Originally posted by AustrianActually FFXI economy was much more crafter/player driven. First off there were no drops (or very little of it I should say) nor were there quest rewards that provided you gear. Yes NM dropped items such as Leaping Lizzy and etc but they were rare, hard to find, were camped by botters, and didn't always drop the item. But those were just few items while the majority of the items came from crafters. Things like Bows, Arrows, Food, Armor, all were great alternatives to Lizzy's and the like. Many were even better if you HQed them which was where the real money was. I remember HQing the Wind Staff, the Holy Staff, X-bows, and a few other items, not to mention the consumables such as ammo and bullets were HQable as well.As a crafter, once i hit high level I was never broke and had millions. But I remember I had to start from the bottom, first started out gathering my own mats to cheaping the cost since I or any other player couldn't make money until they were in the 60-70+ crafting skill. Once I did that I started to focus on getting to 80 then leveling up the secondary skills to increase my variety of items I could craft. Once I hit 95+ and 60 on all secondary skills I was rolling in the dough making all kind of items for the market.As for you second comment. Of course SE isn't willing to let BiS in FFXIV ARR be purchasable because it will undermine the PVE content. The same goes for any themepark MMO. If crafters could provide the BiS gear and sell it on AH then those who don't raid could just simply buy the items off crafters thus undermining the pve content, even if they do decide to raid afterwards.This is why crafting will NEVER be useful in a themepark game because of conflicting interest (maybe I shouldn't say never ). Devs want players to experience their content and if the rewards are reaped from other areas outside the content then players will have no need to experience the content and if they do the content would not be as difficult because they've had previously acquired the BiS already.
You could bypass the actual NM hunting by buying the gear from AH (money talks). While those kind of items were not that numerous they were easily the best items for a long time. Plus the actual crafting system was tailored for no lifers with the most money to spend. You could get to 60's easily but then you needed more and more dough to progress. The whole game was set up for the no lifers to excel at. Can you camp HNM's with their 3h windows? Do you have enough time to get the money to either raise your crafting skill or just buy the BiS through AH? Little to no playing skills needed, just being the best no lifer there ever was.
That said it's funny that you say no themepark allows BiS to be purchaseable. You can buy your way into BiS in FFXI - in fact for the longest time there was no other way to do it. You can't buy your way into BiS in FFXIV - that's the difference between the two games. You can always make the case that FFXI is something other than a no lifer's heaven but it always boils down to the same issue. BiS through time and money, not skill.
FFXI wasn't a traditional themepark. There were no quests, there were very few mob drops. The only thing FFXI was similar was that they did have raids but the game offered a lot more than just raids. Even the housing although instanced had some perks that could only be done in housing such as gardening which was useful for crafting.
FFXI game evolved around the community and not just your guild or Linkshell either. But you really had to work together to progress from pve and even the economy.
Lol you keep saying FFXI is a no-lifers heaven. I played the game for almost 3 years while in college and working part time not to mention when I wasn't working I was participating in college sports. It took me 3 years to progress to the levels I reached in FFXI. No life has nothing to do with it, because ti's all about your personal pace. In FFXIV ARR I got pretty much max crafting in the the first month and one class to max level while working full time 8 hours a day and still do other activities. In otherwords it was very easy to progress to max. But that's how most MMOs are now days especially themepark.
Like I said before FFXI was more of a sandpark. It had some sandbox elements and some themepark elements. Sandbox as in the community and the economy was player driven about 75% of all goods were provided by the players in the form of crafting. Themepark in the sense that it did have raids and it was a leveling/class based type of game. But the game did not provide most of the players needs such as gear, buffs, consumables and etc.
In FFXI some BiS carried through for years of content. Yes, they were severely sunk in timesinks/gilsinks but they kept their utility.
BiS is RNG always in FFXIV not really requiring skill but instead static dodge mechanic memorization, with gear slightly lower literally just handed to you requiring time (only because of forced lockout) and no skill. And then every 6 months the gear is completely undesirable.
The other falling out in FFXIV i forgot to mention is how stupid it is that progression gear is literally handed to you in ARR but yet Vanity aspects of the game are incredibly difficult to obtain. Some of which are standards in most mmo's, like housing.
Good luck coming to FFXI after taking a break. "Welcome! Oh by the way, you will never be able to catch up to the people who never took a break. I hope that's okay, I mean, taking a break is not allowed here."
Your breakdown of FFXIV skill is good too. Playing the piano is just static key memorization too. Not very impressive.
"Housing is standard in most mmo's". -yolteotl79
LOL I'm assuming u don't know anything about FFXI anymore... Yea you need to buy the Adoulin expansion but it is extremely easy to be geared to i117 (119 is the cap) so that as a returning player it takes VERY little time to jump back into the mix.
Playing a piano is one thing, but only playing the same notes of "Chopsticks" on a piano for 6 months is a more accurate analogy to FFXIV.
And name one MMO that has housing that the housing was about a symbol of exclusivity as it is in FFXIV since Ultima Online? LOL
I guess it's for people who like the IP. The amount of polish and thoughtfulness that went into this game is mind blowing. I really like the characters but the gameplay is just so...
I literally have to take a nap after playing it for an hour. It's the granny mode of mmorpg gameplay.
Few Coil T9's, maybe a Coil T13 and then it's time for a nap, amirite?
Lol you keep saying FFXI is a no-lifers heaven. I played the game for almost 3 years while in college and working part time not to mention when I wasn't working I was participating in college sports. It took me 3 years to progress to the levels I reached in FFXI. No life has nothing to do with it, because ti's all about your personal pace. In FFXIV ARR I got pretty much max crafting in the the first month and one class to max level while working full time 8 hours a day and still do other activities. In otherwords it was very easy to progress to max. But that's how most MMOs are now days especially themepark.
Like I said before FFXI was more of a sandpark. It had some sandbox elements and some themepark elements. Sandbox as in the community and the economy was player driven about 75% of all goods were provided by the players in the form of crafting. Themepark in the sense that it did have raids and it was a leveling/class based type of game. But the game did not provide most of the players needs.
I am glad you managed to play FFXI to the cap (it's not about skill, just time). I did the same. That doesn't mean it's not a no-lifers heaven. No lifers did everything faster, they were stronger, the game was tailored just for them. People like you came behind and could never come even close to these no lifers. I am glad that you didn't mind the fact these no lifers beat you in everything the game had to offer.... Most people do though. Why should someone with more time yet being a worse player than you do "better" at the game than you? MMO's have long since moved past this failure of a game design, because it is ridiculous, simple as that.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
In FFXI some BiS carried through for years of content. Yes, they were severely sunk in timesinks/gilsinks but they kept their utility.
BiS is RNG always in FFXIV not really requiring skill but instead static dodge mechanic memorization, with gear slightly lower literally just handed to you requiring time (only because of forced lockout) and no skill. And then every 6 months the gear is completely undesirable.
The other falling out in FFXIV i forgot to mention is how stupid it is that progression gear is literally handed to you in ARR but yet Vanity aspects of the game are incredibly difficult to obtain. Some of which are standards in most mmo's, like housing.
Good luck coming to FFXI after taking a break. "Welcome! Oh by the way, you will never be able to catch up to the people who never took a break. I hope that's okay, I mean, taking a break is not allowed here."
Your breakdown of FFXIV skill is good too. Playing the piano is just static key memorization too. Not very impressive.
"Housing is standard in most mmo's". -yolteotl79
There is a world of difference between playing the piano and a skill rotation in a mmorpg.
If you're part of their target audience then you're a part of it. Clearly it's popular and you're part of a large group.
In FFXI some BiS carried through for years of content. Yes, they were severely sunk in timesinks/gilsinks but they kept their utility.
BiS is RNG always in FFXIV not really requiring skill but instead static dodge mechanic memorization, with gear slightly lower literally just handed to you requiring time (only because of forced lockout) and no skill. And then every 6 months the gear is completely undesirable.
The other falling out in FFXIV i forgot to mention is how stupid it is that progression gear is literally handed to you in ARR but yet Vanity aspects of the game are incredibly difficult to obtain. Some of which are standards in most mmo's, like housing.
Good luck coming to FFXI after taking a break. "Welcome! Oh by the way, you will never be able to catch up to the people who never took a break. I hope that's okay, I mean, taking a break is not allowed here."
Your breakdown of FFXIV skill is good too. Playing the piano is just static key memorization too. Not very impressive.
"Housing is standard in most mmo's". -yolteotl79
LOL I'm assuming u don't know anything about FFXI anymore... Yea you need to buy the Adoulin expansion but it is extremely easy to be geared to i117 (119 is the cap) so that as a returning player it takes VERY little time to jump back into the mix.
Playing a piano is one thing, but only playing the same song on a piano for 6 months is a more accurate analogy to FFXIV.
And name one MMO that has housing that the housing was about a symbol of exclusivity as it is in FFXIV since Ultima Online? LOL
First you say FFXI kept BiS for years then when I point out how stupid this kind of design is you change the subject to the time when FFXI doesn't keep BiS for years? Try to decide what you're talking about dude. When FFXI kept BiS for years it wasn't easy to jump back in. Now that they no longer do it is easy to jump back in. Amazing discovery.
FFXIV includes 4 "songs" per 6 months, yet even if it didn't, at least I wouldn't go dissing someone for playing a piano song perfectly. Especially when FFXI had you play 24+ person "twinkle twinkle little star" over and over again for years.
Before I can name one MMO that has housing as a symbol of exclusivity I need to figure out which MMO's have (non-instanced) housing in the first place...... Did WoW get housing already? It's only been like 10 years. Umm..
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I guess it's for people who like the IP. The amount of polish and thoughtfulness that went into this game is mind blowing. I really like the characters but the gameplay is just so...
I literally have to take a nap after playing it for an hour. It's the granny mode of mmorpg gameplay.
Few Coil T9's, maybe a Coil T13 and then it's time for a nap, amirite?
zzZZzzz
It's just boring gameplay wise. Sorry.
What exactly did you find boring about, say, T9? I can respect that opinion, honestly, as long as it isn't based on the tutorial of the game - that's just hilarious honestly. "The tutorial of a game is boring."
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
First you say FFXI kept BiS for years then when I point out how stupid this kind of design is you change the subject to the time when FFXI doesn't keep BiS for years? Try to decide what you're talking about dude. When FFXI kept BiS for years it wasn't easy to jump back in. Now that they no longer do it is easy to jump back in. Amazing discovery.
FFXIV includes 4 "songs" per 6 months, yet even if it didn't, at least I wouldn't go dissing someone for playing a piano song perfectly. Especially when FFXI had you play 24+ person "twinkle twinkle little star" over and over again for years.
Before I can name one MMO that has housing as a symbol of exclusivity I need to figure out which MMO's have (non-instanced) housing in the first place...... Did WoW get housing already? It's only been like 10 years. Umm..
The BiS of years-gone-by has stayed pertinent in FFXI, there is a difference between BiS and being competently able to participate in the content. FFXIV keeps a 6 month rotation where EVERYTHING becomes obsolete.
The hardest parts of FFXIV were Turn 5 and Titan Extreme when they were new (over a year ago). Everything since, whether you see it as a "new song" or not is a Beginner's course comparatively. The community whined about the difficulty of these instances and SE implemented the Echo to make them easier and has never implemented anything since that is part of the core game on that difficulty level. Granted the OPTIONAL adjusted 2nd turn isn't easy, but that is completely useless unless your an achievement hoarder and achievements play no role in the game. You can feel like there are '4 songs" every 6 months but Chopsticks in 4 different chords is still just Chopsticks.
And yes a decade ago FFXI required massive groupings to undertake objectives that rewarded a very limited population; but that's the thing, the Development team evolved the game as the genre evolved. ARR at launch had the pontential to be a large evolutionary step forward in the genre, but in patches hence has done nothing but devolve itself back to the standard.
And in regards to your glib remark about my statement on mmo's that have a housing system, how it is standard for the community to utilize it (except for ffxiv and uo):
#1 why would it require a bot to obtain a small house in Archeage? It just requires availability and a log.
#2 The fact that Yoshi-P demanded personal housing be open world is the very core of the problem of housing in FFXIV
#3 Players are forbidden from Gardening in FFXIV without the Housing.
#4 Yoshi-P directly lied to the playerbase about personal housing
#5 Yoshi-P uses the excuse that server limitations are the limitation of housing availability (which is true with the stupid way they implemented it) but then severely over stretches the truth when he declares that this same server limitation would make instance housing as intangible as open world housing because they would have to save the instance data (ffxi never had to gate the community to allow mog houses to store your data even though ur gardening was a continously progressed activity, hell they even opened up mog gardens to players that dont even have the adoulin expansion; terra never had to gate the community from housing even though every character can pretty much build whatever they want inside the instance)
The BiS has stayed pertinent, there is a difference between BiS and being competently able to participate in the content. FFXIV keeps a 6 month rotation where EVERYTHING becomes obsolete.
The hardest parts of FFXIV were Turn 5 and Titan Extreme when they were new (over a year ago). Everything since, whether you see it as a "new song" or not is a Beginner's course comparatively. The community whined about the difficulty of these instances and SE implemented the Echo to make them easier and has never implemented anything since that is part of the core game on that difficulty level. Granted the OPTIONAL adjusted 2nd turn isn't easy, but that is completely useless unless your an achievement hoarder and achievements play no role in the game. You can feel like there are '4 songs" every 6 months but Chopsticks in 4 different chords is still just Chopsticks.
And yes a decade ago FFXI required massive groupings to undertake objectives that rewarded a very limited population; but that's the thing, the Development team evolved the game as the genre evolved. ARR at launch had the pontential to be a large evolutionary step forward in the genre, but in patches hence has done nothing but devolve itself back to the standard.
And in regards to your glib remark about my statement on mmo's that have a housing system, how it is standard for the community to utilize it (except for ffxiv and uo):
#1 why would it require a bot to obtain a small house in Archeage? It just requires availability and a log.
#2 The fact that Yoshi-P demanded personal housing be open world is the very core of the problem of housing in FFXIV
#3 Players are forbidden from Gardening in FFXIV without the Housing.
#4 Yoshi-P directly lied to the playerbase about personal housing
#5 Yoshi-P uses the excuse that server limitations are the limitation of housing availability (which is true with the stupid way they implemented it) but then severely over stretches the truth when he declares that this same server limitation would make instance housing as intangible as open world housing because they would have to save the instance data (ffxi never had to gate the community to allow mog houses to store your data even though ur gardening was a continously progressed activity, hell they even opened up mog gardens to players that dont even have the adoulin expansion; terra never had to gate the community from housing even though every character can pretty much build whatever they want inside the instance)
Your assumption just falls on it's face from the very beginning. After 6 months has elapsed new gear enters the game - this doesn't automatically mean players can simply attain those items immediately. It takes months to build up a new gearset that exceeds that of the previous gear. Personally I took a break in-between 2.3 and 2.4 (made possible because the game doesn't like to screw me over for having other priorities once in a while). I came back with mostly ilvl90 gear. Does this mean I can skip ilvl110 and go straight to ilvl120-130? No it doesn't, because it will take a long while to get all the ilvl120 equipment in the first place. Ilevel110 gear is still extremely relevant to me and will be for a long time. It is the same for everyone in the game regardless of whether they are ilvl110 or ilvl90. The simple fact is gear doesn't get obsolete within six months - it stays relevant for up to a year or more especially if you like to play different classes.
This is also ignoring the fact that most dungeons have an ilvl sync, which makes ilvl110 gear viable and not obsolete at all for most of the content in the game.
If T5 was the hardest content XIV has offered then logically it shouldn't be a big deal for groups who have beaten T5 to clear T9 to T13 in no time whatsoever. Yet somehow that logic completely fails. The final coil of bahamut was cleared today, made possible by the players having a year to practice their jobs, perfecting their groups and having the Savage Coil provide them with increased challenge in-between the second and the final coil. Yet somehow it will take months for most groups that cleared T5 to beat T13.
#1 Bots are not necessary, just hacking tools. It only requires availability as if availability is such a common occurrence in ArcheAge especially with the hackers running rampart for the first few weeks.
#2 There's tons of plots available to everyone that has actually stopped complaining and raised the minimal sum required to get a house. The fact houses cost as in 2.3 as they did in 2.1 while players have access to a million ways to make gil + inflation having done it's job, someone like me is about to be able to buy a house and I have taken 4 months off in the year the service has been available. Just like Yoshida said before, the problem is in the player's heads. Making money is not hard, making enough money for a house in 2.4 is a fraction of the effort it was back in 2.1.
#4 Yoshi-P never lied about the personal housing. All the proof is out there.
#5 The saved data between FFXI and ARR is like the difference between the North and South Korean economies.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I refuse to subscribe to the game. After the ordeal of trying to deal with that damn game at launch and a couple months after I have no idea. I guess people like second chances.
To OP tho'. I don't mind zoning if what I'm zoning into has depth. Seamless world design seems to have promoted very static buildings and NPCs.
Your assumption just falls on it's face from the very beginning. After 6 months has elapsed new gear enters the game - this doesn't automatically mean players can simply attain those items immediately. It takes months to build up a new gearset that exceeds that of the previous gear. Personally I took a break in-between 2.3 and 2.4 (made possible because the game doesn't like to screw me over for having other priorities once in a while). I came back with mostly ilvl90 gear. Does this mean I can skip ilvl110 and go straight to ilvl120-130? No it doesn't, because it will take a long while to get all the ilvl120 equipment in the first place. Ilevel110 gear is still extremely relevant to me and will be for a long time. It is the same for everyone in the game regardless of whether they are ilvl110 or ilvl90. The simple fact is gear doesn't get obsolete within six months - it stays relevant for up to a year or more especially if you like to play different classes.
This is also ignoring the fact that most dungeons have an ilvl sync, which makes ilvl110 gear viable and not obsolete at all for most of the content in the game.
If T5 was the hardest content XIV has offered then logically it shouldn't be a big deal for groups who have beaten T5 to clear T9 to T13 in no time whatsoever. Yet somehow that logic completely fails. The final coil of bahamut was cleared today, made possible by the players having a year to practice their jobs, perfecting their groups and having the Savage Coil provide them with increased challenge in-between the second and the final coil. Yet somehow it will take months for most groups that cleared T5 to beat T13.
#1 Bots are not necessary, just hacking tools. It only requires availability as if availability is such a common occurrence in ArcheAge especially with the hackers running rampart for the first few weeks.
#2 There's tons of plots available to everyone that has actually stopped complaining and raised the minimal sum required to get a house. The fact houses cost as in 2.3 as they did in 2.1 while players have access to a million ways to make gil + inflation having done it's job, someone like me is about to be able to buy a house and I have taken 4 months off in the year the service has been available. Just like Yoshida said before, the problem is in the player's heads. Making money is not hard, making enough money for a house in 2.4 is a fraction of the effort it was back in 2.1.
#4 Yoshi-P never lied about the personal housing. All the proof is out there.
#5 The saved data between FFXI and ARR is like the difference between the North and South Korean economies.
You are going to White Knight this game til either they finally patch something in that breaks your camel's back or into the
unforseeable future.
You are making false statements and altering my statements trying to make a game that i have no interest in anymore seem better than it really is because you need that.
i don't need to waste my time, i stated only facts but only facts about a game that i was smart enough to stop supporting.
-Clearing Turn 5 NEW isnt the same as Turn 5 after 2.1 and definitely not NOW. But you deliberately went on that tangent. Turn 13 was cleared in days after patch, turn 9 was cleared in days after patch, turn 5 was cleared in weeks.
-you are trying to argue against FFXI based soley on BiS, but when I state how BiS is irrefutably and always outdated every 6 months in FFXIV you state that previous gear is competent. But when I state how gear is competent in FFXI that can be acquired in days you say I'm dodging?
-Availability is the primary problem with FFXIV housing ( get in after patch goes live or lose out) and yet that is somehow better than ArcheAge when FFXIV also has an excessive pricetag IN CONSIDERATION of what you are getting. Most gil accrual in FFXIV is from predatory means from other community members (Mercing, taking advantage of gardening lock outs, taking advantage of crafting lock outs). Different servers have different availibility issues, but as u say the gil isn't hard; which is why more people will be out to buy a house than there will be houses available. Especially since a vast majority of players eeking perosnal housing only really want small housing since the Devs made such a lazy housing system that u cannot develop it further after purchase.
-LOL how did Yoshi-P not lie about housing? If he makes an official statement about how the system will be and then deviates from it completely and uses the excuse "i changed my mind' it doesnt change that he lied. He premeditatedly wrote an apology letter for the personal housing system before it even went live in the game and yet he didn't do wrong? LOL
But anyways, you will come up with some other defense because that's what Supporters of this game have to do, the game can't speak for itself because it has gradually devolved ever single 3 months since 2.2 came out. But I'm done just like i was smart enough to be done with this game before Yoshi-P tried to propagandize more money with more over-exaggerations of future content, aka Heavensward.
As long as Supporters of this game are as defensive as you are, with a complete unwilligness to look at the flaws in the game honestly; the game will never get better. Yoshi P knows that defending lies with lies can warp ppls perceptions, after all that's what most White Knights do. If the Devs will never get "the rough with the smooth" in order to see how to truly make the game great, the game will never improve in comparison to it's short-comings.
The game is popular and people like me enjoy it. How is that a problem that you need to be resolved ? It is just is and I find that anyone who creates an account to expressly troll FFXIV threads even more absurd. I guess it must upset them that this game is growing and enjoying popularity in spite of their dislike for it. Well get over it.
Originally posted by AustrianLol you keep saying FFXI is a no-lifers heaven. I played the game for almost 3 years while in college and working part time not to mention when I wasn't working I was participating in college sports. It took me 3 years to progress to the levels I reached in FFXI. No life has nothing to do with it, because ti's all about your personal pace. In FFXIV ARR I got pretty much max crafting in the the first month and one class to max level while working full time 8 hours a day and still do other activities. In otherwords it was very easy to progress to max. But that's how most MMOs are now days especially themepark.Like I said before FFXI was more of a sandpark. It had some sandbox elements and some themepark elements. Sandbox as in the community and the economy was player driven about 75% of all goods were provided by the players in the form of crafting. Themepark in the sense that it did have raids and it was a leveling/class based type of game. But the game did not provide most of the players needs.
I am glad you managed to play FFXI to the cap (it's not about skill, just time). I did the same. That doesn't mean it's not a no-lifers heaven. No lifers did everything faster, they were stronger, the game was tailored just for them. People like you came behind and could never come even close to these no lifers. I am glad that you didn't mind the fact these no lifers beat you in everything the game had to offer.... Most people do though. Why should someone with more time yet being a worse player than you do "better" at the game than you? MMO's have long since moved past this failure of a game design, because it is ridiculous, simple as that.
Why would I care about no lifers being the first? Rockerfeller wasn't nearly the first to produce oil but none the less he was the one who made the most progress and money from it.
Also those no lifers didn't do any better than I did or worst? I was able to rise through the ranks to max end game and max crafting acquiring riches. The no-lifers had nothing to do with it. I am not even sure where you're getting to other than the hate for those who spend more time than you playing games?
How can it be a failure of game design? Last time I checked FFXI was still around. Also the last time I check the new design which is WoW-esque isn't doing so well either. Look at all the MMOs that tried to follow the same foot steps and failed. Followed by none of them having close to WoW success.
You are making false statements and altering my statements trying to make a game that i have no interest in anymore seem better than it really is because you need that.
You made an account on mmorpg.com just to bash a game you don't like (nor play, hopefully) even though you still for some reason beyond belief follow it's development. Amazing.
I need to make the game seem better than it really is for a random person on the internet when the vast majority of people already agree with me. That the game is good and a success is not some special snowflake opinion on the internet. I'm just a dime in the dozen with that opinion. You are the one going against the mainstream opinion here, so it is you that needs to convince others (and most of all yourself) that your opinion isn't poop.
About your "facts"... Well, the line between fiction and fact tends to be blurry at times LOL
I was talking about those who cleared T5 before 2.1. They don't just roll through T9 and T13 aside from few exceptional groups that make it their job.
T9 wasn't cleared days after the 2.2, it was cleared three weeks after 2.2 released. Funny how all the groups who cleared T5 pre-2.1 were just playing around for all those weeks, and didn't really care for that World First title.
In the original housing post of 2.1 Yoshi-P wrote:
“I can say that prices will be completely separate from Free Company housing, and, naturally, far more affordable.”
What this meant was the following:
The prices will be completely separate from Free Company land prices (At the time of Patch 2.1)
We’ll be making the prices much cheaper than what they are currently (At the time of Patch 2.1)
He doesn't speak of "changing his mind" (maybe if you keep saying its a fact it will become one?), but more importantly, what he said is completely and utterly true. It is unclear and can be understood the wrong way (which people did), but it is not a lie. That is the fact - whether you choose to believe that Yoshi-P was not just unclear but outright lied is up to you, but that is not a fact and never was. Considering Yoshi-P has never lied before or after this blurry incident... Well, it's your call mate.
Oh, look, more false or outright wrong statements from you... How great... well I agree with you on one thing, I don't need to waste my time with your "facts" anymore than I have. 7 posts and this much good material... Glad to have you here on mmorpg.com.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
That is a mystery indeed. They outclass you at the game and they're not even necessarily better at playing the game than you, they just have more time to play a video game. I don't understand how anyone could be bothered by that.
I guess players and devs are just incredibly mysterious beings for preferring player skill+playtime over just playtime.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Now this is my 'opinion' but it does nothing new, it's a theme park gear grind with a FF skin and to me the worst thing is everything has zone lines, even the city from one end to another you zone, this to me kills any sort of immersion or exploration in an MMO. Even WoW has nice seamless zones.
See, i'm the opposite of you. Well not total opposite, but ill explain.
WOW bothered me because, while you didnt have to zone, the zones were anything but seamless. You could literally stand in one screen and see a transition from one area to another that didnt make sense. Its like, one second you're in a lava filled area, then you walk 15 feet and you're in snowy capped mountains. Then at the next zoneline you go from snowy capped mountains to lush jungle/rainforest. It was immersion breaking for me.
I don't mind zonelines as long as the geopgraphy is consistent. Like back IN EQ, yes, you zoned, but the area you zoned into felt like it was exactly the same place you left, what i mean by that is if the zone line was a forested area in a narrow valley, you exited into a forested area in the same valley. And if you turned around and looked back, the area past the zone line looked exactly like where you just came from, same tree placement, rocks, etc.
Ideally i would like a world with no zone lines where each zone has a proper transition. Rift actually did EASILY the best job with this of any MMO i've played.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
FFXI wasn't a traditional themepark. There were no quests, there were very few mob drops. The only thing FFXI was similar was that they did have raids but the game offered a lot more than just raids. Even the housing although instanced had some perks that could only be done in housing such as gardening which was useful for crafting.
Errr... Just have to be a bit picky here... FFXI actually has quite a lot of quests. It had the main storyline Missions, and then it had a bunch of other quests; over 1000 per ffxiclopedia.org, and I don't know if it has them all accounted for or not. Many of those quests rewarded items that were quite valuable or otherwise useful... spell scrolls, etc.
Your leveling progress isn't driven through questing in XI as it is in themepark MMOs, and there are no ! and ? telling you exactly who to talk to, or markers showing you exactly where to go, etc. Missions and Quests in XI drove alternate paths of progression, each with their own benefits. To say that XI has no quests, though, is just wrong.
As for drops from mobs, again, that's not true. There were tons of drops, even back when I was playing it, and that hasn't been for a while now. Here's a list of just the ones with 100% drop rates. There are others with lower drop rates. Some of them, as I'm sure you know, were highly contested - particularly before SE made the switch to putting the most highly sought ones into BCNMs as possible rewards, to undermine their monopolization as world drops by RMT farmers and botters.
Originally posted by AustrianIt's a little more than X & Y there's been a dozens of AAA themepark MMOs with all the same structures and all but two/three failed, SWTOR, WoW, and FFXIV AR. Yes SWTOR is F2P but also P2P, so maybe 2 1/2? But guess what they're all big name titles and the only ones that are very successful.
Because these were the games that implemented the same structure right. Is such a simple concept yet you're having a hard time with it. x game has dungeons, y has dungeons. On one they're fun and interesting on the other they are boring tank and spank and uninspiring. One of these is going to be more popular than the other. The fact that both games have dungeons means nothing.
Do you notice a similarity between those 3 games? Blizzard, SE and Bioware. The only MMOs which are made by developers with a huge background in the gaming industry. Is no surprise that they are popular because these companies understand gameplay mechanisms, polish and attention to detail. They're not Funcom or whatever other noname developer that you only encounter on MMOs.
Yes those three companies have gaming background history. I'll admit FFXIV ARR is pretty will rounded in terms of themepark, which does contribute to its success. But to say that if this wasn't FF game that it would still have the same success as it does now is foolish.
I'd say that being a FF game certainly contributes to its success. But I think people are over-stating just how much of an influence that is, many of them clearly because they can't accept that it's popular simply because it's a well-made game that does many things right. They just can't seem to accept that a game they don't like is doing well because many others do.
As though someone having a differing opinion, liking something they don't, is some kind of "threat" or something.
So, dismissing its success as being "just because it's a FF game" is how they get around that. It's completely intellectually dishonest, considering that 1.0 already proved that having Final Fantasy in the title guarantees nothing if the game itself is not good. In fact, Final Fantasy fans were among 1.0's biggest detractors.
Seriously, can people please stop with this silly attempt to dismiss opinions they don't agree with by spinning out silly rationalizations that are just absurd on their face?
ARR succeeds as a MMORPG because it's a solid, polished, and well-designed game that runs beautifully across a wide array of hardware, with substantial content updates every ~3 months, tons of content to do, and a developer who is very much in-touch with the playerbase.
In this case, being a Final Fantasy MMO is more the "cherry on top" than it is the core reason for the game's success. If Yoshi-P had blown it, and the game failed again with 2.0, having Final Fantasy in the name would have done nothing for it, just as it did nothing for it in 1.0.
Originally posted by Pratt2112 Originally posted by AustrianFFXI wasn't a traditional themepark. There were no quests, there were very few mob drops. The only thing FFXI was similar was that they did have raids but the game offered a lot more than just raids. Even the housing although instanced had some perks that could only be done in housing such as gardening which was useful for crafting. Errr... Just have to be a bit picky here... FFXI actually has quite a lot of quests. It had the main storyline Missions, and then it had a bunch of other quests; over 1000 per ffxiclopedia.org, and I don't know if it has them all accounted for or not. Many of those quests rewarded items that were quite valuable or otherwise useful... spell scrolls, etc. Your leveling progress isn't driven through questing in XI as it is in themepark MMOs, and there are no ! and ? telling you exactly who to talk to, or markers showing you exactly where to go, etc. Missions and Quests in XI drove alternate paths of progression, each with their own benefits. To say that XI has no quests, though, is just wrong. As for drops from mobs, again, that's not true. There were tons of drops, even back when I was playing it, and that hasn't been for a while now. Here's a list of just the ones with 100% drop rates. There are others with lower drop rates. Some of them, as I'm sure you know, were highly contested - particularly before SE made the switch to putting the most highly sought ones into BCNMs as possible rewards, to undermine their monopolization as world drops by RMT farmers and botters. Just wanted to point that out.
FFXI had story quests but those quest didn't provide any gear rewards and the gil they provided were eh, non-existent.
The quest system wasn't used as a means for gear and leveling up like how it is in themepark, thus FFXI was anything but themepark at least from the questing progression standpoint.
Yes Mob did drop items but they were rare mobs thus the items nevertheless were in short supply. They were made even shorter when they made them BoP. There were other items like racial gear and etc but even some crafting gear were made better hell even the rare drops could be better. Not to mention the rare drops were tradable which means it still enhances the economy as players could sell them (until they made them BoP).
The point being though, the economy was player made and crafting had its uses from the very beginning. Unlike most themepark MMOs where crafting is very much a time/money sink and fairly useless.
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FFXI wasn't a traditional themepark. There were no quests, there were very few mob drops. The only thing FFXI was similar was that they did have raids but the game offered a lot more than just raids. Even the housing although instanced had some perks that could only be done in housing such as gardening which was useful for crafting.
FFXI game evolved around the community and not just your guild or Linkshell either. But you really had to work together to progress from pve and even the economy.
Lol you keep saying FFXI is a no-lifers heaven. I played the game for almost 3 years while in college and working part time not to mention when I wasn't working I was participating in college sports. It took me 3 years to progress to the levels I reached in FFXI. No life has nothing to do with it, because ti's all about your personal pace. In FFXIV ARR I got pretty much max crafting in the the first month and one class to max level while working full time 8 hours a day and still do other activities. In otherwords it was very easy to progress to max. But that's how most MMOs are now days especially themepark.
Like I said before FFXI was more of a sandpark. It had some sandbox elements and some themepark elements. Sandbox as in the community and the economy was player driven about 75% of all goods were provided by the players in the form of crafting. Themepark in the sense that it did have raids and it was a leveling/class based type of game. But the game did not provide most of the players needs such as gear, buffs, consumables and etc.
Check out this article on Why Crafting Sucks
LOL I'm assuming u don't know anything about FFXI anymore... Yea you need to buy the Adoulin expansion but it is extremely easy to be geared to i117 (119 is the cap) so that as a returning player it takes VERY little time to jump back into the mix.
Playing a piano is one thing, but only playing the same notes of "Chopsticks" on a piano for 6 months is a more accurate analogy to FFXIV.
And name one MMO that has housing that the housing was about a symbol of exclusivity as it is in FFXIV since Ultima Online? LOL
zzZZzzz
It's just boring gameplay wise. Sorry.
I am glad you managed to play FFXI to the cap (it's not about skill, just time). I did the same. That doesn't mean it's not a no-lifers heaven. No lifers did everything faster, they were stronger, the game was tailored just for them. People like you came behind and could never come even close to these no lifers. I am glad that you didn't mind the fact these no lifers beat you in everything the game had to offer.... Most people do though. Why should someone with more time yet being a worse player than you do "better" at the game than you? MMO's have long since moved past this failure of a game design, because it is ridiculous, simple as that.
There is a world of difference between playing the piano and a skill rotation in a mmorpg.
If you're part of their target audience then you're a part of it. Clearly it's popular and you're part of a large group.
Stop getting defensive.
First you say FFXI kept BiS for years then when I point out how stupid this kind of design is you change the subject to the time when FFXI doesn't keep BiS for years? Try to decide what you're talking about dude. When FFXI kept BiS for years it wasn't easy to jump back in. Now that they no longer do it is easy to jump back in. Amazing discovery.
FFXIV includes 4 "songs" per 6 months, yet even if it didn't, at least I wouldn't go dissing someone for playing a piano song perfectly. Especially when FFXI had you play 24+ person "twinkle twinkle little star" over and over again for years.
Before I can name one MMO that has housing as a symbol of exclusivity I need to figure out which MMO's have (non-instanced) housing in the first place...... Did WoW get housing already? It's only been like 10 years. Umm..
Simplify both enough (like the guy did) and they can easily be compared. Maybe the right answer is to not over-simplify the gameplay?
What exactly did you find boring about, say, T9? I can respect that opinion, honestly, as long as it isn't based on the tutorial of the game - that's just hilarious honestly. "The tutorial of a game is boring."
Alright found it. ArcheAge - only bots get a house, legitimate players are screwed.
The BiS of years-gone-by has stayed pertinent in FFXI, there is a difference between BiS and being competently able to participate in the content. FFXIV keeps a 6 month rotation where EVERYTHING becomes obsolete.
The hardest parts of FFXIV were Turn 5 and Titan Extreme when they were new (over a year ago). Everything since, whether you see it as a "new song" or not is a Beginner's course comparatively. The community whined about the difficulty of these instances and SE implemented the Echo to make them easier and has never implemented anything since that is part of the core game on that difficulty level. Granted the OPTIONAL adjusted 2nd turn isn't easy, but that is completely useless unless your an achievement hoarder and achievements play no role in the game. You can feel like there are '4 songs" every 6 months but Chopsticks in 4 different chords is still just Chopsticks.
And yes a decade ago FFXI required massive groupings to undertake objectives that rewarded a very limited population; but that's the thing, the Development team evolved the game as the genre evolved. ARR at launch had the pontential to be a large evolutionary step forward in the genre, but in patches hence has done nothing but devolve itself back to the standard.
And in regards to your glib remark about my statement on mmo's that have a housing system, how it is standard for the community to utilize it (except for ffxiv and uo):
#1 why would it require a bot to obtain a small house in Archeage? It just requires availability and a log.
#2 The fact that Yoshi-P demanded personal housing be open world is the very core of the problem of housing in FFXIV
#3 Players are forbidden from Gardening in FFXIV without the Housing.
#4 Yoshi-P directly lied to the playerbase about personal housing
#5 Yoshi-P uses the excuse that server limitations are the limitation of housing availability (which is true with the stupid way they implemented it) but then severely over stretches the truth when he declares that this same server limitation would make instance housing as intangible as open world housing because they would have to save the instance data (ffxi never had to gate the community to allow mog houses to store your data even though ur gardening was a continously progressed activity, hell they even opened up mog gardens to players that dont even have the adoulin expansion; terra never had to gate the community from housing even though every character can pretty much build whatever they want inside the instance)
Your assumption just falls on it's face from the very beginning. After 6 months has elapsed new gear enters the game - this doesn't automatically mean players can simply attain those items immediately. It takes months to build up a new gearset that exceeds that of the previous gear. Personally I took a break in-between 2.3 and 2.4 (made possible because the game doesn't like to screw me over for having other priorities once in a while). I came back with mostly ilvl90 gear. Does this mean I can skip ilvl110 and go straight to ilvl120-130? No it doesn't, because it will take a long while to get all the ilvl120 equipment in the first place. Ilevel110 gear is still extremely relevant to me and will be for a long time. It is the same for everyone in the game regardless of whether they are ilvl110 or ilvl90. The simple fact is gear doesn't get obsolete within six months - it stays relevant for up to a year or more especially if you like to play different classes.
This is also ignoring the fact that most dungeons have an ilvl sync, which makes ilvl110 gear viable and not obsolete at all for most of the content in the game.
If T5 was the hardest content XIV has offered then logically it shouldn't be a big deal for groups who have beaten T5 to clear T9 to T13 in no time whatsoever. Yet somehow that logic completely fails. The final coil of bahamut was cleared today, made possible by the players having a year to practice their jobs, perfecting their groups and having the Savage Coil provide them with increased challenge in-between the second and the final coil. Yet somehow it will take months for most groups that cleared T5 to beat T13.
#1 Bots are not necessary, just hacking tools. It only requires availability as if availability is such a common occurrence in ArcheAge especially with the hackers running rampart for the first few weeks.
#2 There's tons of plots available to everyone that has actually stopped complaining and raised the minimal sum required to get a house. The fact houses cost as in 2.3 as they did in 2.1 while players have access to a million ways to make gil + inflation having done it's job, someone like me is about to be able to buy a house and I have taken 4 months off in the year the service has been available. Just like Yoshida said before, the problem is in the player's heads. Making money is not hard, making enough money for a house in 2.4 is a fraction of the effort it was back in 2.1.
#4 Yoshi-P never lied about the personal housing. All the proof is out there.
#5 The saved data between FFXI and ARR is like the difference between the North and South Korean economies.
I refuse to subscribe to the game. After the ordeal of trying to deal with that damn game at launch and a couple months after I have no idea. I guess people like second chances.
To OP tho'. I don't mind zoning if what I'm zoning into has depth. Seamless world design seems to have promoted very static buildings and NPCs.
a yo ho ho
You are going to White Knight this game til either they finally patch something in that breaks your camel's back or into the
unforseeable future.
You are making false statements and altering my statements trying to make a game that i have no interest in anymore seem better than it really is because you need that.
i don't need to waste my time, i stated only facts but only facts about a game that i was smart enough to stop supporting.
-Clearing Turn 5 NEW isnt the same as Turn 5 after 2.1 and definitely not NOW. But you deliberately went on that tangent. Turn 13 was cleared in days after patch, turn 9 was cleared in days after patch, turn 5 was cleared in weeks.
-you are trying to argue against FFXI based soley on BiS, but when I state how BiS is irrefutably and always outdated every 6 months in FFXIV you state that previous gear is competent. But when I state how gear is competent in FFXI that can be acquired in days you say I'm dodging?
-Availability is the primary problem with FFXIV housing ( get in after patch goes live or lose out) and yet that is somehow better than ArcheAge when FFXIV also has an excessive pricetag IN CONSIDERATION of what you are getting. Most gil accrual in FFXIV is from predatory means from other community members (Mercing, taking advantage of gardening lock outs, taking advantage of crafting lock outs). Different servers have different availibility issues, but as u say the gil isn't hard; which is why more people will be out to buy a house than there will be houses available. Especially since a vast majority of players eeking perosnal housing only really want small housing since the Devs made such a lazy housing system that u cannot develop it further after purchase.
-LOL how did Yoshi-P not lie about housing? If he makes an official statement about how the system will be and then deviates from it completely and uses the excuse "i changed my mind' it doesnt change that he lied. He premeditatedly wrote an apology letter for the personal housing system before it even went live in the game and yet he didn't do wrong? LOL
But anyways, you will come up with some other defense because that's what Supporters of this game have to do, the game can't speak for itself because it has gradually devolved ever single 3 months since 2.2 came out. But I'm done just like i was smart enough to be done with this game before Yoshi-P tried to propagandize more money with more over-exaggerations of future content, aka Heavensward.
As long as Supporters of this game are as defensive as you are, with a complete unwilligness to look at the flaws in the game honestly; the game will never get better. Yoshi P knows that defending lies with lies can warp ppls perceptions, after all that's what most White Knights do. If the Devs will never get "the rough with the smooth" in order to see how to truly make the game great, the game will never improve in comparison to it's short-comings.
Never fails, can't make a good argument, resort to the white knight response. Too funny. lol
As well as not contributing anything but yet picking pieces of commentary and not game content to scrutinize... ;p
To call typing large paragraphs of utter BS contributing to anything is laughable.
Why would I care about no lifers being the first? Rockerfeller wasn't nearly the first to produce oil but none the less he was the one who made the most progress and money from it.
Also those no lifers didn't do any better than I did or worst? I was able to rise through the ranks to max end game and max crafting acquiring riches. The no-lifers had nothing to do with it. I am not even sure where you're getting to other than the hate for those who spend more time than you playing games?
How can it be a failure of game design? Last time I checked FFXI was still around. Also the last time I check the new design which is WoW-esque isn't doing so well either. Look at all the MMOs that tried to follow the same foot steps and failed. Followed by none of them having close to WoW success.
Check out this article on Why Crafting Sucks
You made an account on mmorpg.com just to bash a game you don't like (nor play, hopefully) even though you still for some reason beyond belief follow it's development. Amazing.
I need to make the game seem better than it really is for a random person on the internet when the vast majority of people already agree with me. That the game is good and a success is not some special snowflake opinion on the internet. I'm just a dime in the dozen with that opinion. You are the one going against the mainstream opinion here, so it is you that needs to convince others (and most of all yourself) that your opinion isn't poop.
About your "facts"... Well, the line between fiction and fact tends to be blurry at times LOL
I was talking about those who cleared T5 before 2.1. They don't just roll through T9 and T13 aside from few exceptional groups that make it their job.
T9 wasn't cleared days after the 2.2, it was cleared three weeks after 2.2 released. Funny how all the groups who cleared T5 pre-2.1 were just playing around for all those weeks, and didn't really care for that World First title.
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/22yrxo/order_of_the_blue_garter_turn_9_down_world_first/
http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/250fa2fc9b3709d18dca7ee733c851473cb34da5
Your "facts" have been amazing so far...
In the original housing post of 2.1 Yoshi-P wrote:
“I can say that prices will be completely separate from Free Company housing, and, naturally, far more affordable.”
What this meant was the following:
That is a mystery indeed. They outclass you at the game and they're not even necessarily better at playing the game than you, they just have more time to play a video game. I don't understand how anyone could be bothered by that.
I guess players and devs are just incredibly mysterious beings for preferring player skill+playtime over just playtime.
See, i'm the opposite of you. Well not total opposite, but ill explain.
WOW bothered me because, while you didnt have to zone, the zones were anything but seamless. You could literally stand in one screen and see a transition from one area to another that didnt make sense. Its like, one second you're in a lava filled area, then you walk 15 feet and you're in snowy capped mountains. Then at the next zoneline you go from snowy capped mountains to lush jungle/rainforest. It was immersion breaking for me.
I don't mind zonelines as long as the geopgraphy is consistent. Like back IN EQ, yes, you zoned, but the area you zoned into felt like it was exactly the same place you left, what i mean by that is if the zone line was a forested area in a narrow valley, you exited into a forested area in the same valley. And if you turned around and looked back, the area past the zone line looked exactly like where you just came from, same tree placement, rocks, etc.
Ideally i would like a world with no zone lines where each zone has a proper transition. Rift actually did EASILY the best job with this of any MMO i've played.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I'd say that being a FF game certainly contributes to its success. But I think people are over-stating just how much of an influence that is, many of them clearly because they can't accept that it's popular simply because it's a well-made game that does many things right. They just can't seem to accept that a game they don't like is doing well because many others do.
As though someone having a differing opinion, liking something they don't, is some kind of "threat" or something.
So, dismissing its success as being "just because it's a FF game" is how they get around that. It's completely intellectually dishonest, considering that 1.0 already proved that having Final Fantasy in the title guarantees nothing if the game itself is not good. In fact, Final Fantasy fans were among 1.0's biggest detractors.
Seriously, can people please stop with this silly attempt to dismiss opinions they don't agree with by spinning out silly rationalizations that are just absurd on their face?
ARR succeeds as a MMORPG because it's a solid, polished, and well-designed game that runs beautifully across a wide array of hardware, with substantial content updates every ~3 months, tons of content to do, and a developer who is very much in-touch with the playerbase.
In this case, being a Final Fantasy MMO is more the "cherry on top" than it is the core reason for the game's success. If Yoshi-P had blown it, and the game failed again with 2.0, having Final Fantasy in the name would have done nothing for it, just as it did nothing for it in 1.0.
FFXI had story quests but those quest didn't provide any gear rewards and the gil they provided were eh, non-existent.
The quest system wasn't used as a means for gear and leveling up like how it is in themepark, thus FFXI was anything but themepark at least from the questing progression standpoint.
Yes Mob did drop items but they were rare mobs thus the items nevertheless were in short supply. They were made even shorter when they made them BoP. There were other items like racial gear and etc but even some crafting gear were made better hell even the rare drops could be better. Not to mention the rare drops were tradable which means it still enhances the economy as players could sell them (until they made them BoP).
The point being though, the economy was player made and crafting had its uses from the very beginning. Unlike most themepark MMOs where crafting is very much a time/money sink and fairly useless.
Check out this article on Why Crafting Sucks