In case you missed it, the words "WHY KOREA HAS AN ISSUE WITH DIABLO III" you quoted... is a link.
Whereas the basic concept of the "Free to Play" business model is not in and of itself gambling, many implemented features within that same business model are.
It is not an issue with all gaming. it is not actually an issue with the "Free to Play" business model in and of itself. It is again, the many implemented features we see used through that business model, of which are used to further exploit their customer base as gambling features. And yes, I did say to "further exploit," as there are other features which exploit their customers which are not gambling.
The "Free to Play" business model could in fact be a very win-win business model for everyone, companies and players. The companies however, still choose to exploit their player base in droves.
I apologize. I missed the link.
You are accusing F2P of using unique concepts, which are similar to gambling. I have just shown you that those same concepts were ACTUALLY found to be gambling in a P2P game... and the evidence that they are present in almost all online games, regardless of business model.
Please explain how this behavior is exploitive for one model, but not exploitive for another. Also explain why governments have felt it necessary to take action for what you are calling non exploitive... but not take action for what you are calling exploitive.
Bah, it happens and this thread is still off the wall in spurts as to how many posts being made.
Using gambling in MMORPGs is exploitative in any business model, with very few exceptions. What I meant by gambling not being an issue with all business models, is in reference to Subscription models that use only a Subscription model (no cash shop, etc). Basically the business model that our western audiences had back in the "Golden Age of MMORPGs."
Further on those lines, even the "Free to Play" business model CAN be a great business model if implemented properly, I just have not seen it done in any MMORPGs yet. I am not actually certain such has even actually been done, as I would actually need to be bothered to play game genres I have no inkling of a reason to play otherwise.
Well obviously you showed an example of a government taking action (to add to that, I know Europe also had a crackdown involving at least a few games in the "Free to Play" business model arena), and at the same time, we are still seeing the same exploitative practices being used throughout the "Free to Play" business model MMORPGs.
I am still under the impression that the so-called professionals simply do not know what they are doing, do not care so long as the money is rolling in, or do know and thus are complete scum. I however am seeing this entire "Dark Ages of MMORPGs" thing from the perspective of knowing concepts that are well beyond anything we will see. Sadly however, these companies do not even need such far reaching concepts, just recycle concepts currently used and of old and do it properly... and they still can not do that right.
Aaaah... frustration, frustration, frustration... and yet, at the same time... it is all the better for myself that the industry is as it is. And there does not appear to be any light ahead either, just more of the same crap with better graphics. Rewind to 2000 and remember what we thought we would see come 2015? Here we are coming to the beginning of 2015, and what are our expectations by 2030? Even our expectations have regressed.
Neither F2P nor P2P business models are gambling. Neither have anything to do with gambling. Diablo III was found to be gambling, because it (the game, not the business model) combined all three elements required to be gambling:
1. Consideration (Money in)
2. Chance
3. Prize (Money Out)
Commercial online gaming (regardless of model) commonly has the first two elements. If you pay for the game, pay for a sub, pay for a service, or put in any money, you meet element #1. Randomized drops from mobs or lockboxes meet element #2. The only portion missing is element #3, the ability to take money out. Once that is added, any commercial MMO(RPG) on the market would become gambling. There are types of MMO's (FPS and MOBA) that may not have random drops, and such do would not meet criteria #2. However, even many of these have added this as method to keep players playing.
What you have referred to as 'gambling elements' are in fact, games of chance. This is the foundation of most MMO(RPG)'s, regardless of model. This is what drives players to continue to play (and spend). This is the foundation of all current MMO(RPG)'s on the market today (aka the loot grind).
These 'exploitive' methods are commonly used in MMO's, most of which have been P2P until recently (when most of the remaining P2P games converted to F2P). The conversion from P2P to F2P did not stop the exploitation of their customer base, nor did the conversion late in their lifespan cause the exploitation that they had been doing for years.
If you would like an example of a game that is ACTUALLY gambling, you should look at Entropia Universe (formerly Project Entropia). This is ACTUAL gambling, and legally regulated as such (they are also regulated as a bank/financial institution).
Originally posted by lathaanthe problem is not "scamming" games, its players that are idiotic enough to think they get anything for free without consequences. we created this system. and the fittest survive.
hmm ... you can get a part of f2p games for free without consequences.
Don't believe me, go to marvel heroes, and play through all the story content with your first hero. Tell me if that is not free.
see - thats exactly what im talking about. you really think you get something for free in this world without some reaction. do you never ask yourself why anyone would give you even 1 second of a game for free? a hint: you stop thinking about consequences at the edge of your tiny horizon
Yes, i do. But only for ONE second.
The answer is simple. Whales. So there is some consequences to them ... but for me, i got a free part of the game with no consequence to me.
I also work in the industry and am privy to inside demographics, I have seen the actual numbers behind a certain Developer's all-in-one-pass & can tell you Free to Play is not the holy grail for the MMORPG industry. And that cross-platform games will be the only ones able to support quality F2P. Because fishing for whales is getting harder & harder. They have found that whales only bite once or twice and they are gone. They do not move on to other games with an open wallet.
Dolphin netting is the new term... but even if you cast a big enough net, it is just safer and better to become closed environment and charge a subscription. (Steady income vs random nettings = business model)
Understand, 18 million WoW refugees are getting older and have careers and disposable incomes now. The industry has taken notice to start ups/kickstarters that have people tossing them hundreds for a game they can't even play yet. That is all the proof any business man needs, to be sold on the viability of higher cost MMO on the way.
IE: If WoW cost $13/month, then chances are most of those players expect to pay more for their next game, they find worthy of playing for 5 years. What WoW player wouldn't pay $7 more per month for the next WoW?
And do you think those people who won't pay $20/month, even matter to future developers..? Only the ones still chasing whales..
Within 5 years, all the premium titles, will have a premium subscription associated with them. Free is not sustainable in the PC marketplace. Handheld/mobile/console apps is another story all together.
I am also in the industry... and disagree with your conclusion. There are different approaches to F2P, which make money from different customer bases. The eastern model is based on a broad playerbase, who pays very little individually (with some whales). The western model is based on a narrow playerbase, who pays more individually (with some whales). In the east, it is common to make less than a dollar (per month), whereas in the west it is common to make over ten dollars (per month). This is most commonly done through a subscription.
The approach that SOE is taking is to increase the amount of quality offerings, and to bundle them under one monthly sub. This will allow for some float between products, but no real loss of revenue, as long as they can keep the customer within their product base. They are also using crowdsourcing methods to increase the amount of content being generated, in an effort to avoid content depletion (and customer attrition).
You can see a similar approach from Nexon, and Perfect World. The consolidation of content under a few publishers allows for the offering of multiple products to the same customer, in an effort to maintain long term customer loyalty. The building of brands around F2P entertainment products is very similar to the creation of the major TV networks in the early 60's.
The 'interesting' part of all of this is that none of these companies are (now) chasing the WoW success story. These companies have all made the transition to the post WoW era, and are building sustainable gaming networks that are not reliant on a single game, or a breakout hit.
In the next 5 years you will see the steady growth of F2P networks, with sales offerings designed to keep customers within their network. There is no reason to move away from F2P (as it provides clear cost benefits), and in fact you will see it expand from PC to Consoles. Mobile will have a bit of backlash/re-adjustment as the market matures, then it will become more like the PC market (which has already gone through this).
Sorry, you are not privy to the #'s I am.
I have consulted for the 3 largest MMO companies in the last 10 years. Just finished my contract 5 days ago with a AAA associated game release. So I am free to speak openly, albeit under a NDA protecting actual data.
Let me pick your rebuttal apart : "The approach SOE is taking to increase the amount of quality offerings, and to bundle them under one monthly sub.. "
Bundled games typically have less quality... & the public is aware of this.
Bundling ONLY offers more value... to those who typically play more than one MMO. Most MMORPG gamers do not. They have indicated that they would rather play a single great game for 5 years, then 2 mediocre games over 4. That is what the public wants and what studies have shown. These people want to feel apart of something big and don't want to miss out on server events and camaraderie, etc. There are some, who are not in a subscription model who play many games... those are excluded. We are talking about paying customers.
The vast majority of people who bounce between games, do so because they are free...
Under a all-in-one style of subscription, very few people cross game. Sure they might log in, create a char and dabble to break their monotony. But these people are not spiritually invested in that game, or their characters. They are just a bread basket.
To the new, or the frugal.. a bundled package seems like a great buy. But the "float" between those individuals is not business added value to any company. It is more of a marketing thing, to keep older games afloat, than actual monetized business plan. People typically know what they want, they don't need a menu for what roleplaying game they want to play that day.
How did you jump from a "all-in-one subscription", to a trove of free games...? Then suggest that bundling them offers "a clear cost benefit"... yes, for the developer, not the person buying/using the product, or playing them for free. As the customer has to wade threw massive bureaucracy for customer support tickets for their games/product, etc. Or a developer that is trying to run & manage 3 games, instead of one.
Also, pay for all... & free for all.. are not the same.
Additionally, kickstarters already proven you wrong, that people are passionate about the roleplaying games and cash grab MMOs are a fishing in crowded waters. That bundling is only a value-add, not a business solution. Fact is, many MMORPG players are not looking for a "value". They have grown up now and are looking for quality experience.
So you will see in the next 5 years the FREE TO PLAY model for MMORPG dwindle, because all the whales will have been harpooned out of the water. Asian demographics are a whole other story and their incessant marketing and hype will never end... but then again, none of those are worthy of subscription model anyways. They are basically throw away MMOs.
Originally posted by lathaanthe problem is not "scamming" games, its players that are idiotic enough to think they get anything for free without consequences. we created this system. and the fittest survive.
hmm ... you can get a part of f2p games for free without consequences.
Don't believe me, go to marvel heroes, and play through all the story content with your first hero. Tell me if that is not free.
see - thats exactly what im talking about. you really think you get something for free in this world without some reaction. do you never ask yourself why anyone would give you even 1 second of a game for free? a hint: you stop thinking about consequences at the edge of your tiny horizon
Yes, i do. But only for ONE second.
The answer is simple. Whales. So there is some consequences to them ... but for me, i got a free part of the game with no consequence to me.
Tell me .. isn't that accurate?
Yes, it is accurate for you... who have claimed you play until you are asked to pay. Then you claim to move on to the next free game.... but you really have not stated how you feel about not achieving, or advancing within those games. Or how much you wanted to get past that paywall and deeper into said game... You have only stated that it doesn't matter to you, uno? to leave the game you've been playing for months, for another free one. No burning desire to see what is on the other side of the paywall..?
It is all lollypops from you....
You kid with this community too much. Do you really want us to believe you've spent 10 years here, 10k posts and you don't spend any money on any games.. and that you don't ever want to spend money on games and would love nothing more than to contually play one free game after another..?
There is a reason you speak like a marketer.... because you are not a gamer bro.
I also work in the industry and am privy to inside demographics, I have seen the actual numbers behind a certain Developer's all-in-one-pass & can tell you Free to Play is not the holy grail for the MMORPG industry. And that cross-platform games will be the only ones able to support quality F2P. Because fishing for whales is getting harder & harder. They have found that whales only bite once or twice and they are gone. They do not move on to other games with an open wallet.
Dolphin netting is the new term... but even if you cast a big enough net, it is just safer and better to become closed environment and charge a subscription. (Steady income vs random nettings = business model)
Understand, 18 million WoW refugees are getting older and have careers and disposable incomes now. The industry has taken notice to start ups/kickstarters that have people tossing them hundreds for a game they can't even play yet. That is all the proof any business man needs, to be sold on the viability of higher cost MMO on the way.
IE: If WoW cost $13/month, then chances are most of those players expect to pay more for their next game, they find worthy of playing for 5 years. What WoW player wouldn't pay $7 more per month for the next WoW?
And do you think those people who won't pay $20/month, even matter to future developers..? Only the ones still chasing whales..
Within 5 years, all the premium titles, will have a premium subscription associated with them. Free is not sustainable in the PC marketplace. Handheld/mobile/console apps is another story all together.
I am also in the industry... and disagree with your conclusion. There are different approaches to F2P, which make money from different customer bases. The eastern model is based on a broad playerbase, who pays very little individually (with some whales). The western model is based on a narrow playerbase, who pays more individually (with some whales). In the east, it is common to make less than a dollar (per month), whereas in the west it is common to make over ten dollars (per month). This is most commonly done through a subscription.
The approach that SOE is taking is to increase the amount of quality offerings, and to bundle them under one monthly sub. This will allow for some float between products, but no real loss of revenue, as long as they can keep the customer within their product base. They are also using crowdsourcing methods to increase the amount of content being generated, in an effort to avoid content depletion (and customer attrition).
You can see a similar approach from Nexon, and Perfect World. The consolidation of content under a few publishers allows for the offering of multiple products to the same customer, in an effort to maintain long term customer loyalty. The building of brands around F2P entertainment products is very similar to the creation of the major TV networks in the early 60's.
The 'interesting' part of all of this is that none of these companies are (now) chasing the WoW success story. These companies have all made the transition to the post WoW era, and are building sustainable gaming networks that are not reliant on a single game, or a breakout hit.
In the next 5 years you will see the steady growth of F2P networks, with sales offerings designed to keep customers within their network. There is no reason to move away from F2P (as it provides clear cost benefits), and in fact you will see it expand from PC to Consoles. Mobile will have a bit of backlash/re-adjustment as the market matures, then it will become more like the PC market (which has already gone through this).
Sorry, you are not privy to the #'s I am.
I have consulted for the 3 largest MMO companies in the last 10 years. Just finished my contract 5 days ago with a AAA associated game release. So I am free to speak openly, albeit under a NDA protecting actual data.
Let me pick your rebuttal apart : "The approach SOE is taking to increase the amount of quality offerings, and to bundle them under one monthly sub.. "
Bundled games typically have less quality... & the public is aware of this.
Bundling ONLY offers more value... to those who typically play more than one MMO. Most MMORPG gamers do not. They have indicated that they would rather play a single great game for 5 years, then 2 mediocre games over 4. That is what the public wants and what studies have shown. These people want to feel apart of something big and don't want to miss out on server events and camaraderie, etc. There are some, who are not in a subscription model who play many games... those are excluded. We are talking about paying customers.
The vast majority of people who bounce between games, do so because they are free...
Under a all-in-one style of subscription, very few people cross game. Sure they might log in, create a char and dabble to break their monotony. But these people are not spiritually invested in that game, or their characters. They are just a bread basket.
To the new, or the frugal.. a bundled package seems like a great buy. But the "float" between those individuals is not business added value to any company. It is more of a marketing thing, to keep older games afloat, than actual monetized business plan. People typically know what they want, they don't need a menu for what roleplaying game they want to play that day.
How did you jump from a "all-in-one subscription", to a trove of free games...? Then suggest that bundling them offers "a clear cost benefit"... yes, for the developer, not the person buying/using the product, or playing them for free. As the customer has to wade threw massive bureaucracy for customer support tickets for their games/product, etc. Or a developer that is trying to run & manage 3 games, instead of one.
Also, pay for all... & free for all.. are not the same.
Additionally, kickstarters already proven you wrong, that people are passionate about the roleplaying games and cash grab MMOs are a fishing in crowded waters. That bundling is only a value-add, not a business solution. Fact is, many MMORPG players are not looking for a "value". They have grown up now and are looking for quality experience.
So you will see in the next 5 years the FREE TO PLAY model for MMORPG dwindle, because all the whales will have been harpooned out of the water. Asian demographics are a whole other story and their incessant marketing and hype will never end... but then again, none of those are worthy of subscription model anyways. They are basically throw away MMOs.
Fractal, I agree that I do not have their current numbers. However, I do have (some of) the numbers that were used for the planning of their business model. I know that those numbers showed a clear proof of concept, and viability for the long term. I can not say with any certainty what results they are getting with them, as I am not party to daily operations. I will however say that we share some common ownership, and board members.
SOE is currently leveraging their existing engine development to produce multiple games at a lower cost. Using the forgelight engine, they have published Planetside2. They are now developing Landmark, H1Z1 and Everquest Next. Landmark and H1Z1 are technological offshoots, but were cheap to build, and as such have a decent ROI. Everquest Next will have some initial cannibalization from EQ1 + EQ2, which will be minimized by the current business model.
It is true that most of the players for the EQ variants will stick with just one game, but even in this case the perceived added value will help sell the monthly sub. There will also be a steady influx of players for EQ Next, and not all of them will stick. The ability to offer them other products immediately will increase overall retention.
F2P is ALL about marketing. The value of the business model is the ability to lower the cost of acquisition. This is why a good retention program, and cross promotion is a good match.
As for PW and Nexon, they are looking for the same bump in retention and decrease in overall cost by operating multiple games under one umbrella. I know this because they have also looked at the same numbers, and are working towards a similar goal.
F2P isn't going away. The reasons that made it popular have not changed, and as such, it will remain. However, it is losing its hot 'fad' status, and will just be one of the options available to customers. It is now in a long term growth cycle, rather than the rushed startup phase.
I would still expect games to try to launch P2P, then to convert to F2P when user acquisition costs become too expensive. This is the best way for companies to optimize revenue.... and that is really what is behind the business model choice. I would also expect to see more high quality F2P offerings in the long term, as they sustain better in a mature market.
Originally posted by DarkFail You not having the will power to not purchase things does not mean they are scamming you.
Yes. No one makes you buy drugs or go to the casino... it's totally your own fault if you get addicted... enablers don't exists, they are a myth... and Santa woke me up when he was coming down the chimney a few days ago...
Awww, found another one without will power. Enjoy your drugs and gambling... I guess.
Originally posted by Superman0X Originally posted by CalmOceans Originally posted by Mangofett Originally posted by CalmOceans Originally posted by Mangofett
1: MMOs don't implement gambling, because state governments would have already stepped in and started regulating it much like they have with internet poker. I think the fact that governments haven't stepped in proves that this isn't gambling. At best, what we are witnessing is an expensive gumball machine simulator.
"A proposed remote gambling bill in Singapore may put MMOs that use lockbox systems, as well as players who purchase lockboxes with real-world money, in danger of being prosecuted or being run out of town."
F2P MMO are incredibly close to being outright banned in many countries.
You are linking a very poorly edited third party article about a proposed bill (not approved, but proposed) in a third world country and saying it may be banned in many countries? Am I suppose to take this serious?
Not to mention, their citation for this information is a blog post by someone named "Mary-Ann"
But explain why hasn't US state governments stepped in on creating such bills? Or Federal Governments at that?
I'm gonna be taking off to watch the new Lord of the Rings movie, so that will give you some time to Google your answer I suppose, sigh.
When you read the law, and the comments made by the lawmakers you will find that there was never any issue with F2P in relation to the law. In fact, they clearly stated that this law was based on similar laws from other countries (with the same wording) and that there wasn't anything new here. This was clearly a case of media sensationalism.
The only reason Govt. hasn't stuck their fingers into online F2P "gambling" is because there is no money in it for them. If there was money in it for them, I assure you, online gaming would have fallen under gambling laws a long time ago.
What the Govt. declares, has little to do with the gambling behavior players exhibit in these games.
Its not a matter of that. Once again, WA state has made online gambling illegal. Why would they do this? They cannot touch any assets of online poker or casino winnings. Yet, they have made it illegal.
And Government declaration in these matters is most vital. If the gaming community is soooo bothered or worried about the poor addicted gamers then why is there no petition? Why hasnt your community stepped up and did anything about it?
This thread isnt about a matter of gambling. Someone used a hogwash twisted idea of gambling to come here and bash on F2P games. Nobody here honestly cares about the "victims" of these games or there would be more action.
The fact that there isnt clearly shows that the majority feel that this isnt a issue
From an ethical standpoint the F2P model is actually a lot worse than casinos or online gambling because it targets children. Kids are much less likely to have the mental strength to moderate themselves when engaging in potentially addictive activities like F2P gaming.
Gambling has been around much longer than F2P so legislatures around the world have had time to evaluate the risks and right up some laws to protect the most vulnerable, kids mostly. Some nations even ban gambling entirely.
IMO it's just a matter of time before governing bodies around the globe realize what's going on here and start regulating this whole mess. I wouldn't be surprised if 10 to 15 years from now most RMT games were 18+.
Originally posted by VelifaxI got ripped pretty bad with X-Rebirth, bought it for $50 on day one. Didn't complain, just waited (great game now).
Was AI improved? Because even if I ignored all the bugs and issues, the dumb AI ruined the experience for me completely - NPCs ramming into stations, getting stuck, poor tactics, etc.
Also, I guess that shameful out-of-ship graphics/gameplay did not improve either?
... F2P can be done horribly wrong, ex: Vindictus or Lotro with best in slot gear in cash shop or significant paywalls....
This is not true, everything in LOTRO can be earned in game. The player have to be really lazy to don't get all items it needs. The best gear in LOTRO is not bought in shop, is earned in game. The slot pieces & essences are not the exeption.
No burning desire to see what is on the other side of the paywall..?
nah .. no burning desire. Sure I am curious but there are a lot of new unplayed games I am curious about too.
And yes, i do spend money on games .. like WoW, or D3, and even some steam credit on MH, but so what? I am not a whale, and I don't need to climb over every pay wall.
And no .. i don't spend months in most games. I don't "invest" in games, i only play them for fun.
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx I play a lot of F2P games and i don't complain because i don't let companies scam me.
Pretty much this.
It is actually pretty hard for a company to scam players except for the whales. There are so many choices. It is so easy just to say ... well since you put up a pay wall, bye and let me check out this other game.
Heck, i don't even have time to finish all the single player games that I have ... i certainly don't need to go over pay walls for my entertainment.
I got ripped pretty bad with X-Rebirth, bought it for $50 on day one. Didn't complain, just waited (great game now).
Was AI improved? Because even if I ignored all the bugs and issues, the dumb AI ruined the experience for me completely - NPCs ramming into stations, getting stuck, poor tactics, etc.
Also, I guess that shameful out-of-ship graphics/gameplay did not improve either?
I don't view the portion of the game spent out of your ship as gameplay. It's a mini game and immersion feature to me. So the gameplay there has never been an issue. The graphics were always quite good, just some odd looking humans. I haven't seen anything egregious lately.
i'm afraid the AI does still have serious issues navigating in and around stations. As for tactics, I consider the combat another minigame so I don't notice the quality of AI there.
one serious gripe I had has been addressed; fps. Performance has been vastly improved.
Comments
Neither F2P nor P2P business models are gambling. Neither have anything to do with gambling. Diablo III was found to be gambling, because it (the game, not the business model) combined all three elements required to be gambling:
1. Consideration (Money in)
2. Chance
3. Prize (Money Out)
Commercial online gaming (regardless of model) commonly has the first two elements. If you pay for the game, pay for a sub, pay for a service, or put in any money, you meet element #1. Randomized drops from mobs or lockboxes meet element #2. The only portion missing is element #3, the ability to take money out. Once that is added, any commercial MMO(RPG) on the market would become gambling. There are types of MMO's (FPS and MOBA) that may not have random drops, and such do would not meet criteria #2. However, even many of these have added this as method to keep players playing.
What you have referred to as 'gambling elements' are in fact, games of chance. This is the foundation of most MMO(RPG)'s, regardless of model. This is what drives players to continue to play (and spend). This is the foundation of all current MMO(RPG)'s on the market today (aka the loot grind).
These 'exploitive' methods are commonly used in MMO's, most of which have been P2P until recently (when most of the remaining P2P games converted to F2P). The conversion from P2P to F2P did not stop the exploitation of their customer base, nor did the conversion late in their lifespan cause the exploitation that they had been doing for years.
If you would like an example of a game that is ACTUALLY gambling, you should look at Entropia Universe (formerly Project Entropia). This is ACTUAL gambling, and legally regulated as such (they are also regulated as a bank/financial institution).
Yes, i do. But only for ONE second.
The answer is simple. Whales. So there is some consequences to them ... but for me, i got a free part of the game with no consequence to me.
Tell me .. isn't that accurate?
Sorry, you are not privy to the #'s I am.
I have consulted for the 3 largest MMO companies in the last 10 years. Just finished my contract 5 days ago with a AAA associated game release. So I am free to speak openly, albeit under a NDA protecting actual data.
Let me pick your rebuttal apart : "The approach SOE is taking to increase the amount of quality offerings, and to bundle them under one monthly sub.. "
Bundled games typically have less quality... & the public is aware of this.
Bundling ONLY offers more value... to those who typically play more than one MMO. Most MMORPG gamers do not. They have indicated that they would rather play a single great game for 5 years, then 2 mediocre games over 4. That is what the public wants and what studies have shown. These people want to feel apart of something big and don't want to miss out on server events and camaraderie, etc. There are some, who are not in a subscription model who play many games... those are excluded. We are talking about paying customers.
The vast majority of people who bounce between games, do so because they are free...
Under a all-in-one style of subscription, very few people cross game. Sure they might log in, create a char and dabble to break their monotony. But these people are not spiritually invested in that game, or their characters. They are just a bread basket.
To the new, or the frugal.. a bundled package seems like a great buy. But the "float" between those individuals is not business added value to any company. It is more of a marketing thing, to keep older games afloat, than actual monetized business plan. People typically know what they want, they don't need a menu for what roleplaying game they want to play that day.
How did you jump from a "all-in-one subscription", to a trove of free games...? Then suggest that bundling them offers "a clear cost benefit"... yes, for the developer, not the person buying/using the product, or playing them for free. As the customer has to wade threw massive bureaucracy for customer support tickets for their games/product, etc. Or a developer that is trying to run & manage 3 games, instead of one.
Also, pay for all... & free for all.. are not the same.
Additionally, kickstarters already proven you wrong, that people are passionate about the roleplaying games and cash grab MMOs are a fishing in crowded waters. That bundling is only a value-add, not a business solution. Fact is, many MMORPG players are not looking for a "value". They have grown up now and are looking for quality experience.
So you will see in the next 5 years the FREE TO PLAY model for MMORPG dwindle, because all the whales will have been harpooned out of the water. Asian demographics are a whole other story and their incessant marketing and hype will never end... but then again, none of those are worthy of subscription model anyways. They are basically throw away MMOs.
Yes, it is accurate for you... who have claimed you play until you are asked to pay. Then you claim to move on to the next free game.... but you really have not stated how you feel about not achieving, or advancing within those games. Or how much you wanted to get past that paywall and deeper into said game... You have only stated that it doesn't matter to you, uno? to leave the game you've been playing for months, for another free one. No burning desire to see what is on the other side of the paywall..?
It is all lollypops from you....
You kid with this community too much. Do you really want us to believe you've spent 10 years here, 10k posts and you don't spend any money on any games.. and that you don't ever want to spend money on games and would love nothing more than to contually play one free game after another..?
There is a reason you speak like a marketer.... because you are not a gamer bro.
Fractal, I agree that I do not have their current numbers. However, I do have (some of) the numbers that were used for the planning of their business model. I know that those numbers showed a clear proof of concept, and viability for the long term. I can not say with any certainty what results they are getting with them, as I am not party to daily operations. I will however say that we share some common ownership, and board members.
SOE is currently leveraging their existing engine development to produce multiple games at a lower cost. Using the forgelight engine, they have published Planetside2. They are now developing Landmark, H1Z1 and Everquest Next. Landmark and H1Z1 are technological offshoots, but were cheap to build, and as such have a decent ROI. Everquest Next will have some initial cannibalization from EQ1 + EQ2, which will be minimized by the current business model.
It is true that most of the players for the EQ variants will stick with just one game, but even in this case the perceived added value will help sell the monthly sub. There will also be a steady influx of players for EQ Next, and not all of them will stick. The ability to offer them other products immediately will increase overall retention.
F2P is ALL about marketing. The value of the business model is the ability to lower the cost of acquisition. This is why a good retention program, and cross promotion is a good match.
As for PW and Nexon, they are looking for the same bump in retention and decrease in overall cost by operating multiple games under one umbrella. I know this because they have also looked at the same numbers, and are working towards a similar goal.
F2P isn't going away. The reasons that made it popular have not changed, and as such, it will remain. However, it is losing its hot 'fad' status, and will just be one of the options available to customers. It is now in a long term growth cycle, rather than the rushed startup phase.
I would still expect games to try to launch P2P, then to convert to F2P when user acquisition costs become too expensive. This is the best way for companies to optimize revenue.... and that is really what is behind the business model choice. I would also expect to see more high quality F2P offerings in the long term, as they sustain better in a mature market.
Awww, found another one without will power. Enjoy your drugs and gambling... I guess.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/10/06/singapore-gambling-law-may-put-mmo-lockboxes-at-risk/
"A proposed remote gambling bill in Singapore may put MMOs that use lockbox systems, as well as players who purchase lockboxes with real-world money, in danger of being prosecuted or being run out of town."
F2P MMO are incredibly close to being outright banned in many countries.
You are linking a very poorly edited third party article about a proposed bill (not approved, but proposed) in a third world country and saying it may be banned in many countries? Am I suppose to take this serious?
Not to mention, their citation for this information is a blog post by someone named "Mary-Ann"
But explain why hasn't US state governments stepped in on creating such bills? Or Federal Governments at that?
I'm gonna be taking off to watch the new Lord of the Rings movie, so that will give you some time to Google your answer I suppose, sigh.
Here is the actual Bill from Singapore government. http://www.parliament.gov.sg/sites/default/files/Remote%20Gambling%20Bill%2023-2014.pdf
Singapore isn't a 3rd world country btw.
When you read the law, and the comments made by the lawmakers you will find that there was never any issue with F2P in relation to the law. In fact, they clearly stated that this law was based on similar laws from other countries (with the same wording) and that there wasn't anything new here. This was clearly a case of media sensationalism.
The only reason Govt. hasn't stuck their fingers into online F2P "gambling" is because there is no money in it for them. If there was money in it for them, I assure you, online gaming would have fallen under gambling laws a long time ago.
What the Govt. declares, has little to do with the gambling behavior players exhibit in these games.
Its not a matter of that. Once again, WA state has made online gambling illegal. Why would they do this? They cannot touch any assets of online poker or casino winnings. Yet, they have made it illegal.And Government declaration in these matters is most vital. If the gaming community is soooo bothered or worried about the poor addicted gamers then why is there no petition? Why hasnt your community stepped up and did anything about it?
This thread isnt about a matter of gambling. Someone used a hogwash twisted idea of gambling to come here and bash on F2P games. Nobody here honestly cares about the "victims" of these games or there would be more action.
The fact that there isnt clearly shows that the majority feel that this isnt a issue
From an ethical standpoint the F2P model is actually a lot worse than casinos or online gambling because it targets children. Kids are much less likely to have the mental strength to moderate themselves when engaging in potentially addictive activities like F2P gaming.
Gambling has been around much longer than F2P so legislatures around the world have had time to evaluate the risks and right up some laws to protect the most vulnerable, kids mostly. Some nations even ban gambling entirely.
IMO it's just a matter of time before governing bodies around the globe realize what's going on here and start regulating this whole mess. I wouldn't be surprised if 10 to 15 years from now most RMT games were 18+.
Speaking for myself, it's because there are FAR MORE important scams to speak out against.
I got ripped pretty bad with X-Rebirth, bought it for $50 on day one. Didn't complain, just waited (great game now).
Got waaay more important wrongs to correct than this.
Was AI improved? Because even if I ignored all the bugs and issues, the dumb AI ruined the experience for me completely - NPCs ramming into stations, getting stuck, poor tactics, etc.
Also, I guess that shameful out-of-ship graphics/gameplay did not improve either?
This is not true, everything in LOTRO can be earned in game. The player have to be really lazy to don't get all items it needs. The best gear in LOTRO is not bought in shop, is earned in game. The slot pieces & essences are not the exeption.
nah .. no burning desire. Sure I am curious but there are a lot of new unplayed games I am curious about too.
And yes, i do spend money on games .. like WoW, or D3, and even some steam credit on MH, but so what? I am not a whale, and I don't need to climb over every pay wall.
And no .. i don't spend months in most games. I don't "invest" in games, i only play them for fun.
Pretty much this.
It is actually pretty hard for a company to scam players except for the whales. There are so many choices. It is so easy just to say ... well since you put up a pay wall, bye and let me check out this other game.
Heck, i don't even have time to finish all the single player games that I have ... i certainly don't need to go over pay walls for my entertainment.
I don't view the portion of the game spent out of your ship as gameplay. It's a mini game and immersion feature to me. So the gameplay there has never been an issue. The graphics were always quite good, just some odd looking humans. I haven't seen anything egregious lately.
i'm afraid the AI does still have serious issues navigating in and around stations. As for tactics, I consider the combat another minigame so I don't notice the quality of AI there.
one serious gripe I had has been addressed; fps. Performance has been vastly improved.
Because people are buy to win in their minds.
People Buy sex.
People buy kids.
People buy cars.
People buy a new shiny sword for their game.
All to boost their failing ego that needs to be loved, its not love but in their own mind it feels good.
For 19.95 I will send you love you long time email !!! lol
Yeh ... games sell the illusion of achievement and greatness, because real life achievement is a lot harder, and take much longer time.