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How big is the permadeath ultra hate is? PART 3

2

Comments

  • kikoodutroa8kikoodutroa8 Member RarePosts: 558

    Permadeath is fine if it fits the game.

    With most mmos relying on raids where you'll wipe countless times before seeing any progress, it just wouldn't fit in at all. Oh and before that one have to spend hours grinding lvls & decent gear.

     

    If mmos offered a different kind of progression, then permadeath could be envisaged.

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,276

    If you have a game with permadeath, that means the game has no persistent value accumulation.

    Meaning you will play this game a couple times - then move on.

    Even if you would play the game for a longer time, you would still not have anything to show for. All your progress is gone again after the next permadeath.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • BoneserinoBoneserino Member UncommonPosts: 1,764

    Permadeath is a joke!

     

    How is it permadeath if you can come back and start a new character?    If you are a test pilot and you die, do you get resurrected  as a child with your memory intact and get to remember what you did the first time, or the third time, or the 50 th time??

     

    No!  That is "Edge of  Tomorrow" shit.   We fucked up, lets try again tomorrow. And the next day. And so on.

     

    Man up!!  You die, that's it! 

     

    Game over.

     

    Pussies!

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • exdeathbrexdeathbr Member UncommonPosts: 137
    Originally posted by Boneserino

      If you are a test pilot and you die, do you get resurrected  as a child with your memory intact and get to remember what you did the first time, or the third time, or the 50 th time??

     

     

    Nope but other others test pilots dont just because he died.

    Permadeath is not ressurection, the new char is a new person.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910

    I've seen lots of threads with people who don't like permadeath, think it's a stupid mechanic, etc.  I've never seen anyone say that permadeath games should be banned or not made.  That just seems like an odd point of view.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • rochristrochrist Member UncommonPosts: 133
    I don't give a shit if someone wants to play a game with permadeath. It just won't be me. Ever. 
  • The issue of permadeath is so intrinsically linked to the way the game plays that any discussion of it in isolation is stupid an pointless.

     

    Is the game decently fun to replay? No?  Then permadeath sucks for it.

    Is the game really poorly balanced? Yes?  Then permadeath will appear really unfair and stupid.

    Does the game have  huge time investment per character? The longer the time investment the harder permadeath is to justify without reducing how often you are threatened for real.  Without being threatened for real fairly regularly games become boring grinds (sound familar MMO players?) even with the sword of damocles of permadeath hanging over your head many roguelikes have fallen prey to this problem (especially some angband flavors).

     

     

    Many games simply suck with permadeath added in because of issues such as the above (which is not an exhaustive list).  Some people advocate for "spicing up" a game with permadeath due to the boring nature and lack of real threat in many games, but for many people the whole exercise seems silly because the first two issues are never addressed.

     

    There is nothing wrong with permadeath (although I prefer a small number of limited lives personally) some games work out fine with it.  The problem is people advocating to shoe horn it into games when other aspects of the design make it awkward or just plain unenjoyable.  Games like Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup work fine with permadeath.  In fact the tournaments they hold after a release make little sense without permadeath(or a small set of limited lives).

     

    Especailly in the case of MMORPG many design themes are in direct opposition to permadeath.  Replayability and character investment are huge considerations for permadeath.  If you have to farm for 2 days to get some rare drop permadeath is almost certainly a not gonna work out.  Permadeath almost always need to have a gameplay theme of "make the most of what you get".  Most MMORPGs work on a gameplay theme of "spend a lot of time to get the perfect set of stuff (items, stats, etc)".

     

    If you want to play game where things are emergent and you have an idea that you need to play the situtations you are presented with then a permadeath game almost always presents this better.  If you want to instead develop your character stats/build so that it can deal with any situation instead of playing the situation with your character, then that usually is more in the vein of a non-permadeath game.  This can happen in the grindy MMO way or it can happen via save games and going back to early ones to replay a branch until it optimal.

     

    In the end permadeath is simply a way to make the gameplay not revolve around optimality and instead be more about results.  When you consider it, this is why its such a bad design choice for most current MMOs.  This does not means it is a bad design choice for an MMORPG.  In fact for the right MMORPG design it is probably a good choice.  I think an MMORPG that focused on replayability and progressing to a certain laudable point in the game via good gameplay rather than good equipment can be quite successful.  But this is not the current milieu of the genre.

     

    You can see this in discussions of gameplay in roguelikes such as TOME 4 vs DCSS.  They are quite different games.  But in TOME 4 there is much more discussion about optimal builds and equipment setups.  In DCSS there can be all of these things, but due to the way that games works out, you can never depend on getting any of that stuff so worrying about optimal builds becomes pointless.  Although both games are Roguelikes and therefore have a permadeath component (optional in one game), permadeath is much less of a sore thumb in DCSS (even though TOME 1 was a straight up Angband variant and therefore rather old school roguelike).  In DCSS it is about the playthrough, not the build you started with.  It is about the experience.  TOME 4 has this as well since its procedural etc, but you are definitely playing your build as well and are guaranteed many things that are key to your build.  In TOME 4 you are also very much playing your class.  This does not mean DCSS is a superior game, they are quite different games.  The point is the mentality of a playthrough is different and one mentality has a better fit with permadeath than the other.  In the case of DCSS permadeath is not so much a gameplay detrimant or enhancer;  it is simply part of the game's nature.  TOME 4 is perfectly playable in roguelike but there is really very little effective difference between roguelike (1 life) and adventure (7 lives) when you plan ahead and understand the class you play.  But in DCSS there would be, because while you may know of 3 or 4 tactics to deal with an Ogre hiding behind a corner on level 3, there is no way to know WHICH one you have in any particular playthrough.  This is the fundamental dividing line.  And yeah sometimes in these cases you get screwed, that is the nature of the beast. 

     

    For permadeath you need to usually have some way out if you are good/smart, and you need to have emergent ways  for gameplay to develop such that you don't actually solidly know which way may becomes available. 

     

     

  • Dexter2010Dexter2010 Member UncommonPosts: 244
    Originally posted by exdeathbr

     

    ...I made 2 threads with polls before, ...

     

    Is a 3rd thread really necessary? You must be from FC. Stop trying to push TOA, no one wants shitty shit or likely scams.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,910

    Why would anyone ask for the concept of permadeath to be "banned" from game design ? There are many types of game features that don't appeal to me, but I don't go around calling for them to be banned from games, lol

     

    I'd never play an MMO with permadeath, unless it's a KOS arena game like DayZ or Rust, where you know your life is measured in days, not months.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,909
    Originally posted by exdeathbr
    Originally posted by Iselin

    This tiny peripheral "issue" that exists mostly in the mind of the OP required 3 parts? Really?

     

     

    Its not mostly in my mind, people complain about permadeath (as in "baning it") alot on those threads.

     

    I have never seen anyone say they want to ban it... and if someone does say that I'll just dismiss him as fascist whack job.

     

    This is why I say it's mostly in your mind... no one wants to ban it but not many want it either.

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • BurntCabbageBurntCabbage Member UncommonPosts: 482
    i dont mind perma-death as long as the pve isnt stoopid hard and the pvp being harder ...the perma-death pvp is fun and gives a sense of danger / fun for me
  • exdeathbrexdeathbr Member UncommonPosts: 137
    Originally posted by Dexter2010
    Originally posted by exdeathbr

     

    ...I made 2 threads with polls before, ...

     

    Is a 3rd thread really necessary? You must be from FC. Stop trying to push TOA, no one wants shitty shit or likely scams.

    What is FC??? A Football Club?

    Is Toa a Soccer Team?

  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,300
    It is not hate to dislike a certain game mechanic. I don't care for it myself, so will avoid games that employ it. No hate. No animosity to those that do like it. No burning need to talk others out of it. Etc, etc.

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,096

    I grew up on Hardcore mode(Diablo ofc) and GW1 survivor title. I also realise that they are two various psychological approaches to rewards(negative vs positive psych.-which one do I prefer? Hell if I know!). With that all said:

    I am all for challenging content(really games nowadays are too easy, but that's neither here nor there), but I am against these permadeath features. Sure, if some people wish to follow it, let them. Hell, I myself tend to play games just like you outlined in OP(if a game's boring otherwise/I want a challenge that is absent otherwise). But this type of behaviour shouldn't be forced. Nothing should ever be forced.

    Challenging content >> optional hardcore mode > optional softcore mode > easy content >>> forced anything

    Hell, if swtor was as difficult as GW1 tended to be(at times!), it'd be my most beloved game of this gen. Sadly, devs are turnoing towards easy, not difficult. And ultra easy "plays by itself" games perhaps will attract audience, but they most certainly will have a low retention rate. If only the bean counters understood this... ;( ;(

    EDIT: How about this assumption: "Most of requests for permadeath/hardcore mode are because of the state of difficulty of modern games" ?

  • BoneserinoBoneserino Member UncommonPosts: 1,764
    Originally posted by exdeathbr
    Originally posted by Boneserino

      If you are a test pilot and you die, do you get resurrected  as a child with your memory intact and get to remember what you did the first time, or the third time, or the 50 th time??

     

     

    Nope but other others test pilots dont just because he died.

    Permadeath is not ressurection, the new char is a new person.

    Hmm but it is it really?

     

    To me that is more like,  " Go back to the beginning and start again, death "  More like the movie thing.   You just keep doing the same stuff over and over until you get it right or you give up trying.

     

    And really, is that a fun mechanic?   Forced to repeat things over and over until you finally succeed?  It did not seem like Cruise was enjoying it in the movie.   In fact he just wanted it all to end.   Its the same with fighting a tough boss.   You die, you resurrect, you come back and try again.     But with Permadeath,  it just forces you to do all the same stuff you succeeded at ....AGAIN!!

     

    Which is why people say, just delete your character.   It truly isn't any different.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,578
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by exdeathbr
    Originally posted by Iselin

    This tiny peripheral "issue" that exists mostly in the mind of the OP required 3 parts? Really?

     

     

    Its not mostly in my mind, people complain about permadeath (as in "baning it") alot on those threads.

     

    I have never seen anyone say they want to ban it... and if someone does say that I'll just dismiss him as fascist whack job.

     

    This is why I say it's mostly in your mind... no one wants to ban it but not many want it either.

    Yeah, It's not actually a mechanic prevalent in MMOs. Mind you, can't wait for part 4. :)

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  • DauzqulDauzqul Member RarePosts: 1,980

    Perma-death is just a horrid idea.

    The first thing I always do in a new MMO is see how far I can get without dying. Do you know what the first thing that usually frags me is? Some sort of server hiccup, latency issue, or computer crash.

     

    There are too many outside sources that can destroy the perma-death gameplay.

     

     

    I would entertain a time-death, though, e.g., when you die, you cannot spawn for 24 hours.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,771
    Originally posted by Gorwe

    EDIT: How about this assumption: "Most of requests for permadeath/hardcore mode are because of the state of difficulty of modern games" ?

    Nah .. D3 has a hardcore mode, and it was notoriously difficult when it first released (inferno difficulty). And even now, after they put in a difficulty slider, there are plenty of challenges (at high grift levels).

     

  • exdeathbrexdeathbr Member UncommonPosts: 137
    Originally posted by immodium
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by exdeathbr
    Originally posted by Iselin

    This tiny peripheral "issue" that exists mostly in the mind of the OP required 3 parts? Really?

     

     

    Its not mostly in my mind, people complain about permadeath (as in "baning it") alot on those threads.

     

    I have never seen anyone say they want to ban it... and if someone does say that I'll just dismiss him as fascist whack job.

     

    This is why I say it's mostly in your mind... no one wants to ban it but not many want it either.

    Yeah, It's not actually a mechanic prevalent in MMOs. Mind you, can't wait for part 4. :)

    There will be no part 4, this is already the least amount of "sort of permadeath" a mmorpg game can have.

    This idea I propose here on this part 3, could happen on a usual mmorpgs already developed, like wow, the mmorpg just need to allow the player to delete his char.

     

    Also based on 31 votes, only 3 guys voted to "ban" (the right word here would be complain, since there is nothing they can do about it, unless maybe complain with the developers to not allow people to delete their chars). This amount of haters is already sort of really low, and almost hater proof.

     

  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 6,826

    I'm confused:

    If Server B is 100% like Server A (not 99.99995%, but 100%), then how does permadeath affect anything on Server B?

    Your character Johnny Appleseed Dies on Server A. He reappears on Server B, which has all the same NPCs, same places, same PCs, same quest progress, same inventory... everything is the same.

    So what happened when Johnny Appleseed died?

    I assume you intended to segregate the player population, but if you did that, then your friends list/guild/clan/whatever would have just got destroyed and those players would no longer be in your version of the game - and then your down to 99.9995% identical and not 100% identical.

    I'm not wholly against permadeath, but I think in an MMO, where people can invest months/years of time and a lot of that is in community-building, it makes for a poor idea in general unless it has some careful implementation.

  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,096
    Yeah narius, that wasn't what I meant. Like at all. That sentence should've been read as:

    "People request permadeath in modern games that currently don't have such an option because they are bored beyond belief because of the lack of challenge in said games"

    With which I'd have to, sadly, agree. Games nowadays are made with the least common denominator in mind and hence suffer greatly because of it. Challenge is rarely present and if it is, it is in gear check mode. :/
  • GuukabGuukab Member Posts: 1

    The proposed question in the OP doesn't make any logical sense to begin with. Everyone deletes characters, not just people who die and want to hardcore permadeath. So then everyone who ever deletes a character for any reason will be banned because permadeath isnt allowed. For that matter, who plays a game without permadeath and then uses makeshift permadeath when there are games with permadeath? Who cares that they would to begin with? It doesn't impact them at all. I don't understand what your proposed question is supposed to reveal about the psyche of gamers, but your question is broken to begin with. Also, deleting a character isn't permadeath.. it's deleting a character.

    All you need to know about any game mechanic is that some people will like it and some people will hate it. The more people like a mechanic the more it will be put in games. Regardless of whether the people who like it are 5 years old or 50, regardless of whether they are idiots or geniuses and regardless of whether the mechanic is good or bad. Very few devs make games(or are allowed to make games) how they want to anymore. It's all about that $$$.  That's why every game you've played in the past 6 years has had a cash shop or 30$+ worth of DLC even though everyone hates it.

    On the topic of permadeath, not many people like it. They aren't wrong for disliking it. They are wrong for saying it should never exist because THEY want to play a game regardless of what people who like permadeath want, but they aren't wrong for disliking it or making valid arguments against why it shouldn't be in ____ game. I like games with and without permadeath. Totally depends on the genre. I wouldn't play a themepark with permadeath. I wouldn't play a sandbox without it.

  • exdeathbrexdeathbr Member UncommonPosts: 137
    Originally posted by Ridelynn

    I'm confused:

    If Server B is 100% like Server A (not 99.99995%, but 100%), then how does permadeath affect anything on Server B?

     

    Thats the point, the server B wouldnt affect server A, yet people voted to "ban" this idea because it had permadeath (only on permadeath servers).

     

    Originally posted by Ridelynn

     

    Your character Johnny Appleseed Dies on Server A. He reappears on Server B, which has all the same NPCs, same places, same PCs, same quest progress, same inventory... everything is the same.

    When he dies on the permadeath server his char is just deleted, he doenst go to non permadeath server.

    You are confusing the idea of part 2, with the idea of part 1 (the char start in a world A with permadeath, and when die, go to the world B 100% similar to world A but without permadeath, the part 1 idea also dont have stat loss, skill loss or item loss, so you can just).

     

     

    Originally posted by Ridelynn

     

    Your character Johnny Appleseed Dies on Server A. He reappears on Server B, which has all the same NPCs, same places, same PCs, same quest progress, same inventory... everything is the same.

    So what happened when Johnny Appleseed died?

    I assume you intended to segregate the player population, but if you did that, then your friends list/guild/clan/whatever would have just got destroyed and those players would no longer be in your version of the game - and then your down to 99.9995% identical and not 100% identical.

    I'm not wholly against permadeath, but I think in an MMO, where people can invest months/years of time and a lot of that is in community-building, it makes for a poor idea in general unless it has some careful implementation.

    If you like permadeath and is on WORLD A, and die (and so go to WORLD B), you would problably delete your char and start again to go to WORLD A to play a permadeath game.

  • exdeathbrexdeathbr Member UncommonPosts: 137
    Originally posted by Guukab

    Also, deleting a character isn't permadeath.. it's deleting a character.

     

    Say that to some permadeath haters here.

    Also thats the point, this thread was to see if they would want to "ban" even this idea that is not permadeath.

    People usually complain about permadeath saying that game with it shouldnt be made, no matter what game idea is proposed, or if they will play the game.

    Originally posted by Guukab

    So then everyone who ever deletes a character for any reason will be banned because permadeath isnt allowed. 

    When I use the word ban here, I am not talking about deleting characters. But about people complaining about the guys that would delete their chars, saying they shouldnt delete their chars to sort of play a permadeath game, they should keep their character and play a non permadeath like almost everyone else.

     

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    Perma death can work (Look at DayZ), but only in games where it is very fast to make a competitive character so the cost of death minimal.
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