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The MMO is Dead

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  • BoneserinoBoneserino Member UncommonPosts: 1,764
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    Agree with OP completely.  I also love how many people in this thread have tried the standard method of redefining what an MMORPG is so they can argue that its not in fact dead.

    The MMORPG is dead.  Its plain and simple.  What we have now, call them whatever you want, are not MMORPGs.

    The new term should be MSOQRPGCWPT's.

    Or Massively Single Player Online Quasi Role Playing Games with Chat Windows and Participation Trophies.

    Are people doing that, or are you simply basing the criteria of a genre on a select game or direction you wanted? All genres are filled with games of differing (or even opposing) designs.

    Nope.  Been playing MMO's since 2000, started with EQ and have played just about every AAA MMO that's released since.  So, I have a nice solid basis on which to form my opinion.

    Then it must be true.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,726


    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    This is NOT about 1 game here gone

    Neaither is about perception and preferences of 1 person...

  • KamofilaKamofila Member UncommonPosts: 113

    I would say the depth is gone, replaced with graphics and shiny things meant to make you spend more than the 15$ a month sub that used to a be a standard. Now you have f2p games where you can still sub but where they still seem to release cash shop items to grab your attention and get you throwing more money.  Give is back our shitty graphics and massive depth of gameplay and a 15$ a month sub with no cash shop and all be happy.

    Does anybody even remember how long it took to get to level 50 in EQ at launch?  Most people nowadays would quit before they hit max (or would still be xping and having just as much fun getting there).   All the f2p, all the cash shop, all the mmo-hoping, all the negativity and all the crap could have been avoided if mmo's had not lost one simple factor, DEPTH.

    Do you like lollipops? Suck it. Don't bite you greedy twit.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    I didn't like the old MMORPGs. I much prefer the new ones although I'm not currently playing anything. My default state is not playing any MMORPGs so when I'm not playing a MMORPG I don't need to get upset and go on a tantrum over the interwebz on it.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • IsilithTehrothIsilithTehroth Member UncommonPosts: 454

    I agree with the whole mmorpgs are dead, but not in the sense that they aren't garnering players. We have huge amounts of nomadic players these days, due to the growth in the gaming and the mmo genre. Now why is it dead then you might ask? Those reasons correlates to the migrators that jump from each new mmo that releases; because of stagnant and oversaturation.

    Pre WoW, we didn't have as many choices as we do now, but we had much, much more complex games(Aside from the graphics and some fps elements). From Planetside 1 and Ultima online, to Starwars galaxies; where choice, consequence and actions impacted the game world. Where there were so many different options of things to do in the game and no insta-gratification guides and spread sheets to follow, that one could take a path unique and unhindered by most aspects modern mmos have.

    Yes there is some reminiscing about past mmo's, but for the most part they were made for mmorpg players by mmorpgs; not people that got into gaming to just earn profits. Old mmorpgs had their own unique feel from each other, through graphics, gameplay and everything in-between.

    After the old mmos; we then dawned upon the cash cow, modern mmo that spawned when WoW reach the pinnacle of success and ushered in a formula system that almost every mmo followed afterwards. Companies offered gimmicks and empty promises on completely new features and aspects of the game, but always opted out at the last second due to pressure imposed by the suits that did not want to deviate from the formula. Thus it offers very few differences between WoW and itself. The games shifted to end game content being the best part of the game, and forgo any sense of bonding with your character during the leveling process(I even rush through leveling these days).

    Some of the changes were in the right direction such as action combat from AoC and Dcuo, but ended up sinking in other parts of the game, such as end game content, lack of promised features, bugs, glitches, exploits and nothing else to do after leveling other than pvp that didn't have consequences and the gear tread. Along with dumbing down of gameplay and core elements, these games did not try to improve and opted to make money via f2p cash shops.

    We got a few indie titles like Darkfall online, (which admittedly is one of my favorite) and others like All points bulletin that tried to do things differently, but were plagued with Indie company mistakes and/or too much catering to their cash cows the casual crowd. Things like hacking, incompetence, bugs, lack of polish and in-depth gameplay to certain things, repetitive gameplay, Huge grinds and in APB's case completely bottoming out of their company that led to the failing of these games.

    I'd still be playing DFO(despites its many glaring flaws) if not for Aventurine opting to create the garbage version called DF: unholy wars and alienating most of their player base and ruining the game.

    Next we got even shadier indie sandbox mmorpg games that tried to be unique, but failed on so many levels like Xyson, Mortal online amongst others that were so plagued by flaws that rendered them unplayable.

    Then perhaps the worse thing that has happened; the cash shops, were introduced and applied to most of the failed titles and to the newly released ones. These try to make you buy from them at any, and all costs and impact the game to such a degree that all aspects suffer, from community to gameplay. Mmo's that should and could have been great like Planetside 2 left a bitter and disappointed tasted in your mouth due to SoE chasing the almightly dollar from the casual crowd, instead of pandering to their Ps1 veterans. F2p cash shop games instead of letting a horrible mmo die; instead allows them to generate revenue from all the gullible players that think they are actually not spending money as they purchase 10 $5 payments of an item per week.

    Now we are left with themepark WoW- mold mmo's that won't die because they go F2p and casual players that hardly play; spend money keeping the game from dying like it should. Ie: SWTOR. Now we all have to suffer the f2p element because of this is now the norm due to the casual, themepark crowd.

    ---------------------------

    Despite this, we have gradually seen a change in the past couple years. Themepark is dying at an alarming rate, and the retention rate for such games is so miserable AAA companies have taken notice. Now we are finally get sandbox mmo's to become mainstream once again, with improved graphics and features in some areas(Voxel building/Terraforming for instance), but still not quite as good in other regards as old mmos. Once the AAA companies have tested the waters and make profit, we will see more bold endeavors from both indie companies and AAA. So with the bad comes the good. It may take 5 years or more, but we may once see improvement again and from that the continue evolving of the genre.

    -Personal quip:

    I think the evolved form of the genre is fps combat, with a complete sandbox setting where players have complete freedom in the game world to sculpt, define, and engage in it. Where politics influence players decisions and actions have consequences. Whether in the form of loss land, gear, or some tangible form. Yes there are tons of carebear players that don't want loss of any kind, but a huge amount of them are slowly adapting risk vs rewards elements through various other games. A mmorpg  where each game play type, crafting, pver, explorer, pvper, player politic, or what have you has equal fun gameplay mechanics and impacts, with a grind nether too vast or miniscule, with a skill cap that rewards relying on other players and not being a master of all trades, lone wolf. A game similar to Starcitizen. Although I have my doubts it can be pulled off with this game. We shall wait and see.

    MurderHerd

  • hatefulpeacehatefulpeace Member UncommonPosts: 621
    Originally posted by vidiotking

    Archeage was the nail in the coffin for me. SWG was the pinnacle.

    P2W options, advanced bots/hacks, small & instanced worlds, easy/everyone can win gameplay and cash shops are just some of the reasons this genre is over.

    I know you can never "go back". But EQ and SWG were magical, and had it right. EQ was actually dangerous, and SWG was a living breathing, player built world.

    Where are these types of games today?

    I've been playing single player rts.....

    Your not alone lol. That is to the t is what happened to me. I downloaded Archeage hoping for something, as we both know got garbage. I bought Distant worlds lol.... The only MMO i play now is star trek online, not for any good gameplay it has lol, just because it kinda in some aspects has new star trek episodes to watch. If SWGEMU comes out thats where ill be, if not then ill go to shadowbane, if that doesnt work out lol, well there always is another hobby lol. 

    I def agree though, those 2 games you refer to were in a time before the masses, and the big corporations got there hands on it. Its akin to the discovery channel which is no garbage. Back in the day when those games were out and about, the community was totally different. Now everything is just a big corporate grinder, trying to grab as much money as it can. Even the indie people, and their kick starters are all money. I dont get a sense any more from any of these games coming out, that the people running them care in the slightest about the game, or what it means as a creation, other then if it gets people to hit that buy button. 

    Games like star citizen and ulitma online 2 or shroud of steal your money, really make me sick. Trying to sell worthless garbage, for outrageous amounts. I mean serious in one post, some one said hurry and buy the new ship for a game that isnt out, or even close, for 750 bucks its worth it.............. So when you got a market with insane people willing, to throw apparently money all over, for no reason. This is what we get. 

    You dont see the car industry going, here ill sell you a make believe seat cover for your car, that may or may not exist in 2016, and they have no idea what that said car is going to look like or have in 2016, but here just buy your special seat cover now. Lol i better shut up, or some one is gonna start that haha. If there are people dumb enough to buy 750 special make believe ships, I am sure there would be some one willing to pay 750 for early access car seats haha.  So when you see them do that, just remember they stole the idea from me and mmos haha. 

  • majimaji Member UncommonPosts: 2,091

    They're not dead, their quality has just declined.

    The developers have three options:

    1) Build an indie MMORPG.

    2) Build a high quality MMORPG.

    3) Build an MMORPG that attempts to milk players from even before it's finished.

     

    The third option is these days the most profitable.

    Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)

    Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)

  • IzikIzik Member Posts: 111

    The original MMO is dead for sure. The industry has completely shifted since 2004 because of WoW. To get back the "original" feeling of the old school Mmorpg a game would have to have certain requirements. Such as:

     

    1. No questing. Mob grinding and non-linear dungeons to level.

    2. Forced grouping. Or extremely limited solo progression.

    3. Huge expansive world with actual dangers.

    4. Death penalties. XP loss, Item loss, Corpse loss...etc, etc.

    5. Slow progression to max level. Slow: as in months and months to max level.

     

    Problem is I'm not sure how popular it would be nowadays. I think the best way to start would be to force people to group. Solo play has got to go. These games are now basically single player experiences with a chat room.

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Member UncommonPosts: 2,377

    My 2 cents :

    -the mmog player has become more experienced. What  was entertaining is no more

    -mmogs have become very expensive to make. Big company won't take chances....they point to what got consumers to spend in the past and say "thats safe ground to build on" (WILDSTAR anyone)

    -consumers have been willing to spend too much of their money on crap.....So what do they get served next   > C _ _ P.

    -the poor world economy is causing discretionary spending to be more closely scrutinized

    -game development decision makers look to yesterday as the answer to tomorrow......and their job security

    -game companies have been persuaded to develop their products to the "give it to me now"  whiners

     

    The future.....

    -new ways to fund  young new game companies will open up innovation...on occasion

    -game consumers and companies need to see more blood(lost investment money)....more failure....to force some few risk takers who will lead  some of the game developer "followers" out of their developmental malaise.

    and all of this

    hasn't been, and won't be pretty to experience.

  • BigbooBigboo Member Posts: 201

    I dont belive its dead yet. But the road is somehow a walk down the dead mans alley.

    My opinion is that genre will be a split in two branches. One for the "fast and furious" gamer, where more, faster, bigger is the goal. Like a King of the Hill e-game, they call themselves "Hard core". The other Group will be more laidback, call them casuals, where RPG and long time experience, emersion is important. Blizzard tried some of that in MOP where the message from day 1 was "Slow down, slow down".

    Blizzard has announced 10 more years of WOW, and with the cancelation of Titan, we probably will se a more waterdown WOW over the years. It has already started in earlier exp and in WOD it will be more removal of stats and abilities.

    Im a casual gamer, dont have that much time for long boring grinding and high top level raiding (I do love raiding with my guild).

    We are their customers, and in the end we will be the ones that decide. We will in the end vote with our wallets.

    But I can agree that this year have been a year of big disappointment. Im not a satisfied customer. PC gaming is not dead but some MMOs will be.

    ----

    ----

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,088

    Walking down a dead mans alley sounds pretty dead to me. :)

    Bill in his latest MMOFTW asks where are the great new titles coming out? Its good to see that after all this time some journos in the industry are facing up to the issues.

    Many of us on here started to address these concerns over five years ago, about two years before Lotro came out the direction of travel became clear to me. What you have to do is not base what you think is happening in the industry on what its like now. Think about what it was like ten years ago, what it is like now and draw a line through the data points to show you where its going.

    How much money its earning is not a good indicator of quality and sustainability in the entertainment sector. That sort of snapshot view is what blinkers so many.

    Not only is the MMO dead, it died years ago, Lotro was a last hurrah. And within four years in had become a decent hybrid P2P/F2P MMO. A year after that it was a MMO with a payment model that bought gameplay for cash. That's how MMOs work now if they don't start of as F2P MMOs. The baulk now  start as games were you buy gameplay and gamble at the casino.

    Join the dots...a monthly payment model to gamebreaking cash purchases and casino gambling. Do you think it will stop there? Of course it won't. As we speak executives are planning other ways to generate more money from this perverse system.

    Join the dots...large open worlds to small, instanced areas. The rise of formats which call themselves MMO's but are not true 3D, not over the shoulder. Do you think it will stop there? Of course it won't. Expect 'MMO's' to become smaller, more on tram lines, more about nothing else but levelling.

    I have not covered here why this has happened, but we have gone over that many times before.

    If this were to happen in the movie industry we would be only watching films shot on a shoestring budget with shaky camera work, no outdoor locations, no story and poorly developed characterisation. But they would not be able to sell that to the film going public. They did sell it to gamers, that's what's so sad about all this.

    RIP MMO's we will never forget you.

     

     

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,509


    Originally posted by Gdemami

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    This is NOT about 1 game here gone
    Neaither is about perception and preferences of 1 person...
    yadda yadda yadda...

    Yea, *I'm* the ONLY player who feels this way. Have you read the thread, or just picking out 8 words from a longer post by ONE person and making your "assumptions?" Feel better now?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,899

    I think the AAA MMORPG is pretty much done... I can't see many past EQN being made, unless that game hits big on the consoles. They are too much risk, no longer fashionable, and you have to deal with a shitty player base that doesn't for the most part want to pay you any money for your 4 years and $40+ million investment.

    Easier to make tablet/ mobile games tbh.

    I think this is a good thing though... I think the genre does need to get out of the mainstream and back to grassroots passionate development in order to rediscover what it is.

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Gw2 came out a couple years ago and is doing well, and is a quality game.

    Swtor came out last -same as above.

    FF rereleased and is doing very well.

    Eso came out this year -same as above.

    And these are only AAA games, the genre is overflowing with games, including indie titles. The genre isn't dying, what we have is people who dont realise they have outgrown the genre, and think the answer is to change the genre.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • SoandsosoSoandsoso Member Posts: 533

    MMO

    Massive

    Multiplayer

    Online

     

    All words describing something but what is that something?

     

  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,783
    So when this thread dies, who wants to make the next "MMO's are dead" thread? Or should we just make them everyday just to make sure we have this base covered regularly, we wouldn't want to go without this riveting discussion about the death of MMO's.
  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,972
    Originally posted by Rusque
    So when this thread dies, who wants to make the next "MMO's are dead" thread? Or should we just make them everyday just to make sure we have this base covered regularly, we wouldn't want to go without this riveting discussion about the death of MMO's.

    I think once a week should suffice. 

  • CaldrinCaldrin Member UncommonPosts: 4,505
    Originally posted by vidiotking

    Archeage was the nail in the coffin for me. SWG was the pinnacle.

    P2W options, advanced bots/hacks, small & instanced worlds, easy/everyone can win gameplay and cash shops are just some of the reasons this genre is over.

    I know you can never "go back". But EQ and SWG were magical, and had it right. EQ was actually dangerous, and SWG was a living breathing, player built world.

    Where are these types of games today?

    I've been playing single player rts.....

    Then you are lucky as we will have The Repopulation to play soon feels a lot like SWG in many ways.

  • BravnikBravnik Member UncommonPosts: 155

    It's hard to have a living breathing world when it's 99% instanced. What is the point of doing anything when there is zero risk vs reward. Back in the days MMO's were challenging and fun and when you did kill that dragon and got your lootz you knew you earned it. Personally things like Death Runs, Mob Trains in dungeons, Wait lists for spawn points and KSing and being pissed because of it were all what made the MMO feel real.

    Today MMO's are created for the "I want it all now" crowd. There is no risk, reward is a cash shop or very little effort involved. Too much Easy Travel that allows you to skip most of the world. You can hit max level in days not months now. MMO's are just a game to garner your attention and developers don't really care if you play it or not they just want you to not cancel your subscription.

    EQ in the day was family. You knew people on the server not just your guild and your reputation was your life, Friends lists really were useful as you always had a ton of druids for travel and necros for corpse runs. When is the last time you seen a wedding in an MMO where the GM handed out cake and server wide people cheered you on? When was the last time you saw a GM run an adhock live event handing out special random prizes afterwards? You don't, hell most of you have no idea what the hell I'm talking about. EQ was not perfect for sure but it was more MMO than a game. Todays MMOs are just a game you play that has other people in it. There is no real interaction. You simply click here, go there, enter this instance and kills mobs stacked up like wood just for you and only you.

    They could take what was EQ and make it something special. No instances, no easy travel, no auction house, no mobs just for you and most of all no cash to play. It would be fantastic. However it's just a pipe dream. Casual players rule the day. Like I said above, the developers of games today will give you anything and everything you want just as long as you don't cancel your sub. That's all they care about.

  • rodingorodingo Member RarePosts: 2,867
    Originally posted by Forgrimm
    Originally posted by Rusque
    So when this thread dies, who wants to make the next "MMO's are dead" thread? Or should we just make them everyday just to make sure we have this base covered regularly, we wouldn't want to go without this riveting discussion about the death of MMO's.

    I think once a week should suffice. 

    Nah, I think this one should be stickied so we don't have to go searching for another doom and gloom post.  There are to many to keep track of.  Besides, all the Chicken Littles could also take comfort in knowing they will always have a home they can post at without having to compete with each other's past nostalgia and current MMO mechanics as proof as to why the genre is dying.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • SomeOldBlokeSomeOldBloke Member UncommonPosts: 2,167
    MMOs were doomed when they became mainstream and were no longer niche.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,078

    What... it's dead again?

     

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • ChannceChannce Member CommonPosts: 570
    Originally posted by umcorian

    Even Archeage, at its roots, is still a WoW Clone. Rather than 1-2 light innovations on the WoW model, it maybe has 4-5... and an end game that replaces raid bosses with a backpack. It's no surprise it's not working.

    Company's see this - no new WoW clones by big production have started development after SWTOR's initial bomb. TESO and Wildstar were the last Themeparks to finish up in the age of the dead WoW Clone... and their flopping only proved it further.

    New games are being developed that will be quite different from the WoW model. Everything I hear about EQ Next is very positive. And if that one doesn't catch on, the games after EQ Next will. 

    MMOs will never die, they'll just evolve. 

    As WoW was at it's roots a clone of EQ and DAoC.

    When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky


    You compare ONE game to a whole genre? My favorite MMORPG (City of Heroes) closed its doors. I'm fine with that, though sad. This is NOT about 1 game here gone, one game there closed down. This about a WHOLE GENRE that has changed for the worst, in my opinion.

    I must admit that it is not really the games' fault, but rather the players who "infest" them now who min/max everything and ruin the whole "spirit" of the genre. Yes, we've always min/maxers in MMORPGs, but not near the percentage today. Players who delight in telling others, "You're playing that wrong!"

    "worst" is subject ... as you already pointed out. It is just a matter of perspective. Worse for you .. better for many ... if not .. devs won't move the genre in this direction.

    And no one is at fault. We are talking about preferences of entertainment here .. not moral philosophy. So what if gamers want to min/max ... if that is fun to them, i don't see a problem.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Originally posted by Bravnik

    It's hard to have a living breathing world when it's 99% instanced. What is the point of doing anything when there is zero risk vs reward.

    Have fun in combat? Enjoy the solo content?

    What you do not realize is that "the point" for you may be different from other players. What is the point of FPS? What is the point of MOBA? What is the point of puzzle games? Same as MMOs ... to entertain some players who find the games fun.

     

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