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Adventure, Player Influence, A World - 3 Immersion Factors (poll)
Eronakis
Member UncommonPosts: 2,248
*I did post this in another thread and it will probably get lost in the abyss. So I thought of expanding on this idea to make an interesting conversation.*
It seems that there is quiet a shout of players who are craving the tasty sweet immersion-esque gameplay in mmorpgs. I think there are three design elements that would help implement the immersion factor.
A World
Do you want to log into a lobby game? Or a World? For those who are craving more immersion you want a world. There are many different themes of worlds we can use here, but for the sake and the most popular we'll go with medieval fantasy. For example purposes we'll say this world is balance between medieval age and high fantasy. No guns, no futuristic gadgets or things that would seem out of place for this setting.
Think about it for a moment and ponder. If your character is apart of a world what does that mean? You, other players and NPCS are considered citizens of this world. You just happen to be associated with your class which is you're career in a sense for this world. We're all not heroes. Not yet anyways. Not all of us can be the hero. If we're not all the hero is that a bad thing? I don't see why not. I think one thing that breaks immersion in new generation mmo's is that the gameplay is geared towards single player to make you the hero. Everyone's character is the hero. Lets flip the coin over because there is a different way of looking at this.
Adventure - A new questing mechanic
Let's face it. What we have in the majority of mmos today are not really quests. They're more or less meaningless tasks/errands. I think these types of tasks/errands should be posted on a Missive Board in town and not required for progression but merely another means to make money. Even players can post tasks on this missive board.
Let's redefine and change the terminology of quests to Adventures. An Adventure will take the player and their group through trials and tribulations along the way. Adventures would require dynamic content along the way to trigger different events. Adventure would incorporate epic travel and there wouldn't be a need for fast travel. I would predict that an Adventure could last 1-2 hours of gameplay depending on the skill-level of the players within the group.
Here is a good scale of how tasks/quests/adventures can work.
-Missives (tasks/errands) which are posted in a city that are only associated within the zone the city is housed in and/or 1 other outside zone.
-Adventure: which are obtained by NPC's of factions that will allow players to trek through at least 2 or at max 5 different zones. There will be many choices along the way.
-Dynamic Events: Which are caused by successful or failing Adventures by other players around you. These Dynamic Events can be throughout several zones. These are events that the player and their group can choose to partake in at the risk of 'failing' their adventure at hand. Players not punished by rewards sake for choosing or attempting to do both.
Here is an example of a simple Adventure.
Let's say you get an adventure in a zone called the "Riverlands' and you and your group accepted to kill a named mob in a military base that is housed in some ruins in the jungle south of you.
Let's say you and your group have to travel through 3 different zones which is about an hour or two on gameplay depending on lack of wipes. So the sequence of traveling zones would be this: Riverlands>Gnoll Hills>Red Barrens>Noxvine Jungle.
While on your trek to the ruins, a spy of the named mob sends messengers to warn of a bounty on his head. This could cause 1 of two 'if then statements'. 1. If you make it to the jungle within a certain amount of time the named mob stays and defends him self. or 2. If you don't make it to the jungle in a certain amount of time then the named mob has a chance to escape. This could make things interesting. Allow different triggered events on your way there and allow certain wave of mobs to come and stop you as well as traps along the way.
Dynamic Content: Player Influence
This will compliment the above section I have described. While you and your party are trekking to get this named mob killed, what if on your way there, there is a town that you stop at because it sells reagents super cheap and as a banker there. This small town is a great rest stop instead of going to a larger city miles down the road. However, a zone event occurs and players failed in another zone at a zone event in which a company of orcs are on their way to raid and pilliage that town you hold dear. So then you and your group have a choice. 1. Continue the Adventure at hand or 2. Defend the town and forget the Adventure at hand or 3. Defend the town and continue the Adventure at hand running the risk of the the named mob to escape. As a group you'd weigh what is worth more and what you should do.
Some things players may have to think about while making this decision. Will others players defend that town while we finish our adventure? Can we put our trust in other players to care? For example purposes let's say the group decides to defend the town because if the orcs win that town is occupied by orc NPC's for 2-3 weeks before you can attempt to take the town back over again. As you succeed in to defending your town, what if you get massive benefits and rewards for defending that town and perhaps a title only you can have.
However, the named mob from the jungle has escaped and went somewhere else. Technically your adventure failed. But that's fine. Your group still got a reward to defend the town. Can you still choose and hunt down the named mob? Sure why not? Would it be a more of a challenge to find him? Absolutely. If you find him will you get a reward? Absolutely!
Conclusion
As you can see this type of gameplay would be a good deterrent to allow for immersion type gameplay. When you go on Adventures and Dynamic Events may or may not get in the way; you get lost within the world. It gives another avenue of choice to the players. It makes the world around you interesting. It helps encourages community. Adventures have a purpose and makes epic travel interesting. It's sort of like an exterior wilderness crawl in a way.
At it's core the Adventure Mechanic would allow players as a collective to earn to be the hero. Look you've saved that town and sacrificed your personal Adventure. You're a hero for that town. This could broaden and players can also can gain achievements as well.
I hope I have conveyed this idea clearly. I do understand that this type of gameplay would be an expensive feat but that doesn't deter away from the idea it self. I know that some of you won't like this gameplay idea and that's fine. But there are many of you who will. Please discuss this. I am also inserting a poll out of curiosity.
Comments
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Sigh, you rarely contribute to the topic of the thread. You put gameplay elements in place to allow players to be immersed. That's what the thread is about. I ask my self why I even replied to your comment because it has no substance at all.
Voted yes, but it depends on how these features are implemented, how they "fit together."
These are definitely a good start, though
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I voted YES,, because it's better then the current themepark ride.. Rift and GW2 tried to with dynamic events and make the world more alive, but in the end they stumbled and failed.. People will spend hours debating why they were not as successful as they hyped it.. Personally, for me, GW2 did the correct thing with allowing flexible level depending on what zone area you were in.. So, you actually never truly out leveled an area and not get some reward out of it.. However, that being said, GW2 failed with the dynamic events.. There are a handful of areas that people FARM a cycle of events with their eyes closed.. They go from event A to B to C kill mini boss, then run back to location A for the reset, and do it all over again.. It's like a 20 minute cycle.. Zzzzzzz
Now you have Rift with zone wide invasions.. These I support and like, but they are too punitive depending on the time of day, in most zones often ignored because the rewards for doing invasions are inferior to "instanced" rewards.. I think the number one cause why Rift and GW2 are not completely successful with their open world events and activities is because of their damn INSTANCED BULL SHIT.. I really hate it when companies put ALL the goodies and shinies in instanced zones.. People will always go where the better rewards are located, or what is more fun..
If it was up to me, I would blend a little of GW2 and Rift together for open world events and bosses.. and SHIT CAN instancing all together.. With the technology of "soft grouping" like GW2 does, there is no need or reason for instancing anymore..
and some don't even think immersion is that important. Look at the millions who are playing LoL and hearthstone.
Personally, i would much rather have good gameplay, choices of different game modes, convenience in assessing different parts of the game, than everything thrown in a big world. But that is just me, of course.
What other features do you think would increase your immersion that is complimentary to these said features ? Or what other features entirely would be immersion changing?
Also for those who vote no, I am curious of why you don't think these features are immersive. Besides the fact that you want a lobby game and you want the easy fast route. Just curious.
One thing MMORPG worlds lack these days are factions and reputation. These are superb leveling features for specific classes/jobs. They can also introduce players to the world very well indeed, and help guide them along. I do not want a world where my character can be everything and do everything. Factions help to give a sense of consequences like no other mechanic. Help the Dwarves, the Giants hate you.
NPCs have a lot to do with immersion for me, since they are the tie between me and the game. "Canned dialogue" is all too common among many different MMOs as if they copy and pasted each others' dialogues. Let me seek them out by talking to them. I really miss EQ's type written responses (in the local chat channel). This allowed players to role play their characters. There were keywords, but the way you used those keywords was totally up to the player.
Only one way to accomplish tasks is another bad deal. Allow my Mage to use magic to succeed, or my Warrior to wade through enemies, or my Rogue to sneak to the objective. Have me interested and wanting to read through Quest Dialogues. If you put an item in a chest, allow my Warrior to bash it open (noisily), my Mage to use a lock opening spell, or my Rogue to use their lockpicking skill.
Another lost feature is language. I miss being a player that knew many different languages. It gave the world life and makes cultures different, instead of copy paste with different models. I'm also very terrible with language learning in real life, so being able to learn them in a game is fun for me
Weights. A forgotten feature. Bags of holding seem to be all the rage lately. Sure, it may make players run back and forth between dungeon/spawn spot and a nearby city, but things have mass and weight. I really have not encountered a game that handles this well, yet.
Basically, almost anything that has a player bring back pad and pencil to the game to keep notes, which most players outright hate today.
How is that for a start?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
oh .... you get two things wrong.
a) I did not say these features are not immersive. I am saying immersive-ness is just not that important compared to gameplay and convenience.
b) lobby games are fast and convenient, but not necessarily easy. Examples: LoL .. any e-sport is not easy if you want to go up in ranks. D3 .. you can set up D3 to be very difficult with hardcore + high greater rifts. It is not about "easy" .. it is about "convenient". There is a difference.
Give you another example .. slow travel will make a game seems more like a world (the definition of immersive to some) but i wouldn't want that in my games. I want my games to be fun games, not boring worlds.
In every topic you respond to you always bring up singleplayer games or coop games with as much convenience as possible, most of your 20k post is basicly the same, why is that, it feels like I'm reading your same respons in everything thread you take part in.
You ever wonder why people post anything on this site ? Boredom ? I mean, you KNOW some one will just bash the hell out of you . Then in turn you BASH them back. Then the whole thread becomes about who can bash back in the most polite way.
Keep bashing posts 2015 (tm) !
because that is what this forum is about? Rehashing the same rant & arguments ... lack of ffa pvp, no death penalty, more "immersion" ... i am doing no different, except from a different point of view.
Sounds similar to a design I've had tucked away for some years now. Since I find it highly unlikely I'll ever actually make this game, I'll elaborate.
The 'missive board' idea I think is a good one. Howver, I don't think you need to separate 'errands' from 'adventures'. I think 'quests' in general should just be jobs / tasks / whatever, ordered by NPCs or players within the game. And I think this would best be tied to crafting. For example:
Say a player wanted to craft a house. It probably takes a lot of lumber / stone / metal, but maybe there are some rarer ingredients that the player either can't get, or doesn't have the time for. He puts in a job for someone to get said ingredients for him, and offers a reward. Now obviously such a system could be applied to almost anything. Want to make an epic sword? maybe it takes a tooth from an epic lvl dragon out in the world. Or maybe you need a gemstone from an orc dungeon. Heck, maybe your favorite farming spot is currently being occupied by high level bandits and you need someone to help clear them out for you.
It's an intriguing idea and would be fun to try out. There are potential problems with a system like this though:
1) You'd need to dynamically control both the demand and supply for such jobs. Players should never feel like there is nothing to do in your game. Doing so sounds like a no brainer, but it's actually very tricky to get right. Most games that have tried anything remotely similar have failed at doing so.
2) Piggybacking off #1, such a system is very population dependant (as are most MMOs), so having a healthy server-load / playerbase is pretty important.
3) Most players want epic loot. Games like Firefall have shown this. Most gamers are dissatisfied with getting nothing but crafting mats as drops all game. It just feels better to find an 'epic hammer of justice' or 'magical underpants of doom', than to get 'purple quartz crystal #4'. Adding in such drops is certainly doable, but if you rely too heavily on that it undermines the whole system.
4) By making such a system essentially market-driven, it opens the door for having such orders mass-filled by people who hoard mats. Which can get very problematic for everyone else.
5) As ambitious as such a system is, it can't be the entirety of the game. There needs to be plenty of other options as well. Crafting would be one, wars / pvp could probably be another. You could also have story elements as well.
- TL;DR
In short I think it's an excellent idea. However it's an extremely ambitious one. if done correctly it would be akin to a masterpiece of sorts. However, if you get even one aspect of it wrong, it could very easily erode the entire idea you're trying to accomplish.
And let's not forget that no one has presented a sufficient enough argument to actually change anyone's mind. Most opinions remain unchanged by reading forums, no matter how loud or colorfully stated the argument may be. We are all closed-minded, especially when it comes to games.
Maybe Star Trek should have focused less on automatic doors (things we've had in supermarkets since the 1950s) and concentrated on something truly remarkable, automatic mind-openers.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Few minds will ever be changed on internet forums. It is really not about changing minds, but the pure fun of discussions, arguments, and verbal jousting.
I doubt anyone here is under the illusion that whatever they say will actually change others' preferences. It is just another form of fun grinding (doing small variations of rehashing similar arguments, and see who is more clever at it today).
ALB great points. Factions and reputation will play massive hand into immersed gameplay. What we're talking about is NPC factions not player factions. There would be different layers of rewards or consequences for deciding with a faction over the other. It can go deeper than that too.
I really liked languages in EQ. It was an interesting feature. Of course not all races will speak common. This could compliment a faction thing. Like if you knew a certain tongue then it would be easier to associate yourself with that faction.
I think encumbrance is a realistic thing to have in an mmo that focuses on a world. But it can get troublesome. This is a tricky design and could be considered tedious. What I think would be immersive is that there isn't a town or a village every 30 feet like you see in most mmos. Where you actually go out into the wilderness and adventure. Also instead of having 10 different bag slots that can be full on your character, why not do something like what vanguard did and allow extra bag space with your mount.
Interesting I have a lot of ideas and design documents as well. I do have to disagree with you that most just errand/task quests are not really a quest or an adventure. They're really work orders/missives. I also think a cool feature would be having different crafting classes that are in a town and can put up work orders on the missive board for players to get materials for them. An extra way to make money.
I really like how Vanguard did their crafting system with different grades and qualities of items. The better the material used the higher grade/quality of the item you can craft. Instead of doing hundreds of combines to get an item you can still make items just not as good quality that could be sold to players or vendors for extra cash.
Partly true, people do tend to speak same on several things you on the other hand say the same thing over and over.
no more so than what the others rant about.
In fact, if they are not rehashing it, how can i rehash the same response?
a combination of epic shoe-horning and having no sense of when your tastes are relevant to a conversation.
for example..... this threads WHOLE, ENTIRE POINT was immersion. it was CLEARLY stated right there in the title.
there is no need for you to come in here and effectively say " not everyone wants immersion, therefore this conversation is pointless ".
instead, you should do what reasonable people do, and not feel the need to post in areas that are ALL ABOUT something you're completely not interested in.
no need to thrust yourself into the middle of every group of people and claim that nobody ELSE should care about the subject they are in the middle of discussing, because YOU don't.
that's just ____.
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Corpus Callosum
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Here, I'm going to try to get back to the OP's original post.
I didn't vote because I'm not sure how to vote. The reason is because I think there are gamer types that don't care about "immersion" at all.
Type 1
They play to defeat other players. They just see the world as the arena in which they can do so and don't care about the "world" as a an escape from reality or a place to role play. They simply want to overcome challenges and destroy others. They want to win. They play for competition and victory.
So that segment of gamer right there is drawn to MMOs precisely because there are other players to compete with and defeat, not because of the world or immersion.
Type 2
These are players drawn to MMOs to escape, wander, and to exercise their imagination in role play. They are looking for immersion. They are who you are talking to.
Your point is valid, OP. I just think it would be a good idea to define the target audience you are talking to and to or to suggest how the various types of players could fit into a world.
EDIT: In before someone says you can't pigeon hole people and they are sometimes type 1 or type 2, or both, or type 3 or whatever. I understand that. But players have certain tendencies toward these two very broad categories. There is also significant data, both published and kept within game companies, that shows these types and considers them in game design. No links. Google it yourself if you want.
There is no "need" for anyone to discuss mere games on a forum. But we want to .. because it is fun, right?
And i didn't say this conversation is pointless. In fact, one point of this discussion is to point out that immersion is not important for every player, which is a fair point, despite that you seem to dislike this opinion, for a discussion of immersion in games.
in other words....(as already stated before) you're saying " this conversation is pointless ".
does it really need to be stated that not everybody in the world likes every thing in this world?
answer: NO
why don't you go into every thread, and for everytime somebody mentions something of interest to them, point out to them that not everybody cares about that thing.
oh wait.... you're already DOING that.
****WHOOOOSH**** right over your head, as usual
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Corpus Callosum
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i think you need to look up what "in other words" mean when you are saying something I did not say.
But again, without putting some words in my mouth, there isn't much fun, is there?