Originally posted by DMKano Originally posted by GiffenOriginally posted by bcbullyThisinstead of
Exactly!It makes me want to vomit what they did to the EQ franchise with the Disney art style.ESOs face is much better, but the painted on armor -no thanks
Then again EQNs over exaggerated armor is not appealing to me.
Originally posted by bcbullyThisinstead of Exactly!It makes me want to vomit what they did to the EQ franchise with the Disney art style.ESOs face is much better, but the painted on armor -no thanks Then again EQNs over exaggerated armor is not appealing to me.
This IMO looked better than anything after the revamp.
Those examples (and others mentioned) are still stylized and not realistic imo.The common thing here is most of these examples are low fantasy with en emphasis on mature content such as blood splatter ect.If you look at landmark currently The environments match much of the examples but where they differ is in the faces of the avatars.
About as realistic as you can get
Stylized
The EQN style can work, it's not bad, but it will be an uphill battle from the start to win over those who prefer a realistic look.
For comparison (even tho EQNL is at night)
Similar overall style and from that perspective the avatar is almost identical.
Armor is as detailed as what you posted, Its just not as low fantasy as yours. What is the most disappointing about eqnl is the "Pastyness" of the characters faces.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Personally I like the art style. Looking at how well WoW has aged over games like EQ1 and EQ2. Or any game that went for a more real look tells me as a gamer that stylized graphics is the best rout for a MMO. Console games not so much as that type of game has a short shelf life.
And the most common complaint about EQ2 is the horrible, plastic outdated models. They where cutting edge realistic when EQ2 launched. Go and download 2 movies, The Incredibles and Polar Express, both are good successful animated movies (when they launched) that was released the same year. Polar Express looks horribly dated nowadays with its realistic looking characters but Incredibles stills looks good.
But the thing is... The entire defense of using this cartoon style of art only applies to the characters.. The world itself is realistic, and to me that is a contradiction in art styles and is visually confusing.. Secondly, soccer mom's might like the cartoony look, but soccer moms do NOT like twitch shooter combat.. Again, more contradiction within SOE as to "who" they are targeting and why?
Have you played Landmark? Not sure where you are seeing anything "realistic". Please point out a screen shot or video that shows how the character models and world don't mesh together.
I agree that soccer moms might not like twitch shooter combat, good thing EQN isn't twitch shooter combat
Although I believe the action/aim style will cut back on who it will appeal to, not so much as going with a totally different art style geared towards mature men. I'm doubting the combat will be what you think where only the most nimble wristed gamers will excel.
Edit:
Characters seem to work with the world just fine in these videos and beyond our personal preferences, I don't know of many mmorpgs that have the same quality at release that EQN had in the early stages with this tech demo.
What is the most disappointing about eqnl is the "Pastyness" of the characters faces.
I think that is what is really getting to people.
Overall the world, armor, skills, bodies aren't too crazy out there or Disney like. It is the faces.
While I believe the LM/EQN faces can and do work for the most part, they could really use some defined lines, age, scars, imperfections, shadowing, etc that we see in most other games. Basically give the characters some character when zooming in on the face.
Regardless if they are going for oversized eyes/mouth for SOEmote and slightly larger hands/feed to go with the "heroic" design, I think the faces simply need more definition. The cartoonish proportions are needed to make emotions and the "life" of the characters to be easily seen, up close or from a distance. Unlike almost every other game with the blank stare or mouths that barely move.
EQN/LM faces look like someone got a little too happy with the make up kit and removed all the natural look. Not as plastic looking as EQ2, but they can improve quite a lot. My hope is that between now and release they work on them and along with the character creation tools, we can get some more unique looks going on, be it they are more realistic or mature or whatever people are wanting in a video game designed for everyone.
I was hoping Wildstar crashing and burning would give all the cartoony graphics acolytes some pause. I see I was wrong.
While you can't pin all of Wildstar's failure on the graphics there was certainly a large portion of the market that looked at those absurdly over cartooned faces and said: Hell no.
Everyone who has tried to copy WoW has failed, horribly, picking out one aspect of WoW and attributing anything about it's success to that is ridiculous considering that nothing about WoW's success is reproducible.
I believe the most successful mmo to launch in the last 6 years has been FFXIV:ARR which uses significantly more realistic graphics than Wildstar or EQN and will almost certainly be far more successful than either.
And SOEmote will continue to not be used by the vast majority of players. It brings nothing to the table and is a waste of resources.. They dont need it for NPCs and players dont use it in their current games and being slightly more noticeable isnt going to change anything for Landmark or Next. So that brings us all the way back around to the hideous over exaggerated facial features and why they should be changed.
For me, graphics are really important in a video game.
I know it sounds shallow and for a long time I refused to believe I thought this way but I have tried a whole host of mmorpgs since WoW and the 10 year old graphics of most of these games really ruined the immersion factor for me especially as Im used to playing on such better graphics nowadays.
Having said that, Everquest next actually has decent graphics and is good enough for me to play and look at and play without thinking wow these are 10 year old graphics for a super lame pc.
I would like them to be better ofc but I expect bad graphics from mmorpgs as standard so any improvement let alone 1 as big as everquest nexts is a good one.
I wish all mmo rpgs had graphics as good as the division though.
I was hoping Wildstar crashing and burning would give all the cartoony graphics acolytes some pause. I see I was wrong.
While you can't pin all of Wildstar's failure on the graphics there was certainly a large portion of the market that looked at those absurdly over cartooned faces and said: Hell no.
Everyone who has tried to copy WoW has failed, horribly, picking out one aspect of WoW and attributing anything about it's success to that is ridiculous considering that nothing about WoW's success is reproducible.
I believe the most successful mmo to launch in the last 6 years has been FFXIV:ARR which uses significantly more realistic graphics than Wildstar or EQN and will almost certainly be far more successful than either.
Oh yeh wildstar failed for a number of reasons including its terrible identical to wow graphics when people expect more nowadays but everuest next has better graphics than the final fantasy you mention by a mile.
You got to bear in mind you have to look at the actual official released videos to see an example of what eq next will look like and not everquest landmark videos which are in beta and just a building tool.
As for non realistic graphics, I think they are here to stay, people don't have a problem with wow not trying to look realistic but fantasy instead, I doubt they will have a problem with everquest doing the same.
Btw everquest next is not trying to copy wow. its 100% the opposite of wow.
It has ai with motivations which wow doesn't, wow follows the pre programmed ai model with a go here, kill x mobs model.
It has a fully destructible environment so you can fight an enemy, break the floor or a wall and fall into a cave or pull another group, wow has no environment reaction at all.
It has 30 classes at launch and the class system is new. For example you learn classes in game rather than selecting them at the start so you can find a hermit in a swamp to teach you a class bvut afgter he does he wont want to be bothered as he is a hermit so he will move to another area. You don't just use 1 class, you multi class and different weapons have different skill features. This is completely different to the wow tank, dps, healer class system as you can have stuff like a teleporting warrior or a stealth mage etc by misxing classes.
The graphics are actually next gen, you cant see that unless you look at the official videos but some of the official videws sho character and environment features up close which are far beyond wow obviously.
It uses a free running system of travel so you can actually climb and leap over objects.
As for the ai motivations, they have done a storyboard example of who it works, ai factions have motivations and try to conquer each others regions if they succeed, something new happens like in the example when the dark elves manage to invade the dryad woods and set free an ancient evil by mistake the dryads were holding back which then decimated both dark elves and dryads. That's not a programmed routine, that was a super speeded up simulation of the ai working according to its motivations but iff the simulation was run again, it could turn out completely differently.
There is more I want to write but its getting too long.
There are other differences at all but the underlying effect is that its not a wow clone, its not a past gen mmo. its a next gen mmo.
The parsing is at its finest in threads about EQN graphics. The current images are stupid looking, they need to make them less childish and simple.
It's not about what came before, or what will save them money in 2019 because the same shit graphics still look like shit so they don't have to be upgraded.
It's about making the game look as good as some of its design features sound.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Originally posted by Archlyte The parsing is at its finest in threads about EQN graphics. The current images are stupid looking, they need to make them less childish and simple.It's not about what came before, or what will save them money in 2019 because the same shit graphics still look like shit so they don't have to be upgraded. It's about making the game look as good as some of its design features sound.
That's why i started the thread, Provide alternative examples of how it should be.
Just saying its crap and childish doesnt convey what you want it to look like.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
That's why i started the thread, Provide alternative examples of how it should be.
Just saying its crap and childish doesnt convey what you want it to look like.
ArcheAge and ESO have my favorite graphics for MMOs and GW2 was nice as well so like a combination of those games mixed with EQ art style. But they're gonna do what they're gonna do and like the other person said, that cartoony graphic style actually does attract some people (just look at how many adults watch those Pixar movies) plus it makes it so the game can run on a toaster (which I think is the main reason they do it).
That's why i started the thread, Provide alternative examples of how it should be.
Just saying its crap and childish doesnt convey what you want it to look like.
ArcheAge and ESO have my favorite graphics for MMOs and GW2 was nice as well so like a combination of those games mixed with EQ art style. But they're gonna do what they're gonna do and like the other person said, that cartoony graphic style actually does attract some people (just look at how many adults watch those Pixar movies) plus it makes it so the game can run on a toaster (which I think is the main reason they do it).
I was hoping Wildstar crashing and burning would give all the cartoony graphics acolytes some pause. I see I was wrong.
While you can't pin all of Wildstar's failure on the graphics there was certainly a large portion of the market that looked at those absurdly over cartooned faces and said: Hell no.
Everyone who has tried to copy WoW has failed, horribly, picking out one aspect of WoW and attributing anything about it's success to that is ridiculous considering that nothing about WoW's success is reproducible.
I believe the most successful mmo to launch in the last 6 years has been FFXIV:ARR which uses significantly more realistic graphics than Wildstar or EQN and will almost certainly be far more successful than either.
Oh yeh wildstar failed for a number of reasons including its terrible identical to wow graphics when people expect more nowadays but everuest next has better graphics than the final fantasy you mention by a mile.
[snip.]
There are other differences at all but the underlying effect is that its not a wow clone, its not a past gen mmo. its a next gen mmo.
I see my point went over your head, I was referring to people who made the equivocation that because WoW is successful and WoW has cartoony graphics that cartoony graphics make a game successful or are necessary to be successful.
And no EQN's Disney graphics are going to look like garbage next to FFXIV's graphics. The awkward characters that look like they just fell out the latest Dreamworks cartoon are not going to compare to characters that actually look like real people.
Also save yourself some embarrassment and quit talking about "nex gen" people have been saying that about almost every new mmo for the last 6 years and every last person who has talked about it has been wrong.
MMOs can't handle non-stylized graphics, as seen in the Modern Warfare multiplayer lag issues. Developers know this. The only people calling for non-stylized graphics are those trying to exploit the lag for their advantage, or hardware manufacturers trying to use the lag to sell modern gear.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Originally posted by Archlyte The parsing is at its finest in threads about EQN graphics. The current images are stupid looking, they need to make them less childish and simple.
It's not about what came before, or what will save them money in 2019 because the same shit graphics still look like shit so they don't have to be upgraded.
It's about making the game look as good as some of its design features sound.
That's why i started the thread, Provide alternative examples of how it should be.
Just saying its crap and childish doesnt convey what you want it to look like.
What adjectives would you like me to use then? It looks like a child's movie, and it's a crap choice for a game that kids will not be playing in any large numbers. There have been many threads detailing exactly what is wrong with the graphics. If you don't know what I'm saying just look at my avatar, I designed it just for this topic.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Originally posted by Konfess MMOs can't handle non-stylized graphics, as seen in the Modern Warfare multiplayer lag issues. Developers know this. The only people calling for non-stylized graphics are those trying to exploit the lag for their advantage, or hardware manufacturers trying to use the lag to sell modern gear.
I seriously doubt there is a mass conspiracy out there of elite computer users trying to exploit graphics lag to win.. I honestly don't care about which direction EQN goes, as long as it all fits together.. Currently my problem with EQN graphics is the nonconforming graphics quality between "environment" and "character"... The world which includes everything from bushes, trees to buildings, is realism.. But then you put a cartoon type character into that world and they just don't match.. Take a look at WoW for example, a cartoon world with cartoon characters.. I'm ok with that..
I do have to say I'm not happy EQN is following EQ2's footsteps in allowing players to play non-humanoid races.. I was never happy when frogs and lizards became playable in EQ1, and EQ2 went overboard.. MY GOD, playing a butterfly? Really? Grrrrrrr I prefer a traditional playable race.. What's next, players playing a Treant? (WoW did it).. lol
Originally posted by ArchlyteThe parsing is at its finest in threads about EQN graphics. The current images are stupid looking, they need to make them less childish and simple.It's not about what came before, or what will save them money in 2019 because the same shit graphics still look like shit so they don't have to be upgraded.It's about making the game look as good as some of its design features sound.
That's why i started the thread, Provide alternative examples of how it should be.Just saying its crap and childish doesnt convey what you want it to look like.
What adjectives would you like me to use then? It looks like a child's movie, and it's a crap choice for a game that kids will not be playing in any large numbers. There have been many threads detailing exactly what is wrong with the graphics. If you don't know what I'm saying just look at my avatar, I designed it just for this topic.
Your still describing what you believe is wrong, I want to know what you think is right
As for examples, Post some concept art or screenshots of other games as a guide to how you believe EQN should be modeled?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Comments
ESOs face is much better, but the painted on armor -no thanks
Then again EQNs over exaggerated armor is not appealing to me.
This IMO looked better than anything after the revamp.
Those examples (and others mentioned) are still stylized and not realistic imo.
The common thing here is most of these examples are low fantasy with en emphasis on mature content such as blood splatter ect.
If you look at landmark currently The environments match much of the examples but where they differ is in the faces of the avatars.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
About as realistic as you can get
Stylized
The EQN style can work, it's not bad, but it will be an uphill battle from the start to win over those who prefer a realistic look.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/For comparison (even tho EQNL is at night)
Similar overall style and from that perspective the avatar is almost identical.
Armor is as detailed as what you posted, Its just not as low fantasy as yours.
What is the most disappointing about eqnl is the "Pastyness" of the characters faces.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
And the most common complaint about EQ2 is the horrible, plastic outdated models. They where cutting edge realistic when EQ2 launched. Go and download 2 movies, The Incredibles and Polar Express, both are good successful animated movies (when they launched) that was released the same year. Polar Express looks horribly dated nowadays with its realistic looking characters but Incredibles stills looks good.
Unfortunately realism is not the way to go.
Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.
He who can describe the flame does not burn.
Petrarch
Have you played Landmark? Not sure where you are seeing anything "realistic". Please point out a screen shot or video that shows how the character models and world don't mesh together.
I agree that soccer moms might not like twitch shooter combat, good thing EQN isn't twitch shooter combat
Although I believe the action/aim style will cut back on who it will appeal to, not so much as going with a totally different art style geared towards mature men. I'm doubting the combat will be what you think where only the most nimble wristed gamers will excel.
Edit:
Characters seem to work with the world just fine in these videos and beyond our personal preferences, I don't know of many mmorpgs that have the same quality at release that EQN had in the early stages with this tech demo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh_0neHhR0k&list=UU7tcHJ4Xq0Glc8vVhOrXt4g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdgPuEl5Nuk&list=UU7tcHJ4Xq0Glc8vVhOrXt4g
I think that is what is really getting to people.
Overall the world, armor, skills, bodies aren't too crazy out there or Disney like. It is the faces.
While I believe the LM/EQN faces can and do work for the most part, they could really use some defined lines, age, scars, imperfections, shadowing, etc that we see in most other games. Basically give the characters some character when zooming in on the face.
Regardless if they are going for oversized eyes/mouth for SOEmote and slightly larger hands/feed to go with the "heroic" design, I think the faces simply need more definition. The cartoonish proportions are needed to make emotions and the "life" of the characters to be easily seen, up close or from a distance. Unlike almost every other game with the blank stare or mouths that barely move.
EQN/LM faces look like someone got a little too happy with the make up kit and removed all the natural look. Not as plastic looking as EQ2, but they can improve quite a lot. My hope is that between now and release they work on them and along with the character creation tools, we can get some more unique looks going on, be it they are more realistic or mature or whatever people are wanting in a video game designed for everyone.
I was hoping Wildstar crashing and burning would give all the cartoony graphics acolytes some pause. I see I was wrong.
While you can't pin all of Wildstar's failure on the graphics there was certainly a large portion of the market that looked at those absurdly over cartooned faces and said: Hell no.
Everyone who has tried to copy WoW has failed, horribly, picking out one aspect of WoW and attributing anything about it's success to that is ridiculous considering that nothing about WoW's success is reproducible.
I believe the most successful mmo to launch in the last 6 years has been FFXIV:ARR which uses significantly more realistic graphics than Wildstar or EQN and will almost certainly be far more successful than either.
For me, graphics are really important in a video game.
I know it sounds shallow and for a long time I refused to believe I thought this way but I have tried a whole host of mmorpgs since WoW and the 10 year old graphics of most of these games really ruined the immersion factor for me especially as Im used to playing on such better graphics nowadays.
Having said that, Everquest next actually has decent graphics and is good enough for me to play and look at and play without thinking wow these are 10 year old graphics for a super lame pc.
I would like them to be better ofc but I expect bad graphics from mmorpgs as standard so any improvement let alone 1 as big as everquest nexts is a good one.
I wish all mmo rpgs had graphics as good as the division though.
Oh yeh wildstar failed for a number of reasons including its terrible identical to wow graphics when people expect more nowadays but everuest next has better graphics than the final fantasy you mention by a mile.
You got to bear in mind you have to look at the actual official released videos to see an example of what eq next will look like and not everquest landmark videos which are in beta and just a building tool.
As for non realistic graphics, I think they are here to stay, people don't have a problem with wow not trying to look realistic but fantasy instead, I doubt they will have a problem with everquest doing the same.
Btw everquest next is not trying to copy wow. its 100% the opposite of wow.
It has ai with motivations which wow doesn't, wow follows the pre programmed ai model with a go here, kill x mobs model.
It has a fully destructible environment so you can fight an enemy, break the floor or a wall and fall into a cave or pull another group, wow has no environment reaction at all.
It has 30 classes at launch and the class system is new. For example you learn classes in game rather than selecting them at the start so you can find a hermit in a swamp to teach you a class bvut afgter he does he wont want to be bothered as he is a hermit so he will move to another area. You don't just use 1 class, you multi class and different weapons have different skill features. This is completely different to the wow tank, dps, healer class system as you can have stuff like a teleporting warrior or a stealth mage etc by misxing classes.
The graphics are actually next gen, you cant see that unless you look at the official videos but some of the official videws sho character and environment features up close which are far beyond wow obviously.
It uses a free running system of travel so you can actually climb and leap over objects.
As for the ai motivations, they have done a storyboard example of who it works, ai factions have motivations and try to conquer each others regions if they succeed, something new happens like in the example when the dark elves manage to invade the dryad woods and set free an ancient evil by mistake the dryads were holding back which then decimated both dark elves and dryads. That's not a programmed routine, that was a super speeded up simulation of the ai working according to its motivations but iff the simulation was run again, it could turn out completely differently.
There is more I want to write but its getting too long.
There are other differences at all but the underlying effect is that its not a wow clone, its not a past gen mmo. its a next gen mmo.
Why do people continuously make the assumption that stylized = cartoony.
All stylized means is not realistic.
Realistic:
Stylized:
http://www.profounddecisions.co.uk/mediawiki-public/images/thumb/5/55/WinterSteinr3.jpg/300px-WinterSteinr3.jpg
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ff/21/3f/ff213f3c5da6d205e37846d6a73b43e8.jpg
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140329115228/lotr/images/a/a1/Elves.jpg
Cartoony:
http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.com/media/2011/10/destroyerrecolor.jpg
Why is this difficult to understand?
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I don't mind EQN's art style so long as everything is crisp and not muddy.
I don't think realistic art-styles are quite there yet for mmos. ESO does a great job of walking a fine line in my opinion.
The parsing is at its finest in threads about EQN graphics. The current images are stupid looking, they need to make them less childish and simple.
It's not about what came before, or what will save them money in 2019 because the same shit graphics still look like shit so they don't have to be upgraded.
It's about making the game look as good as some of its design features sound.
That's why i started the thread, Provide alternative examples of how it should be.
Just saying its crap and childish doesnt convey what you want it to look like.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
ArcheAge and ESO have my favorite graphics for MMOs and GW2 was nice as well so like a combination of those games mixed with EQ art style. But they're gonna do what they're gonna do and like the other person said, that cartoony graphic style actually does attract some people (just look at how many adults watch those Pixar movies) plus it makes it so the game can run on a toaster (which I think is the main reason they do it).
Ehhh what happend with his ehrm... you now... center parts... not so manly, or wait is it empty!?
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I just love the Graphics in ESO, its my favorite.
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I see my point went over your head, I was referring to people who made the equivocation that because WoW is successful and WoW has cartoony graphics that cartoony graphics make a game successful or are necessary to be successful.
And no EQN's Disney graphics are going to look like garbage next to FFXIV's graphics. The awkward characters that look like they just fell out the latest Dreamworks cartoon are not going to compare to characters that actually look like real people.
Also save yourself some embarrassment and quit talking about "nex gen" people have been saying that about almost every new mmo for the last 6 years and every last person who has talked about it has been wrong.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
What adjectives would you like me to use then? It looks like a child's movie, and it's a crap choice for a game that kids will not be playing in any large numbers. There have been many threads detailing exactly what is wrong with the graphics. If you don't know what I'm saying just look at my avatar, I designed it just for this topic.
I seriously doubt there is a mass conspiracy out there of elite computer users trying to exploit graphics lag to win.. I honestly don't care about which direction EQN goes, as long as it all fits together.. Currently my problem with EQN graphics is the nonconforming graphics quality between "environment" and "character"... The world which includes everything from bushes, trees to buildings, is realism.. But then you put a cartoon type character into that world and they just don't match.. Take a look at WoW for example, a cartoon world with cartoon characters.. I'm ok with that..
I do have to say I'm not happy EQN is following EQ2's footsteps in allowing players to play non-humanoid races.. I was never happy when frogs and lizards became playable in EQ1, and EQ2 went overboard.. MY GOD, playing a butterfly? Really? Grrrrrrr I prefer a traditional playable race.. What's next, players playing a Treant? (WoW did it).. lol
Your still describing what you believe is wrong, I want to know what you think is right
As for examples, Post some concept art or screenshots of other games as a guide to how you believe EQN should be modeled?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
This is a fantastic point. Almost any of the Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings armor and weapons are stylized.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/