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for me, i dont like leveling and in the most MMORPGs i dont know why you even have to level up, for me it just make no sense.
just my opinion.
would you enjoy a MMO without leveling? Or is leveling essential for you?
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You can't have a cake and eat it too..
- Albert Einstein
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
There are ways to increase character power without levels in my opinion. You could add skill, you could add flat attribute bonuses, unlock new capabilities, doesn't have to have a level attached.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I would prefer an MMO without levels and without stats attached to cosmetic gear.
What I want to see is a large (and ever-expanding) set of skills to hunt down and make builds with, as well as customization through sidegrade passives attached to non-visual equipment (such as accessories, runes, etc.).
But anything that increases in ability is leveling up. When you increase your stats you just leveled up your stats. Thus there would still be leveling. It just wouldn't be a number attached to your character's name.
The main reasons there are levels in RPGs and such huge power differences in MMOs between levels is because it provides a sense of accomplishment and reward. The higher leveled character feels like they accomplished something while the lower level player has more of a drive to catch up. That's the idea anyways though it doesn't work on everyone.
I enjoy the feeling of Progress that comes with leveling. It is kind of like a rite of passage.
However, I don't like long grinds. I think it should take as long as a substantial single player campaign (24-48 hours playtime)
I think the two games that do leveling best are Rift and Archeage. Rift because you can mentor down and with the new expansion, up. This allows you to play with all your friends despite what level they are, and you get benefits as well.
Archeage, the grind is real in terms of crafting, but leveling is a breeeeze, with multiple options to level. It is almost impossible to not engage in combat or do a quest once in awhile, but if you have time, labor, and mats.. you could craft out a level or two in a day no problem, and not engage a single enemy. Something like this with a quicker and varied route to max is preferable to me than a long grind.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
MMORPG's have always been based around character progression, either with the default levelling system that goes all the way back to P&P D&D or with a skill system, like those found in SWG or EVE.
Without character progression you basically have a char that can do everything right from creation, which is usually something more associated with FPS or MOBA games. These types of games, for me at least, are the ones you can play for half an hour and then drop, there's just no investment in the character.
In order for a MMORPG to feel like a proper MMORPG and not some sort of hybrid monstrosity I need some form of character progression. I prefer skill based to level based but it's still progression. MMORPG's were always designed to be played over a long period of time, years even. In order to keep people playing the devs needed something to get you invested in the character and the world, then you keep coming back. Without any kind of progression you may as well just play a MOBA.
I could do without overall levels myself. But as a previous poster mentioned, skills are what make an RPG. And, for me at least, are a great deal of fun to carefully plan and to develop. Because this is how you define a 'character' in these games.
However I'd think that those who are uncomfortable (or get bored) with concepts like individuality and inequality, who want nothing more to constantly duke it out on a chessboard full of pawns, would be a lot happier playing First Person Shooters or MOBAs. Yet MMORPGs are getting more bland and generic all the time. So keep up your complaining and maybe you'll succeed in getting what you want. That is, killing the RPG genre off.
Endless levelling is the way to go
For everything else
There are FPS
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Playing : Uncharted Waters Online
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- Albert Einstein
I prefer EVE or Perpetuum's skill based progression. Although there are still levels, Fallen Earth has a good skill based progression system.
The problem with levels is there is always an end game system and people saying 'the game begins at end game' which means the game fundamentally changes at that point. A better game design would be to have multiple types of progression and allow players to do what they choose immediately and not wait for XX number of levels to be able to do that. Games need the ability to progress your character in different ways. Unfortunately a great many gamers prefer the carrot and stick methodology with vertical progression and as been said earlier in this thread they do not see their character progress without levels.
For me, progression is extremely important for playing and RPG.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
My character has 10 skills/abilities but then learns a new skill/abilities taking the total to 11 skills. His number of skills/abilities has increased by 1 level.
Strength attribute goes from 15 to 16. The strength attribute has increased by 1 level.
Getting hung up on the word level rather than progression. You character progresses over time.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I enjoy the feeling of Progress that comes with leveling. It's a good goal to shoot for...
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
It's hard for me to imagine a system without leveling in an MMORPG. MMORPG are based off RPG (naturally). And, all RPG have their roots in D&D (Table top, not the Online Game). The first RPG were in fact an effort to make a Video Game version of D&D (a few early RPG actually got sued by Gary Gigex for copywright infringement). A level based system of progression, while not necessarily definitive of the genre is still fairly core to it.
Still there have been RPG which deviate from the formula (Legend of Zelda for the NES comes to mind). LoZ (as it is more commonly known as in short) uses heart cases in order to give the character more health. or effective toughness. And, you pick up gear as well which somewhat increases the power you have. But, mostly just your versatility. Even so, none of this is necessary to actually beat the game. There is a player invented challenge for LoZ called the 3 heart case challenge. The idea being that in order to prove LoZ skill over simple expertise, the player beats the game with what they started with (and key to this, elects to gain no more health in the process of doing so).
What makes it work is that at no point is there a type of tier or combat scaling that prohibits you from doing damage or avoiding having damage done. Like doing any more or less damage on one monster with a weapon, then you would on another with the same weapon. You have an attack miss you by getting out of the way of it.
Arguably. If you had two links from the original LoZ face off under player control, in a PvP situation. And, Player 1 had every bit of progression content there was. While Player 2. was at the starting defaults. Player 1. would have the natural advantage. But, if Player 1. has all those items and heart cases because they need it in order to do semi-well. And, Player 2. is at the starting default, because they can beat the game without anything extra. Then the playing field would essentially be level. And who wins is any ones guess.
So, while I find it difficult to imagine. Simply because the MMORPG is so steeped in this construct of level based progression. I don't think it is impossible. But, just like how MMORPG are based off preexisting RPG. In order to do it I think the best route to take, isn't to sample more dynamic features from existing MMORPG. And, try to form them into a single game. But, rather to take it back. To find an alternate source material for what you are building the MMORPG upon. To say. what does a game like LoZ look like as an MMORPG. How do we have two people play LoZ at once. Under the assumption that they may be just as likely to be enemies as they are allies. What do you need to alter about the game to make this work...That seems like a good starting point to me.
TSW does not have levels - the progress is measured by acquiring skills. To me there is something magical
though about leveling... the best thing would be if all content in MMO would scale to your level automatically.
Sith Warrior - Story of Hate and Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKrlwXt7Ao
Imperial Agent - Rise of Cipher Nine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBj3eJWBvU&feature=youtu.be
Imperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqjYYU128E
But that's still "leveling". And a grind.
If "end game" (and I don't really want a game with an "end game") is raids upon raids just to get gear then eventually you have the best gear so they throw in more raids so you can get more gear.
I fail to see the real difference other than doing the same raids over and over again for me would get stale. I actually lose interest in a game if all I can do at top level is get more gear by raiding over and over again.
I really liked Lineage 2's system where there wasn't really an end game "per se" and you basically just pvp'ed for whatever you wanted and leveling just made you a better geared player. And of course better skills.
Still, I can envision a more horizontal system.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Such a MMORPG exists, it's called EVE, play it and quit complaining.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I never understood why people take "leveling" as the primary component of an rpg. I would think that, you know, role playing is the focus? The problem is that MMO's do not actually focus on the role playing element.
You are death knight and you approach the evil boss and kill it just like every player before you and after you will, here is stuff, congratulations. In your party happens to be a paladin and your entire fucking existence goes against his religious belief system but hey, fuck it, its LOOOOT!
Maybe if a game came along and started you out with, lets say, nothing. You manage to scavenge or steal some food to survive. You find some fellow hood rats, one of which teaches you how to pick pockets. You put this skill to use gathering up enough cash to buy a cheap dagger, food, and some clothes. Some goblins attack the city. You scavenge through the corpses managing to gather some useful items. Holy shit, we have progression without leveling.
When leveling isnt a factor there is more reason to explore, quest, fight, craft, or do that thing that you would rather spend your time doing other than worrying about " am I high enough level to do that? ". There are a myriad of ways to add a feeling of progression to a game. When I play the forest, I feel much more immersed and like I am actually playing and RPG over lets say, WoW. I am doing things that will help me survive. I am exploring and building. I am fighting. I am not looking at an EXP bar.
Now personally I dont mind skill based games. As you swing that sword you probably should get better at it over time. The problem is the huge gap between level 1 and max level thats more annoying than beneficial to the player.
Why is it that leveling is considered the only method of progression appropriate for games. I read a book and every page feels like progression. I watch a movie and every second feels like progression. Every log I chop down in the Forest feels like progression. I believe what people really enjoy about mmo's is that they can create, build, or earn something that is there to use every single time they log in. I believe that is progression and I just dont see leveling being a requirement for it.