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Your Take on 'Hardcore'?
Helleri
Member UncommonPosts: 930
I was wondering about this word recently. What does it actually mean? I know what the dictionary says it means. Which is in a nutshell is, to be true to claims and resistant to change. But, I feel like (from the way I have seen it presented), that the word has been adopted into our MMOG vernacular as a term that can probably be applied a lot more broadly then it's strict definitions.
So, a few questions to the reader:
- What do you mean when you say Hardcore?
- What do you think of the relationship between Hardcore players and the games they play?
- Can you give an example of an experience you recollect to be the most Hardcore you have had; And, why you think it was that way?
Comments
1) anything that requires a long time to achieve and requires a combination of careful planning, deep knowledge, prolonged intense concentration and skill, and generally has a very large failure rate with substantial loss incurred with failure.
2) obsessive. borderline compulsive
3) sieging in MO (it's ok if you don't know what MO is). after a month of planning and logistical preparation we spent a whole 3 day weekend sieging a keep. i slept about 8 hours in the 3 days, the other 64 hours were pretty much spent sieging....with the odd eating/bathroom break.. we were pushed back countless times. the keep was rebuilt almost 3 times. most of the server was involved at one point or other. but eventually we manged to destroy the keep spending probably more gold that it takes to build 2 keeps......that was pretty hard core by my standards.
by the way i don't consider myself a hardcore player. i'm sure EvE players have some stories to tell
Using a dictionary is not always the correct way because definitions were around before computer gaming which brought about it's own vocabulary.
The term Hardcore in gaming started BEFORE online gaming,it was basically identical throughout all single player games.All it really meant was the toughest AI you could fight and/or more foes.That is it,that is all,those two area cover all of the Hardcore definition when relates to gaming.
Now since the original phase of the term Hardcore,online gamer's have included the term Raiding which not just imo but FACT is NOT the case because i have seen more hardcore combat versus normal outdoor mobs in FFXI than i have seen in many raids and that is not an exaggeration.Point is Raiding should NEVER be used when talking Hardcore unless the combat is actually hardcore,meaning tougher AI and/or more foes.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It actually existed before video games period. It was music scene terminology before that. But, even so. The strict definition (if you use something like urban dictionary or MMORPG glossaries) has not really changed much. How we apply it has. I am not trying to get into an etymological debate about the true meaning of the word. I laid out something sufficient for the context and would like to leave it at that. So, we can move on to exploring what people's perception of the word and it's associated behaviors are (this line of discussion threatens the integrity of what I am looking for here. Which is how people have come to use and apply this -previous to fully understanding it's meaning- if we argue about that we color the goal of the thread). . Now, getting on within the set scope of the thread...
So, if I am understanding your meaning correctly. Then you see it as anything that is Highly Involved. Perhaps something that is not very approachable from the outset. Or something that has a hard learning curve and takes dedication to reach a point of mastery in. Is that correct?
I agree i see nothing what so ever hardcore about raiding.For me hardcore has always been about the level of ones commitment and time invested in what ever craft it is they choose to engage in a game.the desire to be the most efficant and the best at what it is your doing.
Long time has almost nothing to do with hardcore although i accept your opinion since the OP question did say in your opinion.
There are SEVERAL reasons to why a battle could take longer and that could be as simple as stat mechanics ,such as high regeneration which would take more consistent damage than anything skillful.
I will use one example of an outdoor mob in FFXI that is very tough and impossible to solo.There are mobs that can charm a player or more,once charmed your done or you will begin to fight your friends in the group and if your the tank that could be tough because they might have to kill you and have no tank to fight the mob all the while have to defend against him while your tank is charmed or perhaps even your healer is charmed.Get a link or two and your party is dead.Of course there is skill to be had like being prepared to sleep your party member that gets charmed but then how do you fight if it is your tank?Well tons of ways,players using shadows to off tank,spread out hate so it moves around and everyone takes a bit of damage ect ect.
Back to the point of time does not mean a lot,there was a mob in FFXI "Pandemonium" that took several months for a group to figure out how to defeat him.It was not so much about skill but more so about trying to figure out how to damage him and his weakness.That dose not always play out as MANY Raids are simply remember the pattern/sequence rinse and repeat but a really tough AI "aka Hardcore" might change his weaknesses or his patterns often making it really tough to take down.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
For me, the term hardcore is the measure of reward/risk.
Ultimate reward - Ultimate low risk = bottom of the hardcore scale
Minimum reward - Ultra high risk = top or the hardcore scale
Different levels between those two determine the level of hardcoredness. The issue is what level of risk/reward you enjoy playing. I prefer to have a bit smaller rewards for higher risks. Nothing near the bottom of the scale, but definitely right of center.
Hardcore is often just associated with combat. PvE or PvP. The scale still works, but in the case of risk/reward, there would be a consequence for losing battles, and some sort of bonus for winning battles. This runs the gamut for xp bonuses, lost xp, looting, and a host of other possibilities.
I self identify as a monkey.
My take is similar to this one. For me the core defining characteristic that differentiates "hardcore" from casual is the time commitment. Largely I believe a casual player can be just as good a player, and can eventually accomplish just as much, but at a much slower pace.
Hardcore players tend to dedicate much more time and take in the toughest challenges while content is current, where as casual players play much less and may choose to take on hard challenges, but likely not while the content is current, or if it is, probably not the hardest version of the encounters.
For example to me a hardcore player in Wow is in a Mythic raiding guild with the goal of downing all the mythic bosses before the next raid tier launches. While not raiding they are still in game farming mats for raids, generally have several alts they have geared up almost as much as their main, are taking on challenge mode dungeons with the intent to get a gold rating, etc.
A casual player is likely happy with dabbling with alts, socializing, looking for transmog gear, and if they raid they are happy doing LFR or just normal-mode raids and may not care if they clear it before the next raid tier launches. Generally they are playing much less then the hardcore player.
Me Grimlock King!
So, on the unadulterated/hijacked side of this thread (the one I am choosing to pay attention to). I am seeing the idea that hardcore as it has come to be applied. Can mean level of challenge (I am taking risk vs. reward to be synonymous in this context with challenge) and level of involvement. Which is interesting to me because these are both mostly game end things (the facilitation of such experiences anyways).
If you want to boil it down to its simplest components, I'd think this would work. However, as you've seen, and will see as more post, there will be lots of disagreement. This is why it's so difficult for developers to get a handle on what people really want because the MMO Community can't even come to consensus on terms they throw around all the time, such as hardcore vs casual.
I know this first hand because I used to run a "casual" guild and only about 1/3 of the applicants truly shared the same vision of casual that I had. Lol!
Me Grimlock King!
IMO there are 2 types of hardcore that can be applied. A PvE oriented and a PvP oriented definition. In the more PvE scale of hardcore, you can definitely view it as challenge, although I don't think it applies just end game things.
If a level 1 has to really fight to beat the level 1 chicken, it would move up on the harcore scale, whereas if a level 1 can breeze through the level 10 chickens, you would move down the hardcore scale. Another factor to consider in where ont he hardcore scale it is would be the factor of what is the reward for winning the challenge and the consequence of losing the challenge. Together, I think you would have a good measure of how hardcore the game was in terms of the PvE experience.
The PvP experience is a bit different in that some of the rewards/consequences are more personal. To many (myself included), the belief is that there should be a significant consequence for losing against another player. Depending on what that consequence is, would determine where it fits on the hardcore scale. To my mind a full loot game would be on the very high end of the hardcore scale. I don't believe a game needs to be that level, but I do prefer a bit more hardcore than most MMOs are in their PvP.
I self identify as a monkey.
hardcore is just a word. some peoples that wanted to be special.....
lets say you put 3000 hours in front of computer learning everything. and then get owned by someone that put 1000 hours in front of computer learning everything.
everyone is different. Everyone learn different way. slow. fast. everyone got different method to learn things. some peoples enjoy listening to music. others like watching a movie while learning.....
there will always be someone better. so hardcore is just a word.
True....And, this is something I am aiming for here. I don't want to talk about what it actually means or should be taken to mean. And, I'd prefer respondents not have to see that line of conversation (because it may end up coloring what their post would have read as other wise). What I am looking for (and this was the scope set in the OP and through reiteration). Is what people have come to use the term to refer to. regardless of semantics of it's actual definition. Who did they first hear it from (if they can recall)? How have they been applying it? what does it mean to them?
I don't feel this is something that can ever be fully addressed unless we can get a clear and honest picture of the current field of play. That is the only intended scope of this thread. Flat out, what has it come to mean to you personally when you apply the term. And, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask those who over think the matter or apply a heavy does of critical analysis to it, to simply refrain instead.
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Permanent death with full loot is supreme hardcore.
Hardcore players are different than a hardcore game though.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
And, another side to it emerges. So, we have:
Game-End;
Highly Involved Play.
Challenge.
User-End;
Attitude of undaunted persistence.
Appreciation for an environment that encourages mastery through repetition.
There is a part of this largely untouched upon though. That being experiences with Hardcore Play. What game(s) have held that place in your mind of being the most Hardcore (as in encouraging this mode of play as the main mode of play. by the way the game works)?
Somebody who plays a lot and spends their time min/maxing instead of leveling a new character or w/e.
Unhealthy lol.
I used to raid Tues/Wed/Thurs 7pm-1am & Mon 10pm-1am in WoW, while ALL of my other time was spent reading logs, watching videos of my class, the fights, talking to other hardcore raiders about mechanics. Testing new talents and openings. While capping Valor points on my Priest and Druid, and running my Priest through LFR and Flex each week.
Well you could have a highly twitch based game where what you have to do is pretty intuitive and some people may just have the natural reflex skill to do it quickly without much practice whereas for someone like me getting even decent at games like that is a huge challenge. I think what differentiates hardcore is the amount of learning and practice required to do something. Hardcore players have gaming as probably their main leisure activity. They are willing to spend many hours learning how to play a game they like well if that's what it takes.
I don't think mindless grinds are hardcore. If what you're doing is very simple and you just have to do it over and over most hardcore players will get bored with that as fast as anyone else will.
This is really what hardcore is about, although many will laugh it off.
Hardcore is a way for people to bring attention to themselves. Some are wannabees and some are totally obsessed about just being better than everyone else.
But in the case of the hardcore gamer, the focus is on the player and not the game. When Devs design a game they are not thinking of one player. They are thinking we want a game that everyone will like. But the hardcore gamer looks at a game as a world that he owns and everything in that game should revolve around him.
Quite a different outlook on things.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
A) For me the term hardcore changes a bit its meaning depending if I apply it to a player or a game. When it applies to a player it means that he is more intense in his playstyle, either in terms of hours or in terms of min maxing. When it applies to a game it's basically any game that needs much more focus and allows less margin of error.
C) Based on A+B I think my most hardcore phase was on eve online, it involved a lot of hours planning or creating the best strategies to do stuff both in a solo or in a corp way.
So, updating this. Here is what I have been able to gather about the general consensus (more or less) for how we apply the term:
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Hardcore can be both attributed to players and games.
On the Game-End;
Highly Involved Play (not only for the degree of content or learning curve. But, for the need to remain present and attentive as well. Or risk failure).
High degree of Challenge (High risk, with reward only commensurate to the players ability to rise to the challenge. Just barely overcoming an obstacle or playing through it once only doesn't guarantee great reward. At least some of that reward is designed to come from the feeling of mastery given the effort).
And, a game built to offer such thing facilitates on the User-End;
The development of an attitude of undaunted persistence (often accompanied by a thirst to know a game inside and out. not just on the practical but the theoretical level).
This creates an appreciation for an environment that encourages mastery through repetition (So much so, that even when taking part in an experience setup to be more casual, the hardcore player will find ways to be hardcore. Such as replaying a game from another angle where the content is not so extensive as to last at any more then a far more uninvolved rate and mode of play).
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How is that sounding so far, for a general idea of what we can take to be meant by this word when used (I realize some of it is digging into the comments and trying to pull out and then condense the meanings. But, can I get a show of 'Yay" or "Nay" on how it comes off so far)?
Well definitions are not set by a single person. But, usually a comity of people. One person not seeing what they do as hardcore. Doesn't mean others won't. And, the presumption of this thread is that hardcore does exist. but because it is an extension of a preexisting thing. And, because the development of it's use as a term came very organically. it is not well defined in this context. So, in order to validate it as a thing. Giving it new definition in the context of MMOG/MMORPG gaming is necessary. And, to re-define it in this way. The first step is to get a general idea of how it is being used. Continue to re-frame and re-present that idea as it coalesces. Until we can reach at least a majority consensus on something that is generally agreeable.
If we can agree about the different aspects of what it can be taken to mean. And put them together in a non-contradicting and seamless manner. That demonstrates that the concept of this 'being a thing' is worth considering. If we can hammer out the redefinition and continue to refine it. And, if each of us carries that idea where ever we might end up taking it. Then there is a much clearer picture. something that can be accessed by developers and publishers. If we force an understanding and a consensus on what we think. then they can understand what we think better. And, design better for us.
I take 'hardcore' to mean exactly what it is: a full-blown addict who structures his or her life around accommodating the addiction.
Any other definition doesn't make sense.
__________________________
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"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Point taken, I guess then I will just continue to ignore the term and refuse to use it just like I refuse to use stupid terms like "twinking"( I can't believe people use this term they prolly have no idea what it actually means outside of gaming O.o) or 'baddies" and such drivel that people use.