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I've seen through WoD and I'm no longer impressed

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  • PpiperPpiper Member RarePosts: 1,033
    Originally posted by Amjoco

    Well OP, I'm glad they installed the menegerie and fishing shack because I never use to do them. The yellow "i" was bothering me so I thought I would take a while to clear it out. After all these years of not playing the pet battles I'm kicking myself. It is very fun and challenging with the pet tamers as opponents. 

    As far as the rest of the expansion, including the garrison (which is a free bonus full of fun content) I have found this to be the best expansion yet.

    you just wrote my feelings perfectly. Just started pet battles yesterday and having a blast doing so. As for fishing, albeit laborious, having that Nat Pagel carrot has turned me into his Best Friend. In fact, I have never been so involved with WoW since Beta. 

  • Tasslehoff35Tasslehoff35 Member UncommonPosts: 962
    Originally posted by mrbungle419

    Someone asked for an explanation as to why this game is no longer an RPG and is instead a co-op, or somethng similar.

    Traditionally, RPGs put players into a world where exploration, choices, and in multiplayer rpgs, discussion is how a player progressed.  For example, in Vanilla, a dungeon like Sunken Temple had a few secrets to it.  The altars, the fact that all dragonkin should be killed prior to fighting eranikus, and even the layout of the zone had to be figured out through playing the game.  Quest text didn't always give obvious directions for the quests.  Attunements didn't always have an obvious explanation on aquisition.  Basically, in Vanilla a player either had to explore, make choices, or discuss with other players on how to accomplish goals.  Hmm no secrets in WoD dungeons?  Thats weird how about the Followers like Crowman and LEEROY?  I believe that would fall right into line with what you say "traditionally qualifies as RPG".  

    Like any RPG, a player could just use a cheat guide to get around this, but for many dedicated RPG players that was never an option.  Since Vanilla, every expansion has reduced these classic RPG features.  No more does a player need to explore, quests are indicated on the map for you, kill targets for quests can be seen with a hover over, ground spawns can be seen sparkling from 100 meters away, quests are grouped together for maximun efficiency for each hub.  Choices continue to be removed and punishments from bad choices have been nerfed to the point where dying generally costs 1-2 mins of time and a small amount of gold.  There is no real danger outside of instances because dying means nothing.  In a raid you may run into a lot of danger, but death only costs a small amount of time. In WoD there are a ton of quest off the path, you have bonus quest, you have treasures and Rares, as for death well that would be an example for every MMO out today...so yep WoW still standing tall as an MMORPG as two rounds. 

    The game has removed everything that I look for in an RPG.  Players are hardly even playing a character in game anymore, most players have several characters and classes, some classes can perform 2 roles with the click of a button, gear is just thrown out to every player at every turn.  The game is just not at all what I would even consider an RPG outside of it having classes and races.  Heck, CoD has classes and the same minimal amount of choice surrounding them.  This game is only more in depth than a game like CoD due to the quests, and because the quests are so silly and uninteresting, it is difficult for me to even want to follow the story line anymore. Please see the RED...your opinion by no means equals facts....

    I could probably write about a dozen more RPG features that are no longer around, or are just ignored because Blizz has given new systems that encourage solo play, or that at least encourage antisocial behavior, but there's no point.  I long for a real PvE MMORPG that promotes the old RPG elements of a game.  Players today complain about RNG at every turn, yet RPGs have always, since the beginning, been based on randomness.  I don't actually blame Blizz for their choices to go this route.  They have no incentive to make an interesting game anymore because players prefer the instant gratification. This is based on how YOU play.  Every I TURN ON WOW I am playing with OTHER PEOPLE, I very rarely EVER play SOLO.  If people CHOOSE to play WoW SOLO that is THEIR ISSUE NOT the games.  

    I came back for WoD because I heard that it was a throwback to the old school, yet, imo, the game is in the worst state it has ever been for the things I like in video games and RPGs in general.  The only thing I would be interested in would be Mythic Raids and RBGs, but I couldn't even get myself to play the game long enough for these things to be activated, nor would I feel good about supporting a game that only provides 2 interesting things for me to partake in. I doubt you even got into a LFR let alone Mysthic raids.  

    But you attempted to say why WoW is not an RPG well you failed in the attempted.  

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 9,779
    I hated when they started removing things like arrows and soul stones, rpg elements.
  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Member UncommonPosts: 1,592

    I liked the garrisons. I liked the quest storyline. I liked revisiting Draenor/Outland. What absolutely killed the expansion for me though is the horrid abomination that is the expansion's itemization.

    • Crafted items have randomized stats. Crafted items that use mats that are time locked. Crafted items that cost more time locked crafting items if you want to do another random reroll to get the stats you want.
    • Remember jewelcrafting? Apparently Blizzard doesn't, as you get a random socket on gear occassionally. Crafted gear doesn't have any. I haven't seen any raid drops that have any, either.
    • Remember when enchanting was useful? Like socketing jewels, enchanting seems to be an afterthought, as only a few item types have enchants.
    • The armor designs, from the starter greens to the raid drops, are atrocious. I'm not sure where Blizzard's graphic talent went, but apparently they're too busy working on trailers and cutscenes to design any decent armor. Defender Illona, one of your bodyguard followers, has great looking armor....from a few expansions ago.
    The above is why my account is currently unsubbed, though I do have a few days left.

    <3

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    its a symptom of blizzard failure to fix a broken progression system where runaway power progression makes balancing impossible. In their pathetic to find a cheap solution they have reduced game complexity in an already simplified system (gems etc)

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • PepeqPepeq Member UncommonPosts: 1,977
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Pepeq
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Seeing the quote in the previous post, I found another part of the OP to comment...

    Originally posted by mark2123

    When I think back to when WoW came out, it took an age to get to the level cap and that game costs the same as the expansions do now. 

    Ages? I bought the game at its release November 23, 2004, beginning January 2005 I was farming the max level dungeons to get ready for raiding.

    There was a whole game of things to do, level 1-60; lots and lots of zones and a wide variety of stuff.

    There's a metric ton more things to do in WoW nowadays than there was in 2004 at release.

    Nostalgia often blurrs the reality.

    That is deceptive... because you see, in today's WoW, you are told what to do whereas in vanilla WoW, you are not.

    Example:  Grinding rep with the Bloodsail Buccaneers was not as easy nor was it an achievement back then.  You had to just discover it on your own.  

    So you see, there were many things to do in vanilla WoW that were later turned into achievements in current WoW.  Why?  Because players seemed to have fun creating their own fun.  Sort of hard to do the same thing today since EVERYTHING is an achievement.  You have a laundry list to follow built right into the game with a very high success rate for limited time of effort.  Back in the day, you were considered nuts to do some of these things because there was no reward for doing so other than your own sick pleasure.

    There are many more examples that one can find... modern WoW just makes it easier to do things... it does not necessarily give you more things to do.  There is a big difference between advertising every little detail about everything one can do in game and merely tossing them into the world and saying, "explore!"

    That's the real difference between vanilla WoW and modern WoW.  Has nothing to do with nostalgia, has everything to do with game design.

    So basically, you are saying that back in Vanilla, there was much less to do but it was made harder to find, and also that most of it was completely pointless, while nowadays, there's much more to do even if easier to find, and there's more things to do that actually make sense.

    Thanks for proving me right.

    I never said that, not ONCE.  I said that there was a lot of things to do in vanilla WoW, only it wasn't advertised to you.  And yes, it was harder and took longer and was pointless other than for your own sick enjoyment of doing it.  Ever wonder how the achievement Insane in the Membrane came about?  Players came up with it because they were actually grinding rep with pointless factions just to see if they could do it and to see if there was something they would get for doing it.  Back in the day.  Blizzard didn't expect players to grind these factions but realized a cult of players within the game actually did.  Now they bastardized it to death from it's original inception, but IF you actually did it (before it was even an achievement), it was quite a feat to do.

     

    I will spell it out for you this time... in modern WoW, you KNOW that there are things to do because there is a list of achievements associated with it.  Whether you know how to do it or not is not the point.  The point is, YOU did not come up with the idea to do them, BLIZZARD laid out breadcrumbs for you to lure you into doing it.  There was a lot to do in vanilla WoW... far more than what was identified on the outside of the box when you bought it.  It was player generated ideas that became the achievement system of today.  It was not even Blizzard's intention that players do such things, they didn't even know players would want to.  So to suggest that there is MORE to do in modern WoW compared to vanilla WoW is a fallacy.  Just because you have pages of achievements to do doesn't mean all of those things couldn't have been done without said laundry list... however, you would assume that there is less to do because said list wasn't given to you.

     

    Modern WoW is easier, no doubt about it, more stuff to do, not likely.  Just like phasing makes the world seem more populated than it is, the achievement system makes it seem like there is more things to do... it's all an illusion.

  • Tasslehoff35Tasslehoff35 Member UncommonPosts: 962
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    its a symptom of blizzard failure to fix a broken progression system where runaway power progression makes balancing impossible. In their pathetic to find a cheap solution they have reduced game complexity in an already simplified system (gems etc)

    Hmm you dont even play the game but pretend to act like you know what your talking about...Boy they must have hurt you pretty bad to have this much hate where you need to spam every thread about a VIDEO GAME YOU DONT PLAY and cannot move on with your life....

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001

    i said Blue gear, not blue raid gear, read again son.

    'if you went into a bg in raid gear you are an idiot.'  thats Blizzard's new WOD gear change for PVE/PVP balancing system. I know that and I don't play WOD, you play WOD and you don't? 

    BTW i'm not 'clueless', i've probably got more mmoRPG hours under my belt than you have I would bet and I design software in my profession - all meaningless ofc in this forum, but you are obsessed with personal facts to prove your points so there you go.  People are entities to opinions you do not like and the posts that you cant handle are not all lies lies lies. 

    I will say it again, WOW's excessive power curve fucks up its own balancing constantly, its fundamentally flawed when you have to reduce choice and apply a squish (that's known as a fudge btw)

     

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,048
    Originally posted by Pepeq
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Pepeq
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Seeing the quote in the previous post, I found another part of the OP to comment...

    Originally posted by mark2123

    When I think back to when WoW came out, it took an age to get to the level cap and that game costs the same as the expansions do now. 

    Ages? I bought the game at its release November 23, 2004, beginning January 2005 I was farming the max level dungeons to get ready for raiding.

    There was a whole game of things to do, level 1-60; lots and lots of zones and a wide variety of stuff.

    There's a metric ton more things to do in WoW nowadays than there was in 2004 at release.

    Nostalgia often blurrs the reality.

    That is deceptive... because you see, in today's WoW, you are told what to do whereas in vanilla WoW, you are not.

    Example:  Grinding rep with the Bloodsail Buccaneers was not as easy nor was it an achievement back then.  You had to just discover it on your own.  

    So you see, there were many things to do in vanilla WoW that were later turned into achievements in current WoW.  Why?  Because players seemed to have fun creating their own fun.  Sort of hard to do the same thing today since EVERYTHING is an achievement.  You have a laundry list to follow built right into the game with a very high success rate for limited time of effort.  Back in the day, you were considered nuts to do some of these things because there was no reward for doing so other than your own sick pleasure.

    There are many more examples that one can find... modern WoW just makes it easier to do things... it does not necessarily give you more things to do.  There is a big difference between advertising every little detail about everything one can do in game and merely tossing them into the world and saying, "explore!"

    That's the real difference between vanilla WoW and modern WoW.  Has nothing to do with nostalgia, has everything to do with game design.

    So basically, you are saying that back in Vanilla, there was much less to do but it was made harder to find, and also that most of it was completely pointless, while nowadays, there's much more to do even if easier to find, and there's more things to do that actually make sense.

    Thanks for proving me right.

    I never said that, not ONCE.

    Actually you did twice now.

     I said that there was a lot of things to do in vanilla WoW, only it wasn't advertised to you.  And yes, it was harder and took longer and was pointless other than for your own sick enjoyment of doing it.  Ever wonder how the achievement Insane in the Membrane came about?  Players came up with it because they were actually grinding rep with pointless factions just to see if they could do it and to see if there was something they would get for doing it.  Back in the day.  Blizzard didn't expect players to grind these factions but realized a cult of players within the game actually did.  Now they bastardized it to death from it's original inception, but IF you actually did it (before it was even an achievement), it was quite a feat to do.

     

    I will spell it out for you this time... in modern WoW, you KNOW that there are things to do because there is a list of achievements associated with it.  Whether you know how to do it or not is not the point.  The point is, YOU did not come up with the idea to do them, BLIZZARD laid out breadcrumbs for you to lure you into doing it.  There was a lot to do in vanilla WoW... far more than what was identified on the outside of the box when you bought it.  It was player generated ideas that became the achievement system of today.  It was not even Blizzard's intention that players do such things, they didn't even know players would want to.  So to suggest that there is MORE to do in modern WoW compared to vanilla WoW is a fallacy.  Just because you have pages of achievements to do doesn't mean all of those things couldn't have been done without said laundry list... however, you would assume that there is less to do because said list wasn't given to you.

     

    Modern WoW is easier, no doubt about it, more stuff to do, not likely.  Just like phasing makes the world seem more populated than it is, the achievement system makes it seem like there is more things to do... it's all an illusion.

    More things to do without any doubt. Tell me, what was there to do in "vanilla" at max level beside dungeons and raids? Nothing. Now (and even before since Burning Crusade), you have viable alternatives, be it with PvP, crafting or garrisons.

    To suggest that there's more to do in modern WoW than in 2004 WoW is not fallacy. It's fact. Hard, undeniable facts. That you don't like it doesn't make it less a fact.

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,048
    Originally posted by Bladestrom

    i said Blue gear, not blue raid gear, read again son.

    'if you went into a bg in raid gear you are an idiot.'  thats Blizzard's new WOD gear change for PVE/PVP balancing system. I know that and I don't play WOD, you play WOD and you don't? 

    BTW i'm not 'clueless', i've probably got more mmoRPG hours under my belt than you have I would bet and I design software in my profession - all meaningless ofc in this forum, but you are obsessed with personal facts to prove your points so there you go.  People are entities to opinions you do not like and the posts that you cant handle are not all lies lies lies. 

    I will say it again, WOW's excessive power curve fucks up its own balancing constantly, its fundamentally flawed when you have to reduce choice and apply a squish (that's known as a fudge btw)

     

    Oh yeah, you design software... please tell us, how many MMORPGs did you design?

    I'm also software engineer. I design digital signage software and real time video effects. That actually makes me aware that designing something as complex as a MMORPG isn't a kid's game, and isn't just a matter of "designing software".

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • svandysvandy Member UncommonPosts: 277
    For some reason I'll never understand I did have hope that WoD would revive WoW for me. I enjoyed leveling to an extend and the garrison was fun at first, but it's true that after a while you start to see through the facade and realize just how simple the game really is. There is nothing wrong with that, if you like simple then WoW is for you, but I like deeper gameplay or at least if it's not deep and complex, I prefer that the combat is fun (WoW's isn't for me)

    Please visit my youtube channel for some H1Z1/DayZ casual roleplay videos!


    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrQoK5VZlwBBzpsksmXtjMQ

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,048
    Originally posted by svandy
    For some reason I'll never understand I did have hope that WoD would revive WoW for me. I enjoyed leveling to an extend and the garrison was fun at first, but it's true that after a while you start to see through the facade and realize just how simple the game really is. There is nothing wrong with that, if you like simple then WoW is for you, but I like deeper gameplay or at least if it's not deep and complex, I prefer that the combat is fun (WoW's isn't for me)

    What are your raid achievements? Did you pass heroic at least?

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Originally posted by svandy
    For some reason I'll never understand I did have hope that WoD would revive WoW for me. I enjoyed leveling to an extend and the garrison was fun at first, but it's true that after a while you start to see through the facade and realize just how simple the game really is. There is nothing wrong with that, if you like simple then WoW is for you, but I like deeper gameplay or at least if it's not deep and complex, I prefer that the combat is fun (WoW's isn't for me)

    careful, they may ask for an achievement check before you can express an opinion.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • PepeqPepeq Member UncommonPosts: 1,977
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Pepeq
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Pepeq
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Seeing the quote in the previous post, I found another part of the OP to comment...

    Originally posted by mark2123

    When I think back to when WoW came out, it took an age to get to the level cap and that game costs the same as the expansions do now. 

    Ages? I bought the game at its release November 23, 2004, beginning January 2005 I was farming the max level dungeons to get ready for raiding.

    There was a whole game of things to do, level 1-60; lots and lots of zones and a wide variety of stuff.

    There's a metric ton more things to do in WoW nowadays than there was in 2004 at release.

    Nostalgia often blurrs the reality.

    That is deceptive... because you see, in today's WoW, you are told what to do whereas in vanilla WoW, you are not.

    Example:  Grinding rep with the Bloodsail Buccaneers was not as easy nor was it an achievement back then.  You had to just discover it on your own.  

    So you see, there were many things to do in vanilla WoW that were later turned into achievements in current WoW.  Why?  Because players seemed to have fun creating their own fun.  Sort of hard to do the same thing today since EVERYTHING is an achievement.  You have a laundry list to follow built right into the game with a very high success rate for limited time of effort.  Back in the day, you were considered nuts to do some of these things because there was no reward for doing so other than your own sick pleasure.

    There are many more examples that one can find... modern WoW just makes it easier to do things... it does not necessarily give you more things to do.  There is a big difference between advertising every little detail about everything one can do in game and merely tossing them into the world and saying, "explore!"

    That's the real difference between vanilla WoW and modern WoW.  Has nothing to do with nostalgia, has everything to do with game design.

    So basically, you are saying that back in Vanilla, there was much less to do but it was made harder to find, and also that most of it was completely pointless, while nowadays, there's much more to do even if easier to find, and there's more things to do that actually make sense.

    Thanks for proving me right.

    I never said that, not ONCE.

    Actually you did twice now.

     I said that there was a lot of things to do in vanilla WoW, only it wasn't advertised to you.  And yes, it was harder and took longer and was pointless other than for your own sick enjoyment of doing it.  Ever wonder how the achievement Insane in the Membrane came about?  Players came up with it because they were actually grinding rep with pointless factions just to see if they could do it and to see if there was something they would get for doing it.  Back in the day.  Blizzard didn't expect players to grind these factions but realized a cult of players within the game actually did.  Now they bastardized it to death from it's original inception, but IF you actually did it (before it was even an achievement), it was quite a feat to do.

     

    I will spell it out for you this time... in modern WoW, you KNOW that there are things to do because there is a list of achievements associated with it.  Whether you know how to do it or not is not the point.  The point is, YOU did not come up with the idea to do them, BLIZZARD laid out breadcrumbs for you to lure you into doing it.  There was a lot to do in vanilla WoW... far more than what was identified on the outside of the box when you bought it.  It was player generated ideas that became the achievement system of today.  It was not even Blizzard's intention that players do such things, they didn't even know players would want to.  So to suggest that there is MORE to do in modern WoW compared to vanilla WoW is a fallacy.  Just because you have pages of achievements to do doesn't mean all of those things couldn't have been done without said laundry list... however, you would assume that there is less to do because said list wasn't given to you.

     

    Modern WoW is easier, no doubt about it, more stuff to do, not likely.  Just like phasing makes the world seem more populated than it is, the achievement system makes it seem like there is more things to do... it's all an illusion.

    More things to do without any doubt. Tell me, what was there to do in "vanilla" at max level beside dungeons and raids? Nothing. Now (and even before since Burning Crusade), you have viable alternatives, be it with PvP, crafting or garrisons.

    To suggest that there's more to do in modern WoW than in 2004 WoW is not fallacy. It's fact. Hard, undeniable facts. That you don't like it doesn't make it less a fact.

    Insane in the Membrane is PROOF that there is more than dungeons and raids to do in vanilla WoW.  The fact that you never recognized this proves that you have a narrow-minded view on just what games provide you with.

     

    Just for a moment, one moment, consider WoD being released with all the tools to build garrisons and the like BUT never advertised.  You the player would have to discover that you could potentially do this all on your own.  It wasn't part of the designers intention that players do this, players just figured it out all on their own.  There would be no achievements, no rewards, nothing to encourage you to do it.  You would just do it BECAUSE you could.  THAT my friend is what vanilla WoW offered you to do beyond dungeons and raids.  Not everyone did it, but it was there to do.  Today they do it because there is a reward for doing it... if there wasn't one, they wouldn't.  Doesn't mean it's not there for you to do in game.

     

    Stop literally adding up all the quests you can do in WoW from level 1-100 and start adding up all the quests you can do in WoD alone.  Compare that to the number of quests you could do in vanilla WoW.  Vanilla WoW wins by a landslide.  Add up the number of dungeons and raids unique to WoD and compare them to vanilla WoW.  And then BGs.  And then crafting items.  Etc.  Vanilla WoW wasn't this barren wasteland of drudgery that you make it out to be.  There were many things to do, they just weren't things that were anticipated by the developers as things players would find fun doing.  Players created their own fun... because the game provided the groundwork to allow them to do so.  So don't tell me modern WoW offers more things to do.  It doesn't.  It offers about the same number of things to do, relatively speaking.

     

     

  • svandysvandy Member UncommonPosts: 277
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Originally posted by svandy
    For some reason I'll never understand I did have hope that WoD would revive WoW for me. I enjoyed leveling to an extend and the garrison was fun at first, but it's true that after a while you start to see through the facade and realize just how simple the game really is. There is nothing wrong with that, if you like simple then WoW is for you, but I like deeper gameplay or at least if it's not deep and complex, I prefer that the combat is fun (WoW's isn't for me)

    careful, they may ask for an achievement check before you can express an opinion.

    I just don't acknowledge them. If they are happy circle jerking over achievements until the end of time, far be it from me to get in the way. Although your comment is great because it shows just how bad the WoW community has gotten. Gear Score, Achievement checks, hard modes, blah blah blah. Always some way for you to lord your "status," over someone else and shout down people who aren't having fun, because they didn't endure the not fun parts long enough to... grind the not fun parts to get achievements? I don't even know.

    I hoped garrisons would be cool enough to keep me, but it just wasnt meant to be. I'm not complaining though, I got a good couple weeks out of the game so it wasn't money lost.

    Please visit my youtube channel for some H1Z1/DayZ casual roleplay videos!


    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrQoK5VZlwBBzpsksmXtjMQ

  • ShadoedShadoed Member UncommonPosts: 1,459
    Originally posted by svandy
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Originally posted by svandy
    For some reason I'll never understand I did have hope that WoD would revive WoW for me. I enjoyed leveling to an extend and the garrison was fun at first, but it's true that after a while you start to see through the facade and realize just how simple the game really is. There is nothing wrong with that, if you like simple then WoW is for you, but I like deeper gameplay or at least if it's not deep and complex, I prefer that the combat is fun (WoW's isn't for me)

    careful, they may ask for an achievement check before you can express an opinion.

    I just don't acknowledge them. If they are happy circle jerking over achievements until the end of time, far be it from me to get in the way. Although your comment is great because it shows just how bad the WoW community has gotten. Gear Score, Achievement checks, hard modes, blah blah blah. Always some way for you to lord your "status," over someone else and shout down people who aren't having fun, because they didn't endure the not fun parts long enough to... grind the not fun parts to get achievements? I don't even know.

    I hoped garrisons would be cool enough to keep me, but it just wasnt meant to be. I'm not complaining though, I got a good couple weeks out of the game so it wasn't money lost.

    It isn't about 'lording status' or anything along those lines, it is just hard to take someone trying to state something as fact when they have not experienced it. Everyone is welcome to an opinion, but don't expect people to credit it if you have not actually played the content that you are stating an opinion on.

    It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Originally posted by Shadoed
    Originally posted by svandy
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Originally posted by svandy
    For some reason I'll never understand I did have hope that WoD would revive WoW for me. I enjoyed leveling to an extend and the garrison was fun at first, but it's true that after a while you start to see through the facade and realize just how simple the game really is. There is nothing wrong with that, if you like simple then WoW is for you, but I like deeper gameplay or at least if it's not deep and complex, I prefer that the combat is fun (WoW's isn't for me)

    careful, they may ask for an achievement check before you can express an opinion.

    I just don't acknowledge them. If they are happy circle jerking over achievements until the end of time, far be it from me to get in the way. Although your comment is great because it shows just how bad the WoW community has gotten. Gear Score, Achievement checks, hard modes, blah blah blah. Always some way for you to lord your "status," over someone else and shout down people who aren't having fun, because they didn't endure the not fun parts long enough to... grind the not fun parts to get achievements? I don't even know.

    I hoped garrisons would be cool enough to keep me, but it just wasnt meant to be. I'm not complaining though, I got a good couple weeks out of the game so it wasn't money lost.

    It isn't about 'lording status' or anything along those lines, it is just hard to take someone trying to state something as fact when they have not experienced it. Everyone is welcome to an opinion, but don't expect people to credit it if you have not actually played the content that you are stating an opinion on.

    I was stating an opinionabout what i considered to be a fact - the 'stating fact' thing was an excuse by some to pretend their foul abusive behaviour was justified - its got fuck all to do with the actual point.  Nowhere was any points refuted - you do not need to have to play WOD to know the balancing issues are still there (so its either a fact or not - what is it?)  this 'you haven't played it thing' is a childish defense by those who wont actually enter a debate, they are just interested in mudslinging.

    to make it simple for the children here - if you disagree with an opinion, say why - 'I disagree that the balancing issue is as bad as aver because...'

    Not, 'im not listening or going to enter this debate cause you haven't played the game.'

    And no i do not need to play WOD to tell you the power system is screwing up the balance, but prove me wrong - tell me its not a fact.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,993

    Most players have seen this issue for years now. Expansions rewrite content. They do not add to content. Vertical bloat is the main issue for themepark games. It is the PRIMARY reason why players quit these mmos. The content they have become used to vanishes. The game effectively shrinks because expansions are always smaller than the original game because no expansion has the budget and development time of the game at launch.

     

    It is what destroys all mmos with vertical progression. The game simply evolves into something completely different from when it launched. It alienates the vast majority of each game's original fans. Developers twist and morph their game to current market demands of gaming (NOT the genre itself). Blizzard is the master of this and has always copied rather than originate. It is their success with this strategy that helped drive development culture in this direction. I do not blame them entirely. I blame business which drives to pull in new players from anywhere instead of nurturing the actual hobbyist community supporting the product. 

     

    I am not sure what developers and players expect. This repeats itself through every single expansion. You now sit in a new city to queue for new dungeons for new tiers of gear. All older content is near meaningless and outside of end game progression. By installing an expansion you are adding a small amount of new content compared to what you are obliterating. It is a painfully flawed business practice by removing what players liked to do with completely untested content. 

     

    For those still not understanding why a completely different development platform (private funding, etc) is all the new rage it is because the industry itself is failing the consumer ... not the games themselves. One merely has to look into why games are developed and released as they are to understand the fundamental failing. A hobbyist is NOT a quarterly report on current current gaming trends. A hobbyist is someone who likes a particular hobby. If that hobby reshapes into something completely different by the very developer who made it then that company loses a customer. 

     

    Other genres are far less forgiving for this. WotC changed D&D with 4.0 into a different genre and lost ALL their core audience. They are scrambling now to regain what they lost. They may never succeed. Imagine EVE seeing their player base level off years back and decided to change the game into a themepark to tap into a larger pool of players? This could easily have happened. SWG tried to do it and failed. Turbine jumped on the themepark bandwagon and lost their core audience long ago and now are nothing more than a "Wow alternative" instead of an innovator. Many others have tried and still will try. Those developers lost touch with their core audience. 

     

    Most other hobbies would never in a million years change their product entirely trying to attract a wider audience at the expense of their core audience but mmo developers do this often. It is time for the industry to realize mmos are not so easily integrated into their mass produced product lines dependent upon turn over. Wake ... the ... fuck ... up.

    You stay sassy!

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    this ^^ is a first class assessment of the failings in evidence today :)

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • svandysvandy Member UncommonPosts: 277
    Originally posted by Shadoed
    It isn't about 'lording status' or anything along those lines, it is just hard to take someone trying to state something as fact when they have not experienced it. Everyone is welcome to an opinion, but don't expect people to credit it if you have not actually played the content that you are stating an opinion on.

    Haven't I played it though? How are raids so drastically different from Heroics or normal 5 mans beyond amount o fplayers and gear score required? Sure, mechanics will be different, but even heroics all have "mechanics," now which typically boil down to dont stand in the fire/magic/poison/whatever, and I can't imagine raids are so drastically different that it would change my opinion of the games content. The core game doesn't appeal to me, I went back to try garrisons, it ended up being a lame duck. I am totally justified in an opinion, and if you choose to not listen to it because you feel I havent experienced enough of it, your loss.

    You have to face the fact that at the end of the day there are only two possibilities: Blizzard knowingly forces players to play through irrelevant and boring content before being able to access anything meaningful, OR the game is the same through and through, just requiring better gear to accomplish. This has always been the problem with MMOs, and WoW is the grand-daddy of MMOs suffering from it. They maintain a huge population based on people just not wanting to change MMOs, or the aforementioned social status they achieved and the desire to lord it over others. WoW isnt about adventuring with friends, it's about having better gear than them.

    Also I still don't understand how people consider achievements content.

    Please visit my youtube channel for some H1Z1/DayZ casual roleplay videos!


    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrQoK5VZlwBBzpsksmXtjMQ

  • Vladric_HellsingerVladric_Hellsinger Member Posts: 27
    It's still the same grind to end game and get into raids for the endless gear treadmill as it always was. I'm very sick and bored of this mmo game type that has made the genre so stale. 
  • ShadoedShadoed Member UncommonPosts: 1,459
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Originally posted by Shadoed
     

    It isn't about 'lording status' or anything along those lines, it is just hard to take someone trying to state something as fact when they have not experienced it. Everyone is welcome to an opinion, but don't expect people to credit it if you have not actually played the content that you are stating an opinion on.

    I was stating an opinionabout what i considered to be a fact - the 'stating fact' thing was an excuse by some to pretend their foul abusive behaviour was justified - its got fuck all to do with the actual point.  Nowhere was any points refuted - you do not need to have to play WOD to know the balancing issues are still there (so its either a fact or not - what is it?)  this 'you haven't played it thing' is a childish defense by those who wont actually enter a debate, they are just interested in mudslinging.

    to make it simple for the children here - if you disagree with an opinion, say why - 'I disagree that the balancing issue is as bad as aver because...'

    Not, 'im not listening or going to enter this debate cause you haven't played the game.'

    And no i do not need to play WOD to tell you the power system is screwing up the balance, but prove me wrong - tell me its not a fact.

    Not even going to get in to the irony of someone using foul language to try and make a point and then calling others 'children' in the same post.

    On the other point, i am not going to enter a debate about overall balance in the current expansion as it is only just gaining momentum and of course is not all the way there yet, but even with that said, you will never get a 100% balance in any MMO, even this one and anyone with any development experience would know that. Not only do you have the opinions of hundreds of thousands of people to consider, you also have to ensure that whatever changes you make also balance with every other directly affected variable that is in the game already and even if they managed to get the technical stuff right, they will never satiate all of the people playing who have their varied opinions.

    If it makes you feel better about yourself, then yes you are right that there is not 100% balance within the game, but then there never has been, so it is hardly a groud breaking revelation, but can you tell me how the current imbalances are affecting classes directly from experience?

    My point to you was that you are welcome to have your opinion, but if you have not played the content it holds less water to most than that of a person who has actually played the content and can offer a detailed reason as to why that imbalance effects them directly. You can kick, scream and swear all you like, it doesn't change that fact either.

    It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  • ShadoedShadoed Member UncommonPosts: 1,459
    Originally posted by svandy
    Originally posted by Shadoed
    It isn't about 'lording status' or anything along those lines, it is just hard to take someone trying to state something as fact when they have not experienced it. Everyone is welcome to an opinion, but don't expect people to credit it if you have not actually played the content that you are stating an opinion on.

    Haven't I played it though? How are raids so drastically different from Heroics or normal 5 mans beyond amount o fplayers and gear score required? Sure, mechanics will be different, but even heroics all have "mechanics," now which typically boil down to dont stand in the fire/magic/poison/whatever, and I can't imagine raids are so drastically different that it would change my opinion of the games content. The core game doesn't appeal to me, I went back to try garrisons, it ended up being a lame duck. I am totally justified in an opinion, and if you choose to not listen to it because you feel I havent experienced enough of it, your loss.

    You have to face the fact that at the end of the day there are only two possibilities: Blizzard knowingly forces players to play through irrelevant and boring content before being able to access anything meaningful, OR the game is the same through and through, just requiring better gear to accomplish. This has always been the problem with MMOs, and WoW is the grand-daddy of MMOs suffering from it. They maintain a huge population based on people just not wanting to change MMOs, or the aforementioned social status they achieved and the desire to lord it over others. WoW isnt about adventuring with friends, it's about having better gear than them.

    Also I still don't understand how people consider achievements content.

    Well, you have pinned your problem straight away in that post, you don't like the core game and if you read my post earlier in this thread then i make that point exactly. What exactly were you expecting from this expansion? WoW is WoW, that hasn't changed since day one launch and if you didn't like the core of the game at any point along the way then you are not going to get along with it now either, simple as that really.

    WoD was not a new game, it was an expansion of the existing core game, you can do all of the stuff you used to do with a few extra's added for flavour. Garrisons were not supposed to be a magic fix for anything, they were just something else new, like pet battles or archaeology and so on, they aren't and were never meant to be what the game is all about.

    Achievements are just as valid a content as anything else within the game, it offers something else to reach for, for some players, others will not bother, it is just another option, but no less valid than content others enjoy.

    It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  • mrbungle419mrbungle419 Member UncommonPosts: 47
    Originally posted by Tasslehoff35
    Originally posted by mrbungle419

    Someone asked for an explanation as to why this game is no longer an RPG and is instead a co-op, or somethng similar.

    Traditionally, RPGs put players into a world where exploration, choices, and in multiplayer rpgs, discussion is how a player progressed.  For example, in Vanilla, a dungeon like Sunken Temple had a few secrets to it.  The altars, the fact that all dragonkin should be killed prior to fighting eranikus, and even the layout of the zone had to be figured out through playing the game.  Quest text didn't always give obvious directions for the quests.  Attunements didn't always have an obvious explanation on aquisition.  Basically, in Vanilla a player either had to explore, make choices, or discuss with other players on how to accomplish goals.  Hmm no secrets in WoD dungeons?  Thats weird how about the Followers like Crowman and LEEROY?  I believe that would fall right into line with what you say "traditionally qualifies as RPG".  

    Like any RPG, a player could just use a cheat guide to get around this, but for many dedicated RPG players that was never an option.  Since Vanilla, every expansion has reduced these classic RPG features.  No more does a player need to explore, quests are indicated on the map for you, kill targets for quests can be seen with a hover over, ground spawns can be seen sparkling from 100 meters away, quests are grouped together for maximun efficiency for each hub.  Choices continue to be removed and punishments from bad choices have been nerfed to the point where dying generally costs 1-2 mins of time and a small amount of gold.  There is no real danger outside of instances because dying means nothing.  In a raid you may run into a lot of danger, but death only costs a small amount of time. In WoD there are a ton of quest off the path, you have bonus quest, you have treasures and Rares, as for death well that would be an example for every MMO out today...so yep WoW still standing tall as an MMORPG as two rounds. 

    The game has removed everything that I look for in an RPG.  Players are hardly even playing a character in game anymore, most players have several characters and classes, some classes can perform 2 roles with the click of a button, gear is just thrown out to every player at every turn.  The game is just not at all what I would even consider an RPG outside of it having classes and races.  Heck, CoD has classes and the same minimal amount of choice surrounding them.  This game is only more in depth than a game like CoD due to the quests, and because the quests are so silly and uninteresting, it is difficult for me to even want to follow the story line anymore. Please see the RED...your opinion by no means equals facts....

    I could probably write about a dozen more RPG features that are no longer around, or are just ignored because Blizz has given new systems that encourage solo play, or that at least encourage antisocial behavior, but there's no point.  I long for a real PvE MMORPG that promotes the old RPG elements of a game.  Players today complain about RNG at every turn, yet RPGs have always, since the beginning, been based on randomness.  I don't actually blame Blizz for their choices to go this route.  They have no incentive to make an interesting game anymore because players prefer the instant gratification. This is based on how YOU play.  Every I TURN ON WOW I am playing with OTHER PEOPLE, I very rarely EVER play SOLO.  If people CHOOSE to play WoW SOLO that is THEIR ISSUE NOT the games.  

    I came back for WoD because I heard that it was a throwback to the old school, yet, imo, the game is in the worst state it has ever been for the things I like in video games and RPGs in general.  The only thing I would be interested in would be Mythic Raids and RBGs, but I couldn't even get myself to play the game long enough for these things to be activated, nor would I feel good about supporting a game that only provides 2 interesting things for me to partake in. I doubt you even got into a LFR let alone Mysthic raids.  

    But you attempted to say why WoW is not an RPG well you failed in the attempted.  

    Please show when I used the term secret.  Your first reply just demonstrated your inability to comprehend.   Not my fault

    Your last point, of course I didn't get into LFR or Mythic raids for WoD because I quit before they were opened.  Mythic raids didn't even exist before WoD.  I had plenty of heroic 10 man kills in MoP, none in Cata because I hardly played in Cata, but I had a heroic 25 man Arthas kill, killed Illidan and Kael'thas, killed C'thun and 6 bosses in 40 man Naxx.  Good job acting like you are some of god when we both know you are brand new.

    Yes, players can choose to play with others, which is what I did, but the game certainly doesn't do anything to encourage it beyond raids and RBGs.  Again, reading comprehension might help you form a rational argument.  Claiming LFR or LFD is social would be no different than claiming that running around Org is a social part of the game.  Except LFR and LFD just throw loot at anyone with a subscription.  Loot for doing virtually nothing.  I healed LFRs in all PvP gear in MoP, basically afk for 25% of it, still got loot, still got boss kills.  There are youtube videos of people gearing all the way through max LFR gear without actually participating in their group.  AFK auto-attacking was the most they did, still were able to take part in killing the biggest lore characters in the WoW since the end of Cata.  Some RPG...

     

    Someone else brought up, "i think because i'm playing a role it is an RPG."  Using that logic, mario 1, CoD, Halo, etc are all RPGs.  If that is what people consider RPGs now, go ahead, but using the classic idea of RPGs, WoW is not an RPG.  It's not even an average game anymore.

  • mark2123mark2123 Member UncommonPosts: 450

    Hey, OP back again.  Crikey, this post I started has grown somewhat and in all sorts of directions. Interesting arguments being made.

    From my own perspective, I unsubbed WoW and uninstalled it a few days ago, because I couldn't see the point in the tedium of Garrison chores, the daily Apexis question and gear grind for raiding (I could skip Heroic Dungeons as my self-made gear got me past them without trying even one).  I always felt there was more in the other expacs than this one.

    I then bought Far Cry 4 because I've played and enjoyed Far Cry 3 and it had good reviews.  Any when I got going with it, I really couldn't believe I almost remained loyal to WoW and would perhaps still be rinsing and repeating the same old thing, whereas I think playing casually, I'll get 2-4 months on enjoyment out of Far Cry 4, doing all the missions, exploring, collecting, crafting and some online pvp.  By that time, I will have banked the same money as my WoW subs and would be ready to buy a new game AND if I want to, sell Far Cry 4 on Ebay.

    My point is that there is more to gaming than staying sucked into a game that over the years, have eroded originality and got lame and lazy - to entice players into their garrison every day means Blizzard could put mininal effort into their new world, which, let's face it, after the quests, there's little or no reason to go out there any more, unless you think wandering around for treasure that does nothing for your character any more, is interesting.

    I've been an MMO player, of theme parks and mostly WoW, for about 12 years now, and I've seen a decline in imagination and effort on the part of designers to lead me to believe that it was time for something else.

    I hope those who remain loyal to WoW get continued enjoyment, but I know I wouldn't - not with WoD anyhow.

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