Not to worry, wow may just do it again, not give people a year with no update still people pay in $15 for it, if was less I can understand as server do cost money to run, but they going rank more money maybe a new mount in there cash shop few million more. And top of that pay for are new expansion give us more of your money.
F2p, B2p, or sub even way people get sucker in to pay out more, welcome to max profit.
Games seem to have a solid price of ~60$ for the past couple of years. Including MMOs. Slapping a rental fee on those $60 is simply wrong.
If bunch of single player games can successfully pull an online world with no cash shop and no subscription, I honestly don't see a reason to pay a sub to someone and not feel cheated.
Single player games would not use as many packets on the internet if they connected at all. MMO games have to use the server to authenticate actions affecting inventory, movement, and for some the physics of the game itself etc. - anything "server-side" in the game isn't happening on your computers but theirs. This requires internet usage to send back the results of the outcome. Not just to discuss the actions that your character makes but those around you. The more populated the area you are in, either the frequency will increase or the data sent to tell you what all the other players around you are doing in unison with yourself. You need to know too what those players are wearing to know how to show them on the screen.
Have you ever priced a high speed internet line like OC? They start around 30-50k monthly. So imagine that you choose a 30k plan - at 15 a month you need to have 2k subs just to cover your internet cost. This doesn't count electricity for the servers or those maintaining them or on call for it. In a small setup your co-location would cover the bandwidth but they charge more than they pay, you can assure yourself they want a profit too for their redundant building structures. One of our co-locations has redundancy even up to nuclear attack along with biometrics on the doors, real sci-fi procedures and setups with generators out the wazoo and it isn't free.
All those packets need to be processed before sent and that creates more server load. Use something more often and it will wear out faster so now you have to replace hardware more often. Just having more hardware running can be problematic. There are rays from space that aren't all taken out from our atmosphere. These cosmic rays are stronger in space appearing in the eyeballs of astronauts while trying to sleep - they went right through the ship and through their eyelids causing splashes of light instead of pure darkness. Some computer specialists blame them on why hard drives fail or lose data sometimes. I tend to believe this because twice when we had hard drive problems as a web hosting company we had multiple drives fail in near unison. All it takes is one bit to flip on a platter and you've got corruption. Run more hardware and the chances of bit flipping are more prevalent especially if you stack your drives which is common in racks but this could just be superstition for me. Some people even say RAM is affected and that ECC isn't a certain panacea.
Here's some data on stackexchange talking about it. Stack Exchange is where developers talk to other devs and answer questions back and forth. They have some good posts here about how they are different from single player games in lots of areas.
I see valid reasons to pay extra for an MMO versus a single player game. If nothing else, we know that data costs money to pass between both sets of computers without even thinking about the extra work involved in the programming itself or the technical support of finding out why someone can't use the server due to their ISP outages somewhere in the line. That's usually a big topic in tech forums for MMOs, going through the hops to see where things are failing and those are real people talking to you. They don't look like automated bots.
...snip
Idk how you do it in your webhosting company, but datacenters tend to scale on few hundred of servers, and one going down is not really a thing.
Infact, did you know that hard drives fail so often, people invented this thing called hotswap. And real server mainframes support CPU and RAM hotplugging. Bet you didn't know that :P
Also, MMO traffic is not that huge. Packets are a lot, but they are only few bytes in length. I've played games on metered traffic and I've created servers. I know the traffic requirements you've listed are a bit exaggerated.
Also do you honestly believe that game studio data centers have biometric scanners? Because I'm pretty sure that they aren't. It's a game server. I'm fairly certain they have more centralized systems outside the gaming datacenter for payments and personal information housing. For which you can even rent a datacenter you know.
...snip
This is all like super-good stuff. Honestly, I once worked for an eCommerce solution provider who was pretty big, pushing like half a billion a year in transactions, millions of hits daily, etc., etc. and our server costs were about $15k monthly. Oh, and that's also 7 or 8 years ago now, so the costs were much more costly. Oh, and that was the cost for an entire server farm. We didn't host a damn thing, though, didn't maintain it, didn't have to pay for any hardware, didn't need to pay for monitoring. It was all hosted in some super-secret broke-ass warehouse looking place in NJ where the security was probably greater than Ft. Knox. I'd be willing to bet that you could get a very viable solution these days, for a gaming server, in the neighbourhood of 5-8k/month. Oh, and if you're not making that monthly with your game, then it's probably time to throw in the towel anyway.
I see valid reasons to pay extra for an MMO versus a single player game. If nothing else, we know that data costs money to pass between both sets of computers
No one will argue that there is a cost the issue is that it is not $15/month; obviously the number of subscribers is a factor but $1/year should be more than enough for the hosting element.
Subscription is more more practical for come gamer and more affordable . F2P and B2W usually fall in the same catagory and in the long run you pay more than subscription based . One does not realize a abit here and there will be way more than a subscription . Can any one afford this sort of gaming in the long run . Not to mention f2p is current trend but what are the long term implications . F2p works if done right but its way more expensive on the average gamer and you thyink its cheaper when some games dont have the reveneue stream on such models .
Interesting comments, opinions, interpretations and sub-discussions about economics and business.
But in the end, as a player, as a consumer of games, as a fan of MMOs and MMORPGs
My choice will be SUB first when compared to all the negative experience and downsides and hassle of F2P games.
And provided, we actually have that choice.
With a Sub, the mind is at rest, that next patch will not rip off yet again something from the game and place it in the shop because the CEO asked for a 5% Quarterly profit increase in the last Meeting.
That is the problem with F2P games in my opinion they are not driven by "hey lets make the game better and more fun" by Game developers and designers, they are rather driven by Financial reports and Administrators.
I do not want a 50 slot inventory anymore which I can buy expansion Tickets to make bigger.
I want to start my character and have a 500+ Inventory. Unhindered by limitations intentionally implemented to support a F2P model.
And I prefer to pay a sub for it and just play the game and find what I find and sell what I sell and keep and not break my head and deal with the frustration of the intentional limitations of a F2P game.
it is not fun..as simple as that.
And that is the most important aspect I believe here.
I come to play an MMO to have fun, is anyone actually making one with the intent to provide fun?
Fun should be the driving force of a game's design, but it seems now Monetization is the driving force.
Look at EQLandmark...a glorified Minecraft that has been Monetized in a specific Platform... but that is not what made Minecraft's popularity. Freedom is what made it, freedom to be creative, not limits nor boundaries or parameters of a platform. A shop to sell one; creations is not what made Minecraft popular nor the limit of Landscape and having to buy more plots of land.
I would rather play in a Huge Hosted Server of Minecraft as is with a Sub than a F2P EQLandmark with all these limitations.
So the biggest problem for me has been the quality of the experience the quality of the gameplay the quality of the fun, which has plumetted with F2P because of all the limitations.
How much more Fun is Uncharted Waters Online in Japan with the SUB compared to its International F2P counterpart. The difference is astonishing.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Real reason for subscription would be to achieve as close to RMT free (both offical and unoffical one) enviroment as possible to provide game enviroment that is as separated from real life enviroment as possible to make game enviroment both a level playing field and about an gaming only.
That is main purpose and worth of paying a subscription for an mmorpg and not paying for server maintenance&bandwidth.
Sadly that thing is not valued by gamers and not pursued by companies. (WoW&EVE included).
If you want to be RMT free, you don't need to have a sub to do that .. box games can do that.
Look at D3 .. it is always online, and all the MP games are practical the same as dungeon instances in a MMO .. and it does not to charge a sub.
Plus, you are right .. i am not valued a RMT-free game. There are plenty of fun games with RMT .. marvel heroes, warframe, .... and i have no issue if some whales want to subsidize a free portion of the game for me.
And how much do you think making a MMO costs? Some people started saying that Zenimax dropped like 200 mil for theirs, even if that's true, that's huge waste of money. But hey, at least you have big screen actors voicing it! xD Probably most of the budget went there. Who cares...
Skyrim is close to the 100 mil mark. But um yeah .. MMOs are not that expensive.
It seems that lately they are.
SWToR was said to cost 200 million.
According to this it cost WoW 200 million over the first four years to develop and and run:
so where does the extra money come from to keep it afloat?
If Tera cost 50 million to develop what were their sales?
That's the issue here. Because MMO's. don't really sell as much as successful single player games.
Guild Wars 2 is the black horse here but there is so much on what it is making, taking in, etc. I've seen positive news reports only to see that people are questioning if the numbers are really reflecting what is being said. I have not looked at their latest financial report so I can't really see what is going on, at least with some shallow understanding.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
And how much do you think making a MMO costs? Some people started saying that Zenimax dropped like 200 mil for theirs, even if that's true, that's huge waste of money. But hey, at least you have big screen actors voicing it! xD Probably most of the budget went there. Who cares...
Skyrim is close to the 100 mil mark. But um yeah .. MMOs are not that expensive.
Guild Wars 2 is the black horse here but there is so much on what it is making, taking in, etc. I've seen positive news reports only to see that people are questioning if the numbers are really reflecting what is being said. I have not looked at their latest financial report so I can't really see what is going on, at least with some shallow understanding.
Think it was ~57 mil profit (after the costs). That didn't stop people for screaming the game is dying xD Wish my company was making 50 mil in 4 months. Oh well.
And yeah some MMOs really go over the top. SWTOR and TESO are the best examples of that. And even after all this funding they still had botched launches. And asked players for subs. Gw2 had none of that, and the game is profiting.
Plus you make a good point. MMOs don't have as many sales as a good AAA SP title. I can agree and disagree with this statement because it really varies from game to game. But generally speaking, that rental fee seriously pushes people away. I like to own the stuff i pay for. Sub games do not give me that feeling. And I'm sure many people agree. Gw2's initial sales showed just that. Sure, the game had massive hype train, and pre-order locked beta. That doesn't change the fact that the game is good and earned all its money by providing good entertainment.
GTA V online is the same
The Crew, always online, no SP campaign racing game in a huge open world with real people, still no subs.
Those are online, massive games, with the same costs and requirements as other MMOs.
I'm sorry, I just don't see how a sub is justified. 4 month sub is equal to a brand new game.
Originally posted by Vladric_Hellsinger Recently, I have seen many people in game and on various sites complain about paying a subscription fee. They describe they feel like they are being forced to play the game just to get their sub time worth. Also with many games doing the whole "free to play and cash shop" combo many developers see lots of profit in that. Let's not forget the B2P without a sub and a cashshop. (Looking at Guild Wars 2 which is really doing good as well.) Heck, even some games like SWTOR converted from sub based only to a freemium model with a cash shop and they make a good profit off of it as well. Since WOW is really the only game that has been subscription based and a huge success over these past 10 years. (Also FFXIV. Over 2 million subs.) That's really only a whopping two games. I have a feeling that subs will be an even lesser option as the MMO genre continues forward.So my question to you is should subscriptions remain or go away completely?
Sorry if my thoughts have already been aired, probably better than I will here
First off, ask those "other people" how many minutes they use their phone in order "to feel they are getting their moneys worth" or how many hours of TV they watch in order to "justify" their cable bill. If they say, "Those are utilities and are different, remind them TV is entertainment and cell phones are basically mobile games now. Then throw in NetFlix and GameFly for good measure. That "logic" is deeply flawed in my opinion
Secondly, and to your question, No. Why take away some players' preferred method of payment? Just because some players do not like it? Well, hell. I do not like chilli peppers. Maybe we should ban their use? Or better yet, cash shops and F2P games, which I despise.
No, choices are usually a good thing. The only reason players want some choice taken away is because they fear that their own preference will be taken away, so they want any alternative banned so that no other choice but their preference is available. This is truly a show of entitlement wanting EVERY GAME to be what they prefer.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
And how much do you think making a MMO costs? Some people started saying that Zenimax dropped like 200 mil for theirs, even if that's true, that's huge waste of money. But hey, at least you have big screen actors voicing it! xD Probably most of the budget went there. Who cares...
Skyrim is close to the 100 mil mark. But um yeah .. MMOs are not that expensive.
It seems that lately they are.
SWToR was said to cost 200 million.
According to this it cost WoW 200 million over the first four years to develop and and run:
so where does the extra money come from to keep it afloat?
If Tera cost 50 million to develop what were their sales?
That's the issue here. Because MMO's. don't really sell as much as successful single player games.
Guild Wars 2 is the black horse here but there is so much on what it is making, taking in, etc. I've seen positive news reports only to see that people are questioning if the numbers are really reflecting what is being said. I have not looked at their latest financial report so I can't really see what is going on, at least with some shallow understanding.
Anyone who thinks that MMOs are not expensive to make needs a massive reality check. They are easily the most expensive type of game you can attempt to make. Sometimes they get topped by certain single player games that blow a massive budget on licensing and marketting, but that's the exception.
That said it is possible to make an MMO for a lot cheaper, but it's going to look / play like a game that's from 10-15 yrs ago. It's also going to have less than half the features people on these forums seem to claim every MMO should have to be a real game. Make it cheap enough, and it may actually be able to make some money. But probably still wouldn't be worth the effort.
Why do westerners always think there are only three MMO business models?
Subs
B2P
F2P
The Asians have been using buy game time for years and the western MMO businesses are terrified we learn about that option.
We have time cards! Nope... that's not buy time. You buy 40 hours, you play 6 hours on the weekend, you have 34 left. Not til the end of the month, period. You have 34 hours left to play. It doesn't tick down if you're not in the game. It's about the same as a monthly subscription costs, but you don't lose it at the end of the month.
You say that as if those games don't have cash shops.
Real reason for subscription would be to achieve as close to RMT free (both offical and unoffical one) enviroment as possible to provide game enviroment that is as separated from real life enviroment as possible to make game enviroment both a level playing field and about an gaming only.
That is main purpose and worth of paying a subscription for an mmorpg and not paying for server maintenance&bandwidth.
Sadly that thing is not valued by gamers and not pursued by companies. (WoW&EVE included).
If you want to be RMT free, you don't need to have a sub to do that .. box games can do that.
Look at D3 .. it is always online, and all the MP games are practical the same as dungeon instances in a MMO .. and it does not to charge a sub.
Plus, you are right .. i am not valued a RMT-free game. There are plenty of fun games with RMT .. marvel heroes, warframe, .... and i have no issue if some whales want to subsidize a free portion of the game for me.
I do play box games. Both single player and multiplayer.
Thing is I do want also a very specific type of mmorpg aka virtual world. Not because I don't have enough box games, I do there is plenty of them of many types, etc
Apples and oragnes though. Endless supply of many kinds and types of best oranges are not a substitute for a good apple.
Anyway does not matter. Industry does not want to and frankly is propably even unable to provide what I want so. This is more like purely "academic" discussion.
Originally posted by bcbully No f2p should go away. Sub prices should vary. 5, 10, 15, 20 ect.
Totally agree on this.
I rather pay a sub than have to deal with those atrociuos cash shops & cash-locked content.
Heh. Sometimes I wonder if you guys actually play P2P games or you just run your mouths in your free time.
P2P games have cash shops.
P2P games lock content behind "deluxe editions"
You also rent the game.
There are hackers, botters, cheaters, dupers (lol, it was fun seeing people duping shit in TESO)
There are gold sellers, there are spammers.
I really don't see the quality you all claim. And I used to pay subs (Lineage 2 for few years). I also used to buy items off of eBay. And I also bought gold. What ... L2 was quite the grindfest, sometimes i just had too much and swung my parent's credit card
And how much do you think making a MMO costs? Some people started saying that Zenimax dropped like 200 mil for theirs, even if that's true, that's huge waste of money. But hey, at least you have big screen actors voicing it! xD Probably most of the budget went there. Who cares...
Skyrim is close to the 100 mil mark. But um yeah .. MMOs are not that expensive.
It seems that lately they are.
SWToR was said to cost 200 million.
According to this it cost WoW 200 million over the first four years to develop and and run:
so where does the extra money come from to keep it afloat?
If Tera cost 50 million to develop what were their sales?
That's the issue here. Because MMO's. don't really sell as much as successful single player games.
Guild Wars 2 is the black horse here but there is so much on what it is making, taking in, etc. I've seen positive news reports only to see that people are questioning if the numbers are really reflecting what is being said. I have not looked at their latest financial report so I can't really see what is going on, at least with some shallow understanding.
Anyone who thinks that MMOs are not expensive to make needs a massive reality check. They are easily the most expensive type of game you can attempt to make. Sometimes they get topped by certain single player games that blow a massive budget on licensing and marketting, but that's the exception.
That said it is possible to make an MMO for a lot cheaper, but it's going to look / play like a game that's from 10-15 yrs ago. It's also going to have less than half the features people on these forums seem to claim every MMO should have to be a real game. Make it cheap enough, and it may actually be able to make some money. But probably still wouldn't be worth the effort.
Nobody is saying those games are free to produce. Software is still expensive compared to other industries and software engineers are well payed because of it. But. Compared to the rest of gaming industries, the AAA section (not the indies), MMOs are not that much, if at all, more expensive than their SP/Online counterparts.
Diablo, Battle.Net, LoL, Dota 2, GTA V, Guild Wars 2, Hearthstone and many others ... do you think those run on air? Or that they aren't generating profits? The only paywall to people is the box price (some are even free). We already know that most gamers are happy to sink $60 for a good game.
Subscription makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in today.
Thus I haven't played any P2P games for real, outside the $60 trial period.
I agree however that 10 years ago when EVE/WoW/Lineage 2 launched, a sub was necessary to keep things moving because of the sheer price of hardware and networking back then. Also network tools weren't as efficient and the internet overall wasn't as good.
Today though ... I simply don't see it.
Today you can even purchase the most vital part of your game - the engine, for an okay price. And this engine is coming with full dev support and building tools. Hell, for $15/mo. you can get the Unreal Engine 4 source code. For few thousand bucks you don't even have to pay them once u launch the game. That's some premium shit.
Thing is I do want also a very specific type of mmorpg aka virtual world. Not because I don't have enough box games, I do there is plenty of them of many types, etc
Apples and oragnes though. Endless supply of many kinds and types of best oranges are not a substitute for a good apple.
Anyway does not matter. Industry does not want to and frankly is propably even unable to provide what I want so. This is more like purely "academic" discussion.
Yes, they are. They are all fruit, and give you vitamen C. In fact, you play other games than virtual world MMOs ... so they *are* substitute. They are not perfect substitute, and the market does not provide the variety you want ... but the market don't cater to every individual, and it has no obligation to do so.
In fact, having an endless supply of best oranges is not a bad deal in the light of a apple shortage. At least it is way better than no fruit at all.
I'm coming to hate F2P games more and more. There are a few that are ok but the vast majority of F2P require that you pay and pay a lot to enjoy the game. They find ways to inconvenience you into paying. They also tend to front load it knowing that you will leave the game soon...
Here are some great examples
1. Inventory space - this one forces you to buy space just after you get through the newbie experience and are hooked
2. Slow xp gain - Start you out rapidly progressing only to hit a wall which XP potions can help
3. Gear limits - Free gear sucks but you can buy rights to better gear, outright selling it to you, gems to unlock features or upgrade gear.
4. Time limits - Crafting takes 8 hours of time to make something but with gems you can instantly make it. Or you can only craft x amount before your character runs out of action points and needs to wait for them to recharge.
5. Premium quests or zones
6. Buying money
And so on. In the end you likely spend more on a F2P game then one a P2P game. The sad thing is that many of these F2P games are great at low levels. Once you get sucked in and pay to get into the mid levels the games tend to become less fun.
Like I said a huge number of these F2P games are anything but free.... Rather they are money grabs where you play for free for a couple weeks then they start sucking you dry for upgrades and in the end you pay more and are less satisfied.
Only a few F2P games are actually worth playing at all.
Life with P2P games was definately better. You paid a set amount and you could play without worrying about being nickel and dimed to death or having to deal with unbalanced game play made up for by spending money....
Originally posted by bcbully No f2p should go away. Sub prices should vary. 5, 10, 15, 20 ect.
Totally agree on this.I rather pay a sub than have to deal with those atrociuos cash shops & cash-locked content.
Heh. Sometimes I wonder if you guys actually play P2P games or you just run your mouths in your free time.P2P games have cash shops.P2P games lock content behind "deluxe editions" You also rent the game.There are hackers, botters, cheaters, dupers (lol, it was fun seeing people duping shit in TESO) There are gold sellers, there are spammers. I really don't see the quality you all claim. And I used to pay subs (Lineage 2 for few years). I also used to buy items off of eBay. And I also bought gold. What ... L2 was quite the grindfest, sometimes i just had too much and swung my parent's credit card Tunnel vision much?
Heh. Sometimes I wonder if you guys ever played a P2P game prior to 2006.
When I bought EQ: Ruins of Kunark, it was the exact same game that everyone who bought it got. Did EQ have a "Collector's Edition" right off the bat? I have no idea. I just Googled it an the only one I saw listed was for the "10h Anniversary Collector's Edition." EQ never had a Cash Shop until it went F2P a few years ago.
I think City of Heroes may have had a CE, but am not sure. I know they later had "Special Editions" of their expansions that sometimes included "extras" that other players did not get. CoH also did not have a Cash Shop until later in its life.
There were recourse and actions to be taken with hackers, botters, cheaters, dupers, gold sellers, and spammers. The difference I see in P2P and B2P/F2P is that a "ban" meant something. But that was a double-edged sword. Sure, that player lost their account and all the characters/items/levels/time, but the company also lost their $15 a month. The Old P2P games actually had customer service, a lost business practice today. They had IN GAME GMs that solved troubles quickly and IN GAME. Sometimes, those same GMs would run server-wide events on tjhe spur of the moment or announced a s planned event. THAT was what part of the subscription money went to pay for.
My point being: P2P MMOs have not always been as they are today. Matter of fact, the older games were barely recognizable compared to today's obvious money grabs.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
My point being: P2P MMOs have not always been as they are today. Matter of fact, the older games were barely recognizable compared to today's obvious money grabs.
And we are not in those days anymore, and whatever the games were like then ... is not really that relevant to today's marketplace.
I'm coming to hate F2P games more and more. There are a few that are ok but the vast majority of F2P require that you pay and pay a lot to enjoy the game. They find ways to inconvenience you into paying. They also tend to front load it knowing that you will leave the game soon...
Here are some great examples
1. Inventory space - this one forces you to buy space just after you get through the newbie experience and are hooked
2. Slow xp gain - Start you out rapidly progressing only to hit a wall which XP potions can help
3. Gear limits - Free gear sucks but you can buy rights to better gear, outright selling it to you, gems to unlock features or upgrade gear.
4. Time limits - Crafting takes 8 hours of time to make something but with gems you can instantly make it. Or you can only craft x amount before your character runs out of action points and needs to wait for them to recharge.
5. Premium quests or zones
6. Buying money
And so on. In the end you likely spend more on a F2P game then one a P2P game. The sad thing is that many of these F2P games are great at low levels. Once you get sucked in and pay to get into the mid levels the games tend to become less fun.
Like I said a huge number of these F2P games are anything but free.... Rather they are money grabs where you play for free for a couple weeks then they start sucking you dry for upgrades and in the end you pay more and are less satisfied.
Only a few F2P games are actually worth playing at all.
Life with P2P games was definately better. You paid a set amount and you could play without worrying about being nickel and dimed to death or having to deal with unbalanced game play made up for by spending money....
Nearly everyone who talks about subs being good because of the reasons you give above seems to assume that f2p is the only alternative.
B2p offers the same benefits you ascribe to p2p above and doesn't require a game tax to continue playing the game.
Another similar theme is this "f2p are more expensive". I don't particularly like the f2p model (I would much prefer to just buy something and know exactly what I am getting) but it is also true that f2p can easily be much cheaper and give you all the QoL benefits you get in sub games.
What I don't understand is why some people are so attached to paying a sub. Obviously the f2p model is somewhat dodgy, but nearly every reason I read about why people prefer subs is covered in a b2p model. Why would you want to keep paying more when you could be getting the same thing for less?
Nearly everyone who talks about subs being good because of the reasons you give above seems to assume that f2p is the only alternative.
B2p offers the same benefits you ascribe to p2p above and doesn't require a game tax to continue playing the game.
Another similar theme is this "f2p are more expensive". I don't particularly like the f2p model (I would much prefer to just buy something and know exactly what I am getting) but it is also true that f2p can easily be much cheaper and give you all the QoL benefits you get in sub games.
What I don't understand is why some people are so attached to paying a sub. Obviously the f2p model is somewhat dodgy, but nearly every reason I read about why people prefer subs is covered in a b2p model. Why would you want to keep paying more when you could be getting the same thing for less?
Very much so.
But in any case, most games are not sub-only any more. Some games will have a sub-option ... but for most, either f2p or b2p will be available .. so all is good.
Raid has nothing to do with hardware breaking down because it's doing more. Neither does hot swapping. It seems like you are saying that there are procedures to cover the situation of hardware breakdown. Yes, but my point was that they use more hardware than a single player game in the sense of more players needing to know what all other players are doing = more usage. My thoughts were about physical usage, not fixing broken equipment.
RAIDs have everything to do with hardware breakdown. Idk how often hardware fails in your company, but hardware fails all the time. This is why our company (me and bailo) does not co-locate, but uses a datacenter and rents the servers (Maintenance is for free). Our server provider swaps our SSDs for free too. And those SSDs are Intel 520 series. Yes that is a desktop class and it fails every couple of months. (8-9). Also MMO servers does not work like a web server. Hard drive usage is minimalistic if at all. I/O operations are blocking operations, a server capable of housing millions of players would want as close as possible to zero I/O operations on the hard drive. Thus, everything is running on the RAM, with periodic asynchronous writes. Thus some MMOs have unexpected "rollbacks". Although there ARE ways to prevent this too xD
You claimed that single player games should be priced the same as sub games. Even a few bytes add up over time when you multiply it by more than one player (single player). You aren't comparing apples with apples there.
Diablo 3 and GTA V Online do have maintenance costs and no subscription fees. Which is Bailo's whole point.
If biometric is good enough for some of the piddly websites I've seen come through this company along with the banks. Yes, biometric usage can be in any co-location. It's not just for the wealthy, it's a component of building security. With all the people coming in and out they should not be able to access all areas, only those where they own machinery.
Your link is about cloud computing. My example of co-location was putting your computer in a housed area. That is not the same as cloud computing. Cloud computing is sharing computer resources. My example was sharing a building with other computers. The computers in a co-location network are not connected in a cloud. They are distinct machines owned by different people, therefore any cloud research does not apply. Bandwidth can get cheaper if you purchase more on monthly plans - surely you don't think everyone gets the bargaining power that Microsoft does when they go to a provider and say... so what will you charge me to use this service. Once you consume massive amounts, you as a customer are reliable and more valuable to keep as a customer. Too bad you don't consider and MMO as using large amounts of data (or not even enough to need an OC line) therefore any rates Microsoft could get (who patches every Tuesday) are not equivalent to what our teeny tiny "byte" using MMOs offer to pay over a lifetime.
Co-location is different than datacenter housing. Co-locating does require biometrics, sure since there are computers that do not belong to them and you shouldn't have physical access to my server no matter what. In a datacenter environment (which every professional MMOs are) that's whole another story.
The article I posted that was "4 years old" was developers talking about the systems involved in making an MMO versus other games.
A lot changes in 4 years. Everybody was using ICQ on a dial-up 10 years ago. Programming languages and tools change. Engines get developed and optimized.
I've used AWS and I know it has data limits and fees for usage over your plan rate. You get a little free and the rest is like a utility where you pay 00cents for usage. A MB line is not capable of supporting a large amount of users. Your microsoft research paper, again was on cloud computing. Cloud servers are not going to be routed the same way as individual servers in a co-location as mentioned above. Cloud servers are not the same as individual servers owned by different people in different rooms, cloud servers share space on networked computers and have a knowledge of each other. In a co-location, the only knowledgeable computer is via routing but you won't be able to login to my companies computer from your compute because yours doesn't know that mine exists. In a cloud computer if you can break out of your shell or sub directory, you can see other systems which aren't yours. It's the reason people don't like the idea of the cloud because it's a security risk to have data taken by a competitor or worse. So your thought is... it's cheaper to use a less secure system.... what are the odds.
One thing i don't understand. Why are you so hellbent on claiming that AAA MMO studios co-locate their servers?? Its evident that co-locating costs a lot more to maintenance than a datacenter, that every sane MMO developer would do. I doubt he implied that MMOs should use cloud computers, no. The idea is that a cheap to maintenance data center can be made, without paying 3rd party for housing. Which most AAA studios make anyway. The AWS was just an example. Also the Elastic Cloud is well routed. I've hosted teamspeak server on it. There was barely any lag to the Ireland datacenter.
What does development cost have to do with maintenance. The post I responded to said something like why should I pay a sub game monthly when online single player games can do it and not ask for a sub. I saw your link in the first post and it still prompted me to make my post, therefore it wasn't relevant to me. You can make anything take any cost you want to build it. Maintenance was on my mind and support. No, your contacted server also pays for incoming bandwidth. You don't understand the internet if you don't know this fact. How much more computer 101 do I need to put in this post. You pay your ISP to send and receive YOUR messages. The computer you talk to pays their ISP to send and receive THEIR messages. You might as well say - you pay to have an address on the internet, that's it. The data used is still subject to whatever rules are on your line and there are different pipes and different plans for different reasons. This isn't welfare on the internet. It's a premium service.
Woah, the internet works like your cell phone. WHAT SORCERY IS THIS (notice the sarcasm)
I didn't say our company pays 30k. I gave you the cost of a high speed fiber line - something you would need if you pass lots of traffic. Something in the range of millions of players - which is what people seem to consider population of value. OC traffic is good, look it up, you'll like it.
Speak in numbers, how much traffic do you think a MMO like, say, FFXIV uses with, say, 500k subs, addressing the fact that those are never concurrent! I'm pretty sure there are websites that generate a lot more traffic than your average MMO, but whatever really. (And im not talking of the likes of google,facebook,amazon etc). Also you don't need the highest speed line, I haven't seen a MMO with such line YET. 120ms is acceptable PING. I have fiber optics to my home and most online games ping about 120ms or higher than that. (MMOs!) In first person shooters i usually get around 20, but i only play in regional servers.
P.S: The answer is - not much.
tl;dr - Only a crazy person will host a MMO in a co-location center. So half of your argument is plain wrong.
Comments
Not to worry, wow may just do it again, not give people a year with no update still people pay in $15 for it, if was less I can understand as server do cost money to run, but they going rank more money maybe a new mount in there cash shop few million more. And top of that pay for are new expansion give us more of your money.
F2p, B2p, or sub even way people get sucker in to pay out more, welcome to max profit.
This is all like super-good stuff. Honestly, I once worked for an eCommerce solution provider who was pretty big, pushing like half a billion a year in transactions, millions of hits daily, etc., etc. and our server costs were about $15k monthly. Oh, and that's also 7 or 8 years ago now, so the costs were much more costly. Oh, and that was the cost for an entire server farm. We didn't host a damn thing, though, didn't maintain it, didn't have to pay for any hardware, didn't need to pay for monitoring. It was all hosted in some super-secret broke-ass warehouse looking place in NJ where the security was probably greater than Ft. Knox. I'd be willing to bet that you could get a very viable solution these days, for a gaming server, in the neighbourhood of 5-8k/month. Oh, and if you're not making that monthly with your game, then it's probably time to throw in the towel anyway.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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No one will argue that there is a cost the issue is that it is not $15/month; obviously the number of subscribers is a factor but $1/year should be more than enough for the hosting element.
Subscription is more more practical for come gamer and more affordable . F2P and B2W usually fall in the same catagory and in the long run you pay more than subscription based . One does not realize a abit here and there will be way more than a subscription . Can any one afford this sort of gaming in the long run . Not to mention f2p is current trend but what are the long term implications . F2p works if done right but its way more expensive on the average gamer and you thyink its cheaper when some games dont have the reveneue stream on such models .
Interesting comments, opinions, interpretations and sub-discussions about economics and business.
But in the end, as a player, as a consumer of games, as a fan of MMOs and MMORPGs
My choice will be SUB first when compared to all the negative experience and downsides and hassle of F2P games.
And provided, we actually have that choice.
With a Sub, the mind is at rest, that next patch will not rip off yet again something from the game and place it in the shop because the CEO asked for a 5% Quarterly profit increase in the last Meeting.
That is the problem with F2P games in my opinion they are not driven by "hey lets make the game better and more fun" by Game developers and designers, they are rather driven by Financial reports and Administrators.
I do not want a 50 slot inventory anymore which I can buy expansion Tickets to make bigger.
I want to start my character and have a 500+ Inventory. Unhindered by limitations intentionally implemented to support a F2P model.
And I prefer to pay a sub for it and just play the game and find what I find and sell what I sell and keep and not break my head and deal with the frustration of the intentional limitations of a F2P game.
it is not fun..as simple as that.
And that is the most important aspect I believe here.
I come to play an MMO to have fun, is anyone actually making one with the intent to provide fun?
Fun should be the driving force of a game's design, but it seems now Monetization is the driving force.
Look at EQLandmark...a glorified Minecraft that has been Monetized in a specific Platform... but that is not what made Minecraft's popularity. Freedom is what made it, freedom to be creative, not limits nor boundaries or parameters of a platform. A shop to sell one; creations is not what made Minecraft popular nor the limit of Landscape and having to buy more plots of land.
I would rather play in a Huge Hosted Server of Minecraft as is with a Sub than a F2P EQLandmark with all these limitations.
So the biggest problem for me has been the quality of the experience the quality of the gameplay the quality of the fun, which has plumetted with F2P because of all the limitations.
How much more Fun is Uncharted Waters Online in Japan with the SUB compared to its International F2P counterpart. The difference is astonishing.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
If you want to be RMT free, you don't need to have a sub to do that .. box games can do that.
Look at D3 .. it is always online, and all the MP games are practical the same as dungeon instances in a MMO .. and it does not to charge a sub.
Plus, you are right .. i am not valued a RMT-free game. There are plenty of fun games with RMT .. marvel heroes, warframe, .... and i have no issue if some whales want to subsidize a free portion of the game for me.
It seems that lately they are.
SWToR was said to cost 200 million.
According to this it cost WoW 200 million over the first four years to develop and and run:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/15/a-look-at-game-budgets-and-mmo-budgets/
But again, let's do the math.
It's not just about mmo's costing x, but that they cost x and are sold to "y" mount of players.
So, the secret world sold 400k units which is 24 million dollars. It cost 50 million to develop.
http://kotaku.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-make-a-big-video-game-1501413649
http://evilasahobby.com/2012/08/11/the-secret-world-half-as-successful-as-conan/
so where does the extra money come from to keep it afloat?
If Tera cost 50 million to develop what were their sales?
That's the issue here. Because MMO's. don't really sell as much as successful single player games.
Guild Wars 2 is the black horse here but there is so much on what it is making, taking in, etc. I've seen positive news reports only to see that people are questioning if the numbers are really reflecting what is being said. I have not looked at their latest financial report so I can't really see what is going on, at least with some shallow understanding.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Think it was ~57 mil profit (after the costs). That didn't stop people for screaming the game is dying xD Wish my company was making 50 mil in 4 months. Oh well.
And yeah some MMOs really go over the top. SWTOR and TESO are the best examples of that. And even after all this funding they still had botched launches. And asked players for subs. Gw2 had none of that, and the game is profiting.
Plus you make a good point. MMOs don't have as many sales as a good AAA SP title. I can agree and disagree with this statement because it really varies from game to game. But generally speaking, that rental fee seriously pushes people away. I like to own the stuff i pay for. Sub games do not give me that feeling. And I'm sure many people agree. Gw2's initial sales showed just that. Sure, the game had massive hype train, and pre-order locked beta. That doesn't change the fact that the game is good and earned all its money by providing good entertainment.
GTA V online is the same
The Crew, always online, no SP campaign racing game in a huge open world with real people, still no subs.
Those are online, massive games, with the same costs and requirements as other MMOs.
I'm sorry, I just don't see how a sub is justified. 4 month sub is equal to a brand new game.
First off, ask those "other people" how many minutes they use their phone in order "to feel they are getting their moneys worth" or how many hours of TV they watch in order to "justify" their cable bill. If they say, "Those are utilities and are different, remind them TV is entertainment and cell phones are basically mobile games now. Then throw in NetFlix and GameFly for good measure. That "logic" is deeply flawed in my opinion
Secondly, and to your question, No. Why take away some players' preferred method of payment? Just because some players do not like it? Well, hell. I do not like chilli peppers. Maybe we should ban their use? Or better yet, cash shops and F2P games, which I despise.
No, choices are usually a good thing. The only reason players want some choice taken away is because they fear that their own preference will be taken away, so they want any alternative banned so that no other choice but their preference is available. This is truly a show of entitlement wanting EVERY GAME to be what they prefer.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Anyone who thinks that MMOs are not expensive to make needs a massive reality check. They are easily the most expensive type of game you can attempt to make. Sometimes they get topped by certain single player games that blow a massive budget on licensing and marketting, but that's the exception.
That said it is possible to make an MMO for a lot cheaper, but it's going to look / play like a game that's from 10-15 yrs ago. It's also going to have less than half the features people on these forums seem to claim every MMO should have to be a real game. Make it cheap enough, and it may actually be able to make some money. But probably still wouldn't be worth the effort.
Totally agree on this.
I rather pay a sub than have to deal with those atrociuos cash shops & cash-locked content.
You say that as if those games don't have cash shops.
It's even more expensive than in the West.
I do play box games. Both single player and multiplayer.
Thing is I do want also a very specific type of mmorpg aka virtual world. Not because I don't have enough box games, I do there is plenty of them of many types, etc
Apples and oragnes though. Endless supply of many kinds and types of best oranges are not a substitute for a good apple.
Anyway does not matter. Industry does not want to and frankly is propably even unable to provide what I want so. This is more like purely "academic" discussion.
Heh. Sometimes I wonder if you guys actually play P2P games or you just run your mouths in your free time.
P2P games have cash shops.
P2P games lock content behind "deluxe editions"
You also rent the game.
There are hackers, botters, cheaters, dupers (lol, it was fun seeing people duping shit in TESO)
There are gold sellers, there are spammers.
I really don't see the quality you all claim. And I used to pay subs (Lineage 2 for few years). I also used to buy items off of eBay. And I also bought gold. What ... L2 was quite the grindfest, sometimes i just had too much and swung my parent's credit card
Tunnel vision much?
Nobody is saying those games are free to produce. Software is still expensive compared to other industries and software engineers are well payed because of it. But. Compared to the rest of gaming industries, the AAA section (not the indies), MMOs are not that much, if at all, more expensive than their SP/Online counterparts.
Diablo, Battle.Net, LoL, Dota 2, GTA V, Guild Wars 2, Hearthstone and many others ... do you think those run on air? Or that they aren't generating profits? The only paywall to people is the box price (some are even free). We already know that most gamers are happy to sink $60 for a good game.
Subscription makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in today.
Thus I haven't played any P2P games for real, outside the $60 trial period.
I agree however that 10 years ago when EVE/WoW/Lineage 2 launched, a sub was necessary to keep things moving because of the sheer price of hardware and networking back then. Also network tools weren't as efficient and the internet overall wasn't as good.
Today though ... I simply don't see it.
Today you can even purchase the most vital part of your game - the engine, for an okay price. And this engine is coming with full dev support and building tools. Hell, for $15/mo. you can get the Unreal Engine 4 source code. For few thousand bucks you don't even have to pay them once u launch the game. That's some premium shit.
Yes, they are. They are all fruit, and give you vitamen C. In fact, you play other games than virtual world MMOs ... so they *are* substitute. They are not perfect substitute, and the market does not provide the variety you want ... but the market don't cater to every individual, and it has no obligation to do so.
In fact, having an endless supply of best oranges is not a bad deal in the light of a apple shortage. At least it is way better than no fruit at all.
I'm coming to hate F2P games more and more. There are a few that are ok but the vast majority of F2P require that you pay and pay a lot to enjoy the game. They find ways to inconvenience you into paying. They also tend to front load it knowing that you will leave the game soon...
Here are some great examples
1. Inventory space - this one forces you to buy space just after you get through the newbie experience and are hooked
2. Slow xp gain - Start you out rapidly progressing only to hit a wall which XP potions can help
3. Gear limits - Free gear sucks but you can buy rights to better gear, outright selling it to you, gems to unlock features or upgrade gear.
4. Time limits - Crafting takes 8 hours of time to make something but with gems you can instantly make it. Or you can only craft x amount before your character runs out of action points and needs to wait for them to recharge.
5. Premium quests or zones
6. Buying money
And so on. In the end you likely spend more on a F2P game then one a P2P game. The sad thing is that many of these F2P games are great at low levels. Once you get sucked in and pay to get into the mid levels the games tend to become less fun.
Like I said a huge number of these F2P games are anything but free.... Rather they are money grabs where you play for free for a couple weeks then they start sucking you dry for upgrades and in the end you pay more and are less satisfied.
Only a few F2P games are actually worth playing at all.
Life with P2P games was definately better. You paid a set amount and you could play without worrying about being nickel and dimed to death or having to deal with unbalanced game play made up for by spending money....
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Ethion
When I bought EQ: Ruins of Kunark, it was the exact same game that everyone who bought it got. Did EQ have a "Collector's Edition" right off the bat? I have no idea. I just Googled it an the only one I saw listed was for the "10h Anniversary Collector's Edition." EQ never had a Cash Shop until it went F2P a few years ago.
I think City of Heroes may have had a CE, but am not sure. I know they later had "Special Editions" of their expansions that sometimes included "extras" that other players did not get. CoH also did not have a Cash Shop until later in its life.
There were recourse and actions to be taken with hackers, botters, cheaters, dupers, gold sellers, and spammers. The difference I see in P2P and B2P/F2P is that a "ban" meant something. But that was a double-edged sword. Sure, that player lost their account and all the characters/items/levels/time, but the company also lost their $15 a month. The Old P2P games actually had customer service, a lost business practice today. They had IN GAME GMs that solved troubles quickly and IN GAME. Sometimes, those same GMs would run server-wide events on tjhe spur of the moment or announced a s planned event. THAT was what part of the subscription money went to pay for.
My point being: P2P MMOs have not always been as they are today. Matter of fact, the older games were barely recognizable compared to today's obvious money grabs.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
And we are not in those days anymore, and whatever the games were like then ... is not really that relevant to today's marketplace.
Nearly everyone who talks about subs being good because of the reasons you give above seems to assume that f2p is the only alternative.
B2p offers the same benefits you ascribe to p2p above and doesn't require a game tax to continue playing the game.
Another similar theme is this "f2p are more expensive". I don't particularly like the f2p model (I would much prefer to just buy something and know exactly what I am getting) but it is also true that f2p can easily be much cheaper and give you all the QoL benefits you get in sub games.
What I don't understand is why some people are so attached to paying a sub. Obviously the f2p model is somewhat dodgy, but nearly every reason I read about why people prefer subs is covered in a b2p model. Why would you want to keep paying more when you could be getting the same thing for less?
Very much so.
But in any case, most games are not sub-only any more. Some games will have a sub-option ... but for most, either f2p or b2p will be available .. so all is good.
tl;dr - Only a crazy person will host a MMO in a co-location center. So half of your argument is plain wrong.