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[Column] ArcheAge: Trust Issues

2

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  • MarkJWMarkJW ColumnistMember Posts: 226
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by Superman0X

    Trion was aware that people use bots, sell gold and spam in game advertisements in online games (this is not their first game). However, they were not aware of the scale that this would happen, or of the quantiy and quality of the tools already avaialble to do this.

     

    This is the first time that Trion has published a game as a third party publisher (i.e. they dont own the game and dont have any rights to modify/look at the code). They really were not aware of how difficult this is. Nor were they aware of the vast differences in the markets that this game has already launched, and the (open) english market. I know that the developers were very re-assuring about how they blocked these types of tools, and how HackShield would keep the game safe. However, the reality was very different... and now they are learning the hard way.

     

    These type of issues (and others) are what prevents most publishers from being sucessful at third party publshing. Most try it once, get burned... and never do it again. Companies that can do this sucessfully often specialize in this, as it is extremely rare to find a company that do it well enought to make money. Third party publish is so hard that most companies never do it, do it once (then abandon it), or just go under because of the difficulty. It will be another year or so before we see how this works out for Trion.

     

    The better question is how did they not know?   A simple google search could easily find out how badly the client was being manipulated by players.   It took me all of 2 seconds to find out how the russian server was doing during Trions alpha testing.  

    Yes, this is the reason I never spent a dime on the game.    

    This is my point/question as well. How are XLGAMES and Trion so completely unaware or unable to prevent things they've supposedly known about for so long. If they didn't know about these issues, who was doing the research? Do they have a game security specialist on staff or do they just expect the engineers to do that work?

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,584
    Originally posted by MarkJW
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by Superman0X

    Trion was aware that people use bots, sell gold and spam in game advertisements in online games (this is not their first game). However, they were not aware of the scale that this would happen, or of the quantiy and quality of the tools already avaialble to do this.

     

    This is the first time that Trion has published a game as a third party publisher (i.e. they dont own the game and dont have any rights to modify/look at the code). They really were not aware of how difficult this is. Nor were they aware of the vast differences in the markets that this game has already launched, and the (open) english market. I know that the developers were very re-assuring about how they blocked these types of tools, and how HackShield would keep the game safe. However, the reality was very different... and now they are learning the hard way.

     

    These type of issues (and others) are what prevents most publishers from being sucessful at third party publshing. Most try it once, get burned... and never do it again. Companies that can do this sucessfully often specialize in this, as it is extremely rare to find a company that do it well enought to make money. Third party publish is so hard that most companies never do it, do it once (then abandon it), or just go under because of the difficulty. It will be another year or so before we see how this works out for Trion.

     

    The better question is how did they not know?   A simple google search could easily find out how badly the client was being manipulated by players.   It took me all of 2 seconds to find out how the russian server was doing during Trions alpha testing.  

    Yes, this is the reason I never spent a dime on the game.    

    This is my point/question as well. How are XLGAMES and Trion so completely unaware or unable to prevent things they've supposedly known about for so long. If they didn't know about these issues, who was doing the research? Do they have a game security specialist on staff or do they just expect the engineers to do that work?

    funny is they did know! alpha had this and we complained about it, even gold seller was in alpha, but trion wanted to lose time on mount "normalization" and auto cast in skills who shouldn't have it, also they lack of willinness to fix these don't help much.

     

    well on the bright side the number of people who just simple quit after these problem make they server load ok for now

    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • mbrodiembrodie Member RarePosts: 1,504
    You know... I bought up the issues of bots and hacks months ago and was cut down by all the rabid people who had yet to even play the game when I bought up combat being handled client side n how much of a terrible design flaw it was.

    But I got the tirade of knights telling me how Trion can change the game and they'll fix it and it'll be better because Trion will fix all the problems.

    And when I said they can't they won't have the rights too.

    I then got told yes they can, they have said they can.

    I hope you all realise now publishers spin PR to give players what they want to spend money.

    Game will fail just like in Korea and Russia.
  • deveilbladdeveilblad Member UncommonPosts: 193
    Originally posted by Pepeq
    Originally posted by Talonsin

    I really enjoy the game but the bot house-grab thing is out of control.  If you didnt get a house, chances are you will not be able to grab one unless you pay some botter.  Very disappointed in Trion over this.  If I had not already been able to grab my 24x24 plot, I would have dropped my sub.

    It is very sad that Trion seems to be powerless against this stuff even after knowing it was happening in Beta back in the spring.  Plenty of posts in the forums about it from back then and nothing has been done to correct it.  Kind of makes you wonder what goes on at Trion from a business standpoint.  Obviously more people who get land means more sub money coming in and yet they seem to have done little to ensure more people get land.  Its like they decided that too much money was a bad thing and took steps to ensure the game never reached its potential.

    Yes, we know that Trion is only the publisher but who publishes a game without checking it out and making sure it is maximized for profit? 

    Trion is the middle man... like a car salesman... they can sell you the car, but they can't re-engineer it.  The game is essentially the same game that is in Korea.  People assumed, wrongly, that Trion had some sort of control over the game itself.  They don't.  If there are bots in Korea, there will be bots here.  If there are hacks in Korea, there will be hacks here.  To put it bluntly, the only one who can fix the problems is XLGames.  They either choose not to or have yet to do so.  We are also not on the same patch as the Korean version, so who's to say if some of the problems won't be fixed in a later patch.  Again, Trion is merely a middle man.  You can blame them for server outages, lack of servers, perhaps even marketplace issues (we don't know to what extent this is controlled by XLGames), but pretty much nothing else.  They aren't in control of the game design.  All they did was localize it for westerners... as in change some Korean language to English.  That's it.  XLGames is the one driving the direction of this game, the only one.

    XLGames will not fix this for their version of the game. Video games are way more serious in Korea, you actually make online accounts with your national ID. If you get caught hacking or doing something against the ToS, permanent ID ban from the company, you'd have to steal someone's identity to play again...

    That's why they don't have to really care about hacking or botting over there, they just ban people and they can't log back in...ever. (except if they steal identities, which is way more serious and, if caught, will be put in jail/get a huuuuuge fine)

  • jacker1991jacker1991 Member UncommonPosts: 191
    Dam...I am loving this...
  • EcocesEcoces Member UncommonPosts: 879

    the game has so many good ideas and a lot of depth. Its just a shame how good this game could have been with a proper company behind it instead of XLGames.

     

    I mean if Trion had full control of patches instead of just getting the "hand me downs" from XLgames i bet it could have been huge.

  • EntinerintEntinerint Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Originally posted by zaberfangx
    Originally posted by Rhoklaw
    I don't care what anyone else says, F2P games make it way too easy for BOTs, Exploiter / Cheaters. It costs nothing to make a new account so short of an IP ban, this won't stop till they destroy the game.

    Eso is not free to play, they have so many problem with bots.

    Not any more.  They implemented a 24 hour limit of 3 character creates, put boss loot on a 10 minute timer, and the bots all but disappeared.

     

    Haven't seen a single one in ESO for months.

     
  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,935
    Nevermind.  Already stated.
  • AlalalaAlalala Member UncommonPosts: 314
    I played ArcheAge. 3 month sub. I canceled it, as AA is flush with cheats, hacks, spamming, bugs, and annoyances (like land distribution ).

    But what killed it for me was finally understanding that the piss-poor architecture of the client-side software and network packets was the culprit. That's why it has been vulnerable to hacks, that's why Trion / XLGAMES reacts and cannot prevent, that's why it was not fixed over the last years and won't be. The issues are foundational.


    Take my advice : Keep your wallet closed. Walk away. The unending flood of cheaters, hackers, spammers, and bots has buried a sublime game in a deep pile of shit.
  • BrynnBrynn Member Posts: 345
    I think Archeage will see a big dropoff of customers when the next Patron charge is due. Those left playing will be the crafters and PvPers.
  • vazzarothvazzaroth Member Posts: 111
    Originally posted by Brynn
    I think Archeage will see a big dropoff of customers when the next Patron charge is due. Those left playing will be the crafters and PvPers.
     

    Isn't that.... everyone? At least the level 50's. PvP and crafting is the entire point of the game.

    I think it's far more likely that everyone who hasn't been able to get land will stop paying for anything (And stop playing) when the patron re-sub comes up. And currently, that's mostly everyone until they fix the land grab hack.

    --------------------------------
    -Been there, done that: Xsyon, WoW, EVE, Maplestory, City of Heroes, Guild Wars, Warhammer Online, FF11, Rift
    -Currently playing: Not MMOs
    -Wants to check out: SWTOR, Dark Millennium

  • RaapnaapRaapnaap Member UncommonPosts: 455

    This game turned out to be quite a disaster. It was just a massive cash grab, Trion was fully aware of the problems but is now just repeatedly using the "we cant change XYZ only XLGAMES can" card.

     

    So many shady business tricks as well, too many to list here. And they still haven't compensated founders for any of it (and apparently, never will).

     

    Guess I won't be paying Trion another cent ever again for any of their titles.

     
  • jacker1991jacker1991 Member UncommonPosts: 191
    Originally posted by raapnaap

    This game turned out to be quite a disaster. It was just a massive cash grab, Trion was fully aware of the problems but is now just repeatedly using the "we cant change XYZ only XLGAMES can" card.

     

    So many shady business tricks as well, too many to list here. And they still haven't compensated founders for any of it (and apparently, never will).

     

    Guess I won't be paying Trion another cent ever again for any of their titles.

     

    No such thing as shady business tricks, just stupid costumers. It happens all the time.

  • ChuckanarChuckanar Member UncommonPosts: 210
    I will not be resubbing due to the land issues. 
  • JeminaiJeminai Member UncommonPosts: 151
    lol.
    totally no confidence in Trion.
  • Sparr1Sparr1 Member Posts: 9
    And you really think if it was pay to play you think you would have no hacks you got to be joking, and you make me laugh. And you got to be really dumb to buy gold off of gold sellers , you lose your account, it gets hack ,your  cridit card get hack ,yes blame it on the free to play players. If you put out money before you try a game good luck to you and stop crying.  I have a new truck 2016 if you want to put a down payment on it, yes just stupid costumers really.
  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,988
    Originally posted by Sparr1
    And you really think if it was pay to play you think you would have no hacks you got to be joking, and you make me laugh. And you got to be really dumb to buy gold off of gold sellers , you lose your account, it gets hack ,your  cridit card get hack ,yes blame it on the free to play players. If you put out money before you try a game good luck to you and stop crying.  I have a new truck 2016 if you want to put a down payment on it, yes just stupid costumers really.

    Actually the community manager of the AA Forums confirmed botters paid for Alpha access with his thread with 16K banned (right!).

     

  • AthisarAthisar Member UncommonPosts: 666
    In alpha/beta Trion clearly got hacked as there were hundreds of people complaining that they didn't play the game but had been charged for the Archeum pack using their card/paypal info on their account. That's likely where all the bots came from.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by Talonsin

    If publishers have no control then why does everyone hate EA?  Why do people blame SOE for Vanguards issues? 

    ...because those people are clueless? Because pointing fingers =/= facts?


    Just because Trion rises a request towards XLGames does not mean Trion has any control over matters.

  • kinkyJalepenokinkyJalepeno Member UncommonPosts: 1,044
    Originally posted by Ecoces

    the game has so many good ideas and a lot of depth. Its just a shame how good this game could have been with a proper company behind it instead of XLGames.

     

    I mean if Trion had full control of patches instead of just getting the "hand me downs" from XLgames i bet it could have been huge.

    This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  Oh so this....  Maybe another developer will rip the good parts from AA and do a proper job at a AAA MMO along the same lines...

  • MitaraMitara Member UncommonPosts: 755
    Look on the bright side : Whatever Trion comes up with next time, it can really only get better....
  • MitaraMitara Member UncommonPosts: 755
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by Mitara

    Trion was well aware of the problems with the game. That is why they charged $150 for the alpha version.

    They earned the money they needed to earn, before the game was officially launched.

    Just business...

    Sounds like a broken record doesn't it?

     

    lol yep :)

  • Shinken_01Shinken_01 Member UncommonPosts: 9

    Glad I was able to sell my account so it is not a total los...

    Will play the game, but never will put any money anymore into it.

  • JJ82JJ82 Member UncommonPosts: 1,258
    Originally posted by Superman0X

    Trion was aware that people use bots, sell gold and spam in game advertisements in online games (this is not their first game). However, they were not aware of the scale that this would happen, or of the quantiy and quality of the tools already avaialble to do this.

    If true, it shows how inept they are because this was known long before they even started their alpha testing. This game was available in other markets, with a major bot problem and tons of programs/exploits being used in Korea and Russia. Japanese players don't cheat like this so wasn't an issue there.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • Varex12Varex12 Member CommonPosts: 357
    Originally posted by Ecoces

    the game has so many good ideas and a lot of depth. Its just a shame how good this game could have been with a proper company behind it instead of XLGames.

     

    I mean if Trion had full control of patches instead of just getting the "hand me downs" from XLgames i bet it could have been huge.

    You have way more faith in Trion than I do.  If just having the publishing rights was too much for them to handle, I can't imagine what a mess it would be if they were allowed any actual input.  

    Trion is in over their heads.  

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