How does "horizontal" progression work best?

MMOExposed · October 2014

First of all, I would like to start off this discussion by asking, what exactly is Horizontal progression in a MMO?

And what's the best methods of it?

How does Horizontal progression work in PvP?

How does Horizontal Progression work in Instanced PvE and Open World PvE?

Bladestrom · October 2014

Horizontal does not destroy the viability of its own content through an ever increasing player power level. Drastically reduced balancing issues affecting pve and pvp. less anti-social issues - lack of power and skill does not make you an inferior person to be ridiculed for e.g.

In horizontal its acceptable to use flavour builds with drastically wider utility skill sets, in vertical it's meta build or 'fail'

g0m0rrah · October 2014

Originally posted by MMOExposed
First of all, I would like to start off this discussion by asking, what exactly is Horizontal progression in a MMO?
Horizontal progression usually means a relatively flat power curve, increasing power incrementally instead of large leaps like you see in most MMO's.

And what's the best methods of it?

   There is no best method. You can have crafting, equipment, abilities, and skills all increase in small increments over a varied amount of time. The method depends on what you are trying to accomplish. When power is gained is small increments everyone can usually participate in almost any kind of content, that content will just require more players. Imagine a game where two level 30's are equivalent of a single level 60, now two level 30s can effectively complete content that a level 60 can solo. Now imagine an even flatter power curve where two level 30's is much more powerful than one level 60. You can now design content and PvP without having outrageous statistics being involved. A tighter grouping of numbers is usually easier to balance. When you are dealing with hundreds of thousands of health, the effect of increasing or decreasing numbers becomes cumbersome.

How does Horizontal progression work in PvP?

   If two lower levels can effectively fight a single higher level, players are much more inclined to try to defend themselves and friends due to victory seeming possible. When one level 60 can demolish 100 level 10's, players will simply refuse to engange, thus destroying what could be player created content and fun. The problem with most MMOrpg's is that they almost always want time involved to trump skill. I have played for 2 years so I should always win fights VS people with less time involved, which effectively stops new players from joining the game as time passes.

   As people get their friends involved in the game they are usually required to create new characters or they cant effectively participate in content with that friend. Making a new character that you dont really care to play, simply to play content and help a friend get to where he can play with your main effectively is a turn off to a lot of gamers. Mentoring systems are a decent idea but you still end up usually mentoring down in levels, thus wasting time none the less.



How does Horizontal Progression work in Instanced PvE and Open World PvE?

    Instead of worrying about designing many instances for a variety of levels, you can focus more on designing instances that can always be used regardless of level. These instances can now be geared toward different group sizes instead of level ranges. You could design a series of high level 2 man instances that a larger group of lower leveled players can now accomplish. Imagine having an instance that two level 60s or three level 30's can complete. Having three level 30s should open up a greater variety of abilities to the group where two level 60's have less variety but a bit more powerful abilities at their disposal.

    Imagine if every instance and raid in WoW was available at near all levels of power. The amount of content available for a max level character would be immense. It amazes me how much content is simply wasted as time goes by.

Rydeson · October 2014

Originally posted by g0m0rrah
Originally posted by MMOExposed
First of all, I would like to start off this discussion by asking, what exactly is Horizontal progression in a MMO?
Horizontal progression usually means a relatively flat power curve, increasing power incrementally instead of large leaps like you see in most MMO's.

And what's the best methods of it?

   There is no best method. You can have crafting, equipment, abilities, and skills all increase in small increments over a varied amount of time. The method depends on what you are trying to accomplish. When power is gained is small increments everyone can usually participate in almost any kind of content, that content will just require more players. Imagine a game where two level 30's are equivalent of a single level 60, now two level 30s can effectively complete content that a level 60 can solo. Now imagine an even flatter power curve where two level 30's is much more powerful than one level 60. You can now design content and PvP without having outrageous statistics being involved. A tighter grouping of numbers is usually easier to balance. When you are dealing with hundreds of thousands of health, the effect of increasing or decreasing numbers becomes cumbersome.

I absolutely agree.. I had once did a spread sheet on horizontal progression and it was very much like you described.. Lvl 60's as you call it can not go around one-shotting everything. I don't remember the exactly percentage I used and layout, but the power curve was roughly 1% per level.. So by the time you were maxed level, you still had to be careful with 2 newbies taking you out.. My designed instead focused more on achievements and goals (90%), and less on vertical progression.. After playing so many MMO's since the 90's I dislike any formula that segregates the community from veteran vs. newbie and/or alts..

How does Horizontal progression work in PvP?

   If two lower levels can effectively fight a single higher level, players are much more inclined to try to defend themselves and friends due to victory seeming possible. When one level 60 can demolish 100 level 10's, players will simply refuse to engange, thus destroying what could be player created content and fun. The problem with most MMOrpg's is that they almost always want time involved to trump skill. I have played for 2 years so I should always win fights VS people with less time involved, which effectively stops new players from joining the game as time passes. BINGOOOOOOO

   As people get their friends involved in the game they are usually required to create new characters or they cant effectively participate in content with that friend. Making a new character that you dont really care to play, simply to play content and help a friend get to where he can play with your main effectively is a turn off to a lot of gamers. Mentoring systems are a decent idea but you still end up usually mentoring down in levels, thus wasting time none the less.



How does Horizontal Progression work in Instanced PvE and Open World PvE?

    Instead of worrying about designing many instances for a variety of levels, you can focus more on designing instances that can always be used regardless of level. These instances can now be geared toward different group sizes instead of level ranges. You could design a series of high level 2 man instances that a larger group of lower leveled players can now accomplish. Imagine having an instance that two level 60s or three level 30's can complete. Having three level 30s should open up a greater variety of abilities to the group where two level 60's have less variety but a bit more powerful abilities at their disposal.

    Imagine if every instance and raid in WoW was available at near all levels of power. The amount of content available for a max level character would be immense. It amazes me how much content is simply wasted as time goes by.

You and I are reading the same page.. I would love to partner up with you in game designing so to speak.. I think what we believe is more socially acceptable and inclusive in nature, then games today that are too exclusive.. I like game designs that bring communities together, rather it be veterans or newbies.. Take WoW for example, look how much game world is wasted because you outgrow the content..

asdar · October 2014

Darkfall was an example of horizontal progression, but it was flawed. I think it was the stats that did it.

In that game if you were both naked and both had the same bow and arrows hypothetically you were supposed to be very close to the same. In Darkfall that wasn't quite the case because you would gain stats such as strength or melee resistance from doing things like swimming or fighting or pretty much anything. Still, I think it's as close an example of Horizontal as there is.

You could also raise the archery skill to 100, and then there was another whole archery tree, so it wasn't a perfect example, but... it's along the concept path.

I think if they did it right, which to me would be Darkfall, not DFUW, with a substantially lower stat cap so that using a skill did improve your character, but not so substantially that people ran macro's to build up the stats then it would be the best.

It works great for PvP if what you want is competition. I've seen a skilled DF player that just started beat two higher experienced players in gear. In any other MMO I know of either one of the two could have beat him with no chance going to the new player.

I think it works great for PvE too because the game is exciting right from the start. In most MMO the first 20+ levels are sooooooo easy, but not in a horizontal game that's done right. After EQ I think Darkfall had the best PvE I've played. The mobs attacked if they saw you, or if you let one run. It was challenging from the low level.

CrazKanuk · October 2014

The issue I have with horizontal progression is that it's always done in a way that gives the illusion of freedom, but it really doesn't mean true freedom. There's all the grind of a vertical progression system with none of that great feeling that you actually ARE progressing.

Second point, I think that regardless of the type of progression, the feeling of progression must always be present to some extent. Also, I think that people are becoming less and less fond of grinding out levels. This is where horizontal progression could actually have an advantage over vertical progression in the long run. The real question is whether or not someone can create a horizontal progression system that requires work to be "at the top", but is very accessible to new players, reducing the barrier to entry. That's one thing that can't really be done with vertical progression.

Hyanmen · October 2014

Originally posted by MMOExposed

And what's the best methods of it?

It works best when the devs don't care about the players that quit to come back. It destroys the concept of catching up but it is not so important in all cases. It is the best method to go with for the players that never quit and keep playing constantly over-time. For the devs it is usually more financially important to care about the players that take breaks however.

Nadia · October 2014

i thought original Guild Wars did a great job at horizontal progression

- all gear had the same max stats available to everyone

- level cap of 20, if you wanted to go straight to pvp, could be instant 20

- vast majority of the game content and expansion chapters were designed for level 20

- everyone was dual classed, but you could stick with only a primary class if wanted

- progression was measured by skill collecting, player titles, vanity armors and misc cosmetics

- plenty of skill combo theorycrafting, you could only actively have 8 skills out of a collection of over 1000 skills

g0m0rrah · October 2014

Originally posted by Rydeson

You and I are reading the same page.. I would love to partner up with you in game designing so to speak.. I think what we believe is more socially acceptable and inclusive in nature, then games today that are too exclusive.. I like game designs that bring communities together, rather it be veterans or newbies.. Take WoW for example, look how much game world is wasted because you outgrow the content..

I wish I had coding skills. I toss ideas around all day, maybe its time I got off my ass and learned something. It would be fun to get a small group of people and make a game.

Iselin · October 2014

"Horizontal progression" is a misnomer used typically to define alternate forms of limited vertical progression.

A true horizontal progression would mean that the same bunny that can kill you in the tutorial in your first minutes of game play, has just as much of chance to kill you after you play the game for a year... fun, eh?

Quirhid · October 2014

Originally posted by Iselin
"Horizontal progression" is a misnomer used typically to define alternate forms of limited vertical progression.

A true horizontal progression would mean that the same bunny that can kill you in the tutorial in your first minutes of game play, has just as much of chance to kill you after you play the game for a year... fun, eh?

Very true.

+1

Kyleran · October 2014

Originally posted by Nadia

i thought original Guild Wars did a great job at horizontal progression

- all gear had the same max stats available to everyone

- level cap of 20, if you wanted to go straight to pvp, could be instant 20

- vast majority of the game content and expansion chapters were designed for level 20

- everyone was dual classed, but you could stick with only a primary class if wanted

- progression was measured by skill collecting, player titles, vanity armors and misc cosmetics

- plenty of skill combo theorycrafting, you could only actively have 8 skills out of a collection of over 1000 skills

Which is why I loathed GW1, there was no "progression" to speak of, titles, vanity armors, etc are of no interest to me, I play games for power or ability progression and once that comes to a halt (or degenerates into a gear grind) I quickly exit the game.

Gaining more abilities might have been good, but the limitation to only 8 per build is not something I like, I enjoy having a bar full of abilities I get to chose from. (not a fan of skill combo theorycrafting)

I guess that is EVE's appeal to me, the progression never stops, and it really isn't endlessly vertical, and in fact is perhaps the best example of horizontal progression I've found that remains interesting to me.

While totally new players of course are at a strong disadvantage, in a certain period of time this shrinks to be almost meaningless within set ship classes or activities since you can reach the same cap in them that everyone else has.

Originally posted by Iselin

"Horizontal progression" is a misnomer used typically to define alternate forms of limited vertical progression.

A true horizontal progression would mean that the same bunny that can kill you in the tutorial in your first minutes of game play, has just as much of chance to kill you after you play the game for a year... fun, eh?

I think for this to work, you'd have to find a way to make every ability in a game something that it it takes actual player skill to accomplish. Meaning in addition to things such as dodging, rolling or blocking, you need to find a way to make it so combat or healing spells took some sort of actual effort that players could practice and get good at over time.

Then when you faced a bunny when first starting out, your actual skill at swinging a small sword or shooting a bow might be so poor you might continually miss it and be unable to kill it, while after much practice you would kill in one blow.

Think back to the times of early airplane flying or fighter simulations, it was a real effort to try and land them, and I have to confess I never really mastered it, I usually set it to auto land to save from crashing all the time.

So same here, you might run into a Wyrven as a noob, and get killed relentlessly. Heck, even after you became a master at weapons you might still only be able to kill it if you and a dozen friends got together and the combined skill of all of you eventually took it down.

Thing is, while archery can be made difficult by adding real world physics to flight and aiming, how does one make magic casting a challenge. Of course you can add aiming just like archery, and not auto homing but what else could be added to give the player something enough to practice mastering that it took a decent amount of time to learn it?

I suppose you could do away with magic completely and restrict combat to strictly melee and archery, or restrict magic to things such as buffing or healing perhaps.

One idea I just had, you know the mechanic they use in ESO to open locked chests and how you learn to improve how to do it over time? Perhaps something like that could be added for magic spell, you have to complete the proper sequence in the right order (like Vanguard crafting maybe) to successfully cast the spell. Just a thought.

Iselin · October 2014

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Iselin

"Horizontal progression" is a misnomer used typically to define alternate forms of limited vertical progression.

A true horizontal progression would mean that the same bunny that can kill you in the tutorial in your first minutes of game play, has just as much of chance to kill you after you play the game for a year... fun, eh?

I think for this to work, you'd have to find a way to make every ability in a game something that it it takes actual player skill to accomplish. Meaning in addition to things such as dodging, rolling or blocking, you need to find a way to make it so combat or healing spells took some sort of actual effort that players could practice and get good at over time.

Then when you faced a bunny when first starting out, your actual skill at swinging a small sword or shooting a bow might be so poor you might continually miss it and be unable to kill it, while after much practice you would kill in one blow.

Think back to the times of early airplane flying or fighter simulations, it was a real effort to try and land them, and I have to confess I never really mastered it, I usually set it to auto land to save from crashing all the time.

So same here, you might run into a Wyrven as a noob, and get killed relentlessly. Heck, even after you became a master at weapons you might still only be able to kill it if you and a dozen friends got together and the combined skill of all of you eventually took it down.

Thing is, while archery can be made difficult by adding real world physics to flight and aiming, how does one make magic casting a challenge. Of course you can add aiming just like archery, and not auto homing but what else could be added to give the player something enough to practice mastering that it took a decent amount of time to learn it?

I suppose you could do away with magic completely and restrict combat to strictly melee and archery, or restrict magic to things such as buffing or healing perhaps.

One idea I just had, you know the mechanic they use in ESO to open locked chests and how you learn to improve how to do it over time? Perhaps something like that could be added for magic spell, you have to complete the proper sequence in the right order (like Vanguard crafting maybe) to successfully cast the spell. Just a thought.

Those are actually very good points (and your experience and mine with flight sims seems about the same ) but what you're describing is a progression based on your mastery of the game mechanics.

I associate that type of individual progression much more with other genres such as FPS, side scrollers and other "arcade" types of games... although admitedly, the trend these days for RPGs and MMOs is for fusing the genres together by adding more physical dexterity to the mix - something I'm not all that fond of actually since my old reflexes just ain't what they used to be.

Having said that, I do want to see more variety in MMO character development and progression: I'm rather tired of the "leveling" systems with all of their abstractions. I'm always on the lookout for new ideas that simulate increased competence in other ways.

Or maybe even bringing back new ideas with new twists such as the old vanilla WOW experienced-based weapon skill advancement but making it less exploitable and applicable to every thing you do.

It would be nice to advance "organically" without class restrictions by discovering new skills through game play (REAL quests, rare NPC masters, etc.) and unlimited advancement (with some diminishing returns, of course) of the abilities you actually use... be they combat, building or crafting abilities.

Pepeq · October 2014

Horizontal and vertical are both linear progression, you're just changing the direction from vertical to horizontal.

To be honest, most games follow a circular progression... you start at zero, reach max whatever, then are back to square one again (technically zero, only they usually just reset the minimum level to whatever the maximum was and progress from there). And it too, is linear.

You're looking for a debate on non-linear versus linear progression... and quite frankly, you can't have progression without it being linear. You may follow a snake like pattern, do several loopty-loops, but in the end, you started out in one place and ended up in another... point A to B. Linear.

Multiple paths? Still linear.

Progression is by definition, linear.

Quirhid · October 2014

Originally posted by Pepeq
Horizontal and vertical are both linear progression, you're just changing the direction from vertical to horizontal.

To be honest, most games follow a circular progression... you start at zero, reach max whatever, then are back to square one again (technically zero, only they usually just reset the minimum level to whatever the maximum was and progress from there). And it too, is linear.

You're looking for a debate on non-linear versus linear progression... and quite frankly, you can't have progression without it being linear. You may follow a snake like pattern, do several loopty-loops, but in the end, you started out in one place and ended up in another... point A to B. Linear.

Multiple paths? Still linear.

Progression is by definition, linear.

You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means.

Bladestrom · October 2014

Horizontal progression is not linear. Example take armor aspect : my progression in year 1 is armor set 1& 5, in year 2 I got for armor set 2,7,9,11. In Year 3 I go for set 4, and focus on rare dyes for sets 1,2,4.

Helleri · October 2014

Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Iselin
"Horizontal progression" is a misnomer used typically to define alternate forms of limited vertical progression.

A true horizontal progression would mean that the same bunny that can kill you in the tutorial in your first minutes of game play, has just as much of chance to kill you after you play the game for a year... fun, eh?

Very true.

+1

Agreed...I think a better way to put "Horizontal Progression" might be "Even Distribution of Content." We can call it EDC for short. What it really consists of is small seemingly inconsequential decisions that have massive impact depending on which way a developer chooses to go on them. Or simply fails to notice the potential harm or good of.

Example:

When raising the cap and adding a new tier of gear at the top. Developers need to also make it so that, crafting the new gear still requires some refined version of materials that are readily available at the lowest levels of play. Possibly rescaling the drops to make sure that lower leveled players grinding low level areas. Are a lot more likely to receive the raw materials that will work their way up the chain, through various levels of material refinement. This means that the entry level of the game still has a lot to contribute to the end game.

But, if the developers make it so this new gear can only be made with high level mats that a new player will never see until they are at that point in the game. What they are doing is creating a disconnect. A point in the game where the efforts of as much as 95% of the player base becomes useless to those at the top.

Ultimately, It's having a focus on not letting new content make old content obsolete. And, a lot of that comes through attention to minor details like in the example given above. And, while it can be about combat. It can't be exclusively about combat. But, more then that it's working under a strict code. Asking one's self crucial questions when ever a chance is made, like:

How does this effect the rest of the game?

If potentially negative how can we safe guard against that?

Is there a piece of content that can be updated or revamped to be improved by the proposed change?

I think it is a work ethic and way of doing things, less then any one thing you can point to as a good example of it. Without that persistence in asking the same questions over and over again. Any attempt at implementing it will come off as a generic emulation of what was seen somewhere else first. And, it will be largely ineffectual.

Sephastus · October 2014

Let me take a stab at this...

Progression means that you advance from something deemed less, to something a bit more.

When we speak about "linear" progression in MMORPGs, we normally mean the act of leveling up.

When you speak about "horizontal" progression in MMORPGs, we normally mean, while staying at the same level, gaining more power or viability by the acquisition of Armor, weapons, skills, and abilities.

With that out of the way: there are games (not necessarily MMORPGs) that already make great use of horizontal progression. Monster Hunter, for example, is all based on horizontal progression, and the learning of encounters. You could give a new player the most advanced weapons and armor, and he could still die to the first few bosses... or you could give a pro basic weapons and armor, and he could hold his own against even the strongest of opponents.

The problem with horizontal progression: extreme mudflation or stagnation over the years. Why? If you continually add more powerful items or skills, eventually those at the top have WAY to much power vs a new or returning player. While if you don't add more powerful items or skills, the game becomes stagnant. The way around this for Monster Hunter is very simple... they are make new versions of monster hunter and everyone starts again at zero. (The full online version of MH has extreme mudflation problems where the newest weapons and armors allows you to one shot earlier bosses...)

Helleri · October 2014

Originally posted by Sephastus
Let me take a stab at this...

Progression means that you advance from something deemed less, to something a bit more.

When we speak about "linear" progression in MMORPGs, we normally mean the act of leveling up.

When you speak about "horizontal" progression in MMORPGs, we normally mean, while staying at the same level, gaining more power or viability by the acquisition of Armor, weapons, skills, and abilities.

With that out of the way: there are games (not necessarily MMORPGs) that already make great use of horizontal progression. Monster Hunter, for example, is all based on horizontal progression, and the learning of encounters. You could give a new player the most advanced weapons and armor, and he could still die to the first few bosses... or you could give a pro basic weapons and armor, and he could hold his own against even the strongest of opponents.

The problem with horizontal progression: extreme mudflation or stagnation over the years. Why? If you continually add more powerful items or skills, eventually those at the top have WAY to much power vs a new or returning player. While if you don't add more powerful items or skills, the game becomes stagnant. The way around this for Monster Hunter is very simple... they are make new versions of monster hunter and everyone starts again at zero. (The full online version of MH has extreme mudflation problems where the newest weapons and armors allows you to one shot earlier bosses...)

That doesn't make sense to me because if actual experience is all that is required to do well in this game. Then why does new equipment even matter? If a newb can do horribly in the best gear a high level can do really good in the worst gear. then the gear would be pointless...

I am on the side of the fence where I think horizontal progression is not a real thing. I believe it is an aspect of an entirely different thing being perceived through the lens of a misnomer which muddies what is actually going on. And I think that is the case because every time I see it tried to be applied to something as a thing it falls a little flat in one way or another (like this previous post. sounds good until you really look at it).

Sephastus · October 2014

Originally posted by Helleri
Originally posted by Sephastus
Let me take a stab at this...

Progression means that you advance from something deemed less, to something a bit more.

When we speak about "linear" progression in MMORPGs, we normally mean the act of leveling up.

When you speak about "horizontal" progression in MMORPGs, we normally mean, while staying at the same level, gaining more power or viability by the acquisition of Armor, weapons, skills, and abilities.

With that out of the way: there are games (not necessarily MMORPGs) that already make great use of horizontal progression. Monster Hunter, for example, is all based on horizontal progression, and the learning of encounters. You could give a new player the most advanced weapons and armor, and he could still die to the first few bosses... or you could give a pro basic weapons and armor, and he could hold his own against even the strongest of opponents.

The problem with horizontal progression: extreme mudflation or stagnation over the years. Why? If you continually add more powerful items or skills, eventually those at the top have WAY to much power vs a new or returning player. While if you don't add more powerful items or skills, the game becomes stagnant. The way around this for Monster Hunter is very simple... they are make new versions of monster hunter and everyone starts again at zero. (The full online version of MH has extreme mudflation problems where the newest weapons and armors allows you to one shot earlier bosses...)

That doesn't make sense to me because if actual experience is all that is required to do well in this game. Then why does new equipment even matter? If a newb can do horribly in the best gear a high level can do really good in the worst gear. then the gear would be pointless...

I am on the side of the fence where I think horizontal progression is not a real thing. I believe it is an aspect of an entirely different thing being perceived through the lens of a misnomer which muddies what is actually going on. And I think that is the case because every time I see it tried to be applied to something as a thing it falls a little flat in one way or another (like this previous post. sounds good until you really look at it).

The reason it doesn't appear to make sense to you, is because you are outside looking in. Look at a bell chart... on one end is the new player, while on the other end is the elite pro. The mayority of the players will be between those 2 extremes, and to them, gear progression is a MUST to be able to do newer encounters, since they WILL be getting hit, they WILL be dying, but at the same time, they WILL be learning. Eventually they will get close to, or become and elite pro, if they don't give up and jump games along the way.

Back on topic though, horizontal progression is definitely a real thing. In EQ, for example, they added AA (Alternate Advancements). These gave the person stats, abilities and other things in which they could "Advance" their character without increasing in levels. One of the advantages of horizontal progression, is that content remains viable for longer, since you are not outleveling it.

Apraxis · October 2014

Originally posted by g0m0rrah
Originally posted by MMOExposed
First of all, I would like to start off this discussion by asking, what exactly is Horizontal progression in a MMO?
Horizontal progression usually means a relatively flat power curve, increasing power incrementally instead of large leaps like you see in most MMO's.

Actually not. However in games called as more horizontal progression this is often the case, because a lot of players want some vertical progression.. just not much.. and the incrementally steps is still vertical progression.. just the power gap.. the amount of vertical progression is not much.

So what is actually horizontal progression. Progression without increasing power, hitpoints, stats.

As a simple example.. if you start and do have a magic missle spell for 10 dmg. You next step would basicly the next spell fireball with 5 dmg and around 5 dmg over time(actually a little bit more over time, because 10 dmg now is better than 10 dmg over time.. but for the sake of it.. that both do have the same dmg, but once as pike dmg and the other as more sustained dmg. And the next spell would be a root, then a snare or what ever.. but bottom line all spells are in the exact same dmg range and are useful all the time, because you don't inrease the power(vertical progression), but instead increase the tactical options, the range of tools.

The same with any other skills.. now you can use a sword later you learn melee, axes, bows or whatever.. all that is horizontal progression.

Hitpoint, Dmg or Stat(Agility, attackspeed, movement speed and all that buzz) is vertical progression.. everything with giving you more options is horizontal progression.

Most games do have both.. but nowadays a lot do have heavy vertical progression.. so that just one lvl above and you don't have a chance winning.. ten level above and you do not even any dmg..

Or like in GW2 Lvl 1 100 Hitpoints.. lvl 50 20000 Hitpoints.. just ridiculous vertical progression.

And what's the best methods of it?

Skills and abilities. But they should be actually different. More of the same just with another color or special effect is not really another option. New shiny stuff(without changing stats) is nice and good.. but alone is for most(including me) just not good enough. What methods are there, too?

How does Horizontal progression work in PvP?

Basicly it gives you more tools, it gives you more tactical options.. and withit most of the time an edge over the other player without creating an unwinable situations.

How does Horizontal Progression work in Instanced PvE and Open World PvE?

The same way as in pvp. You have to beat the harder content with better teamwork, with better tactics, with better use of your available abilities.. and not just with enough stats. In a lot of single player games this happens all the time you don't get more hitpoints or that stuff.. the enemies become more difficult, the content becomes more difficult and you have then actually improve your gameplay, tactics to beat the game.

and

Originally posted by Iselin
"Horizontal progression" is a misnomer used typically to define alternate forms of limited vertical progression.

A true horizontal progression would mean that the same bunny that can kill you in the tutorial in your first minutes of game play, has just as much of chance to kill you after you play the game for a year... fun, eh?

Well.. looking at the quote above you would be right.. but that's not really horizontal progression as you said.

But you are wrong with the bunny. Because you gain a few things on the road without using any vertical progression

a) knowledge. After some time you know the behaivor of the bunny, you know how many it can take, or dish out.

b) Horizontal progression. You do have more tools to beat that bunny. And with a) knowledge you do have a lot easier game to beat up that bunny.. but yeap.. if you play that bad as in the beginning the bunny will beat you.

However. I personally would add some vertical progression to the mix. Just not a lot. UO was not that bad in that regard.. and just for comparsion:

GW2: LVL1 200 HP; Max Level 20000+ HP

UO: LVL1 20-40 HP(depending of how you distributed your stats); Max HP 100.

In GW2 you do have a factor of 100+ as in a lot of other very vertical progression games, too. And in UO you do have only a factor of around 3. And in my mind a factor of 2 would be more than enough.

Bladestrom · October 2014

Re bunny model, in horizontal you can slaughter that bunny with your wide skill set, but it will kill you if your not careful. A swarm of bunnies could still slaughter you. In vertical, you can eventually kite a million bunnies and 1 shot them all while taking hardly any dmg.

I find bunnies with a chance to kill me more fun than 1 million bunnies I can 1 shot.

Helleri · October 2014

Originally posted by Bladestrom
Re bunny model, in horizontal you can slaughter that bunny with your wide skill set, but it will kill you if your not careful. A swarm of bunnies could still slaughter you. In vertical, you can eventually kite a million bunnies and 1 shot them all while taking hardly any dmg.

I find bunnies with a chance to kill me more fun than 1 million bunnies I can 1 shot.

I recall facing an actual swarm of bunnies as a boss minion summon once in an MMORPG.

nariusseldon · October 2014

Originally posted by Bladestrom
Re bunny model, in horizontal you can slaughter that bunny with your wide skill set, but it will kill you if your not careful. A swarm of bunnies could still slaughter you. In vertical, you can eventually kite a million bunnies and 1 shot them all while taking hardly any dmg.

I find bunnies with a chance to kill me more fun than 1 million bunnies I can 1 shot.

nah ... you don't need horizontal progression to get that. It is just a matter of calibration.

D3 is the pinnacle of vertical progression, and you can easily kill by trash if not careful (at appropriate difficulty, of course).

waynejr2 · October 2014

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Horizontal does not destroy the viability of its own content through an ever increasing player power level. Drastically reduced balancing issues affecting pve and pvp. less anti-social issues - lack of power and skill does not make you an inferior person to be ridiculed for e.g.

In horizontal its acceptable to use flavour builds with drastically wider utility skill sets, in vertical it's meta build or 'fail'

And the great thing about that is we can run that same content day after day for five years. That is so much better than getting fresh content.

Hrimnir · October 2014

The entire term horizontal progression is contradictory. I really do wanna smack whoever came up with the idea.

progression

noun

1.

the act of progressing; forward or onward movement.

By definition you can't have horizontal progression.

Regardless, in the context of MMO's and its implementation. Horizontal progression typically involves unlocking different types of weapons or abilities, that do not do more dmg, but different things. i.e. one might start out with a simple sword attack that is a single target dmg ability that does sa 100dmg, and unlock a single target Damage over Time ability that does 150dmg. Later he may unlock an AoE ability that does 50dmg to up to 3 targets in an area, etc etc.

The idea is you never get something "better" just "different".

This IMO could work in a strictly PVP based MMO where equality and balance are required.

In a PVE mmo its just flat stupid. It completely defeats the purpose of one of the base tenets of RPG's. Your character is supposed to get more powerful, via levels, stats, items, etc.

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How does "horizontal" progression work best?

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

progression