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XIV discussion
kokujinjrocker
Member Posts: 23
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/202070-Yoshi-Team-need-to-man-any-future-FF-Onlines/page4
Good thread over at lodestone forums. You can tell people are afraid to speak out on the game design, even the mods change thread titles to discourgage anyone to speak out.
What gets me is that people that don't like the game still play it.
I mean I may come on here and rant about how shitty the game is every few months, like im doing now, but no way will I give SE my money for that game.
Some really good posts...
Originally Posted by Zarzak 
The problem is every game has followed the WoW solo cookie cutter model for the past 10 years. They would rather attract game purchases and 3 month subs then watch it burn to the ground and start something new. Then provide a quality game that will last 15+ years like the old QUALITY MMOs have.
Modern MMOs have no retention rate.
FFXIV follows the same style as WoW and has been successful doing so, but they could have built on 1.0 instead of copying WoW.
They were going in the right direction with 1.0 before shutting it down to follow the WoW clone crowd. I'm not a fan of Yoshi P at all.
you can actually see that FF XI had a base that was built for actually expanding content instead of cycling it. Rise of the Zilart, Chains of Promathia, Treasures of Aht Urghan, even the base game updates - until Abyssea and Adoulin none of the content was suddenly "invalidated" by a more recent addition. Content was supplemented rather than replaced which is why that content was lasting. That is not the case in XIV and so far they are showing nothing that would imply they are breaking free of that model. There is absolutely no reason to go back to content in this game aside from the game forcing you do it (Or through really thinly veiled "quests" like the entire Relic ugprade where you're constantly doing content that was relevant about one year ago now).
This isn't FF XI, it's not going to be FF XI, but that doesn't mean they can't at least learn some lessons from FF XI when designing content.
Sigh, SE could've made a masterpiece by upgrading FFXI. They would've changed the tide of mmos, as many companies like to copy whats successful, but they themselves only joined in to copy.
Comments
The thing with FFXIV is that you have to go in knowing it's follows the WoW Theme Park model so you don't get super angry. Believe me, I too agree that this game could have been so much better if they just built on 1.0, hell I think it might have been me you quoted in your opening post.
I know it's just a Gear grind Theme Park MMO, but it doesn't stop me from casualy playing it until EQN or some other MMO that fits the style of MMO I like. I'm basically just killing some time.
What else you going to do at endgame? RPGs are about character progression.... gear is a form of progression.
FFXIV is the best mmo on the market currently.
Horizontal progression is a joke... look at GW2... end game is a laughing stock. People want to better their character... achievements are crap.
EQ was the best endgame ever, and it had both gear grind and AA's... causals could AA and hardcore could AA and gear grind.
How is GW2 horizontal progression, it has levels, you progress vertically through levels. You progress your armor vertically through tiers. It is not horizontal progression, it your typical vertical progression gear grind MMORPG.
Except for the ones that are still alive and kicking. Which is almost all of them, and 2nd on that list is the very game you are bashing here.
FFXIV is a great game, if you don't like it, why can't you just leave it alone?
I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
Hurt - Wars
I don't understand.
Ok, you don't care for the game. That's fine, not every game caters to every player.
Or is it that you think the devs are censoring/downplaying criticism? That could be an issue, but from what I've seen, the current Dev staff are pretty open and communicate with the player base very well - I won't say it's never happened, but I don't see a lot of evidence of censorship.
Or is it that you don't believe the game is living up to it's full potential? I agree with that, but it's under active development and new stuff comes out all the time - some of it is cookie cutter, some of it isn't, and the game is evolving. Could it be better? Absolutely, but what game couldn't. Is it getting better is the more important question, and I believe the answer to that question is Yes, but for some people it could go a bit faster than others. 3.0 will be a big milestone for them.
Or is it that you are bitter that it feels like Yet-Another-WoW-Clone? It has a lot of WoW characteristics, but I wouldn't call it an outright clone. Yes, it's a theme park, but I wouldn't make the mistake of calling every theme park a WoW clone.
Or are you bitter that FFXIV isn't FFXI 2.0? I admit, with FFXIV 1.0 first came out, I that was more or less what I was expecting, and when I saw what actually shipped, I was heartbroken. ARR is it's own animal though, and i think for better or worse that is better than just doing XI 2.0.
Or do you not agree with Yoshi-P's direction in general? Not everyone will. I don't agree with all the decisions that have been made and all the directions that the game is going in, but overall I do have fun playing, and in the end that's all that matters to me.
Or are we just venting in this post about a bunch of stuff all John Madden'ed together as to why you are disappointed in FFXIV? If you don't like it, and don't pay for it, then why did you feel the need to write a fairly lengthy post about it? Obviously it's had a big enough influence on you (for better or worse) to at least motivate you enough to write this post and do all the reading on the official forums to find the linked post.
OP doesn't get why some people don't like the game and still play it, even though that still makes more sense than not liking the game and still following it while never actually playing it.
Devoting your precious time & effort towards a game you hate.... Keep up the good work OP.
I don't want to be stuck at one level for the next 7 years, nor do I want to have 15 gear sets to swap between based on what ability I'm using, only for that stuff to be invalidated overnight when the game starts bleeding subscribers.
With that said, I think FFXIV's content cycle and game structure could use some tweaking. 6 months is a bit too quick to obsolesce a set of gear. The battle stuff I don't mind too much, because that's how I feel I progress my character short of them raising the level cap and giving new abilities. It's the crafting and gathering I feel I can't keep up with, but I guess it's maybe SE's intention to not have everyone be able to do everything if you don't have inordinate amounts of time to do so.
The other thing that bothers me is the weekly lockouts on top end raid content. (Coil specifically) It sucks being locked into the same group of 8 people week in and week out and you can't help other people from your FC with content without screwing over 7 other people.
I had a Red Mage /White Mage in FFXI and I enjoyed the game immensely and I got groups all the time. This was when the game launched in US many years ago. I stopped playing a long time ago. I was lucky because my class was in huge demand. I had a friend who played a dragoon and was constantly hanging around doing nothing just waiting in Jueno I think the place was called for groups. If I and a my white mage friend were not about she was basically sol. Not a good way to design your game making people stand about waiting for a group for hours.
FFXIV has indeed learnt from the mistakes of FFXI
FFXI =stockholm syndrome without a doubt.
I did enjoy FFXI while playing it, but thinking about it now I do not believe the things I did in that game from camping 9 hour straight for 1min windows (just so someone that has better latency claim nidhogg aspi , KB etc) to Fighting AV for more than 12 hours just so we end up failing and deleveling to lv71.
I never want to go back to that era
this is what i remember from FFXI:
1) 1 new skill every 10 levels, each level requires like a year of pure grind to level up.
2) want to play a DPS? LOL, yeah GTFO
3) mindlessly grind pugil for 10 levels so you can start mindlessly grinding a new kind of pugil with different name but not even reskinned or a different color for the next 10 levels.
4) takes a party of 5 people to defeat one stupid pugil. WHY IS THIS FISH SO STRONK?!?
5) magicked skull RNG
These FFXI fanboys are getting really tiring. The good old days arent coming back, yes we already heard the story over and over. Please move on with your life and preferably on to another forum. Bye.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
They should've built on 1.0? Pure nonsense. That game would've been shut down shortly anyway if they didn't drop the hammer on it. They should've made it based around XI? Nonsense again, people today tend to like games that actually take player micromanagement and not decades of grind.
People fail to understand that the themepark or "WoW" Mold still has room left to evolve today. If you want to use WoW as the grand example, then look carefully at it from classic to now. Completely different titles almost. I can make you a pro/con chart of what I think is better or worse about the modern WoW vs. classic but that's not the point, the point is this formula is nothing more than a temporary mold waiting to be expanded upon. People who believe that because FFXIV:ARR is a themepark that it can't grow are simply incorrect.
You can already see that they're directing their attention towards the games weaknesses at this time. Large open zones coming in heavensward, challenging dungeons in large quantity, multiple new jobs (one without a base class), and freakin airships. There's no doubt in my mind they have more in stock for us such us secondary stat changes, PvP changes, crafting changes, and just changes to the meta in general. What happens if they add team ranked play to wolves den and retune it? SE would have themselves a competitive PVP scene.
I can assure you the FFXIV:ARR that you see 2-3 years from now will still be a themepark game. But a themepark game that has evolved greatly across the board. Whether or not the evolutions will be positive? Time will tell.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
Except not so much. Short-sided response to be sure.
In fact, one of the largest mmo developers around, SoE, disagrees with you wholeheartedly.
I realize it's apples and oranges at this point, but the point is purely conceptual anyway; look at EQN though.
What they're trying to do with that game is to have all of the modern conveniences of newer games without the watered down content/experience that comes along with it.
Whether they are successful or not remains to be seen though, obviously.
The main point I'm getting at here is that there was a great game in FFXI, there was a great game in XIV 1.0. There are still things about both games that are far better than 2.0.
While I'm with everyone on the idea that it's a vast improvement over the previous....it doesn't mean that it is better in EVERY aspect.
Take for example the crafting/economy in 1.0. This was most crafter player-type's wet dream, just poorly executed. The market/wards were horrendous (actually, still ARE...the addition of the market boards fixed it, but the idea is still gawful). The crafting, gathering, and inevitably the gear progression that was tied to it? Golden. Ask any crafter if they are looking for a game with a truly player-driven economy, i can almost guarantee you the answer will be yes. 1.0 had this, even down to the gear repair aspect. 2.0 destroyed that by making the very best thing you could possibly craft still be 20 levels lower than dungeon dropped gear. Now, i'm not saying you should be able to get the best gear in the game only from crafting....but that big of a gap right there destroys the entire idea of player-driven crafting.
This isn't the only example...combat was in dire need of tweaks, but at least you weren't encouraged to try and burn the lord of inferno >.>.
The bigger picture I'm trying to paint here is that there is a market for a game like 1.0 and ffxi, and many people appreciate the attempt at a much deeper and complex set of systems interacting, versus the simplified (easier) way.
My personal opinion on the 'why?" behind a total scrap is simple. After all of the problems the initial launch had, and all of the systems that were broken, and all of the bad publicity that followed the only way they were going to recover as a marketing strategy was to be able to say "This is nothing like the previous iteration". There were several aspects of 1.0 that were quite good, and could have been expounded upon, rather than trashed completely. The situation was what it was though, and I believe that's why we never got a chance to see what an ffxiv without using fire on ifrit was like.
Edit: the Anti-apologists are just as bad as the apologists. I fit into neither category, as I love all of the changes that make leveling up a more fun experience, such as dungeons and bountiful quests VS camp grinding. The difference is I don't forget the aspects that were better either. People on this forum seem to ignore everything about a game when another is better. Is ARR a vast improvement over ffxi and 1.0 overall? Surely. Does that mean it's better on every single level and that xi, and 1.0 didn't have great ideas that could have been utlilized? absolutely not.
It's not better for every single individual out there.
All the changes are grounded in massive amounts of market research and evolved game design through trial and error. None of what was in 1.0 could have been utilized without it affecting some other system in the complex material and social structure that is an MMORPG. There simply is no future for XI nor 1.0. The sooner the apologists move on the better.
Nothing is ever going to be better for every single individual out there. By that same thought process mmo's should have stopped with WoW. "No reason to change anything, we've found the perfect formula"
Exactly, so saying ARR isn't better on every single level is saying what everyone already knows; a pointless statement if there ever was one. It doesn't suddenly mean any dev should take anything from 1.0 or FFXI and use it in their game, just because there is a hypothetical gamer or two that like it.
It's not going to happen and the reasons for ARR not following in the footsteps of 1.0 and XI are grounded in reality. What you're saying, then, is completely pointless.
Um...what?
I don't know what you thought I was going for....but you got it wrong.
I was just providing a counter-point to the idea that previous iterations were devoid of anything better than ARR, which seems to be the anti-apologist answer to everything.
Someone could post a thread here saying something along the lines of "Combat doesn't seem as fun as ffxi" and suddenly everyone's response is "Oh you wanna go back to taking months of casual play time to hit the level cap and camping NMs for years?" Uh....nobody said that.
As bad as the apologists are, the anti-apologists are just as closed-minded.
Every time I see a thread that focuses on "WoW clones suck", I just assume that the OP and posters don't understand big numbers.
I mean if they did maybe they would have the cash to build their "amazing" game themselves.
Seriously folks, investors want returns. Investors provide the cash for development. Investors who often don't play games (how did you think that got the cash to invest). Investors that understand balance sheets.
WoW = 10 years of 7 million subs (conservative estimate) @ $15 a month. I would do the math for ya, but like I said I don't think you understand big numbers.
Yeah, and I'm saying how pointless it is to state something so obvious (with which you even agreed) that doesn't even matter in any shape or form to anyone of any importance. The people that find someting better in the previous iterations are irrelevant no matter how much they want to think otherwise.
To be fair they pretty much had to copy WoW. Square was on the verge of bankruptcy and a WoW clone with better graphics is a surefire way to get some quick cash.
The problem is most gamers think they deserve bankruptcy after the garbage they've been slinging us the past decade. They could learn more from Bravely Default more then anything as that's the only gem I've seen from them in a LONG time.
They didn't even have to find any external funding to develop this game, it's completely funded in-house. A clear sign of SE going bankrupt amirite?
AH, gotcha. Yeah, thats why i just stopped playing mmos period. Maybe one day something will come along and wow me. For now though, simplicity overtook what I felt was great in these games.
Lmfao! This ^
For what it is, FF14 is a great MMO. If you were looking for a next-gen FF11 - then unfortunately that game has not been released yet.
FF14s success is riding on the high-level of polish, FF ambience, and a devoted developer. With that said, my hope is that the expansion will provide a for a more interesting end-game.
I do agree that FF14 1.0 had some stronger ideas behind it, but unfortunately, that effort was fumbled greatly. FF14 2.0 brought us a high quality experience at the cost of delivering some very familiar in terms of scope and reach.