than wizards, rogues or rangers and not as effective at buffing/debuffing as enchanters or shaman. Druids, however, could track down their desired target, quad kite and self heal if something went wrong.
Druids where a hybrid class that was one of the few that were very good at soloing. The Everquest Hybrid classes where more viewed as a support based class. Druids where essentially support healers and support dps. Because they can fulfill two rolls they couldn't excel at either, thus balancing the class for group play. The reason why the Cleric was the best healer is essentially because it was a Pure Healer class and didn't have the utility spells to solo or do significant damage.
I see the whole 'class' discussion as a mechanism that places restrictions on characters. These restrictions help provide some mechanisms for the developer to balance the game. A wizard does massive damage, so they're good to have around to kill monsters, but they can't wear plate armor, so they don't survive fights too well. This creates a degree of dependence on other players. A character can't do everything exceptionally well, so there is a need for specialists. A class definition therefore provides a list of positive and negative attributes. These can be skills, spells, or abilities. They help delineate the character's place (role) within the game world (typically limited to combat-related functions).
The class system, then, determines how this character 'fits' into the world, providing their specialization. It is a rudimentary (but incomplete) depiction of an inhabitant of the game world. It is a convenient shorthand for a specific set of skills shared by a group of characters.
But are restrictions a bad thing? A class is the avatar for a defined role that is the makeup of a group. That is what I always thought it was intended to be, even in old school rpg games and early in the mmorpg genre.
I don't know what they were thinking, but I get the impression that classes were created for fun more then anything in the original D&D. The classes are obviously not that balanced. The Rogue is fairly weak in combat. They do have a nice role in terms of disarming traps, stealing, etc. I believe what happened original is these people were large fans of things like the Lord of the Rings and wanted to enjoy their favorite characters roles in that type of world. The classes just seem a way to flesh out what the different characters did. There were also multi and dual classes. I think things went downhill from there because the multi and dual classes were always far more powerful then the single class counterparts and could take on multiple roles.
This is the common mistake that is made by class designers. The tricky balance between pure and hybrid classes. Pure classes are suppose to excel at one role whereas a hybrid class has multiple roles and can't excel at either.
Plus, the mmo genre know is saturated with just regular gamers who were brought into this genre by WoW. Pre WoW you had mmo gamers who loved this genre and cared about it. The mind set for a lot of these new mmo gamers is instant gratification, and I have to do a lot of damage even though I can tank or heal. It's not fair that I can't do enough damage as a pure dps class. That is the venom which is ruining class design today.
I don't know how many cared to read my post about my class design philosophy, but I am a big supporter on classes. Like some have previously said, the reason why classes seem so cookie cutter is solely based on bland combat mechanics. I still the think trinity class design is something that should be improved on and works well for group centric gameplay.
Once the we get more intuitive combat mechanics and more creative classes we'll see a change of mind and players will once again enjoy the trinity.
Yep it comes down to good game design but too many have blamed ideas like Trinity for example because they have been playing games by poor quality developers.
Tanaka was the last quality designer but he is no longer.Square ruined his reputation because the big shots wanted to push that game out before it was ever ready,they had to shove someone under the bus.
Nobody not before nor after have made as much depth in game play as he did.Now we get what grid maps and dungeon finders and repeat SUPER easy daily quests,if you can call them quests.
Seriously nobody is going to say they have encountered tough quests,so why would the developer need to create elaborate system to support sub-par game play?Answer is they don't and won't,instead they just skip game design 101 and head directly to end game where it becomes about Re-raise and pots really sad game design and people are supporting that.
When a NEW developer comes along,guess who they look to hire?Experience and guess what experience the majority have?Making shallow WOW clones ,so don't expect anything good to come along for a long time.
Approved... I meant improved lol. Fail on my part. Anyways...
That is what I am attempting to do. For many who, I had great conversations with know my game design elements and philosophy tell me that this is the direction the genre should have taken. I even befriended an old Programmer Engineer who worked on Burning Crusade and Wraith tell me that my vision is the next step in the mmorpg genre. Finding out that Unity has some interesting mmo presets and templates to use. Right now my plan is to get a demo out of 3 gameplay unique and innovative gameplay mechanics. So if you're looking for MMO's to go back to the old school mmo philosophy but with new age gameplay, I am your guy!
I don't know how many cared to read my post about my class design philosophy, but I am a big supporter on classes. Like some have previously said, the reason why classes seem so cookie cutter is solely based on bland combat mechanics. I still the think trinity class design is something that should be improved on and works well for group centric gameplay.
Once the we get more intuitive combat mechanics and more creative classes we'll see a change of mind and players will once again enjoy the trinity.
Yep it comes down to good game design but too many have blamed ideas like Trinity for example because they have been playing games by poor quality developers.
Tanaka was the last quality designer but he is no longer.Square ruined his reputation because the big shots wanted to push that game out before it was ever ready,they had to shove someone under the bus.
Nobody not before nor after have made as much depth in game play as he did.Now we get what grid maps and dungeon finders and repeat SUPER easy daily quests,if you can call them quests.
Seriously nobody is going to say they have encountered tough quests,so why would the developer need to create elaborate system to support sub-par game play?Answer is they don't and won't,instead they just skip game design 101 and head directly to end game where it becomes about Re-raise and pots really sad game design and people are supporting that.
When a NEW developer comes along,guess who they look to hire?Experience and guess what experience the majority have?Making shallow WOW clones ,so don't expect anything good to come along for a long time.
Approved... I meant improved lol. Fail on my part. Anyways...
That is what I am attempting to do. For many who, I had great conversations with know my game design elements and philosophy tell me that this is the direction the genre should have taken. I even befriended an old Programmer Engineer who worked on Burning Crusade and Wraith tell me that my vision is the next step in the mmorpg genre. Finding out that Unity has some interesting mmo presets and templates to use. Right now my plan is to get a demo out of 3 gameplay unique and innovative gameplay mechanics. So if you're looking for MMO's to go back to the old school mmo philosophy but with new age gameplay, I am your guy!
This is moving away from classes a bit, but I would like to see that. I feel that you don't need to bring necessarily bring back large time sinks, but it would be nice to bring back non combat elements of games past. Things like having underwater exploration in large dangerous dungeons and utility spells/potions that allow traversing those locations. Having levitation with a purpose like being able travers from one continent to another that is unreachable or to reach a floating continent in the sky. Having food and drink. Having day and night cycles where certain things only happen at certain times. More interpersonal trading of objects and crafting. Basically things of that nature. I know a lot of people won't agree, but it's what I would like to see.
There are really 2 reasons for having classes at all in a MMO:
1. Balance. Balancing any system where you level up each possible skill induvidually is impossible and it is pretty hard when you allow players to pick skills from a list themselves. There is alway a huge chance that with no classes will close to everyone play one out of 3 standard archetypes because they get far better.
There are pen and paper system that have great ways of designing your own class or unique character, like GURPS, Shadowrun and many more but systems like that needs a lot of work to be converted successfully to a MMO.
2. Simplicity. Many players don't atually like creating their own builds/classes from scratch.
When you do have classes the most important thing is that each class use it's own mechanics and don't feel like any other class in the game. They also needs to be useful in all the types of content tha game provides, a class that is useless in raids or PvP just ain't good.
Having similar classes in the same game is bad game design, it is better to have few unique classes with much specialization options. Not all classes needs to be fun to a specific player but when one class or 2 have extremely few high level characters it is time to redesign it.
If I can't make my build from scratch and am forced to play with what the developer gives me I'll tire and quit quickly. I need to be able to create and develop my character. The ability to do so is a basic pillar of RPGs. The ability to be able to define my role is something I will not play without.
I don't want to derail being able to do what I said above is why I play ESO. The control I have over my stats, armor, weapons, and skill is unmatched in the industry.
There are really 2 reasons for having classes at all in a MMO:
1. Balance. Balancing any system where you level up each possible skill induvidually is impossible and it is pretty hard when you allow players to pick skills from a list themselves. There is alway a huge chance that with no classes will close to everyone play one out of 3 standard archetypes because they get far better.
There are pen and paper system that have great ways of designing your own class or unique character, like GURPS, Shadowrun and many more but systems like that needs a lot of work to be converted successfully to a MMO.
2. Simplicity. Many players don't atually like creating their own builds/classes from scratch.
When you do have classes the most important thing is that each class use it's own mechanics and don't feel like any other class in the game. They also needs to be useful in all the types of content tha game provides, a class that is useless in raids or PvP just ain't good.
Having similar classes in the same game is bad game design, it is better to have few unique classes with much specialization options. Not all classes needs to be fun to a specific player but when one class or 2 have extremely few high level characters it is time to redesign it.
If I can't make my build from scratch and am forced to play with what the developer gives me I'll tire and quit quickly. I need to be able to create and develop my character. The ability to do so is a basic pillar of RPGs. The ability to be able to define my role is something I will not play without.
I don't want to derail being able to do what I said above is why I play ESO. The control I have over my stats, armor, weapons, and skill is unmatched in the industry.
I would ask you a question.
What do you feel your role is in the world of ESO?
I felt the opposite in ESO. I tried playing a few different ways and didn't find anything that was interesting. It felt like all you got to choose were a few skills here and there. Everyone was basically DPS of a different flavor.
On the flip side if you have a class you can say I am part of a sect of Paladins which are devoted to destroying all evil in the world. It's very defined and gives you some purpose in game. Purpose other then just following some quests around. The quests that do exist are likely to be directed in a more interesting way because they will revolve around a definitive idea of what your class is IMO. Otherwise you just get the generic mishmash of quests that everyone else in game gets to do.
There are really 2 reasons for having classes at all in a MMO:
1. Balance. Balancing any system where you level up each possible skill induvidually is impossible and it is pretty hard when you allow players to pick skills from a list themselves. There is alway a huge chance that with no classes will close to everyone play one out of 3 standard archetypes because they get far better.
There are pen and paper system that have great ways of designing your own class or unique character, like GURPS, Shadowrun and many more but systems like that needs a lot of work to be converted successfully to a MMO.
2. Simplicity. Many players don't atually like creating their own builds/classes from scratch.
When you do have classes the most important thing is that each class use it's own mechanics and don't feel like any other class in the game. They also needs to be useful in all the types of content tha game provides, a class that is useless in raids or PvP just ain't good.
Having similar classes in the same game is bad game design, it is better to have few unique classes with much specialization options. Not all classes needs to be fun to a specific player but when one class or 2 have extremely few high level characters it is time to redesign it.
If I can't make my build from scratch and am forced to play with what the developer gives me I'll tire and quit quickly. I need to be able to create and develop my character. The ability to do so is a basic pillar of RPGs. The ability to be able to define my role is something I will not play without.
I don't want to derail being able to do what I said above is why I play ESO. The control I have over my stats, armor, weapons, and skill is unmatched in the industry.
Sadly, few pople think like that. They could of course add templates instead of classes for people who want to be told how to make their character but I think most devs don't think it would be popular enough to actually be worth it.
ESO is hardly unmatched though, UO was the king of this thinking but there are still others aroundthat offers great diversity. Most of them are for some reasons full loot hardcore PvP games though.
Creating my own class would be far more fun than a pre-made but only if it is done right. You will need a system that keeps it somewhat balanced but fun, and with many good possible builds instead of just a few. Loads of pen and paper RPGs have done this but I honestly never played a MMO that got it right.
There are really 2 reasons for having classes at all in a MMO:
1. Balance. Balancing any system where you level up each possible skill induvidually is impossible and it is pretty hard when you allow players to pick skills from a list themselves. There is alway a huge chance that with no classes will close to everyone play one out of 3 standard archetypes because they get far better.
There are pen and paper system that have great ways of designing your own class or unique character, like GURPS, Shadowrun and many more but systems like that needs a lot of work to be converted successfully to a MMO.
2. Simplicity. Many players don't atually like creating their own builds/classes from scratch.
When you do have classes the most important thing is that each class use it's own mechanics and don't feel like any other class in the game. They also needs to be useful in all the types of content tha game provides, a class that is useless in raids or PvP just ain't good.
Having similar classes in the same game is bad game design, it is better to have few unique classes with much specialization options. Not all classes needs to be fun to a specific player but when one class or 2 have extremely few high level characters it is time to redesign it.
If I can't make my build from scratch and am forced to play with what the developer gives me I'll tire and quit quickly. I need to be able to create and develop my character. The ability to do so is a basic pillar of RPGs. The ability to be able to define my role is something I will not play without.
I don't want to derail being able to do what I said above is why I play ESO. The control I have over my stats, armor, weapons, and skill is unmatched in the industry.
I see the whole 'class' discussion as a mechanism that places restrictions on characters. These restrictions help provide some mechanisms for the developer to balance the game. A wizard does massive damage, so they're good to have around to kill monsters, but they can't wear plate armor, so they don't survive fights too well. This creates a degree of dependence on other players. A character can't do everything exceptionally well, so there is a need for specialists. A class definition therefore provides a list of positive and negative attributes. These can be skills, spells, or abilities. They help delineate the character's place (role) within the game world (typically limited to combat-related functions).
The class system, then, determines how this character 'fits' into the world, providing their specialization. It is a rudimentary (but incomplete) depiction of an inhabitant of the game world. It is a convenient shorthand for a specific set of skills shared by a group of characters.
But are restrictions a bad thing? A class is the avatar for a defined role that is the makeup of a group. That is what I always thought it was intended to be, even in old school rpg games and early in the mmorpg genre.
He didn't say they were a bad thing. He said classes are about setting restrictions to create sets of abilities & skills which create distinct playstyles and which can be balanced against one another.
This is precisely the way you should view classes imo.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I'm going to reply to both yours and aesperus's posts together. As you pointed out you are born with your race, but your class is a choice. You choose your class based on what role you want to play in game. When I say role I mean more your place in the game world then are you going to be a tank, dps, healer, etc. That may be part of your role, but your role is more defined by what your class does in game. That may be any variety of different things, but likely it is something that will be fairly clearly defined and told to you at the start of the game when you are selected a class to play as. I also feel that it is important to have these things defined in stone to an extent to give the world more character. Each race and class will be predefined by what it believes as a whole in the culture. Without this it has no identity short of healer or human with pointy ears. Basically you are told what each race and class believes / does primarily at the start of the game and you choose depending on how you want to play. You don't choose something and then say well I don't like the description of the race, but I like pointy ears so I'm going to choose this and play this way. IMO that defeats the purpose of making these races and classes in the first place and you are left with just managing a bunch of skills, abilities, and loot like you have in most MMOs now.
If you want a lore focused game that is the right way to do, but it is from easy to present that in a godd way.
You can't just add a zillion cutscenes in a MMO to set the mode, some works but constantly pausing the gameplay only works in single player games.
You could present it partly with class specific quests and DEs, and you could let npcs react in certain ways to a character walking by based on race and class, preferably npcs who aren't questgivers. Good NPCs might cheer or shout out encouraging things to a paladin who walks by for example. Hostile animals might not be hostile to druids and rangers. Small stuff like that are easy to make but makes the world feel more alive while letting the players get more into their character.
Of course not all stuff need to be positive. A thief might get a DE thta spawns a bunch of bounty hunters or watchmens who tries to arrest her, the pally might get attack by evil things and an half elf might get racial slurs in an evil human town.
The entire game don't have to be overful with this stuff either, that might instead annoy the players but some flavor things will let the character stand out.
There are really 2 reasons for having classes at all in a MMO:
1. Balance. Balancing any system where you level up each possible skill induvidually is impossible and it is pretty hard when you allow players to pick skills from a list themselves. There is alway a huge chance that with no classes will close to everyone play one out of 3 standard archetypes because they get far better.
There are pen and paper system that have great ways of designing your own class or unique character, like GURPS, Shadowrun and many more but systems like that needs a lot of work to be converted successfully to a MMO.
2. Simplicity. Many players don't atually like creating their own builds/classes from scratch.
When you do have classes the most important thing is that each class use it's own mechanics and don't feel like any other class in the game. They also needs to be useful in all the types of content tha game provides, a class that is useless in raids or PvP just ain't good.
Having similar classes in the same game is bad game design, it is better to have few unique classes with much specialization options. Not all classes needs to be fun to a specific player but when one class or 2 have extremely few high level characters it is time to redesign it.
If I can't make my build from scratch and am forced to play with what the developer gives me I'll tire and quit quickly. I need to be able to create and develop my character. The ability to do so is a basic pillar of RPGs. The ability to be able to define my role is something I will not play without.
I don't want to derail being able to do what I said above is why I play ESO. The control I have over my stats, armor, weapons, and skill is unmatched in the industry.
I would ask you a question.
What do you feel your role is in the world of ESO?
I felt the opposite in ESO. I tried playing a few different ways and didn't find anything that was interesting. It felt like all you got to choose were a few skills here and there. Everyone was basically DPS of a different flavor.
On the flip side if you have a class you can say I am part of a sect of Paladins which are devoted to destroying all evil in the world. It's very defined and gives you some purpose in game. Purpose other then just following some quests around. The quests that do exist are likely to be directed in a more interesting way because they will revolve around a definitive idea of what your class is IMO. Otherwise you just get the generic mishmash of quests that everyone else in game gets to do.
In Cyrodiil I play the role of the closer/finisher, think old school elemental shaman with a 2 handed sword and no magic. When I flip my bar I turn into a controller/damage dealer with area CC and as of 1.6 a support heal. I can flip in an instant. . I like to call this build Hercine's Ranger. I play a Redgaurd, stamina, night blade, werewolf who wares 5 piece of medium armor and 2 pieces of heavy. I wont go into my stats, because that's personal
At anytime I choose I can go respec and play an entirely different role. First I would have to define that role in my head then set about sculpting it to efficiency through stats, armor, weapons, enchants, mundus stone, champion points and skills. This sculpting can take months. A new role, build and play style is something I have to be dedicated to see through.
The build I described above took me around 5 months before I settled in on it. I've played this build solo to the top 2% of every major alliance war. There is no one in ESO with a character like mine running my build. This type of flexibility is near what I can remember of the old pen and paper days.
But are restrictions a bad thing? A class is the avatar for a defined role that is the makeup of a group. That is what I always thought it was intended to be, even in old school rpg games and early in the mmorpg genre.
He didn't say they were a bad thing. He said classes are about setting restrictions to create sets of abilities & skills which create distinct playstyles and which can be balanced against one another.
This is precisely the way you should view classes imo.
Classes can be a very bad thing if you do it wrong. The more similar everyone of the same class is the worse it is.
With a good system each class offers many different possibilities and let you player be something then just a basic warrior but if you do it wrong everyone of the same class will be a bad carbon copy of anyone sle from that class.
Of course bad class less systems have the same flaw, some skills are over powered and everyone get them which mean most characters will be very similar.
Both class based systems and class less can be really fun but you need to put work into it and let players still be effective in a huge variety of builds.
If every class ain't really fun and useful for all types of gameplay you have failed.
I'm going to reply to both yours and aesperus's posts together. As you pointed out you are born with your race, but your class is a choice. You choose your class based on what role you want to play in game. When I say role I mean more your place in the game world then are you going to be a tank, dps, healer, etc. That may be part of your role, but your role is more defined by what your class does in game. That may be any variety of different things, but likely it is something that will be fairly clearly defined and told to you at the start of the game when you are selected a class to play as. I also feel that it is important to have these things defined in stone to an extent to give the world more character. Each race and class will be predefined by what it believes as a whole in the culture. Without this it has no identity short of healer or human with pointy ears. Basically you are told what each race and class believes / does primarily at the start of the game and you choose depending on how you want to play. You don't choose something and then say well I don't like the description of the race, but I like pointy ears so I'm going to choose this and play this way. IMO that defeats the purpose of making these races and classes in the first place and you are left with just managing a bunch of skills, abilities, and loot like you have in most MMOs now.
If you want a lore focused game that is the right way to do, but it is from easy to present that in a godd way.
You can't just add a zillion cutscenes in a MMO to set the mode, some works but constantly pausing the gameplay only works in single player games.
You could present it partly with class specific quests and DEs, and you could let npcs react in certain ways to a character walking by based on race and class, preferably npcs who aren't questgivers. Good NPCs might cheer or shout out encouraging things to a paladin who walks by for example. Hostile animals might not be hostile to druids and rangers. Small stuff like that are easy to make but makes the world feel more alive while letting the players get more into their character.
Of course not all stuff need to be positive. A thief might get a DE thta spawns a bunch of bounty hunters or watchmens who tries to arrest her, the pally might get attack by evil things and an half elf might get racial slurs in an evil human town.
The entire game don't have to be overful with this stuff either, that might instead annoy the players but some flavor things will let the character stand out.
I think it could be done without cut scenes. I have some ideas on how to do that. One would be to make it hard to reach different places in the world which would spit things up a lot. It would be hard to reach different places due to the dangers along your path. You can have different sects for different classes setup in different parts of the world. Areas that would make sense for that class to be. For instance Paladins, Warriors, and Thieves, and Mage could all start in various cities as certain races. Rangers would likely start somewhere off in the Woods. Perhaps a training ground for Rangers of some sort. It would be different for each class. Each class would have different tasks. Warriors could do a variety of different things like hire out as mercenaries or be bounty hunters, Thieves could have a quest to steal something valuable in the city or go on a quest to find some lost treasure, mages are likely seeking knowledge of some sort (Perhaps they are going to seek how to create the mighty spell fireball), Rangers are likely navigating along pathways in the forest and helping lost travelers (they will have quests to that end). There might be quests that bring said classes together. Ones that might tie all the different classes goals together in some way. Perhaps there is something each class wants in a dangerous far of dungeon, but they have to team up for this particular task. It requires a lot more thought, but I think it could be done.
I see the whole 'class' discussion as a mechanism that places restrictions on characters. These restrictions help provide some mechanisms for the developer to balance the game. A wizard does massive damage, so they're good to have around to kill monsters, but they can't wear plate armor, so they don't survive fights too well. This creates a degree of dependence on other players. A character can't do everything exceptionally well, so there is a need for specialists. A class definition therefore provides a list of positive and negative attributes. These can be skills, spells, or abilities. They help delineate the character's place (role) within the game world (typically limited to combat-related functions).
The class system, then, determines how this character 'fits' into the world, providing their specialization. It is a rudimentary (but incomplete) depiction of an inhabitant of the game world. It is a convenient shorthand for a specific set of skills shared by a group of characters.
But are restrictions a bad thing? A class is the avatar for a defined role that is the makeup of a group. That is what I always thought it was intended to be, even in old school rpg games and early in the mmorpg genre.
He didn't say they were a bad thing. He said classes are about setting restrictions to create sets of abilities & skills which create distinct playstyles and which can be balanced against one another.
This is precisely the way you should view classes imo.
I know he never implied that. I was actually agreeing with his post. This is how I view classes...
That is because those are solo RPGS. Correct statement. I don't get why people who hate group play and yet still play mmo?
For the content? IP? the occasional group experience? There are plenty of reasons.
For example, I play Marvel Heroes as a single player game because there simply isn't another action RPG where I can play so many iconic marvel characters.
But are restrictions a bad thing? A class is the avatar for a defined role that is the makeup of a group. That is what I always thought it was intended to be, even in old school rpg games and early in the mmorpg genre.
He didn't say they were a bad thing. He said classes are about setting restrictions to create sets of abilities & skills which create distinct playstyles and which can be balanced against one another.
This is precisely the way you should view classes imo.
Classes can be a very bad thing if you do it wrong. The more similar everyone of the same class is the worse it is.
With a good system each class offers many different possibilities and let you player be something then just a basic warrior but if you do it wrong everyone of the same class will be a bad carbon copy of anyone sle from that class.
Of course bad class less systems have the same flaw, some skills are over powered and everyone get them which mean most characters will be very similar.
Both class based systems and class less can be really fun but you need to put work into it and let players still be effective in a huge variety of builds.
If every class ain't really fun and useful for all types of gameplay you have failed.
Anything can be very bad if done wrong. That's not a good argument against anything.
Thing is, hard restrictions (classes) generally allow the devs to create more impactful abilities without fear of them getting out of hand thus creating more distinct playstyles. Since classes are easier to balance, games with class systems are generally much better balanced than classless games.
To put it in another way, classless games can have a greater number of different build combinations but the number of useful builds is generally lower.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I see the whole 'class' discussion as a mechanism that places restrictions on characters. These restrictions help provide some mechanisms for the developer to balance the game. A wizard does massive damage, so they're good to have around to kill monsters, but they can't wear plate armor, so they don't survive fights too well. This creates a degree of dependence on other players. A character can't do everything exceptionally well, so there is a need for specialists. A class definition therefore provides a list of positive and negative attributes. These can be skills, spells, or abilities. They help delineate the character's place (role) within the game world (typically limited to combat-related functions).
The class system, then, determines how this character 'fits' into the world, providing their specialization. It is a rudimentary (but incomplete) depiction of an inhabitant of the game world. It is a convenient shorthand for a specific set of skills shared by a group of characters.
But are restrictions a bad thing? A class is the avatar for a defined role that is the makeup of a group. That is what I always thought it was intended to be, even in old school rpg games and early in the mmorpg genre.
He didn't say they were a bad thing. He said classes are about setting restrictions to create sets of abilities & skills which create distinct playstyles and which can be balanced against one another.
This is precisely the way you should view classes imo.
I know he never implied that. I was actually agreeing with his post. This is how I view classes...
Restrictions are necessary, otherwise every character eventually becomes godlike, capable of doing anything, at almost anytime. That takes most of the energy out of a game. An important part of any imaginative endeavor is establishing boundaries, in games or in fiction. People won't believe a character who suddenly causes a flood inside a tomb deep in the desert, when there's never been a hint of those abilities beforehand. In games, the restrictions of a class/role/avatar begin to determine the limits and expectations of the player base, and serves as a starting point for what to code.
If anyone has followed my posts on this forum, they will know I am very much in favor of classes and restrictions. I abhor the tank-mage syndrome, where every character can learn/use/become proficient in every possible skill (my most prominent fear for EQ:N). I even dislike the ability (in most games) to learn multiple crafting skills -- it's simply not realistic in a typical medieval-based fantasy.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Comments
Yep it comes down to good game design but too many have blamed ideas like Trinity for example because they have been playing games by poor quality developers.
Tanaka was the last quality designer but he is no longer.Square ruined his reputation because the big shots wanted to push that game out before it was ever ready,they had to shove someone under the bus.
Nobody not before nor after have made as much depth in game play as he did.Now we get what grid maps and dungeon finders and repeat SUPER easy daily quests,if you can call them quests.
Seriously nobody is going to say they have encountered tough quests,so why would the developer need to create elaborate system to support sub-par game play?Answer is they don't and won't,instead they just skip game design 101 and head directly to end game where it becomes about Re-raise and pots really sad game design and people are supporting that.
When a NEW developer comes along,guess who they look to hire?Experience and guess what experience the majority have?Making shallow WOW clones ,so don't expect anything good to come along for a long time.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This is the common mistake that is made by class designers. The tricky balance between pure and hybrid classes. Pure classes are suppose to excel at one role whereas a hybrid class has multiple roles and can't excel at either.
Plus, the mmo genre know is saturated with just regular gamers who were brought into this genre by WoW. Pre WoW you had mmo gamers who loved this genre and cared about it. The mind set for a lot of these new mmo gamers is instant gratification, and I have to do a lot of damage even though I can tank or heal. It's not fair that I can't do enough damage as a pure dps class. That is the venom which is ruining class design today.
Approved... I meant improved lol. Fail on my part. Anyways...
That is what I am attempting to do. For many who, I had great conversations with know my game design elements and philosophy tell me that this is the direction the genre should have taken. I even befriended an old Programmer Engineer who worked on Burning Crusade and Wraith tell me that my vision is the next step in the mmorpg genre. Finding out that Unity has some interesting mmo presets and templates to use. Right now my plan is to get a demo out of 3 gameplay unique and innovative gameplay mechanics. So if you're looking for MMO's to go back to the old school mmo philosophy but with new age gameplay, I am your guy!
This is moving away from classes a bit, but I would like to see that. I feel that you don't need to bring necessarily bring back large time sinks, but it would be nice to bring back non combat elements of games past. Things like having underwater exploration in large dangerous dungeons and utility spells/potions that allow traversing those locations. Having levitation with a purpose like being able travers from one continent to another that is unreachable or to reach a floating continent in the sky. Having food and drink. Having day and night cycles where certain things only happen at certain times. More interpersonal trading of objects and crafting. Basically things of that nature. I know a lot of people won't agree, but it's what I would like to see.
If I can't make my build from scratch and am forced to play with what the developer gives me I'll tire and quit quickly. I need to be able to create and develop my character. The ability to do so is a basic pillar of RPGs. The ability to be able to define my role is something I will not play without.
I don't want to derail being able to do what I said above is why I play ESO. The control I have over my stats, armor, weapons, and skill is unmatched in the industry.
I would ask you a question.
What do you feel your role is in the world of ESO?
I felt the opposite in ESO. I tried playing a few different ways and didn't find anything that was interesting. It felt like all you got to choose were a few skills here and there. Everyone was basically DPS of a different flavor.
On the flip side if you have a class you can say I am part of a sect of Paladins which are devoted to destroying all evil in the world. It's very defined and gives you some purpose in game. Purpose other then just following some quests around. The quests that do exist are likely to be directed in a more interesting way because they will revolve around a definitive idea of what your class is IMO. Otherwise you just get the generic mishmash of quests that everyone else in game gets to do.
Sadly, few pople think like that. They could of course add templates instead of classes for people who want to be told how to make their character but I think most devs don't think it would be popular enough to actually be worth it.
ESO is hardly unmatched though, UO was the king of this thinking but there are still others aroundthat offers great diversity. Most of them are for some reasons full loot hardcore PvP games though.
Creating my own class would be far more fun than a pre-made but only if it is done right. You will need a system that keeps it somewhat balanced but fun, and with many good possible builds instead of just a few. Loads of pen and paper RPGs have done this but I honestly never played a MMO that got it right.
you mean be a sorc or die?
He didn't say they were a bad thing. He said classes are about setting restrictions to create sets of abilities & skills which create distinct playstyles and which can be balanced against one another.
This is precisely the way you should view classes imo.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
If you want a lore focused game that is the right way to do, but it is from easy to present that in a godd way.
You can't just add a zillion cutscenes in a MMO to set the mode, some works but constantly pausing the gameplay only works in single player games.
You could present it partly with class specific quests and DEs, and you could let npcs react in certain ways to a character walking by based on race and class, preferably npcs who aren't questgivers. Good NPCs might cheer or shout out encouraging things to a paladin who walks by for example. Hostile animals might not be hostile to druids and rangers. Small stuff like that are easy to make but makes the world feel more alive while letting the players get more into their character.
Of course not all stuff need to be positive. A thief might get a DE thta spawns a bunch of bounty hunters or watchmens who tries to arrest her, the pally might get attack by evil things and an half elf might get racial slurs in an evil human town.
The entire game don't have to be overful with this stuff either, that might instead annoy the players but some flavor things will let the character stand out.
In Cyrodiil I play the role of the closer/finisher, think old school elemental shaman with a 2 handed sword and no magic. When I flip my bar I turn into a controller/damage dealer with area CC and as of 1.6 a support heal. I can flip in an instant. . I like to call this build Hercine's Ranger. I play a Redgaurd, stamina, night blade, werewolf who wares 5 piece of medium armor and 2 pieces of heavy. I wont go into my stats, because that's personal
At anytime I choose I can go respec and play an entirely different role. First I would have to define that role in my head then set about sculpting it to efficiency through stats, armor, weapons, enchants, mundus stone, champion points and skills. This sculpting can take months. A new role, build and play style is something I have to be dedicated to see through.
The build I described above took me around 5 months before I settled in on it. I've played this build solo to the top 2% of every major alliance war. There is no one in ESO with a character like mine running my build. This type of flexibility is near what I can remember of the old pen and paper days.
Classes can be a very bad thing if you do it wrong. The more similar everyone of the same class is the worse it is.
With a good system each class offers many different possibilities and let you player be something then just a basic warrior but if you do it wrong everyone of the same class will be a bad carbon copy of anyone sle from that class.
Of course bad class less systems have the same flaw, some skills are over powered and everyone get them which mean most characters will be very similar.
Both class based systems and class less can be really fun but you need to put work into it and let players still be effective in a huge variety of builds.
If every class ain't really fun and useful for all types of gameplay you have failed.
I think it could be done without cut scenes. I have some ideas on how to do that. One would be to make it hard to reach different places in the world which would spit things up a lot. It would be hard to reach different places due to the dangers along your path. You can have different sects for different classes setup in different parts of the world. Areas that would make sense for that class to be. For instance Paladins, Warriors, and Thieves, and Mage could all start in various cities as certain races. Rangers would likely start somewhere off in the Woods. Perhaps a training ground for Rangers of some sort. It would be different for each class. Each class would have different tasks. Warriors could do a variety of different things like hire out as mercenaries or be bounty hunters, Thieves could have a quest to steal something valuable in the city or go on a quest to find some lost treasure, mages are likely seeking knowledge of some sort (Perhaps they are going to seek how to create the mighty spell fireball), Rangers are likely navigating along pathways in the forest and helping lost travelers (they will have quests to that end). There might be quests that bring said classes together. Ones that might tie all the different classes goals together in some way. Perhaps there is something each class wants in a dangerous far of dungeon, but they have to team up for this particular task. It requires a lot more thought, but I think it could be done.
I know he never implied that. I was actually agreeing with his post. This is how I view classes...
For the content? IP? the occasional group experience? There are plenty of reasons.
For example, I play Marvel Heroes as a single player game because there simply isn't another action RPG where I can play so many iconic marvel characters.
The fact that it is a MMO is quite incidental.
It works in instances. And works if you provide a "skip" button.
MMOs are not the only multiple player games out there, and certainly there are other online games with cut scenes.
Anything can be very bad if done wrong. That's not a good argument against anything.
Thing is, hard restrictions (classes) generally allow the devs to create more impactful abilities without fear of them getting out of hand thus creating more distinct playstyles. Since classes are easier to balance, games with class systems are generally much better balanced than classless games.
To put it in another way, classless games can have a greater number of different build combinations but the number of useful builds is generally lower.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Restrictions are necessary, otherwise every character eventually becomes godlike, capable of doing anything, at almost anytime. That takes most of the energy out of a game. An important part of any imaginative endeavor is establishing boundaries, in games or in fiction. People won't believe a character who suddenly causes a flood inside a tomb deep in the desert, when there's never been a hint of those abilities beforehand. In games, the restrictions of a class/role/avatar begin to determine the limits and expectations of the player base, and serves as a starting point for what to code.
If anyone has followed my posts on this forum, they will know I am very much in favor of classes and restrictions. I abhor the tank-mage syndrome, where every character can learn/use/become proficient in every possible skill (my most prominent fear for EQ:N). I even dislike the ability (in most games) to learn multiple crafting skills -- it's simply not realistic in a typical medieval-based fantasy.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.