Originally posted by fivoroth I don't think just because something is a commercial success that it can't be art. But I tend to associate art with movies, music and paintings. Paintings being the most strongly associated with the word art. Games not so much.
Games are moving Paintings, that you can interact with. So it's advanced art, actually.
Originally posted by fivoroth I don't think just because something is a commercial success that it can't be art. But I tend to associate art with movies, music and paintings. Paintings being the most strongly associated with the word art. Games not so much.
Games are moving Paintings, that you can interact with. So it's advanced art, actually.
My toilet paper roll has paintings on it too. Does that mean my toilet paper is art?
If OP want to avoid institutionalizing "art" at the whim of producers of games in general or of an MMO game, then OP should start talking about individual games and not generalizing the way he/she does.
It has been pointed out years ago, that anything put in an art museum automatically end up being "art", and so nobody is better off thinking that games as such is "art" just because.
Originally posted by fivoroth I don't think just because something is a commercial success that it can't be art. But I tend to associate art with movies, music and paintings. Paintings being the most strongly associated with the word art. Games not so much.
Games are moving Paintings, that you can interact with. So it's advanced art, actually.
My toilet paper roll has paintings on it too. Does that mean my toilet paper is art?
Yes. That would mean your tp is art.
And your house wallpaper is art. And building designs are art. Cars are works of art. The autumn trees are art. Museums with paintings are the oddity. Why point to one work of art when all of life is a canvas? But the "art" museums were made so you could look at one thing at a time and say to yourself, "how does this make me feel?"
Devs have to have Graphic Art Design concepts to even create a game. Even those on the programming side must study art and worry about how we make you "feel" when you play.
Originally posted by fivoroth I don't think just because something is a commercial success that it can't be art. But I tend to associate art with movies, music and paintings. Paintings being the most strongly associated with the word art. Games not so much.
Games are moving Paintings, that you can interact with. So it's advanced art, actually.
My toilet paper roll has paintings on it too. Does that mean my toilet paper is art?
Yes. That would mean your tp is art.
And your house wallpaper is art. And building designs are art. Cars are works of art. The autumn trees are art. Museums with paintings are the oddity. Why point to one work of art when all of life is a canvas? But the "art" museums were made so you could look at one thing at a time and say to yourself, "how does this make me feel?"
Devs have to have Graphic Art Design concepts to even create a game. Even those on the programming side must study art and worry about how we make you "feel" when you play.
I would say that a lot of modern art galleries are an unabashed act of self promotion and protectionism amongst a small group of pretentious twats (artists deemed acceptable by the likes of Saatchi and pontificating, sycophantic critics) who have set themselves up as the art establishment.
Even those that are self-professed anti-establishment (the likes of Tracy Emin and Damien Hurst- both of whom have a team of people producing their "art" on their behalf) created their own little anti-establishment establishment with its own self promotion and protectionism. They then became part of the establishment when they could garner more publicity from it; as an example Emin is now Professor of Drawng at the Royal Academy which is astonishing since my dog can produce better pencil sketches.
So if I have to choose between an mmo as a form of modern art or those fucktards I have mention above, I would choose an mmo.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
The answer is: I don't care. If you don't care, you don't hit reply. This topic always seems to irritate you for one reason or another.
I do care if a particular game is fun for me. Kind of a given; it's a game we're talking about, right? But beyond that, it makes zero different to whether it is art, or it is a product. You just said this one sentence ago
Why not?
I said I don't care if MMORPG is a form of art. I didn't say i don't care about discussing it on the forum. Discussing is fun ... but again ... whether it is art of not makes zero difference in my enjoyment of games. Is there a reason why i should not state that?
Use your head, man.
Sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it.
so you don't disagree of my logic ... just don't like the fact that i am stating an opinion not shared by you?
LMAO, wow.
I disagree with plenty of posters 'round here, that's just a part of the game. However when someone comes into a thread such as this and simply states: "I don't care" adding fuck all to the discussion, ya, I might be inclined to say something. Not sharing your "opinion" had nothing to do with my response. That really should have been obvious to you.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Yes. They all are. Even the shittiest, most money-grubbing ones.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The Supreme court was not in full agreement (7/2 split). And, did not out right name video games as an art form. Rather they said that video games merit the same 1st. Amendment protection that the Arts, Entertainment, And other forms of expression also have: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/08-1448.pdf
The point here being that this is a matter of our own perceptions and opinions (ultimately) and only a matter of law in its legally protected status within the united states as a form of free expression.
The answer is: I don't care. If you don't care, you don't hit reply. This topic always seems to irritate you for one reason or another.
I do care if a particular game is fun for me. Kind of a given; it's a game we're talking about, right? But beyond that, it makes zero different to whether it is art, or it is a product. You just said this one sentence ago
Why not?
I said I don't care if MMORPG is a form of art. I didn't say i don't care about discussing it on the forum. Discussing is fun ... but again ... whether it is art of not makes zero difference in my enjoyment of games. Is there a reason why i should not state that?
Use your head, man.
Sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it.
so you don't disagree of my logic ... just don't like the fact that i am stating an opinion not shared by you?
LMAO, wow.
I disagree with plenty of posters 'round here, that's just a part of the game. However when someone comes into a thread such as this and simply states: "I don't care" adding fuck all to the discussion, ya, I might be inclined to say something. Not sharing your "opinion" had nothing to do with my response. That really should have been obvious to you.
So i suppose you really can't disagree with my logic .. but that my opinion is so opposite to your view that you have an emotional response?
I am curious why would a "I don't care" comment invoke such a strong response. After all, all I am saying is that i don't see the question "is the MMORPG a form of art?" as important. Why is that a problem? It is fair game to discuss if a particular issue is important. Is it any different than saying "i don't care if the game has good graphics?"
I disagree with plenty of posters 'round here, that's just a part of the game. However when someone comes into a thread such as this and simply states: "I don't care" adding fuck all to the discussion, ya, I might be inclined to say something. Not sharing your "opinion" had nothing to do with my response. That really should have been obvious to you.
So i suppose you really can't disagree with my logic .. but that my opinion is so opposite to your view that you have an emotional response? I assure you that at no point during my response did I become emotional, sorry you read it that way.
I am curious why would a "I don't care" comment invoke such a strong response. After all, all I am saying is that i don't see the question "is the MMORPG a form of art?" as important. Why is that a problem? It is fair game to discuss if a particular issue is important. Is it any different than saying "i don't care if the game has good graphics?" See post #25. It's OK to Have an opinion, but there's no need to be snooty and rude about it.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Gaming is a unique activity that has no relation to art or anything else in our culture. And if we keep it that way we can stay out of the forum arguments and twitter hysteria that activist groups are conjuring up about our hobby.
No, because being art isn't their primary purpose.
The games certainly contain art, just like about everything designed by humans these days. But just containing art does not make the whole product art.
Why does it have to be their purpose? And does it somehow negate the merits of a work because its creator might had different intentions going in (e.g. to make a living)?
Originally posted by fivoroth I don't think just because something is a commercial success that it can't be art. But I tend to associate art with movies, music and paintings. Paintings being the most strongly associated with the word art. Games not so much.
Games are moving Paintings, that you can interact with. So it's advanced art, actually.
My toilet paper roll has paintings on it too. Does that mean my toilet paper is art?
Originally posted by jeddak I think they could be. The early mmo's were unique but now most seem to be just copies of previous titles powered by the hype machine. If they want a chance at big bucks they cater to the masses instead of putting out a unique product but it's hard to really know anymore with so many titles out there. You can't play them all.
Frankly do people copy others in most if not all forms of art.
I would say it is a matter of perspective, what exactly is art really is in the eye of the beholder. Making a huge inflatable poo or a huge green xmas tree looking dildo isn't really art in my book for example but a certain American artist live on making stuff like that so clearly do some people consider it art.
Originally posted by jeddak I think they could be. The early mmo's were unique but now most seem to be just copies of previous titles powered by the hype machine. If they want a chance at big bucks they cater to the masses instead of putting out a unique product but it's hard to really know anymore with so many titles out there. You can't play them all.
Frankly do people copy others in most if not all forms of art.
I would say it is a matter of perspective, what exactly is art really is in the eye of the beholder. Making a huge inflatable poo or a huge green xmas tree looking dildo isn't really art in my book for example but a certain American artist live on making stuff like that so clearly do some people consider it art.
Art is not limited to painting alone.... There is film, television, stage, music, literature, poems...
Frankly, no. There are too many loose definitions of art, but firstly, games are not primarily about beauty, and secondly, the key element in any art work is its profundity, and MMORPGs neither aim for, nor achieve, that.
MMORPGs are a form of entertainment. That is quite sufficient commendation.
You think Picasso was aiming for beauty? As for "profundity", that is much like beauty, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what is not profound to one, can be profound to another. Now for the "neither aiming nor achieving" part. Walk into many an art gallery and you will find works that the artist was clearly not aiming for nor achieving something remotely profound.
Games are a work of art.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Frankly, no. There are too many loose definitions of art, but firstly, games are not primarily about beauty, and secondly, the key element in any art work is its profundity, and MMORPGs neither aim for, nor achieve, that.
MMORPGs are a form of entertainment. That is quite sufficient commendation.
You think Picasso was aiming for beauty? As for "profundity", that is much like beauty, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what is not profound to one, can be profound to another. Now for the "neither aiming nor achieving" part. Walk into many an art gallery and you will find works that the artist was clearly not aiming for nor achieving something remotely profound.
Games are a work of art.
I agree and I think in x years when this period is written in history, many will have considered the MMORPG as a reflection of our society.
Yes but almost anything can be art. A child's fingerpainting is just as much "art" as the Mona Lisa. We only differentiate them by subjectively judged quality and perceived cultural significance. So unless you're going to argue that people who make games have absolutely no creative intent they are definitely art. Whether many of them are *good* art is an entirely different question.
Comments
Games are moving Paintings, that you can interact with. So it's advanced art, actually.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
My toilet paper roll has paintings on it too. Does that mean my toilet paper is art?
If OP want to avoid institutionalizing "art" at the whim of producers of games in general or of an MMO game, then OP should start talking about individual games and not generalizing the way he/she does.
It has been pointed out years ago, that anything put in an art museum automatically end up being "art", and so nobody is better off thinking that games as such is "art" just because.
Yes. That would mean your tp is art.
And your house wallpaper is art. And building designs are art. Cars are works of art. The autumn trees are art. Museums with paintings are the oddity. Why point to one work of art when all of life is a canvas? But the "art" museums were made so you could look at one thing at a time and say to yourself, "how does this make me feel?"
Devs have to have Graphic Art Design concepts to even create a game. Even those on the programming side must study art and worry about how we make you "feel" when you play.
I would say that a lot of modern art galleries are an unabashed act of self promotion and protectionism amongst a small group of pretentious twats (artists deemed acceptable by the likes of Saatchi and pontificating, sycophantic critics) who have set themselves up as the art establishment.
Even those that are self-professed anti-establishment (the likes of Tracy Emin and Damien Hurst- both of whom have a team of people producing their "art" on their behalf) created their own little anti-establishment establishment with its own self promotion and protectionism. They then became part of the establishment when they could garner more publicity from it; as an example Emin is now Professor of Drawng at the Royal Academy which is astonishing since my dog can produce better pencil sketches.
So if I have to choose between an mmo as a form of modern art or those fucktards I have mention above, I would choose an mmo.
http://tinyurl.com/klgdfgl
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
LMAO, wow.
I disagree with plenty of posters 'round here, that's just a part of the game. However when someone comes into a thread such as this and simply states: "I don't care" adding fuck all to the discussion, ya, I might be inclined to say something. Not sharing your "opinion" had nothing to do with my response. That really should have been obvious to you.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The Supreme court was not in full agreement (7/2 split). And, did not out right name video games as an art form. Rather they said that video games merit the same 1st. Amendment protection that the Arts, Entertainment, And other forms of expression also have: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/08-1448.pdf
It was the Smithsonian American Museums recognition of video games as an art form with their 2012 exhibit that really launched this idea: http://www.si.edu/Exhibitions/Details/The-Art-of-Video-Games-840
The first amendment protection ruling merely paved the way for it. And, the definition and treatment of Art has always been very loose: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Definition+of+art
The point here being that this is a matter of our own perceptions and opinions (ultimately) and only a matter of law in its legally protected status within the united states as a form of free expression.
So i suppose you really can't disagree with my logic .. but that my opinion is so opposite to your view that you have an emotional response?
I am curious why would a "I don't care" comment invoke such a strong response. After all, all I am saying is that i don't see the question "is the MMORPG a form of art?" as important. Why is that a problem? It is fair game to discuss if a particular issue is important. Is it any different than saying "i don't care if the game has good graphics?"
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Gaming is a unique activity that has no relation to art or anything else in our culture. And if we keep it that way we can stay out of the forum arguments and twitter hysteria that activist groups are conjuring up about our hobby.
Why does it have to be their purpose? And does it somehow negate the merits of a work because its creator might had different intentions going in (e.g. to make a living)?
Depends who painted it.
Frankly do people copy others in most if not all forms of art.
I would say it is a matter of perspective, what exactly is art really is in the eye of the beholder. Making a huge inflatable poo or a huge green xmas tree looking dildo isn't really art in my book for example but a certain American artist live on making stuff like that so clearly do some people consider it art.
Art is not limited to painting alone.... There is film, television, stage, music, literature, poems...
You think Picasso was aiming for beauty? As for "profundity", that is much like beauty, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what is not profound to one, can be profound to another. Now for the "neither aiming nor achieving" part. Walk into many an art gallery and you will find works that the artist was clearly not aiming for nor achieving something remotely profound.
Games are a work of art.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
I agree and I think in x years when this period is written in history, many will have considered the MMORPG as a reflection of our society.
It's both an art and a craft...with a bit of science thrown in, so it's basically alchemy or sorcery..Black arts? I think they must worship the devil.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Yes but almost anything can be art. A child's fingerpainting is just as much "art" as the Mona Lisa. We only differentiate them by subjectively judged quality and perceived cultural significance. So unless you're going to argue that people who make games have absolutely no creative intent they are definitely art. Whether many of them are *good* art is an entirely different question.