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Should the subscription model go away?

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  • GoldenArrowGoldenArrow Member UncommonPosts: 1,185

    Cash Shops that have _anything else_ but cosmetics/account services need to go. They are the most player-abusing system ever created.

    Good P2P models: WoW, ESO and FFXIV

    Good B2P models: One with starting price + price for additional content and only cosmetic cash shop. (Doesn't exist)

    Good F2P models: Game itself free but offers vip subscription i.e limited to a monthly payment with cosmetic cash shop.

     

    Just recently went back to WoW (30€ expansion + 20€ for 2 months) which is quite a lot but the game feels very relaxing and equal compared to F2P/B2P games I have played before.

     

    Fuck whales, cap the monthly payments.

  • reemireemi Member UncommonPosts: 44

    No, 

    I played so many mmorpg and now I only play mmorpg with subs. Better experience, less kids, more dedicated player, less item shop, more obtainable items, more updates usually, better  service usually.... and more!

     

    Note; Currently playing ESO and it worth my 15$ every months.

  • zaberfangxzaberfangx Member UncommonPosts: 1,796
    Originally posted by travamars
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Rusque
    Originally posted by travamars
    I think there should only be sub games. I cant afford to play free games, they cost to much.

    Amen.

    Those of us who actually support the games we play know that F2P costs way more than $15/mo. Give me a B2P or P2P any day.

    I don't pay $180+ per year per game (just to rent access) for any of my F2P games. At the most I spend $50 - $60 every 6 months or so. Since most every "P2P" game has a cash shop and RMT now, it becomes a much more expensive game. $180 is the baseline plus there are xpac costs ($60) plus the cash shop plus the RMT. I can play, support, and enjoy sub-free games much cheaper.

    In the last year I've spent:

    LotRO: $85

    EQ2: $80

    Neverwinter Online: $70

    Marvel Heroes: $70

    Tera: $0

    GW2: $0

    STO: $0

    TSW: $30

    Rift: $35

    Eldevin: $30

    WoW: $15 - I stopped after the month because there was no way the game was worth $180+ a year in rental fees, cash shop costs, and dlc/xpac fees. It was the worst game I played this year.

    That's the funny thing about P2P zealots. They keep trying to sell that their rental fee thing is so much cheaper.

    Doesn't matter what YOU spent. Most serious gamers want access to ALL of the game. If your just a casual gamer who doesnt mind running back and forth emptying your one bag because you dont HAVE to buy more bags, more power to you. But some people dont like to play at a disadvantage. From all the games you posted and the amount spent on them, apparently you didnt spend enough to make them enjoyable or you wouldnt have been jumping around from game to game.

    F2P or B2P do have some thing can't access in the game, sub as well, there are thing can't access with out spending more time out your life to access them in to a grind, this what casual gamer face, can't raid due to work, can't get the high pvp ranks due to work, don't get access to all of the game, if can't get to it with your $15 or in other model just life of a mmo.

     

    Bag part any model try to limit people bag size at start, with Rift I think only mmo that one can just sell right in to the store with out running back and forth to a npc.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,773
    Originally posted by travamars
     

    Doesn't matter what YOU spent. Most serious gamers want access to ALL of the game. If your just a casual gamer who doesnt mind running back and forth emptying your one bag because you dont HAVE to buy more bags, more power to you. But some people dont like to play at a disadvantage. From all the games you posted and the amount spent on them, apparently you didnt spend enough to make them enjoyable or you wouldnt have been jumping around from game to game.

    hmm ... given that most MMOs have cash shops, including the p2p ones, and that all single player games have DLCs ... i highly doubt either a) most serious gamers want access to ALL of the game, or b) devs cares about serious gamers.

    Take your pick.

     

  • Vladric_HellsingerVladric_Hellsinger Member Posts: 27
    Originally posted by AIMonster

    Subscriptions are fine, but $15 a month is no longer justified with current bandwidth and development costs if these companies are planning to churn out full or close to full priced expansions every year.  Prices should be reduced to $5-$10 a month depending on the quality of the game.  F2P and B2P with reasonable item malls that don't sell power are also good options.

    On a side note to the OP:  FFXIV does not have 2 million subs.  This was proven by a statement by Square Enix recently where their 3 MMOs combined have ALMOST 1 million subs.  It's more likely sitting at 800-900k subs if it's even that high.

    That article was from like 2 or 3 months after the game released. It's so old and outdated. It also says on their website they have over 2 million subscribers. 

  • VikingGamerVikingGamer Member UncommonPosts: 1,350
    No.

    All die, so die well.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Originally posted by Lazzaro

    I will sub to a 'good' game any day over a F2P.

    I think there are a lot of good games with subs.  Do you really mean good?  Perhaps you mean great?  Or Perfect?  Or have a long checklist of things that makes a game a pile of crap if it has even a single thing checked?

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

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    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • zaberfangxzaberfangx Member UncommonPosts: 1,796
    Originally posted by Vladric_Hellsinger
    Originally posted by AIMonster

    Subscriptions are fine, but $15 a month is no longer justified with current bandwidth and development costs if these companies are planning to churn out full or close to full priced expansions every year.  Prices should be reduced to $5-$10 a month depending on the quality of the game.  F2P and B2P with reasonable item malls that don't sell power are also good options.

    On a side note to the OP:  FFXIV does not have 2 million subs.  This was proven by a statement by Square Enix recently where their 3 MMOs combined have ALMOST 1 million subs.  It's more likely sitting at 800-900k subs if it's even that high.

    That article was from like 2 or 3 months after the game released. It's so old and outdated. It also says on their website they have over 2 million subscribers. 

    Was it over 2 mil register user? not sub the web site claim. I went to check is not up there anymore. And with how many server what someone said they have about 64 server, as number don't fit, to have about player 30K+ per server.

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,954

    I'll pay a sub if the game is new and I want to check it out or if I find it really addictive like I did with SWTOR when it first came out (loved the class story lines).  Now I play a lot of MMO's none of which I'm paying a sub. 

     

    I'm surprised the subscription models have not changed much in all these years and has remained a set standard, except for some games adding tax or including the credit card fees in the sub.  They really should make the sub model more flexible.  With a one day sub, a weekend sub., or a weekly sub at least.  I do like how some games allow you to convert in-game credits for subscription purchases, basically allowing you to play for free.  I also like how some sub games offer a free week once or twice a year so players can determine if they wish to return.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 Member Posts: 410
    Originally posted by travamars
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Rusque
    Originally posted by travamars
    I think there should only be sub games. I cant afford to play free games, they cost to much.

    Amen.

    Those of us who actually support the games we play know that F2P costs way more than $15/mo. Give me a B2P or P2P any day.

    I don't pay $180+ per year per game (just to rent access) for any of my F2P games. At the most I spend $50 - $60 every 6 months or so. Since most every "P2P" game has a cash shop and RMT now, it becomes a much more expensive game. $180 is the baseline plus there are xpac costs ($60) plus the cash shop plus the RMT. I can play, support, and enjoy sub-free games much cheaper.

    In the last year I've spent:

    LotRO: $85

    EQ2: $80

    Neverwinter Online: $70

    Marvel Heroes: $70

    Tera: $0

    GW2: $0

    STO: $0

    TSW: $30

    Rift: $35

    Eldevin: $30

    WoW: $15 - I stopped after the month because there was no way the game was worth $180+ a year in rental fees, cash shop costs, and dlc/xpac fees. It was the worst game I played this year.

    That's the funny thing about P2P zealots. They keep trying to sell that their rental fee thing is so much cheaper.

    Doesn't matter what YOU spent. Most serious gamers want access to ALL of the game. If your just a casual gamer who doesnt mind running back and forth emptying your one bag because you dont HAVE to buy more bags, more power to you. But some people dont like to play at a disadvantage. From all the games you posted and the amount spent on them, apparently you didnt spend enough to make them enjoyable or you wouldnt have been jumping around from game to game.

    Im sure in Gw2 you have a lot more inventory slots than some recently released and old P2P titles

    But even so, redneck Joe will come here complaining about bag space. 

    Why do I even bother explaining. 

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,418
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Rusque
    Originally posted by travamars
    I think there should only be sub games. I cant afford to play free games, they cost to much.

    Amen.

    Those of us who actually support the games we play know that F2P costs way more than $15/mo. Give me a B2P or P2P any day.

    I don't pay $180+ per year per game (just to rent access) for any of my F2P games. At the most I spend $50 - $60 every 6 months or so. Since most every "P2P" game has a cash shop and RMT now, it becomes a much more expensive game. $180 is the baseline plus there are xpac costs ($60) plus the cash shop plus the RMT. I can play, support, and enjoy sub-free games much cheaper.

    In the last year I've spent:

    LotRO: $85

    EQ2: $80

    Neverwinter Online: $70

    Marvel Heroes: $70

    Tera: $0

    GW2: $0

    STO: $0

    TSW: $30

    Rift: $35

    Eldevin: $30

    WoW: $15 - I stopped after the month because there was no way the game was worth $180+ a year in rental fees, cash shop costs, and dlc/xpac fees. It was the worst game I played this year.

    That's the funny thing about P2P zealots. They keep trying to sell that their rental fee thing is so much cheaper.

    I have to agree, I play quite a few of the games on your list and have spent about the same amounts or less than you. I know there are people that pay a lot more, but there are also people that don't pay at all.

     

    I also have subs to FF14 and ESO and while the games themselves are great, the game tax (sub) really pisses me off. Its not like either of those two games are substantially better than many other mmos (f2p or b2p), and they actually are not better than some single player rpgs like DAI that I only payed for once. 

     

    The only arguments I have seen for justifying a sub are that the money is spent developing the game, keeping the servers up, providing support, and that it keeps the riff-raff out. Its nice to see that FF14 and ESO actually seem to be using the sub money for such ends, but as far as I can see you could achieve the same thing with a box price, cosmetics/services cash shop, and paid dlc/expansions released periodically. How is that not better for consumers than having to pay a sub for every game you are interested in playing?

     

    I AMAZES me that people tolerate Blizzard charging them a sub and making them pay nearly the price of a new game for their expansions (as well as having a cash shop etc). Its like daylight robbery, and people actually defend it! Every subscriber is basically paying them the price of a whole new game every four months and they get to sell any substantial content updates on top of that. Its like they are releasing a million unit selling new game every four months or so with a fraction of the development costs it would take to make a new game.

    ....
  • mayankingmayanking Member UncommonPosts: 162
    i think they should get rid of subs haven't seen a company deliver the amount of content you get from paying a sub. i'd rather pay for expanions then spend a month of no updates and such
  • YamotaYamota Member UncommonPosts: 6,593
    No, F2P and cash shops need to go away, along with all players who like them. MMOs were better 10 years ago, than now. Only thing which has improved is the GFX and combat, all other gameplay elements have become dumbed down and simple and now there is always the possibility to buy stuff with real money instead of earning it by playing the game.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,931
    Originally posted by YashaX
     

    I have to agree, I play quite a few of the games on your list and have spent about the same amounts or less than you. I know there are people that pay a lot more, but there are also people that don't pay at all.

     

    I also have subs to FF14 and ESO and while the games themselves are great, the game tax (sub) really pisses me off. Its not like either of those two games are substantially better than many other mmos (f2p or b2p), and they actually are not better than some single player rpgs like DAI that I only payed for once. 

     

    The only arguments I have seen for justifying a sub are that the money is spent developing the game, keeping the servers up, providing support, and that it keeps the riff-raff out. Its nice to see that FF14 and ESO actually seem to be using the sub money for such ends, but as far as I can see you could achieve the same thing with a box price, cosmetics/services cash shop, and paid dlc/expansions released periodically. How is that not better for consumers than having to pay a sub for every game you are interested in playing?

     

    I AMAZES me that people tolerate Blizzard charging them a sub and making them pay nearly the price of a new game for their expansions (as well as having a cash shop etc). Its like daylight robbery, and people actually defend it! Every subscriber is basically paying them the price of a whole new game every four months and they get to sell any substantial content updates on top of that. Its like they are releasing a million unit selling new game every four months or so with a fraction of the development costs it would take to make a new game.

    The only reason why free to play works is that it allows people to the game without strings in the hope that it will make them a customer.

    THEN it uncaps what a person can pay so that a small amount of people fund the game with larger amounts of money and that hopefuly the larger mass of people will throw a few bucks the company's way.

    The company then hopes that will be enough to make ends meet. Even the head guy there for Final Fantasy 14 said that it's safer and easier to budget with a sub as it won't fluctuate as much as the income from f2p. 

    So let's do a little math and some "fun" conjecture.

    If 250k people (a decentish amount of people  for an mmo as the dont' all claim WoW numbers by far) paid the 30.00 (as above) for a year of "the secret world, with a 60.00 up front "box price" then that gives us 22.5 million.

    Dollars.

    For a game that costs much more to initially develop and then you need regular upkeep (which people will take to mean the connections for the players to connect to the game but in reality means keeping the company running) not to mention enough money to put out some sort of expansions.

    That won't be as much as the game cost to develop if they are to put out a significant expansion then they are going to have to keep the company up and running for as long as it takes. 

    Here is an interesting (and I suppose, older) post by Raph Koster on what goes into funding and continuing mmo development. Though some of this might not be applicable today, most notably packing and putting the game into stores (though there is still some of this) most of what he says I have read in various developer posts since I started seriously following mmo's.

     

    http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/busmodels.shtml

    It costs a lot of money to develop and maintain these things, seemingly more than single player games.

    If those whales ever wise up then that's it, "game over" (of course they won't).




  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,773
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    It costs a lot of money to develop and maintain these things, seemingly more than single player games.

    If those whales ever wise up then that's it, "game over" (of course they won't).

    If the whales wise up ... the f2p mmo market would not have grown to such a big size. This is no difference than the booze market, or the cigarette market, or the gambling market.

     

  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    It costs a lot of money to develop and maintain these things, seemingly more than single player games.

    If those whales ever wise up then that's it, "game over" (of course they won't).

    If the whales wise up ... the f2p mmo market would not have grown to such a big size. This is no difference than the booze market, or the cigarette market, or the gambling market.

     

     Gambling is a fair comparison.  Alchohol and Cigarettes though are/can be chemically addicting, which is a little different.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,807
    Originally posted by Vladric_Hellsinger
       Recently, I have seen many people in game and on various sites complain about  paying a subscription fee. They describe they feel like they are being forced to play the game just to get their sub time worth. Also with many games doing the whole "free to play and cash shop" combo many developers see lots of profit in that. Let's not forget the B2P without a sub and a cashshop. (Looking at Guild Wars 2 which is really doing good as well.) Heck, even some games like SWTOR converted from sub based only to a freemium model with a cash shop and they make a good profit off of it as well. 
     
       Since WOW is really the only game that has been subscription based and a huge success over these past 10 years. (Also FFXIV. Over 2 million subs.) That's really only a whopping two games. I have a feeling that subs will be an even lesser option as the MMO genre continues forward.  
     
     
     
       So my question to you is should subscriptions remain or go away completely?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,773
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    It costs a lot of money to develop and maintain these things, seemingly more than single player games.

    If those whales ever wise up then that's it, "game over" (of course they won't).

    If the whales wise up ... the f2p mmo market would not have grown to such a big size. This is no difference than the booze market, or the cigarette market, or the gambling market.

     

     Gambling is a fair comparison.  Alchohol and Cigarettes though are/can be chemically addicting, which is a little different.

    True .. and the alcohol market includes wine, which is a totally different story (you can tell, i like wine).

     

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,931
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    It costs a lot of money to develop and maintain these things, seemingly more than single player games.

    If those whales ever wise up then that's it, "game over" (of course they won't).

    If the whales wise up ... the f2p mmo market would not have grown to such a big size. This is no difference than the booze market, or the cigarette market, or the gambling market.

     

    Hence the "of course they won't".

    Keep in mind that any f2p game has to keep their whales. As soon as they move on then there will be serious issues. Probably one of the reasons why f2p games in china have a planned obsolescence. 

    There was an interview with a gentleman who used to be big in the real money trading business. I believe it was at the GDC, and he was heading a panel of monetizing "your game".

    He laid out the road map for f2p games in china, part of it was pushing new servers, more servers and essentially milking as much as could be milked. After which they would sunset the game and do it all over again. 

    They pretty much had it down to a science as to how long they could do this, what they needed to do to get people to spend and then once the whales moved on they closed up shop.

    Here in the west we have the idea of keeping a game around for a while.

    Interesting that even though Lord of the Rings online did very well with its initial f2p conversion, it doesn't really feel to be "all that" at this point in time.




  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by Vladric_Hellsinger
       Recently, I have seen many people in game and on various sites complain about  paying a subscription fee.

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,418
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by YashaX
     

    I have to agree, I play quite a few of the games on your list and have spent about the same amounts or less than you. I know there are people that pay a lot more, but there are also people that don't pay at all.

     

    I also have subs to FF14 and ESO and while the games themselves are great, the game tax (sub) really pisses me off. Its not like either of those two games are substantially better than many other mmos (f2p or b2p), and they actually are not better than some single player rpgs like DAI that I only payed for once. 

     

    The only arguments I have seen for justifying a sub are that the money is spent developing the game, keeping the servers up, providing support, and that it keeps the riff-raff out. Its nice to see that FF14 and ESO actually seem to be using the sub money for such ends, but as far as I can see you could achieve the same thing with a box price, cosmetics/services cash shop, and paid dlc/expansions released periodically. How is that not better for consumers than having to pay a sub for every game you are interested in playing?

     

    I AMAZES me that people tolerate Blizzard charging them a sub and making them pay nearly the price of a new game for their expansions (as well as having a cash shop etc). Its like daylight robbery, and people actually defend it! Every subscriber is basically paying them the price of a whole new game every four months and they get to sell any substantial content updates on top of that. Its like they are releasing a million unit selling new game every four months or so with a fraction of the development costs it would take to make a new game.

    The only reason why free to play works is that it allows people to the game without strings in the hope that it will make them a customer.

    THEN it uncaps what a person can pay so that a small amount of people fund the game with larger amounts of money and that hopefuly the larger mass of people will throw a few bucks the company's way.

    The company then hopes that will be enough to make ends meet. Even the head guy there for Final Fantasy 14 said that it's safer and easier to budget with a sub as it won't fluctuate as much as the income from f2p. 

    So let's do a little math and some "fun" conjecture.

    If 250k people (a decentish amount of people  for an mmo as the dont' all claim WoW numbers by far) paid the 30.00 (as above) for a year of "the secret world, with a 60.00 up front "box price" then that gives us 22.5 million.

    Dollars.

    For a game that costs much more to initially develop and then you need regular upkeep (which people will take to mean the connections for the players to connect to the game but in reality means keeping the company running) not to mention enough money to put out some sort of expansions.

    That won't be as much as the game cost to develop if they are to put out a significant expansion then they are going to have to keep the company up and running for as long as it takes. 

    Here is an interesting (and I suppose, older) post by Raph Koster on what goes into funding and continuing mmo development. Though some of this might not be applicable today, most notably packing and putting the game into stores (though there is still some of this) most of what he says I have read in various developer posts since I started seriously following mmo's.

     

    http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/busmodels.shtml

    It costs a lot of money to develop and maintain these things, seemingly more than single player games.

    If those whales ever wise up then that's it, "game over" (of course they won't).

    I am not really interested in f2p, I don't think its a good system. It is certainly not as expensive as a sub for many players, but I dislike all the crap that comes with f2p.

     

    I am talking about b2p with paid expansions and services/cosmetics cash shop. Once an mmo is made it should be much cheaper to make expansions than to develop a whole new game. Also once up and running, I doubt an mmo generates a fraction of the expense it took to actually make it every for months or so. Why are we paying the price of a new game every four months? It doesn't make sense.

     

    ....
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,954

    Whales are in every game.  On-line gaming can be cheap unless you're into something like this...

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1SgEM6-B9g

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • hockeyplayrhockeyplayr Member UncommonPosts: 604
    they should split servers between p2p and f2p.  p2p has no cash shop. f2p does etc...
  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by hockeyplayr
    they should split servers between p2p and f2p.  p2p has no cash shop. f2p does etc...

    That won't work probably, because the whales are only spending money if they can get ahead of everyone else, not just their server.

    Whales will not be pleased if someone else can get for $15, that was off limits to others before that.

    People only spend money on diamonds because the diamond cartels limit supply,

    If you start selling diamonds for $15, it's no longer special to people.

  • hockeyplayrhockeyplayr Member UncommonPosts: 604
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by hockeyplayr
    they should split servers between p2p and f2p.  p2p has no cash shop. f2p does etc...

    That won't work probably, because the whales are only spending money if they can get ahead of everyone else, not just their server.

    Whales will not be pleased if someone else can get for $15, that was off limits to others before that.

    People only spend money on diamonds because the diamond cartels limit supply,

    If you start selling diamonds for $15, it's no longer special to people.

    The whales can buy their way to victory and they could do what rift does and allow free server transfers among f2p severs for f2p players so when they get bored then can dominate a whole new group.

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