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No true pet class in EQN?

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  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Originally posted by Rydeson

         Boy,, I just can't wait to see how so called pets work in EQN when they get around to having a sample one in beta.. See how  vulnerable they are to take damage, see how low the dps numbers get, etc etc..   Especially the tanking pet.. How does a pet tank in EQN without "taunt" now?  Because there is NO flipping way on this AI world they have the intel to put themselves in a position to block foe from friend, and know WHEN to use that block skill as well..   TAUNT is the ONLY way AI tank pets reliably work, and taunt was removed from the line up..  Now what?   I suspect there will be no tanking pets, and as one poster said, they'll act more like Tera's thralls, which are total jokes..

         Is there a way to send an email to SOE to get them to talk about pets in a round table discussion, instead of how pretty Ogre buildings are?  ROFLMAO  I mean really, the last video they have was 90 minutes LONG of total horse crap BS on players buildings Ogre structures..  They keep saying they want the players to help "BUILD" the game with them, but yet they are lock jawed about what subjects and topics they want input on.. 

    Haha, I agree with you about some of the round table discussions.

     

    There are still plenty of ways a pet could "tank" without an obvious taunt. It could have lots of cc or reduce the amount of damage its owner takes, remove conditions from its owner, generate more threat with its natural attacks, swap positions with owner, charm, etc... There are so many possibilities.

     

    I think the skill system is more relevant to how the pets will turn out than whether combat is "action" or "tab-targeting". With four class skills to play around with from a "deck" or hopefully large pool of different class skills, there should be scope to have a really deep pet system. Also armor/weapon/item upgrades could impact pets, maybe a necromancers "mantle of the vampire" gives pet life drain on basic attacks for example. The possibilities are fairly robust I would say.

     

    In terms of when the pet would take an action, wouldn't be cool if you could program your pet AI like in Dragon Age? More likely though it will just have a set AI with the player being able to activate key skills from the hotbar, which is similar to other games, but if you have four pet specific skills to use that would be pretty deep.

    ....
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,139
    Originally posted by YashaX

    In terms of when the pet would take an action, wouldn't be cool if you could program your pet AI like in Dragon Age? More likely though it will just have a set AI with the player being able to activate key skills from the hotbar, which is similar to other games, but if you have four pet specific skills to use that would be pretty deep.

    While I wouldn't mind a lot of control over pet AI, I agree that it will most likely be preset options of some sort. Would be interesting if they took the typical design a bit further. Such as setting pet to "Aggressive" would open up 4 offensive skills, "Defend" would be 4 CC/Defense skills, "Passive" could be 4 heals/buffs for player/group, etc. So we would decide if a pet is a tank, dps, support, etc instead of a generic pet design. Switching the pets stance/state as combat happens. I know some like pets because of the micromanaging aspect, this would make it more exciting I'm guessing.

    While pets could still have default attacks and what not, I'd prefer players to control them for the most part and make them vital to gameplay instead of just a lump that might happen to act as a dot or meatshield if you send it into combat mindlessly.

    If we could set up combos with our pets with either starting and the other finishing would also take pet classes to a whole new level. Type of combat or aim/target is really not very important, how creative and crazy the devs want to take the game is what it's all about.

  • kurosenshukurosenshu Member UncommonPosts: 49

    Thank God for no annoying pet classes anymore, now, while we're at it let's remove 

    stinking stealth as well, that shit has no place in an action combat game what so ever.

    image

  • reb007reb007 Member UncommonPosts: 613

    OP: Explain why targeting mechanics dictate the plausibility of Artificial Intelligent pets?

     

    Also, are you a programmer?  How much experience do you have writing AI for video games?

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by YashaX

    In terms of when the pet would take an action, wouldn't be cool if you could program your pet AI like in Dragon Age? More likely though it will just have a set AI with the player being able to activate key skills from the hotbar, which is similar to other games, but if you have four pet specific skills to use that would be pretty deep.

     

    If we could set up combos with our pets with either starting and the other finishing would also take pet classes to a whole new level. Type of combat or aim/target is really not very important, how creative and crazy the devs want to take the game is what it's all about.

    Right? I see some awesome possibilities, if you look at how the very first ideas about combat in EQN focus on comboing skills between classes and how combat skills can actually change the environment it doesn't seem too far fetched to imagine that pets will be able to function in similar ways. This is one of the exciting things about EQN imo.

    ....
  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by YashaX
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by YashaX

    In terms of when the pet would take an action, wouldn't be cool if you could program your pet AI like in Dragon Age? More likely though it will just have a set AI with the player being able to activate key skills from the hotbar, which is similar to other games, but if you have four pet specific skills to use that would be pretty deep.

     

    If we could set up combos with our pets with either starting and the other finishing would also take pet classes to a whole new level. Type of combat or aim/target is really not very important, how creative and crazy the devs want to take the game is what it's all about.

    Right? I see some awesome possibilities, if you look at how the very first ideas about combat in EQN focus on comboing skills between classes and how combat skills can actually change the environment it doesn't seem too far fetched to imagine that pets will be able to function in similar ways. This is one of the exciting things about EQN imo.

         You both realize that Dragon Age is a simple player game right?  That the mechanics of how the game is played can NOT transfer into a MMORPG environment.. I'm not talking about the technical aspects of pets being in the game, I'm talking about the practical use of pets in the game..  As we see in Tera, pets aka. thralls are a joke.. I wouldn't even begin to call the mystic in Tera as a pet class..  

         Pets traditionally have role to fulfill, such as tanking, since squishies were unable to take hits.. That has now been removed in more current games.. A caster can now fend for themselves without needing protection, reducing the pet to nothing more then a buff/heal or dps unit..  EQN already said they removed the NEED for a tank / taunt..  Kiss the tanking pet good bye, unless you plan on giving the pet the ability to HOLD agro through some other means like chain "stunning".. But then how is that any different then taunt?  You and your pet would still control the mobs agro..

         As for the pet performing the roles of support and dps, that can ONLY come into play if the pets can survive the fight in the first place..  Just look at Tera to see that Thalls often die quickly.. Why is that?  Because their devs realize as I do, you can NOT allow groups of "pet" class characters control the fight using 3,4 or more pets as survivable dps units..  Even in WoW Blizzard knew to make the the dps pets weak in health and armor for good reason..  I seriously doubt EQN devs will allow a group of Necro's stand back at a safe distance and send in their pets to do all the dirty work and LIVE through it..  I'm sure the pets will die as quick as Thralls, then what?  Necro's will have to fend for themselves, which I'm sure they'll have no problem with, so why even bother with the pet then?   Get the idea.. 

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by YashaX
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by YashaX

    In terms of when the pet would take an action, wouldn't be cool if you could program your pet AI like in Dragon Age? More likely though it will just have a set AI with the player being able to activate key skills from the hotbar, which is similar to other games, but if you have four pet specific skills to use that would be pretty deep.

     

    If we could set up combos with our pets with either starting and the other finishing would also take pet classes to a whole new level. Type of combat or aim/target is really not very important, how creative and crazy the devs want to take the game is what it's all about.

    Right? I see some awesome possibilities, if you look at how the very first ideas about combat in EQN focus on comboing skills between classes and how combat skills can actually change the environment it doesn't seem too far fetched to imagine that pets will be able to function in similar ways. This is one of the exciting things about EQN imo.

         You both realize that Dragon Age is a simple player game right?  That the mechanics of how the game is played can NOT transfer into a MMORPG environment.. I'm not talking about the technical aspects of pets being in the game, I'm talking about the practical use of pets in the game..  As we see in Tera, pets aka. thralls are a joke.. I wouldn't even begin to call the mystic in Tera as a pet class..  

         Pets traditionally have role to fulfill, such as tanking, since squishies were unable to take hits.. That has now been removed in more current games.. A caster can now fend for themselves without needing protection, reducing the pet to nothing more then a buff/heal or dps unit..  EQN already said they removed the NEED for a tank / taunt..  Kiss the tanking pet good bye, unless you plan on giving the pet the ability to HOLD agro through some other means like chain "stunning".. But then how is that any different then taunt?  You and your pet would still control the mobs agro..

         As for the pet performing the roles of support and dps, that can ONLY come into play if the pets can survive the fight in the first place..  Just look at Tera to see that Thalls often die quickly.. Why is that?  Because their devs realize as I do, you can NOT allow groups of "pet" class characters control the fight using 3,4 or more pets as survivable dps units..  Even in WoW Blizzard knew to make the the dps pets weak in health and armor for good reason..  I seriously doubt EQN devs will allow a group of Necro's stand back at a safe distance and send in their pets to do all the dirty work and LIVE through it..  I'm sure the pets will die as quick as Thralls, then what?  Necro's will have to fend for themselves, which I'm sure they'll have no problem with, so why even bother with the pet then?   Get the idea.. 

    The Dragon Age reference was a bit of brainstorming about how pet AI could be implemented in an interesting player-driven way, considering EQN will have story blocks, but like I said I doubt that will be a part of the game.

     

    The rest of my thoughts are basically in line with yours- pet can either dps, support, or tank. A combination of tanking/dps skills could be possible but would naturally make the pet less tanky/ deal less damage. I think EQN's skill/class set up has the potential to make pet gameplay really deep and meaningful since you in theory could slot different skills/loadouts to mould the type of pet playstyle you desire.

    In combination with what we know about skill interaction,cross class synergies, and environmental manipulation there is vast potential for strategic plays with pets to an extent never seen in mmos before.

    ....
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335

    From everything I have seen to date, EQN is not targeted at the current players of EQ or EQ2. They are going for a completely different market. As such all games mechanics will be radically different, including pets.

    I seriously doubt I will be playing EQN. I enjoy the gameplay of EQ and EQ2, I do not enjoy the gameplay in the more modern action MMO's. As such, I will not be playing EQN unless something happens to radically alter my current perception of the games development direction.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1

    From everything I have seen to date, EQN is not targeted at the current players of EQ or EQ2. They are going for a completely different market. As such all games mechanics will be radically different, including pets.

    I seriously doubt I will be playing EQN. I enjoy the gameplay of EQ and EQ2, I do not enjoy the gameplay in the more modern action MMO's. As such, I will not be playing EQN unless something happens to radically alter my current perception of the games development direction.

     

    I think that perception begins and ends with the player. I mean you like what you like, and should play as such to have fun, which should be the point. That said I don't think SoE is trying to exclude anyone. Would it make sense to make a third MMO that plays the same? Not really. They are attempting to bring something different for everyone to enjoy. If they pull off what they intend to and end up with a title that is both fun and engaging I think it will pull people in.

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,139
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1

    From everything I have seen to date, EQN is not targeted at the current players of EQ or EQ2. They are going for a completely different market. As such all games mechanics will be radically different, including pets.

    I seriously doubt I will be playing EQN. I enjoy the gameplay of EQ and EQ2, I do not enjoy the gameplay in the more modern action MMO's. As such, I will not be playing EQN unless something happens to radically alter my current perception of the games development direction.

    If you are only an EQ/EQ2 player, then ya, they aren't going for you specifically. No reason someone can't enjoy EQ and EQN though. I was a big fan of EQ and didn't like EQ2 at all, so wouldn't be the first time for a franchise to not match up likes/dislikes based solely on the name.

    I'm a gamer first, EQ fan second in this case. We can't make ourselves like things we don't, but we can at least try. I've installed and uninstalled many betas/games over the years. Most were misses, but every once in a while a hit comes along.

    I really hope all those doubting EQN for what it is or that they'll like it, give it a try. Being F2P, no real risk. I might hate it myself, but I'm at least going to give it a go.

    If I hadn't tried, I probably would of been playing MUDs for a few years longer instead of jumping into EQ, would of ended up wasting time in EQ (after I lost interest) instead of playing DAoC, then WOW, then.... 

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,139
    Originally posted by Rydeson

         You both realize that Dragon Age is a simple player game right?  That the mechanics of how the game is played can NOT transfer into a MMORPG environment.. I'm not talking about the technical aspects of pets being in the game, I'm talking about the practical use of pets in the game..  As we see in Tera, pets aka. thralls are a joke.. I wouldn't even begin to call the mystic in Tera as a pet class..  

    Haven't actually played DA myself, not a fan of single player games, but I get the idea. I agree that it's specific mechanics wouldn't work, but the idea that a pet could have player defined skills/roles and what not seem very plausible.

         Pets traditionally have role to fulfill, such as tanking, since squishies were unable to take hits.. That has now been removed in more current games.. A caster can now fend for themselves without needing protection, reducing the pet to nothing more then a buff/heal or dps unit..  EQN already said they removed the NEED for a tank / taunt..  Kiss the tanking pet good bye, unless you plan on giving the pet the ability to HOLD agro through some other means like chain "stunning".. But then how is that any different then taunt?  You and your pet would still control the mobs agro..

    I agree that they still have a role and I don't believe "tanking" is out of the question. Might not be a taunting sack of HPs, but it might still be possible through other means. We simply don't know how combat even works to make hard conclusions.

    What happens in other games has no relevance in EQN when it come to specific mechanics we have no clue about. Such as casters fending for themselves. Can they in EQN? 100% of the time vs any type/number of enemies? I've yet to see that info revealed. Although I'm not disagreeing with you and think most/all classes will have some form of self sustaining, but varied depending on their role, dps/hp/armor, etc.

    Even though they've said certain mechanics aren't needed in every situation, they've also clearly said that everything won't work all the time. Regardless if you believe what he says or not, Georgeson said that if you and a buddy try to take on a mob and get destroyed, you'll need to go back and look at the classes, skills, and or number of players needed.

    So while you are free to go 5 Wizards into a Dragons den, doesn't mean you'll succeed or at least not easily. No reason a Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter, Wizard, Rogue wouldn't do better with a more diverse pool of skills and tactics available. At the same time, another challenge might excel with 5 Wizards and suck with the diverse group, where in another game, the trinity was the only option and anything else was playing handicapped.

    They seem to want players to have fun and have options, but not every option will be equal. Compared to some games that have little to no options in many challenges. Waiting around for the perfect class or not being able to play because it is lacking is a bad design and also a big reason we have dungeon finders and super convenient LFG tools in games, which I personally dislike. With 40+ classes, hopefully needing 1 precise build isn't "needed," not to say, one might be strongly sought after.

    A "tanking" pet might not be needed 100% of the time, doesn't mean it wouldn't be useful ever, if not a lot of the time depending on the class design. Like my suggestion above, maybe the "tank" pet has a skill that is needed to combo with the player's to be effective. Like a Pet using a CC skill allows for the player's DPS skill to be twice as effective in a combo. Which would lead to the player using the pet as a "tank" and as a vital part of the class, not just a extra bit of HPs for the mob to eat through before coming after the player. Sending a pet in to take all the risk while I sit safely back chipping away at an enemy is fairly boring to me, I want risk/reward, challenge, and some thought involved.

         As for the pet performing the roles of support and dps, that can ONLY come into play if the pets can survive the fight in the first place..  Just look at Tera to see that Thalls often die quickly.. Why is that?  Because their devs realize as I do, you can NOT allow groups of "pet" class characters control the fight using 3,4 or more pets as survivable dps units..  Even in WoW Blizzard knew to make the the dps pets weak in health and armor for good reason..  I seriously doubt EQN devs will allow a group of Necro's stand back at a safe distance and send in their pets to do all the dirty work and LIVE through it..  I'm sure the pets will die as quick as Thralls, then what?  Necro's will have to fend for themselves, which I'm sure they'll have no problem with, so why even bother with the pet then?   Get the idea.. 

    You seem to really fixate on something and can't look beyond. Thralls are not good pets, okay, lets cross our fingers that SOE doesn't carbon copy a bad "pet" design. Has little to do with action combat and more to do with Tera's class design itself. Just like everyone that goes on about EQN being exactly like GW2, yet they share almost nothing in common and the devs have said multiple times that they aren't making GW2.

    I agree that SOE probably won't make super powerful pets of any role. I've said it before, but I think pet classes should share the power/risk.

    DAoC had a very unique Necromancer class. The player was 100% useless without the pet. If the pet died, pretty much the player was soon to follow. Player was totally safe as long as pet was alive and the players job was to keep pet a live and did all actions through the pet itself. To me, that is a pet class. Player and Pet are dependent on one another. Neither is expendable, or at least not like in typical designs.

    So how could a tank pet survive? Simple, the player keeps them alive. What about a Necro skill that lifetaps enemies and 25% of that damage heals the pet? More DPS you do, the longer pet survives. Or life transfer player health to pet. Every heal keeps pet around longer, but reduces the chance the player will survive if pet dies. Pet heal skill, could cost a lot of resources and or be on a big cool down. Risk losing resources at a critical moment or let pet die and try to survive without them? Balance the risk/reward.

    Many ways this could work, took me 5 seconds to think that up. Not saying EQN will have any of that, but it is all totally doable if the devs so wanted. Not outside the possibilities of the tech, combat type, skill design, etc.

    What about something like WoW's Soul Link (no clue if something better came along). Instead player takes 20% of damage done to pet and then has to lifetap it back. If pet takes too much damage, Necro can't sustain enough DPS to keep either alive.

    Necros could have low dps/health or whatever without a pet, depending on the pet type they summon, they increase in a way. Tank pet increases their dps, Dps pet increases their health. So players decide if they want to take more hits, do more damage, have more XYZ. If pet dies, they drop down to the default sad necro status and are in trouble. Again, pets are important. Then toss in lifetap pet heals or whatever to keep the two as a strong unit.

    They've said there will be long/short term pets. I could see short term "tank" pets that absorb 25% of all incoming damage for X seconds and then poof. Might not be a "tank" exactly, but it is helping mitigate damage and keep the player a live longer. Don't want to get carried away with a million imaginary ideas, but going "Thralls suck so EQN's pets suck," seem fairly short sighted.

     

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