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Too easy then suddenly too hard

gessekai332gessekai332 Member UncommonPosts: 861

Although I love this game to death, I have to admit that the developers have to find a better way to ease new players into the current endgame population. Leveling 1-50 can be very easy and simple, to the point of being extremely boring for certain classes, but then when you get to extreme primals, bahamut coil, or even hard mode dungeon farming runs, it is a a rude awakening. even for me there are times i even wish i had rolled the simplest character possible just so i am able to put as much focus on the mechanics of the fight so i dont die instead of having to care about complex rotations or maximizing my dps. 

 

Not only does the difficulty of completing a dungeon/boss suddenly ramp up exponentially, the expectations of you as a player suddenly spike as well. Wipe too many times on Titan Ex? healers/tank leave or some people will even kick you. Didn't watch the fight video beforehand? kick or abandoned. Not  geared well enough or killing trash too slow for expert duty finder? get yelled at.  Now players who are used to clearing dungeons on the first try are now frustrated because they are dying to garuda ex after 5 or 10 attempts and are unable to clear it. They dont realize that this is the norm and that for most people it takes at least 5 or 10 attempts just  to even learn the mechanics. 

 

The new players that stay to 50 are usually the ones that like to take it easy and dont mind clearing boring/simple dungeons, but now are confronted with extremely hard content. the new players that would have enjoyed the difficult content have already left at lvl 15 because thinking the game is too easy. 

 

This is a huge issue that hopefully SE can address by the next expansion =/ 

Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

Comments

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332

    It is a big step up but what makes it bad is two things 

    1 I don't like Wowish type end game content.

    2 It is  boring repeatable content meaning those other vets already have it memorized,fights should have total randomness to them.These fights take time to setup but the whole problem with gaming is that players no longer want anything that si not a big reward,they simply want Boss fights and big loot,why i said the rpg aspect is lone gone.

    As soon as i saw why people were login to the guild and what they were doing then log out again, i knew the game  got shallow at 50 and i promptly left the game.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100

    This is what alot of people said happened to Wildstar. I experienced it, but it didn't put me off so much I quit, like tens of thousands did. I say if someone can do it, I can do it. Other people say "this sucks", take their stuff and go home.

    I don't have an opinion for FFXIV in this respect because I didn't, in my time playing it, reach that aspect, (but you say it's new)  except with the clearly (intentionally?) unpatched (broken) stuff, and that wasn't even a huge deal, because I liked the game for alot of other reasons, like the crafting, and knew they'd eventually fix it. Doubt I'll return to it though, as I'm kinda been-there-done-that toward all FF now.

     

    edit: oh, to the issue of groups' selectivity regarding learning curve, all games are like that because people in general are like that. There are always a few who will be patient and help as you learn, but they never amount enough for the masses. Past that, when you (yes you) are to the point you know it, do it in your sleep, just want to get it done, most days you just don't want to mess with anything other than a clean run. It's not that the new person is somehow impaired and is bad and should feel bad, but because "I just didn't wake up today wanting to go through the motions of spending 3 hours in (this place) on (this boss)". I see that happening when I'm new to anything, understand, and quickly look to those to whom I may explain, "hey, I'm new to this and need help.". I'm not just going to jump on the Patriot's offensive line and expect to get thrown the ball and everyone love me for playing football with them. It's not real.

  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,622

    Well for primals that's why you have stages (Normal, Hard, Extreme) so you get used slowly to their design.

    As far as coil of bahamut etc I agree with you.


  • d_20d_20 Member RarePosts: 1,878

    OP, this is exactly what all endgame raiding/dungeon/gear-grind games are like. I don't think it can be fixed. Otherwise, the "hardcore" people will pitch a hissy fit about the game being dumbed down because they want to be the only ones wearing the flashy gear. It's been that way for years.

     

    You can see these forces at work in ESO as they try to find their footing as an mmorpg. The schism lines in the community are becoming quite clear if you follow the forums there. They are actually trying to move the game in this gear-grind direction to keep people subbing.

     

    Other types of games are coming out, these days, Bacchus be praised.


  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    Originally posted by d_20

    OP, this is exactly what all endgame raiding/dungeon/gear-grind games are like. I don't think it can be fixed. Otherwise, the "hardcore" people will pitch a hissy fit about the game being dumbed down because they want to be the only ones wearing the flashy gear. It's been that way for years.

     

    You can see these forces at work in ESO as they try to find their footing as an mmorpg. The schism lines in the community are becoming quite clear if you follow the forums there. They are actually trying to move the game in this gear-grind direction to keep people subbing.

     

    Other types of games are coming out, these days, Bacchus be praised.

    This is like the flip side of what I say and I don't think it's fair. You're equating (people who want to be good at things and just get them done) with (people who like to laugh at you because you're not they). I don't think that's right. It's not right in my case. Some days I do wake up and say, "huh, I think I'll be really cool in my current game to a few people today and work with them to get ahead". I think alot of people say that because I see it, I experience it from like-minded players. Also, if you stop relegating "us" to the "bad people pile", maybe you'll get better results from "us".

    disclaimer: "us" is in quotes as a subset of gamers, not specifically the gamer illuminati

  • gessekai332gessekai332 Member UncommonPosts: 861
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    It is a big step up but what makes it bad is two things 

    1 I don't like Wowish type end game content.

    2 It is  boring repeatable content meaning those other vets already have it memorized,fights should have total randomness to them.These fights take time to setup but the whole problem with gaming is that players no longer want anything that si not a big reward,they simply want Boss fights and big loot,why i said the rpg aspect is lone gone.

    As soon as i saw why people were login to the guild and what they were doing then log out again, i knew the game  got shallow at 50 and i promptly left the game.

     

    there's no such thing as "randomness" when you are playing against computer ai enemies. its just not possible. players will always find a way to game the system.  the only time you can have "true" randomness is when your enemies are human. also, in the endgame of ffxiv there are quite a few battles where your team needs to readjust tactics on the fly. 

    Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  • leinad312leinad312 Member UncommonPosts: 319
    Aye, the gear/token grind is why I've pretty much stopped playing FF14.

    Playing - FFXIV,  ESO
    Played - FFXI, WoW, Lineage 2, Guild Wars, Aion, SWToR, LotRO, GW2, TERA, Rift, ArcheAge, TSW

  • d_20d_20 Member RarePosts: 1,878
    Originally posted by Adjuvant1
    Originally posted by d_20

    OP, this is exactly what all endgame raiding/dungeon/gear-grind games are like. I don't think it can be fixed. Otherwise, the "hardcore" people will pitch a hissy fit about the game being dumbed down because they want to be the only ones wearing the flashy gear. It's been that way for years.

     

    You can see these forces at work in ESO as they try to find their footing as an mmorpg. The schism lines in the community are becoming quite clear if you follow the forums there. They are actually trying to move the game in this gear-grind direction to keep people subbing.

     

    Other types of games are coming out, these days, Bacchus be praised.

    This is like the flip side of what I say and I don't think it's fair. You're equating (people who want to be good at things and just get them done) with (people who like to laugh at you because you're not they). I don't think that's right. It's not right in my case. Some days I do wake up and say, "huh, I think I'll be really cool in my current game to a few people today and work with them to get ahead". I think alot of people say that because I see it, I experience it from like-minded players. Also, if you stop relegating "us" to the "bad people pile", maybe you'll get better results from "us".

    disclaimer: "us" is in quotes as a subset of gamers, not specifically the gamer illuminati

    You're right. I spoke to broadly here. I intend to talk about elitists -- who are not as good for a game's community and they think they are.

     

    When I think of gamer types, it could be something similar to what's discussed here as a reference: http://www.amazon.com/Century-Design-Charles-River-Development/dp/1584504293/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1419295125&sr=1-1&keywords=game+design+in+the+twenty+first+century

     

    I basically agree with the school of thought that there are certain gamer psychology types and they are not right or wrong. There are just different ways that people have fun. So people who like to work as a team and achieve visual, measurable, provable signs of their success in that field have a valid right to have fun in the way they like, of course.

     

    There should be difficult challenges that not everybody will overcome. There should be challenges designed for people who like to group to get things done. I simply prefer a game that offers wider array of choices than the gear grind and the elitism that often goes with it. I've been in it and I've seen it in WoW when I used to raid. There was politics, bickering over raiding spots and gear rolls, etc. That wasn't fun for me. It was my last experience with raiding, so my views may be jaded by that.

     

     


  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    Not all endgame content is meant for everyone, just like pretty much every mmorpg. And honestly, they dumb down previously released content almost every other month, so if people can't keep up, its not really SE's fault, people just need to learn how to play. That aside, people are better off testing their skills on something like Tower raids because yes, 8 man content is meant to be more for serious players. As I said before tho, there's echo buffs and what not, yet people are still complaining which is sad. If people can't clear stuff with echo buffs, they should either pay to clear it or just dont bother.
  • ChrisboxChrisbox Member UncommonPosts: 1,729
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    It is a big step up but what makes it bad is two things 

    1 I don't like Wowish type end game content.

    2 It is  boring repeatable content meaning those other vets already have it memorized,fights should have total randomness to them.These fights take time to setup but the whole problem with gaming is that players no longer want anything that si not a big reward,they simply want Boss fights and big loot,why i said the rpg aspect is lone gone.

    As soon as i saw why people were login to the guild and what they were doing then log out again, i knew the game  got shallow at 50 and i promptly left the game.

    Here's the issue with "total randomness" in hardcore raiding  You will have people unsubbing in hordes because FC A) killed the boss before FC B) because they got better mechanics RNG.  Everytime you incorporate RNG into a fight there is an easier and ideal situation versus the other or others. 

    That being said if you paid any attention to their most recent addition final coil, there is a fair amount of RNG present. Take the last phases of t10 and t11 for example.  Both of which are a perfect example of what I said earlier with the easier situation. Ideally in the last phase of t10 you would want to get absolutely no tether/charge combos and just either tether single or charge single.  In t11 ideally you would love for your tanks to get nanospored together every single time along with a pair of dps.  

     

    Played-Everything
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  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916
    Originally posted by Chrisbox
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    It is a big step up but what makes it bad is two things 

    1 I don't like Wowish type end game content.

    2 It is  boring repeatable content meaning those other vets already have it memorized,fights should have total randomness to them.These fights take time to setup but the whole problem with gaming is that players no longer want anything that si not a big reward,they simply want Boss fights and big loot,why i said the rpg aspect is lone gone.

    As soon as i saw why people were login to the guild and what they were doing then log out again, i knew the game  got shallow at 50 and i promptly left the game.

    Here's the issue with "total randomness" in hardcore raiding  You will have people unsubbing in hordes because FC A) killed the boss before FC B) because they got better mechanics RNG.  Everytime you incorporate RNG into a fight there is an easier and ideal situation versus the other or others. 

    That being said if you paid any attention to their most recent addition final coil, there is a fair amount of RNG present. Take the last phases of t10 and t11 for example.  Both of which are a perfect example of what I said earlier with the easier situation. Ideally in the last phase of t10 you would want to get absolutely no tether/charge combos and just either tether single or charge single.  In t11 ideally you would love for your tanks to get nanospored together every single time along with a pair of dps.  

     

    @Wizardry is giving the standard "pve content is scripted and can't be difficult, it's boring because it's repeatable/scripted". Yawn...you don't like raids? Well go play PvP or something.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • PurutzilPurutzil Member UncommonPosts: 3,048
    It is a big issue, most games don't tend to bridge this gap easily. Wow has done the same issue itself with the new expansion with LFR being a huge joke and normal mode destroying people with the spike of difficulty it brings (which isn't even that much, just its big in comparison).
  • ZenTaoYingYangZenTaoYingYang Member Posts: 354
    I think its the community in the end game not SE per say because as far as I know SE have nerfed coil also added echo buffs. more over, they made normal - hard and extreme mode for primal, so I think they understand the issue. not to mention in the expansion the raid content will have normal and hard mode from the begining and not introduced in patches so this should help.
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