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Landmark: "This is *not* the final form of combat." ~ Dave Georgeson

13

Comments

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,346
    Originally posted by Vutar
    So what he's saying is, even though action style combat has failed in every MMORPG to date, the EQnext team refuses to acknowledge this and will charge ahead into the abyss. Okay, I guess.

    I am getting this impression. seem like Sony is trying to cover for this mistake. the game was developed during the GW2's action combat hype period. Now people dont really like that as much now after experiencing the hype for themselves, and it was too late to turn back by then for Sony.

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Vutar
    So what he's saying is, even though action style combat has failed in every MMORPG to date, the EQnext team refuses to acknowledge this and will charge ahead into the abyss. Okay, I guess.

    I am getting this impression. seem like Sony is trying to cover for this mistake. the game was developed during the GW2's action combat hype period. Now people dont really like that as much now after experiencing the hype for themselves, and it was too late to turn back by then for Sony.

    I agree totally and i even tried  TERA,it is just weak sauce.This what ruins game creativity,these big shots see a market trend and that is what they aim for,instead of making THEIR OWN creative ideas.Also what have we seen in EQ2 over the years,they dumbed every system down to make it easier to design,i expect nothing to change and that is also why they adopted Story Bricks,another weapon that allows EASE of design.

    One other thing i should mention is that,his excuse of what would end up being a ridiculous circle strafing game is lack of AI,NO that is NOT going to help anything besides the fact,WHY is there no AI at this point?It does not take a year or two to code in AI,i mean seriously did they just start on this game last month?

    None the less i have not lost total faith in their team i will still anticipate the release and see what it has to offer.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884
    Originally posted by gylnne
    Originally posted by lordshroom420

    Dude is that it really ? I have  played Eq and eq2 for awhile now ! why go backwards on Graphics, Sounds, Spell particles ETC?

    not troll'n just thought it would have been better then getting in a time machine and going back ten years [such as vanguard] why so cartoon 'e ? See how well it's working for wildstar .. Sad Face! 2015 and we can't do better graphics then Toontown?

    Damn it! I Love EQ  p.s. Who asked for this??????

     

    I have been asking this question since the cartoons were unveiled via a live stream.  I guess you cannot have a world you can build without going cartoon.

    2014 we have dual, quad and more cpu's and vid cards with massive amounts of memory and yet game designers decide to go back to Saturday morning cartoons to create a game.

    has to do with 2 things - a) voxels for destructablity and b) longevity

    cartoonish looks just age much better thats a fact - and you can creat much more expressive faces...so i think its a wise decision

    Mickey mouse still looks like mickey mouse years later, Big fucking deal. They don't need to make a graphics model that will look the same for 50 years and still look stupid all those years later.

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by Dreamo84
    Originally posted by Areteo
    Every time.  Every time I see a new Landmark/Next video, I get excited...until it starts running and I see the horrible cartoon figures.  Sigh.
     

    How many times do you have to see the game to remember it's not for you and move on? Either your memory is really that bad, or you are trolling.

    Or there are other things in life and the poster doesn't dwell on it. This same phenomena will occur when people look to download the game. Nah, looks stupid. No Download. 6 months pass. Nah looks stupid still. No download.

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • XiaokiXiaoki Member EpicPosts: 3,608


    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by nuttob I love this game, and have to laugh at all the "I hate Landmark because......cartooooons!"  comments. Who cares about innovation particularly in the building category.  The cartoons make the game a fail hehe!
    Yeah, god forbid people be angry about them taking their beloved franchise and just pissing all over it in the art style department.  Why would anybody be angry about that.

    Yeah. We want gritty realistic graphics like

    image

  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,953
    Listening to community feedback is the first step of failure. You should already know what you are going to do and do it.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     


    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    Originally posted by nuttob I love this game, and have to laugh at all the "I hate Landmark because......cartooooons!"  comments. Who cares about innovation particularly in the building category.  The cartoons make the game a fail hehe!
    Yeah, god forbid people be angry about them taking their beloved franchise and just pissing all over it in the art style department.  Why would anybody be angry about that.
    Yeah. We want gritty realistic graphics like

     

    image

    Worst example of EQ2 Is better in some ways than best example EQNext. Notice that the character is still proportioned in a better way for the race, and the lack of giant eyes and hominid posture is also a better choice.

    The textures and detail are not up to par for a modern game, but it's an old game. This attempt at ridicule failed, because for me that picture is EQ. A newer version should have been like that but improved, not a cartoon.

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • LonzoLonzo Member UncommonPosts: 294
    With this experimental EQ landmark editor crap SOE is destroying all the trust old EQ fans had.
    The should just develop EQ next like a normal game and release the beta in 2016. oh and plz no action combat and good trinity group fights. Thanks! Can someone kick this Georgsen plz?

    image
  • VutarVutar Member UncommonPosts: 939
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Vutar
    So what he's saying is, even though action style combat has failed in every MMORPG to date, the EQnext team refuses to acknowledge this and will charge ahead into the abyss. Okay, I guess.

    What games have failed and how do you determine that?

    NW, Tera, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, insert decent number of upcoming games... While we are talking MMORPGs, the number of "successful" action games is pretty long in other genres. I see no reason a company couldn't pull it off in this one.

    You not liking it =/= fail.

    SOE seems fully aware of the shortcomings of these games and has said as much. Doesn't mean you throw out a potentially great design because either other companies did it a certain way or missing elements weren't available.

    Not saying EQN will have mind blowing, everyone loves it, action combat, but they aren't carbon copying previous games and have a few tricks up their sleeves that others didn't have.

    The current version isn't too far off from other games and as he said, is just the bones. Which makes sense as previous games were fairly lacking for me, good idea, not the best execution. Now if they don't follow through and the AI is meh and combat doesn't get a lot of polish, I'll have the pitchfork ready, but that time hasn't come yet.

     

    So your defense of EQnext using action combat are those games? NW (empty), Tera (empty), Wildstart (empty),  GW2 (empty), and ESO. ESO is the only game you listed that is doing half way okay and even that is completely underperforming when you take into consideration the Elder Scrolls franchise and how many fans they have to start with.

    If your best defense are the games you listed, you should probably take a step back from your EQnext fetish and reevaluate why you are being so positive about it.

     

    The landmark servers are empty. No one plays the game. Its a paid alpha/beta and still no one  who paid bothers logging in. People clearly are not enjoying it. The combat is just one more thing to throw on the pile of terrible that is being shoved down everyone's throat as Everquest. I actually received an email from SOE yesterday listing reasons why I should come back and play landmark some more, a beta. When you have to start marketing the game to people who have already paid, your game is in trouble.

  • XiaokiXiaoki Member EpicPosts: 3,608


    Originally posted by Archlyte
    Worst example of EQ2 Is better in some ways than best example EQNext. Notice that the character is still proportioned in a better way for the race, and the lack of giant eyes and hominid posture is also a better choice.The textures and detail are not up to par for a modern game, but it's an old game. This attempt at ridicule failed, because for me that picture is EQ. A newer version should have been like that but improved, not a cartoon.
    Are you sure you can see that EQ2 picture clearly? I dont think you can.

    Take off your Nostalgia brand rose tinted glasses first then give it another look.

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Originally posted by Vutar
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Vutar
    So what he's saying is, even though action style combat has failed in every MMORPG to date, the EQnext team refuses to acknowledge this and will charge ahead into the abyss. Okay, I guess.

    What games have failed and how do you determine that?

    NW, Tera, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, insert decent number of upcoming games... While we are talking MMORPGs, the number of "successful" action games is pretty long in other genres. I see no reason a company couldn't pull it off in this one.

    You not liking it =/= fail.

    SOE seems fully aware of the shortcomings of these games and has said as much. Doesn't mean you throw out a potentially great design because either other companies did it a certain way or missing elements weren't available.

    Not saying EQN will have mind blowing, everyone loves it, action combat, but they aren't carbon copying previous games and have a few tricks up their sleeves that others didn't have.

    The current version isn't too far off from other games and as he said, is just the bones. Which makes sense as previous games were fairly lacking for me, good idea, not the best execution. Now if they don't follow through and the AI is meh and combat doesn't get a lot of polish, I'll have the pitchfork ready, but that time hasn't come yet.

     

    So your defense of EQnext using action combat are those games? NW (empty), Tera (empty), Wildstart (empty),  GW2 (empty), and ESO. ESO is the only game you listed that is doing half way okay and even that is completely underperforming when you take into consideration the Elder Scrolls franchise and how many fans they have to start with.

    If your best defense are the games you listed, you should probably take a step back from your EQnext fetish and reevaluate why you are being so positive about it.

     

    The landmark servers are empty. No one plays the game. Its a paid alpha/beta and still no one  who paid bothers logging in. People clearly are not enjoying it. The combat is just one more thing to throw on the pile of terrible that is being shoved down everyone's throat as Everquest. I actually received an email from SOE yesterday listing reasons why I should come back and play landmark some more, a beta. When you have to start marketing the game to people who have already paid, your game is in trouble.

    I think your being overly generous about ESO, but generally i think you pretty much nailed it image

     

    Landmark is no doubt being used as a 'testbed' for ideas for EQNext, i think its the games lack of popularity that is the reason why EQNext has been pushed back again, now they just need to try and find a combat system that players will enjoy, not easy if players aren't even logging in to try those features, no doubt they will try again after making more changes to the combat, in the hope that one of them does the trick. If that was Landmarks only issue though, it might even work, but i think before long their going to have to re-evaluate some of the basics, particularly the aesthetics. I think that, is also one of the major reasons why Wildstar failed as a game, cartoon graphics are just not fun any more, assuming they ever were that is, which i am not entirely certain they were, i think for the most part they have been 'tolerated' in games rather than 'liked' image

  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Member EpicPosts: 1,960
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by nuttob
    I love this game, and have to laugh at all the "I hate Landmark because......cartooooons!"  comments. Who cares about innovation particularly in the building category.  The cartoons make the game a fail hehe!

    Yeah, god forbid people be angry about them taking their beloved franchise and just pissing all over it in the art style department.  Why would anybody be angry about that.

    I'd say the true deviation from the franchise was EQ2, EQ pretty much had stylized art. It certainly wasn't gritty or realistic, it was colorful and exaggerated.

    This. A thousand times, this. 

    EQ2 had some very impressive graphics for the time, but the aesthetic was utter crap. Models looked like plastic action figures, and the animations were awful. Not to mention they didn't hold up as well visually as other games with more stylized art, and it also didn't scale well at all for people with older PCs, essentially alienating a number of potential customers. 

    Stylized art holds up better over time, and allows for better scalability. 

    I don't care much for Landmark at the moment, but the graphics and aesthetic are fine, for the most part. 

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

    We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD. 

    #IStandWithVic

  • LonzoLonzo Member UncommonPosts: 294
    Seriously by the time EQ Next comes out everyone will be bored because people have already seen the grafics and gameplay in the bane that Landmark is...

    image
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,915

    Is the reality ruining the hype now that there are things to see and feel? Now that's unique. It's never happened before in the history of mmorpgs...

     

    Glad I'm giving all this alpha/beta crap a pass... wake me up when EQN is ready to ship. I'lll check it out for sure then.

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

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  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Is the reality ruining the hype now that there are things to see and feel? Now that's unique. It's never happened before in the history of mmorpgs...

     

    Glad I'm giving all this alpha/beta crap a pass... wake me up when EQN is ready to ship. I'lll check it out for sure then.

    Not a bad idea, might even be a Christmas present to look forward to in 2017 image

  • sschruppsschrupp Member UncommonPosts: 664

    I've been in a LOT of beta tests in the last 10 years. Landmark feels to me more like a Beta test rather than a marketing demo than any other test. 

     

    If you've been in any beta tests think about what you saw when you started. A full game with all assets and all systems already in place. You were just there to play the game and offer some bug reports.

     

    If you joined Landmark a couple weeks ago the game didn't even have PvE combat in it. It was literally released to testers 7 days ago. Any other beta test you've been in otherwise (with very very rare exception) the combat system has been in, tested, changed, tweaked, tested, changed, scrapped, reworked, tested, tweaked and released LONG before you got into the game. 

     

    We've been testing this game for a long time without combat. This is literally the devs saying, "Ok, so here's what we're kind of thinking. Play around with it and let us know what you think so we can really start working on it." Anyone expecting a polished combat system at this point needs to have their head checked.

     

    This is obviously a basic basic basic framework. 

     

     

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     


    Originally posted by Archlyte
    Worst example of EQ2 Is better in some ways than best example EQNext. Notice that the character is still proportioned in a better way for the race, and the lack of giant eyes and hominid posture is also a better choice.

     

    The textures and detail are not up to par for a modern game, but it's an old game. This attempt at ridicule failed, because for me that picture is EQ. A newer version should have been like that but improved, not a cartoon.


    Are you sure you can see that EQ2 picture clearly? I dont think you can.

     

    Take off your Nostalgia brand rose tinted glasses first then give it another look.

    My vision is fine, and what I can clearly see is a clown attempting to obfuscate his weak points of argument.

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,818
    If there is no block button combat will be outdated even after it's improved.
    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Originally posted by Solar_Prophet
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by nuttob
    I love this game, and have to laugh at all the "I hate Landmark because......cartooooons!"  comments. Who cares about innovation particularly in the building category.  The cartoons make the game a fail hehe!

    Yeah, god forbid people be angry about them taking their beloved franchise and just pissing all over it in the art style department.  Why would anybody be angry about that.

    I'd say the true deviation from the franchise was EQ2, EQ pretty much had stylized art. It certainly wasn't gritty or realistic, it was colorful and exaggerated.

    This. A thousand times, this. 

    EQ2 had some very impressive graphics for the time, but the aesthetic was utter crap. Models looked like plastic action figures, and the animations were awful. Not to mention they didn't hold up as well visually as other games with more stylized art, and it also didn't scale well at all for people with older PCs, essentially alienating a number of potential customers. 

    Stylized art holds up better over time, and allows for better scalability. 

    I don't care much for Landmark at the moment, but the graphics and aesthetic are fine, for the most part. 

    x1000 wrong. Any product will be evaluated initially and sometimes perpetually on its aesthetics. The game that SOE is making is not up to the standard of technological achievement as perceived by the gaming public. They are aiming to get console and MOBA players, so there are all kinds of considerations for how the game will be matched up in the market. People don't care about excuses (destructible world, longevity, etc.), they only care about the product they see. And don't compare it to minecraft because that was the indy equivalent of WoW. EQNext is just a mish mash of features thrown together under an IP that they threw under the bus.

    Think about how the Wii had an innovative control system, but didn't match up to the visuals on PS3 or Xbox360 AND was aimed more at kids. Nintendo sold a lot of units initially , but the cartoon graphics and gimmicky controller didn't keep people around.

    The other segment of the population is the PC MMORPG crowd. A good portion of which are WoW vets who have just been given a graphics upgrade to their game. There is a small wandering audience and a large temporary audience that peeks in at any new Game.

    EQNext punches you in the face with a cartoony look that many people will simply bypass for simpler but better looking games, especially on the console. If they hadn't gone with F2P this game would probably have hit its release with a giant exodus that would make SWTOR's look small and petty by comparison. SWTOR at least has Star Wars so it has an automatic thralldom, but EQNext has kicked the fan base in the ass.

    EQNext is on a course toward underperforming in a market that has better looking games, and also sandbox games that do a better job of taking the PC MMORPG player into consideration.

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • XiaokiXiaoki Member EpicPosts: 3,608


    Originally posted by Archlyte
    Originally posted by Xiaoki   Originally posted by Archlyte Worst example of EQ2 Is better in some ways than best example EQNext. Notice that the character is still proportioned in a better way for the race, and the lack of giant eyes and hominid posture is also a better choice.   The textures and detail are not up to par for a modern game, but it's an old game. This attempt at ridicule failed, because for me that picture is EQ. A newer version should have been like that but improved, not a cartoon.
    Are you sure you can see that EQ2 picture clearly? I dont think you can.   Take off your Nostalgia brand rose tinted glasses first then give it another look.
    My vision is fine, and what I can clearly see is a clown attempting to obfuscate his weak points of argument.

    And I can clearly see when a bitter veteran is blindly lashing out at anything that is new or different.
  • BurntCabbageBurntCabbage Member UncommonPosts: 482

    heres the real shocker in 2 years from smedly he will come out n say...

    SUPRISE !!! LANDMARK IS EQN!!1!

    image

     

  • IncomparableIncomparable Member UncommonPosts: 1,128

    Looks like blizzards fps. I really liked the look of blizzards fps and mix of RPG abilities.

    Could use more polish, but the mobility looks good. A lot of mmos have combat that doesn't even look good. So at least it has that going for it compared to others.

     

    “Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     


    Originally posted by Archlyte

    Originally posted by Xiaoki  

    Originally posted by Archlyte Worst example of EQ2 Is better in some ways than best example EQNext. Notice that the character is still proportioned in a better way for the race, and the lack of giant eyes and hominid posture is also a better choice.   The textures and detail are not up to par for a modern game, but it's an old game. This attempt at ridicule failed, because for me that picture is EQ. A newer version should have been like that but improved, not a cartoon.
    Are you sure you can see that EQ2 picture clearly? I dont think you can.   Take off your Nostalgia brand rose tinted glasses first then give it another look.
    My vision is fine, and what I can clearly see is a clown attempting to obfuscate his weak points of argument.
    And I can clearly see when a bitter veteran is blindly lashing out at anything that is new or different.

     

    Yes, because cartoony graphics with massive as fuck shoulder armor and bright primary colors is "new" and "different"...

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • xanthmetisxanthmetis Member UncommonPosts: 141
    I would love to try the combat... but I logged in and had to craft the weapons and was so lost... I coudlnt figure out how to get ether shards and you seem to need a lot... Not to mention I hate crafting... I was hoping for them to be in my inventory or a vendor, but alas...
  • GruntyGrunty Member EpicPosts: 8,657
    Originally posted by xanthmetis
    I would love to try the combat... but I logged in and had to craft the weapons and was so lost... I coudlnt figure out how to get ether shards and you seem to need a lot... Not to mention I hate crafting... I was hoping for them to be in my inventory or a vendor, but alas...

    Landmark isn't for you if you don't like crafting. 

    Otherwise look for the Stone Forge at the spot you first log in to the game near the portal gem.  You can make Adventurer (starter) tools and weapons without needing any resources.  Ether shards are looted from monsters you kill or from certain ground resources that are too rare to try to find until you make a second tier tool that will display ground resource locations

     

    "I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone.  It's not.  The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone."  Robin Williams
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