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SoR: BioWare gives the middle finger to the players

DeeweDeewe Member UncommonPosts: 1,980

(edit) BioWare has finally answered to players concerns

 

EricMusco from BioWare:

Hey folks,

Let’s talk a bit about training costs for your characters abilities. One thing has become clear from the player feedback in not only this thread, but since launch: players do not like training costs. It is a situation where every level you will see your hard earned credits go to a holographic Hutt doctor in order to make yourself a bit stronger. We have been talking about this topic internally for quite some time and when you add player feedback to the mix one thing becomes clear… We should make training costs a thing of the past.

Since launch, you have spent millions of credits training skills across your characters. As of our maintenance next week all ability training costs will be completely removed from the game, forever!

What does this mean for you? This means that starting next week, instead of spending your credits on training skills, you can now spend them on literally, anything else you want. Note that this only affects ability training, you will still need to spend credits to training schematics for Crew Skills, etc.

Thank you again for your feedback.

-eric

 

While not perfect as it does not refund players who pre-ordered the game and paid for the training, I guess the gesture is enough to consider the case closed.

 

Wanted to thank everyone who kept things civil and constructive.

See you in game.

D.

 

============ Initial Post ============ 

So I've been enjoying the game for the last year or so, time to move on.

 

Whatever you like the new discipline system or not BioWare is doing something very wrong to his customer base.

EricMusco from BioWare:

Hey folks,

Ok so I have an update on the training/re-training of abilities with the launch of 3.0. With all of the changes that hit with 3.0 to Disciplines, it is intended that there are abilities that need to be trained/re-trained. Here are some of the criteria that could cause this to happen:

  • If an existing ability changed, in name or functionality. This could especially affect Disciplines which used to share an overlapping name and set of abilities, such as Lethality Sniper/Operative.
  • We adjusted at what level you would acquire certain ranks of skills. If you are a character pre-55 you may be training skills at ranks that were previously unavailable.
  • In some cases we moved abilities from the Base Class to the Advanced Class or vice-versa. This technically means you could have to retrain an ability you already had, since it changed where/how you got it.

I had not realized the scope of abilities that would need to be trained or I would have been more proactive in alerting everyone to this prior to 3.0. With this in mind, the need to train/re-train abilities in 3.0 is intended and therefore we are not planning on making any changes at this time. I apologize sincerely for the inconvenience this has caused. 

Thank you for your understanding.

-eric

 

In short characters you had before the version 3.0 Shadow of Revan landed need to retrain some skills and as such you need to pay for them. I.e. Without paying in game money you can't play the game with the usual DPS/Healing/Tanking power and abilities you had at your level.

 

Speaking of unpolished content, depending on your class and specialization the total cost isn't even leveraged and varies from 50k+ to over 300k at level 50. Multiply that by the number of alts you have... not fun at all.

 

Not only that but for example I also had to retrain tier III mount usage that I already unlocked and it's been reported people who bought it with Cartel Coins (real $$$) also had to pay again the skills in game currency.

 

As reference the thread going on SWTOR: clicky

«1345

Comments

  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 7,833
    Sounds a lot like the Guild Wars 2 trait overhaul fiasco.
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,802
    Originally posted by Aeander
    Sounds a lot like the Guild Wars 2 trait overhaul fiasco.

    [mod edit]

    On GW2 people who had unlocked traits on their chars already kept them all - that is the very opposite of what swtor is doing now.

     

    On topic:

    I only have one max level char and as prefered player my max credit limit is 350k.

    My alts are around level 40 but paying for them again will hurt as well.

     

    This change will technically empty my pockets for something I had already paid for.

    Harbinger of Fools
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 7,833
    Originally posted by Dakeru
    Originally posted by Aeander
    Sounds a lot like the Guild Wars 2 trait overhaul fiasco.

    [mod edit]

    On GW2 people who had unlocked traits on their chars already kept them all - that is the very opposite of what swtor is doing now.

     

    [mod edit]

    Also, I'm well aware of that. That doesn't help the alt-happy parts of the game's community who have been continually bashed with added increases in per-character grind requirements. 

  • Kinh021Kinh021 Member UncommonPosts: 30

    I only see threads of people making a huge drama about the skill tree, I found nothing untoward in it. What is the problem of having to re-buy a skill or another? What's so problematic in trying to change the style of gameplay? It is a lot of whining by little. If you're not satisfied, goodbye. Indeed, it is not so difficult to make money or gain experience in the game, okay I'm a subscriber, but if you are free-to-play and play enough to get the most from the game level should take shame in the face and spend something with it . image

  • DeeweDeewe Member UncommonPosts: 1,980
    Originally posted by Kinh021

    I only see threads of people making a huge drama about the skill tree, I found nothing untoward in it. What is the problem of having to re-buy a skill or another? What's so problematic in trying to change the style of gameplay? It is a lot of whining by little. If you're not satisfied, goodbye. Indeed, it is not so difficult to make money or gain experience in the game, okay I'm a subscriber, but if you are free-to-play and play enough to get the most from the game level should take shame in the face and spend something with it . image

    (edit) 

    Topic isn't about the skill tree by themselves but the need to buy skills to be able to play at the level you where before the patch. And that's bad customers retention policy, if you ask.

     

    Then never mentioned F2P.

  • The.agGThe.agG Member Posts: 119

    Some people can't just stop dramatizing over every small thing. It's just a one time thing, who cares?

    And if you have multiple alts at 50+, then each alt can easily have 350K in credits. At the end levels, credits flow in so easily it's not even funny. Heck, when i started i made 300K around lvl 30 from some basic crafting stuff.

    To the OP, please think of the Devs before leaving the game. How will they ever cope with the loss of a freeloader??

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    Originally posted by The.agG

    Some people can't just stop dramatizing over every small thing. It's just a one time thing, who cares?

    And if you have multiple alts at 50+, then each alt can easily have 350K in credits. At the end levels, credits flow in so easily it's not even funny. Heck, when i started i made 300K around lvl 30 from some basic crafting stuff.

    To the OP, please think of the Devs before leaving the game. How will they ever cope with the loss of a freeloader??

    I think I spent about a 100k training skills, where most of them were new ones (a few retrains too), which was something I probably made back an hour into the expansion. Hardly a big deal for a one time thing indeed.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • SiugSiug Member UncommonPosts: 1,257
    So maybe it's time to unite and vocally stop this F2P shit? Crap like this can happen only in cash shop games. Btw, I really liked SWTOR but finally I quit because of cash shop - just cannot stand that garbage in my MMORPG.
  • TinybinaTinybina Member Posts: 2,130

    I already un-subbed... This expansion sounded good, but not only did it screw up a few of my toons it also is a freaking money sink now if you have alts...

    http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=779870

     

    ------------------------------
    You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,686

    So whats Biowares official statement about this...

     

    because since they let you pay again for thise things you allready owned ( even with ingame money) is legally not allowed,maybe if enough people threaten them with legal actions, they will rethink this very bad idea

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,475
    Actually,as I recall,in most EULAs a player technically owns nothing, you are just renting time in their game.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Tasslehoff35Tasslehoff35 Member UncommonPosts: 962

    Yeah nice try op but pretty much everyrhibg you said is either purposely misleading or you just don't know what you are talking about. 

     

    The abilities you had before cost between 2k and 5k once you start leveling up to 60 those abilities get improved beyond what you had at level 55 so add that to your cost is a poor attempt to pass misinformation.  So to claim it cost some abilities you used to have  50k to 300k is a outright lie.  

     

    The mount ability is another outright lie people who paid real money do not have to pay real money again to claim this just shows your agenda and that nobody should take anything you saw as actual facts.  

  • seafirexseafirex Member UncommonPosts: 419
    Another thing to notice is the fact that playing alts is your own decision, and like the other poster said don't add the cost for level 60 in your maths, use only the cost of the top skills you currently add before the patch. Anyway you look at it, you are just crying again and again. It is a free to play game. GG 
  • ButeoRegalisButeoRegalis Member UncommonPosts: 594

    I haven't played in a while, but you used to be able to earn a lot, like A LOT, IIRC 1mil credits, by running the Makeb dailies. Buying again for the skills isn't ideal, but it isn't a big deal.

    However, anything purchased with cartel coins should however stick around. Maybe hit CS up for it.

    Also, no skills should cost more than the F2P cash limit on your account.

    As long as those two items are taken care of I see no problem.

    image

  • Tasslehoff35Tasslehoff35 Member UncommonPosts: 962
    Originally posted by ButeoRegalis

    I haven't played in a while, but you used to be able to earn a lot, like A LOT, IIRC 1mil credits, by running the Makeb dailies. Buying again for the skills isn't ideal, but it isn't a big deal.

    However, anything purchased with cartel coins should however stick around. Maybe hit CS up for it.

    Also, no skills should cost more than the F2P cash limit on your account.

    As long as those two items are taken care of I see no problem.

    They don't everything in the OP is pretty much a straight up lie.  

  • TinybinaTinybina Member Posts: 2,130
    Originally posted by Tasslehoff35
    Originally posted by ButeoRegalis

    I haven't played in a while, but you used to be able to earn a lot, like A LOT, IIRC 1mil credits, by running the Makeb dailies. Buying again for the skills isn't ideal, but it isn't a big deal.

    However, anything purchased with cartel coins should however stick around. Maybe hit CS up for it.

    Also, no skills should cost more than the F2P cash limit on your account.

    As long as those two items are taken care of I see no problem.

    They don't everything in the OP is pretty much a straight up lie.  

     

    Yeah he is a liar... Which is the reason why there is a 23 page thread on the MAIN SWTOR forums about issues he described right?...

     

    Hmmm, wonder who the liar is here... Him and those 23 pages of people posting various stories of having to repay for something or.... 

     

    YOU!

    ------------------------------
    You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith

  • Tasslehoff35Tasslehoff35 Member UncommonPosts: 962
    Originally posted by Tinybina
    Originally posted by Tasslehoff35
    Originally posted by ButeoRegalis

    I haven't played in a while, but you used to be able to earn a lot, like A LOT, IIRC 1mil credits, by running the Makeb dailies. Buying again for the skills isn't ideal, but it isn't a big deal.

    However, anything purchased with cartel coins should however stick around. Maybe hit CS up for it.

    Also, no skills should cost more than the F2P cash limit on your account.

    As long as those two items are taken care of I see no problem.

    They don't everything in the OP is pretty much a straight up lie.  

     

    Yeah he is a liar... Which is the reason why there is a 23 page thread on the MAIN SWTOR forums about issues he described right?...

     

    Hmmm, wonder who the liar is here... Him and those 23 pages of people posting various stories of having to repay for something or.... 

     

    YOU!

     

    There is a thread with 23 pages on this topic. Now if you read that thread you will see the parts I mentioned where he is lying are actually proof the op is lying.  The aveage cost of abilities is 43k the most expensive abilities you have to repurchase is 50k NOT 300k like the op said.  

     

    Also in those 23 pages there isn't ONE post about having to pay real money for an item you already paid real money on that would be another lie.  

     

    [mod edit]

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Tasslehoff35
    Originally posted by Tinybina
    Originally posted by Tasslehoff35
    Originally posted by ButeoRegalis

    I haven't played in a while, but you used to be able to earn a lot, like A LOT, IIRC 1mil credits, by running the Makeb dailies. Buying again for the skills isn't ideal, but it isn't a big deal.

    However, anything purchased with cartel coins should however stick around. Maybe hit CS up for it.

    Also, no skills should cost more than the F2P cash limit on your account.

    As long as those two items are taken care of I see no problem.

    They don't everything in the OP is pretty much a straight up lie.  

     

    Yeah he is a liar... Which is the reason why there is a 23 page thread on the MAIN SWTOR forums about issues he described right?...

     

    Hmmm, wonder who the liar is here... Him and those 23 pages of people posting various stories of having to repay for something or.... 

     

    YOU!

     

    There is a thread with 23 pages on this topic. Now if you read that thread you will see the parts I mentioned where he is lying are actually proof the op is lying.  The aveage cost of abilities is 43k the most expensive abilities you have to repurchase is 50k NOT 300k like the op said.  

     

    Also in those 23 pages there isn't ONE post about having to pay real money for an item you already paid real money on that would be another lie.  

     

    [mod edit]

    Buying multiple skills at an average of 43k, wouldn't take you long to hit 300k in spending.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Tasslehoff35Tasslehoff35 Member UncommonPosts: 962
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Tasslehoff35
    Originally posted by Tinybina
    Originally posted by Tasslehoff35
    Originally posted by ButeoRegalis

    I haven't played in a while, but you used to be able to earn a lot, like A LOT, IIRC 1mil credits, by running the Makeb dailies. Buying again for the skills isn't ideal, but it isn't a big deal.

    However, anything purchased with cartel coins should however stick around. Maybe hit CS up for it.

    Also, no skills should cost more than the F2P cash limit on your account.

    As long as those two items are taken care of I see no problem.

    They don't everything in the OP is pretty much a straight up lie.  

     

    Yeah he is a liar... Which is the reason why there is a 23 page thread on the MAIN SWTOR forums about issues he described right?...

     

    Hmmm, wonder who the liar is here... Him and those 23 pages of people posting various stories of having to repay for something or.... 

     

    YOU!

     

    There is a thread with 23 pages on this topic. Now if you read that thread you will see the parts I mentioned where he is lying are actually proof the op is lying.  The aveage cost of abilities is 43k the most expensive abilities you have to repurchase is 50k NOT 300k like the op said.  

     

    Also in those 23 pages there isn't ONE post about having to pay real money for an item you already paid real money on that would be another lie.  

     

    [mod edit]

    Buying multiple skills at an average of 43k, wouldn't take you long to hit 300k in spending.

     

    Go read the OP he said ONE skill you have to repurchase cost 300k. Not the total amount. And if you actually played Swtor you would know anytime they put a credit sink in people cry on the forums. I believe the 50 million for a guild ship hit 50 pages in two days...it got released people paid it and nobody cried again. Same will happen with this. I've never been part of community (the forums are a very small percentage of the actual community) that's loves their ingame currency so much.
  • hikaru77hikaru77 Member UncommonPosts: 1,123
    Originally posted by Tinybina

    I already un-subbed... This expansion sounded good, but not only did it screw up a few of my toons it also is a freaking money sink now if you have alts...

    http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=779870

     

    It was the same with RohC, i remember the forums full of people complaining about this. A few weeks later, it wasnt even a problem. 

     

     

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Tasslehoff35
     

     

    Go read the OP he said ONE skill you have to repurchase cost 300k. Not the total amount. And if you actually played Swtor you would know anytime they put a credit sink in people cry on the forums. I believe the 50 million for a guild ship hit 50 pages in two days...it got released people paid it and nobody cried again. Same will happen with this. I've never been part of community (the forums are a very small percentage of the actual community) that's loves their ingame currency so much.

    I do play TOR... It's my second favorite MMO right now. Doesn't mean I can't see this as being handled poorly. Their oversight is at our (the players) expense.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Tasslehoff35
     

     

    Go read the OP he said ONE skill you have to repurchase cost 300k. Not the total amount. And if you actually played Swtor you would know anytime they put a credit sink in people cry on the forums. I believe the 50 million for a guild ship hit 50 pages in two days...it got released people paid it and nobody cried again. Same will happen with this. I've never been part of community (the forums are a very small percentage of the actual community) that's loves their ingame currency so much.

    I do play TOR... It's my second favorite MMO right now. Doesn't mean I can't see this as being handled poorly. Their oversight is at our (the players) expense.

    Agreed, this situation comes up in WoW once in a while and you actually respec for free. That should be how it works, it shouldn't be a money sink. I haven't played since RotHC, but if people are losing things they already paid for (especially those who paid through the cash shop) then that's pretty piss poor. I would expect it to be fixed and, if not, then it could be a customer-retention issue for them. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • AnirethAnireth Member UncommonPosts: 940

    I never played SWTOR and probably never will, so no idea whether retraining the skills is pocket change or a lifetime investment.

    But: Retraining should always be free when it's due to the developer changing skills.

    And that you have to retrain because a skill changed it's name..

    Some said it's no problem to get enough money to retrain them all, but unless it really is on the low side of what you get by just levelling and maybe selling the generic loot you found and stuff like that, there will be lots of people who will struggle. There always are people who make it seem like money does grow on trees, but there will also be those that no matter what they do, they are always short. No nice loot, selling what they got below value because nobody is paying anywhere close to it etc.. Some people may have scraped all their money to train them in the first place.

    Even Neverwinter managed to avoid the worst fiasco each time they overhauled a class, by resetting skills for you so you did not have to pay for it (even if i had prefered a reset token, so i can decide whether i want to reset them or not and actually test the changes before committing myself).

    Is the economy so bad that they need a quick gold sink? Or can you turn real money into ingame money so they can generate a short term spike in profits? Heck, even if it's neither, it's clearly badly managed.

    I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
    And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
    Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
    And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Originally posted by The.agG

    To the OP, please think of the Devs before leaving the game. How will they ever cope with the loss of a freeloader??

    To me this is - essentially - about adding grind; doesn't bother me but I started back when grind was the norm. However these changes were either deliberate, to make people grind, or the impact was not thought through or it was and they decided not to tell people. 

    And it may impact customer retention.

    Which could impact revenue. You talk about freeloaders - not really the key point - but did you read the thread about EA's recent results. f2p revenue was up on last year but would have been higher if not for some games doing less well. $62M less well primarily due to SWTOR and SimCity. 

    We don't know whether SWTOR dropped $10M or $50M but a $15M drop would be the equivalent of losing 330k subscribers; a $45M drop the equivalent of 1M subs. 

    Which is why customer retention matters. Or are you going to step in and pick up the slack? Or do you still believe that there is no slack - as they are only freeloaders?

     

    Like I say this is a case of adding grind. And it impacts subscribers as well as f2p folk. It will impact f2p and preferred more than subscribers but everyone is impacted. And not everyone will want to do the added grind. And some will leave meaning less revenue.

     

     

  • Tasslehoff35Tasslehoff35 Member UncommonPosts: 962
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Tasslehoff35
     

     

    Go read the OP he said ONE skill you have to repurchase cost 300k. Not the total amount. And if you actually played Swtor you would know anytime they put a credit sink in people cry on the forums. I believe the 50 million for a guild ship hit 50 pages in two days...it got released people paid it and nobody cried again. Same will happen with this. I've never been part of community (the forums are a very small percentage of the actual community) that's loves their ingame currency so much.

    I do play TOR... It's my second favorite MMO right now. Doesn't mean I can't see this as being handled poorly. Their oversight is at our (the players) expense.

    Well in that 23 pages Eric states "it's working as intended". You have been paying for abilities since day one.  Sure it sucks you have to spend some credits on abilities you already knew but the exaggeration, misinformation that is being passed (op) is laughable.  Again anytime they make players spend their credits the "forum" community gets all excited.  This is nothing new and will pass just like every other time it's happen.  

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