I don't think sub model is going away, there just is a disproportionate amount of generic ahab (whale hunting) games. But as to why I'm replying here specifically, EoC is vaporware, NeoLand is..not on my radar, OoM, while it looks good in theory is in the "we're having trouble in kickstarter" land, and Black Watchmen is an ARG, which you can already play for free here...
...but it really helps to have working understanding and knowledge of TSW, because it is a cooperative with Funcom, in that game's canon.
Right, right, I'm not saying I researched them all and that they're the best games evah but just taking a headcount is all I wanted to do since someone made an absolute claim of doom.
I've heard of Neo's Land and Camelot Unchained didn't come up in the list but I know I remember 2015 as something relative to their process.
I don't know if we are getting off topic so I'll just read for awhile.
Now they're billing it as a MOBA, vying for steam greenlight.
I really think Camelot Unchained could be doing better. I've no clue what's holding it up.
Also, you know, I anticipate EQN and a couple others upcoming to be "freemium", or "you can play for free but you get more if you sub", like EQ2 is now. I'm not sure where freemium fits in the conversation, but it's a pay model that should be discussed if we're talking about subs vs f2p.
After seeing how classless and uncaring of game quality these developers are with F2P models and cash shops, I believe subscription models should be the only option. They can't be trusted with any other option.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Buy to Play - Release the game and produce yearly expansions. Possibly a cosmetic shop at most with appearance options and items that add particle effects to weapons that do not have an effect..etc.
Subscribe - Free to download / no box cost. The sub cost covers all future content additions. Possibly an expansion every 2 years.
I much prefer ffxi's system. It has a flat sub fee, 1 doller more a month for each character you add, but 1 character does everything. Only need multiple characters to hold extra stuff.
Ther's no cash shop at all, well at least when I played it. Dunno about now though.
The payments were taken out monthly automatically, so never had to worry about it.
Plus the game was designed to be a huge timesink, which kept the playerbase around for years, instead of what we got now.
Also had no immersion breaker at all, since everything in game was earned ingame, loved that part the most.
unfortunatly SE has changed over the years. Now with ffxiv arr it is a monthly sub, but they added a cash shop as well for cosmetic stuff
I think the folks over at Trion have this figured out. Patron subscriptions are a great deal but the game doesn't limit content for those that want to go free to play..
Yes I think the sub model should be abandoned. Replace it with buy to play and dlc or perhaps f2p, although I would prefer to just buy a game and play it rather than have to pay a sub or put up with the varied interpretations of f2p.
Recently, I have seen many people in game and on various sites complain about paying a subscription fee. They describe they feel like they are being forced to play the game just to get their sub time worth. Also with many games doing the whole "free to play and cash shop" combo many developers see lots of profit in that. Let's not forget the B2P without a sub and a cashshop. (Looking at Guild Wars 2 which is really doing good as well.) Heck, even some games like SWTOR converted from sub based only to a freemium model with a cash shop and they make a good profit off of it as well.
Since WOW is really the only game that has been subscription based and a huge success over these past 10 years. (Also FFXIV. Over 2 million subs.) That's really only a whopping two games. I have a feeling that subs will be an even lesser option as the MMO genre continues forward.
So my question to you is should subscriptions remain or go away completely?
Who cares? WoW and FF14 are doing great, in fact FF14 is doing so great that we are seeing more and more people register to the game since november 2014. Let the cry babies cry, less clowns to worry about in both great P2P MMO's
Want quality MMO?, you got to P2P, won't get quality in a F2P/P2W garbage.
Originally posted by emperorwings No. It filters out the ass hats. I'd rather play a game with 100 good people than 1000 ass hats. Sadly though someone is going to buy something which costs more than a sub in a f2p game and be happy with it so from a dev point of view we're only going to see more f2p cash shops and even sub cash shop games.
Paying $15 does not eliminate asshats at all, what it does bring however is entitled players who think that devs should lick the soles of their shoes because they paid measly 15 bucks
Seriously - how many times have you read *I am paying monthly for this, why is X,Y,Z not working.... blah blah blah", why are servers down when I pay... complaints complaints complaints.
The attitude should be - well I only paid $15 - so I guess I can't expect much for that, right? - How many P2P players have this attitude?
Like next to none - they all expect the devs to deliver nirvana to them 24/7
Come on now DMKano, this couldn't be more of a garbage statement. Yes, we know you're a big F2p advocate, but as much as I can respect a lot of what you say on these boards, this is just plain garbage. Entitled sub players, really? Way to spin it.
Obviously we can't put numbers up on which group has more of an entitled attitude. Experience alone in games puts the perception alone on it. After having been gaming MMO's for around 16 years, I never see that "I pay 15 dollars argument" from sub players. I always see these arguments from people that want sub games to be F2P. In my honest opinion and from all these years of gaming, I would say most of the people that believe in subs, know that we are paying for a service that the developers completely deserve. So many people just want everything for free now. I really doubt you are part of the group that thinks that developers should get nothing and everything should be free, but a large portion of the group you are defending thinks exactly that. Look at your beloved AA, this F2P group screamed and ran from this game when real dollar values were attached to anything.
Part I don't get people they want f2p to go away, but they did a nice number on wildstar to make it look like sub model coming back, with all the updates and content they had for a new open mmo, as little amount new people will not even try it or not worth there $15 to keep a sub model alive, when wildstar did all it can what sub model should of done.
But at the end people are killing some sub model as they keep going back to bigger game with there sub money, I am sure that will help sub model but is not, when everyone in 1 game not spending it around.
Who cares? WoW and FF14 are doing great, in fact FF14 is doing so great that we are seeing more and more people register to the game since november 2014. Let the cry babies cry, less clowns to worry about in both great P2P MMO's
Want quality MMO?, you got to P2P, won't get quality in a F2P/P2W garbage.
To be honest doesn't the sub model actually reflect the quality of the game, it is just how the devs get their money from the players.
While it is strue that there are far more cheap crap games as F2P or freemium a great game will earn it's money with any of the usual payment methods.
ESO have a sub, GW2 doesn't and both are quality games (even if you dislike one or the other for the gameplay that doesn't change the fact that they are well made).
TERA, LOTRO and Rift all have the F2P model now, nothing wrong with them.
I myself prefer P2P & B2P though, in P2P they dev get a steady income to (at least in theory) give us constant quality updates while B2P is enough to just sell skins. extra character slots and similar none game breakers.
With F2P and Freemium (I don't consider them the same, Freemium wants to be both P2P and F2P at the same time) they need people to buy a lot of stuff which means the stuff people have can all be bought in the itemshop, which in my meaning takes away a lot of the point of the game and makes the economy broken.
I have nothing against Subs, ive played most sub games going back to when Anarchy Online released.
Im prefering F2P games atm though, because ive found that, for me, if im paying a sub, i keep feeling obligated to log in every day, and stick to a single game so im not wasting money. I end up buring myself out. Im also pretty well done with the traditional themepark, Wildstar helped me realize that.
In the games im playing currently, Marvel Heroes and Warframe (granted not true MMOs), i only pay for things that have permanence within the game, classes, character slots, inventory space, ect. I limit how much I spend to $15 or less a month, if I spend anything. I can take breaks whenever I want and not feel like im losing anything, and I can bounce between a few games. I dont operate under the impression that because its a F2P game I should get everything for free.
This is what works for me, your milage, obviously will vary.
If they feel they are forced to play,then it obviously is not offering any FUN value because at 50 cents a day,i would hardly call that being forced,that would be a VERY sad argument.
Our internet costs far exceed that,so it would be like saying we should not pay for internet because we feel like we are being forced to use it all the time.Mt internet costs me 89 bucks a month that is what 6x any game sub fee and the internet alone by itself offers nothing more than a connection status,games offer a million x more value.
My stand on the issue is do away with cheap free gaming,i want to weed out all those crap games,the market is flooded with that junk,i rather see even just 5 games in total than all that other stuff i would not pay to play.
There is actually ONE reason and one only for allowing junk free games and is to allow a platform so that new developers can ply their trade,i mean they need feedback and to actually put their game out there to learn,so from that point it is ok.However as it is now,those low end developers are not trying to improve or take feedback as they claim,they are simply trying to make profit from whatever budget they can afford,it is NOT about QUALITY gaming for them,just a business.
Now there are some Indie guys not making any money at all,basically on life support,for them there is some passion no doubt but for many of these it is all about profiting from little value.Example the Gorgon lead is passionate,he loves his game and ideas however it would be a far cry to say his game is of the same quality as sub based games because it is not and neither are ANY of the cash shop games out there.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
P2P defenders are so clueless, it's not even funny.
Why do you think I can't P2W in <insert favorite MMO here>?
There are TONS of gold selling websites
They also sell developed characters with all the soul/character bound gear you can get.
With maximum enchants and buckets of gold.
Beating you would come down to few thousand dollars and pressing F1. (Depending on how popular the game is)
Not to mention that some of you are clueless jerks who just run their mouth when they have nothing better to do. Going lengths at saying that Gw2's cash shop is P2W. Yeah right ....
P.S: It's not even few thousand dollars. Back in the day in Lineage 2 I was buying boss jewelry from eBay for couple bucks. That was an year or so before I joined an alliance that could actually pull the grandbosses, which would drop just 1-3 jewels for hundreds of players participating in the raid. Lineage 2 was a sub game at the time, and i was a kid with lots of free time and mom and dad's credit cards at my disposal. Yeah, you just have to suck it up because I was able to pull out a 12vs2 and win. Paying the regular 15$/mo. fee, of course, like everyone else Overly geared paladins were quite the big deal.
Same thing was happening in WoW. I had a friend who was leveling toons to lvl 60 in a week and selling the said toon. That's how he made all his income. He sold Diablo 2 rare items who he farmed with a bot.
You just have to beat it in your thick skulls. There is always a way to P2W. Whether it is against the EULA or not, is of no concern. Who reads those EULAs anyway, right? If you have deep pockets and passion to be the best, there is always a way.
In the end quality trumps business model. If the game has quality, it will earn money, regardless of business model.
I personally would love it if all games could be B2P, latest examples being TSW, Gw2 and The Crew. Everything outside this business model is a cash grab cover up IMO. Subs are a lie. F2P is not really F2P. Freemium is neither free neither premium.
You weren't in this thread to talk about whether sub games should be around.
You came to tell us that free to play is better.
Oh and call things strawmen when rewriting history won't suffice or fool them.
Fingers to eyes > fingers to you > fingers back to eyes. I got it. It's clear now.
Yeah so anyway - whoever has an opinion on SUBSCRIPTION games, please continue.
Subscription is a lie. The updates are not continuous. Not all content content comes with the subscription (E.g. you have to purchase an expack), server housing is really not that expensive nowadays, neither is managing. And in no way it stops the P2W crowd.
What it does is keep players away, because lets face it, not many want to pay a box and a sub fee to find out that they've been scammed.
Subscription does not equal quality either (E.g. DFUW, and we all saw TESO's launch)
Game studios can survive on box sells alone. And survive well. Even with low populations.
I hope this is explanation enough for you. Modern day subscriptions are plain and simple cash grab.
Idk if F2P/Freemium is the future, but subscription based anything is history.
P.S: League of Legends probably has more expenses on servers than WoW. It can be played with 0$ investment. And it will still earn money. Hell, even Hearthstone probably requires just about the same server power that WoW requires to host all those players.
You weren't in this thread to talk about whether sub games should be around.
You came to tell us that free to play is better.
Oh and call things strawmen when rewriting history won't suffice or fool them.
Fingers to eyes > fingers to you > fingers back to eyes. I got it. It's clear now.
Yeah so anyway - whoever has an opinion on SUBSCRIPTION games, please continue.
Subscription is a lie. The updates are not continuous. Not all content content comes with the subscription (E.g. you have to purchase an expack), server housing is really not that expensive nowadays, neither is managing. And in no way it stops the P2W crowd.
What it does is keep players away, because lets face it, not many want to pay a box and a sub fee to find out that they've been scammed.
Subscription does not equal quality either (E.g. DFUW, and we all saw TESO's launch)
Game studios can survive on box sells alone. And survive well. Even with low populations.
I hope this is explanation enough for you. Modern day subscriptions are plain and simple cash grab.
Idk if F2P/Freemium is the future, but subscription based anything is history.
P.S: League of Legends probably has more expenses on servers than WoW. It can be played with 0$ investment. And it will still earn money. Hell, even Hearthstone probably requires just about the same server power that WoW requires to host all those players.
Leon1e has it right. There were some really crap games out there for sub. Also, with WoW, for example, you still have the buy the expansion BEFORE you can play it and there is a sub plus a CS. So, many sub games are doing the same as F2P games.
It seems the only sub games that are surviving are the ones that were the only ones in town at the time WoW and EVE come to mind. People have so much time and money invested in them, they will not leave these games. That is why they are surviving.
That said, sub games, unless they offer cheaper subs, will not survive. I can get HULU sub for 10 USD per month and I can WATCH ANYTHING they have. With a game sub, all you are paying for is that game. I think more needs to be thrown in, like all games from the publisher, as an example, or people will look as subs as just a waste of money.
The biggest trend is Kickstarter games where they tell you nothing and people throw money down the rat hole because a certain person or persons are developing the game. Another trend is PAYING for ALPHA testing - even for a F2P game is really just a cash grab.
Comments
Here was OoM's kickstarter. Pretty abysmal.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/burningdog/origins-of-malu
Now they're billing it as a MOBA, vying for steam greenlight.
I really think Camelot Unchained could be doing better. I've no clue what's holding it up.
Also, you know, I anticipate EQN and a couple others upcoming to be "freemium", or "you can play for free but you get more if you sub", like EQ2 is now. I'm not sure where freemium fits in the conversation, but it's a pay model that should be discussed if we're talking about subs vs f2p.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
For me MMOs should either be B2P or Sub.. No F2P.
Buy to Play - Release the game and produce yearly expansions. Possibly a cosmetic shop at most with appearance options and items that add particle effects to weapons that do not have an effect..etc.
Subscribe - Free to download / no box cost. The sub cost covers all future content additions. Possibly an expansion every 2 years.
Free to Play - Die in a fire.
I much prefer ffxi's system. It has a flat sub fee, 1 doller more a month for each character you add, but 1 character does everything. Only need multiple characters to hold extra stuff.
Ther's no cash shop at all, well at least when I played it. Dunno about now though.
The payments were taken out monthly automatically, so never had to worry about it.
Plus the game was designed to be a huge timesink, which kept the playerbase around for years, instead of what we got now.
Also had no immersion breaker at all, since everything in game was earned ingame, loved that part the most.
unfortunatly SE has changed over the years. Now with ffxiv arr it is a monthly sub, but they added a cash shop as well for cosmetic stuff
Seaspite
Playing ESO on my X-Box
Who cares? WoW and FF14 are doing great, in fact FF14 is doing so great that we are seeing more and more people register to the game since november 2014. Let the cry babies cry, less clowns to worry about in both great P2P MMO's
Want quality MMO?, you got to P2P, won't get quality in a F2P/P2W garbage.
Come on now DMKano, this couldn't be more of a garbage statement. Yes, we know you're a big F2p advocate, but as much as I can respect a lot of what you say on these boards, this is just plain garbage. Entitled sub players, really? Way to spin it.
Obviously we can't put numbers up on which group has more of an entitled attitude. Experience alone in games puts the perception alone on it. After having been gaming MMO's for around 16 years, I never see that "I pay 15 dollars argument" from sub players. I always see these arguments from people that want sub games to be F2P. In my honest opinion and from all these years of gaming, I would say most of the people that believe in subs, know that we are paying for a service that the developers completely deserve. So many people just want everything for free now. I really doubt you are part of the group that thinks that developers should get nothing and everything should be free, but a large portion of the group you are defending thinks exactly that. Look at your beloved AA, this F2P group screamed and ran from this game when real dollar values were attached to anything.
Entitled sub players...
Have a good day folks!
Part I don't get people they want f2p to go away, but they did a nice number on wildstar to make it look like sub model coming back, with all the updates and content they had for a new open mmo, as little amount new people will not even try it or not worth there $15 to keep a sub model alive, when wildstar did all it can what sub model should of done.
But at the end people are killing some sub model as they keep going back to bigger game with there sub money, I am sure that will help sub model but is not, when everyone in 1 game not spending it around.
To be honest doesn't the sub model actually reflect the quality of the game, it is just how the devs get their money from the players.
While it is strue that there are far more cheap crap games as F2P or freemium a great game will earn it's money with any of the usual payment methods.
ESO have a sub, GW2 doesn't and both are quality games (even if you dislike one or the other for the gameplay that doesn't change the fact that they are well made).
TERA, LOTRO and Rift all have the F2P model now, nothing wrong with them.
I myself prefer P2P & B2P though, in P2P they dev get a steady income to (at least in theory) give us constant quality updates while B2P is enough to just sell skins. extra character slots and similar none game breakers.
With F2P and Freemium (I don't consider them the same, Freemium wants to be both P2P and F2P at the same time) they need people to buy a lot of stuff which means the stuff people have can all be bought in the itemshop, which in my meaning takes away a lot of the point of the game and makes the economy broken.
But even Freemium can't kill off a great game.
I have nothing against Subs, ive played most sub games going back to when Anarchy Online released.
Im prefering F2P games atm though, because ive found that, for me, if im paying a sub, i keep feeling obligated to log in every day, and stick to a single game so im not wasting money. I end up buring myself out. Im also pretty well done with the traditional themepark, Wildstar helped me realize that.
In the games im playing currently, Marvel Heroes and Warframe (granted not true MMOs), i only pay for things that have permanence within the game, classes, character slots, inventory space, ect. I limit how much I spend to $15 or less a month, if I spend anything. I can take breaks whenever I want and not feel like im losing anything, and I can bounce between a few games. I dont operate under the impression that because its a F2P game I should get everything for free.
This is what works for me, your milage, obviously will vary.
If they feel they are forced to play,then it obviously is not offering any FUN value because at 50 cents a day,i would hardly call that being forced,that would be a VERY sad argument.
Our internet costs far exceed that,so it would be like saying we should not pay for internet because we feel like we are being forced to use it all the time.Mt internet costs me 89 bucks a month that is what 6x any game sub fee and the internet alone by itself offers nothing more than a connection status,games offer a million x more value.
My stand on the issue is do away with cheap free gaming,i want to weed out all those crap games,the market is flooded with that junk,i rather see even just 5 games in total than all that other stuff i would not pay to play.
There is actually ONE reason and one only for allowing junk free games and is to allow a platform so that new developers can ply their trade,i mean they need feedback and to actually put their game out there to learn,so from that point it is ok.However as it is now,those low end developers are not trying to improve or take feedback as they claim,they are simply trying to make profit from whatever budget they can afford,it is NOT about QUALITY gaming for them,just a business.
Now there are some Indie guys not making any money at all,basically on life support,for them there is some passion no doubt but for many of these it is all about profiting from little value.Example the Gorgon lead is passionate,he loves his game and ideas however it would be a far cry to say his game is of the same quality as sub based games because it is not and neither are ANY of the cash shop games out there.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Players have been telling this to FunCom for years.
P2P defenders are so clueless, it's not even funny.
Why do you think I can't P2W in <insert favorite MMO here>?
There are TONS of gold selling websites
They also sell developed characters with all the soul/character bound gear you can get.
With maximum enchants and buckets of gold.
Beating you would come down to few thousand dollars and pressing F1. (Depending on how popular the game is)
Not to mention that some of you are clueless jerks who just run their mouth when they have nothing better to do. Going lengths at saying that Gw2's cash shop is P2W. Yeah right ....
P.S: It's not even few thousand dollars. Back in the day in Lineage 2 I was buying boss jewelry from eBay for couple bucks. That was an year or so before I joined an alliance that could actually pull the grandbosses, which would drop just 1-3 jewels for hundreds of players participating in the raid. Lineage 2 was a sub game at the time, and i was a kid with lots of free time and mom and dad's credit cards at my disposal. Yeah, you just have to suck it up because I was able to pull out a 12vs2 and win. Paying the regular 15$/mo. fee, of course, like everyone else
Overly geared paladins were quite the big deal.
Same thing was happening in WoW. I had a friend who was leveling toons to lvl 60 in a week and selling the said toon. That's how he made all his income. He sold Diablo 2 rare items who he farmed with a bot.
You just have to beat it in your thick skulls. There is always a way to P2W. Whether it is against the EULA or not, is of no concern. Who reads those EULAs anyway, right? If you have deep pockets and passion to be the best, there is always a way.
In the end quality trumps business model. If the game has quality, it will earn money, regardless of business model.
I personally would love it if all games could be B2P, latest examples being TSW, Gw2 and The Crew. Everything outside this business model is a cash grab cover up IMO. Subs are a lie. F2P is not really F2P. Freemium is neither free neither premium.
Subscription is a lie. The updates are not continuous. Not all content content comes with the subscription (E.g. you have to purchase an expack), server housing is really not that expensive nowadays, neither is managing. And in no way it stops the P2W crowd.
What it does is keep players away, because lets face it, not many want to pay a box and a sub fee to find out that they've been scammed.
Subscription does not equal quality either (E.g. DFUW, and we all saw TESO's launch)
Game studios can survive on box sells alone. And survive well. Even with low populations.
I hope this is explanation enough for you. Modern day subscriptions are plain and simple cash grab.
Idk if F2P/Freemium is the future, but subscription based anything is history.
P.S: League of Legends probably has more expenses on servers than WoW. It can be played with 0$ investment. And it will still earn money. Hell, even Hearthstone probably requires just about the same server power that WoW requires to host all those players.
Leon1e has it right. There were some really crap games out there for sub. Also, with WoW, for example, you still have the buy the expansion BEFORE you can play it and there is a sub plus a CS. So, many sub games are doing the same as F2P games.
It seems the only sub games that are surviving are the ones that were the only ones in town at the time WoW and EVE come to mind. People have so much time and money invested in them, they will not leave these games. That is why they are surviving.
That said, sub games, unless they offer cheaper subs, will not survive. I can get HULU sub for 10 USD per month and I can WATCH ANYTHING they have. With a game sub, all you are paying for is that game. I think more needs to be thrown in, like all games from the publisher, as an example, or people will look as subs as just a waste of money.
The biggest trend is Kickstarter games where they tell you nothing and people throw money down the rat hole because a certain person or persons are developing the game. Another trend is PAYING for ALPHA testing - even for a F2P game is really just a cash grab.