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Is Gaming Leaving Gamers Behind? [linked article]

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Beatnik59
     

     

     

    It would be a lot easier to take all of this more seriously if instead of talking about the person who made the videos you talked about the content of the videos.  It would help if you discussed the response to her videos in more detail rather than her response to that response, which included death threats that the FBI felt were credible.  Maybe discuss how all of that relates to the video game genre expanding to start including more people from all walks of life and how the much smaller segment of gamers now feels disenfranchised.

     

    But no, you blame the response to one set of videos on her, and even there you imply that she's not even responsible for her own thoughts.  Me thinks you have focused a little too much attention on one person to be taken seriously.

     

    Here is a simplified version of how I see it after I had watched one of her videos

    Vbloger:  'here is a list of all the video games with a male lead, here is a list of video games with a female lead'

    Commmunity 1: 'how DARE you...you bitch!'

     

    end ..full stop.

    it makes no sense.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,144
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    I do not think anyone is going to look at me and think, "Buff" anything.

    gameaphile!

    yeah it pretty much ticks me off when the media can convince large number of people that a word inapproate so then we have to find another word that means the same fucking thing just so we can communicate.

    like..sandbox

    Isn't gameaphilia illegal in 15 states? imageimage

    The media convincing the mass public of things and conclusions they wouldn't have otherwise drawn is pretty much their entire job.

    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • udonudon Member UncommonPosts: 1,803
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by Raelln
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    like what? terraforming? advanced farming maybe? oh wait I know, animal husbandry right?

    no..I know...classes!....lol

    I can see you are really interested in having a meaningful conversation.

    I'd list a few new features that have shown up in content patches/expansions/new game releases but I have a feeling you'll just deride them claiming they were insignificant or damaging to the genre.

    wait..i know day night cycle!

     

    sorry I know this will sound sarcastic and an advertisement but its not

    'sorry bro I play Wurm and that increases the baseline for feature expectations tremendously, there is nothing new from the mainstream MMO world'

    I think "there is nothing new from the mainstream MMO world that I like" is a better way to put it.  For instance personal story, full motion video cut scenes and use of phasing to tell a more detailed personal story are all examples of things from the mainstream market (because they cost a ton to make) that like it or hate it you can't deny is new.

    Markets change over time and evolve or stagnate and die.  It sucks if your one of the people who liked things the way they are and is great if you are one of the people who the market opens up to include.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by Raelln
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    like what? terraforming? advanced farming maybe? oh wait I know, animal husbandry right?

    no..I know...classes!....lol

    I can see you are really interested in having a meaningful conversation.

    I'd list a few new features that have shown up in content patches/expansions/new game releases but I have a feeling you'll just deride them claiming they were insignificant or damaging to the genre.

    wait..i know day night cycle!

     

    sorry I know this will sound sarcastic and an advertisement but its not

    'sorry bro I play Wurm and that increases the baseline for feature expectations tremendously, there is nothing new from the mainstream MMO world'

    I think "there is nothing new from the mainstream MMO world that I like" is a better way to put it.  For instance personal story, full motion video cut scenes and use of phasing to tell a more detailed personal story are all examples of things from the mainstream market (because they cost a ton to make) that like it or hate it you can't deny is new.

    Markets change over time and evolve or stagnate and die.  It sucks if your one of the people who liked things the way they are and is great if you are one of the people who the market opens up to include.

    it is true that I dont care about such features but let me give you a specific example of what I am talking about so maybe you can understand.

    I bought ArcheAge, I was questing along so that I could get to level 50 to experience all the boats and stuff like that. Mind you I have experience ship combat in MMOs before, Darkfall in 2009.

    Now while playing the game I was reminded on EQ2 back in 2005. Then it hit me like a rock. Wait...this is 2014 and this game feels exactly like EQ2 back in 2005.

     

    Does that put any finer point on it at all?

    Regardless if it does or not it doesnt really matter. what DOES matter is that in my head (regardless of its right or not) it FEELS to me that indie games are more innovative than mainstream and you are talking to a guy who has Oculus Rift Dk1 and DK2 and is a developer himself. On the diffusion of innovation curve I am pretty close to the 'innovation' side so to suggest I left mainstream MMOs because I am a lagard is hysterical to me.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Me thinks you have focused a little too much attention on one person to be taken seriously.

     

    Brother, if that were the case pretty much everyone on every side of this whole "gamers are over" cluster-fack shouldn't be taken seriously.  One might even say that everybody in this whole event isn't responsible for their decisions per se; they are just falling back on their knee-jerk reactions to the detriment of any useful progress.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by Acidon
    Originally posted by Harafnir

    Weird analogy, and weird thinking. "Its like movies, but only science fiction! Now its all kinds of movies!" The correct analogy would be:

    Ffor 50 years a group of people have loved going to the movies, to see all kinds of stories. Then, suddenly compaines start to focus on a new consumer group, an untapped market to see where that will lead. So they begin to make movies for people that do not like movies. And it is quite succesful, a lot of people that do not like movies and do not have the attention span to sit still and actually watch the movie for any length of time, suddenly start to buy tickets. Only problem is, all the people that actually did like movies have very few movies to see nowadays. And they get upset not a single company care about the actual movie lovers, and they feel they have nothing to see that is not catered to uninterested people with a short attention span.

     

    In short... We wanted more Easy Rider, Star Wars and The Iron Cross. Instead we have a full market with slightly different American Pie.

    There is a more correct movie analogy

    Excellent analogy.  Very well put.

    I tend to agree with the direction the OP was going.  There aren't enough of us "old guard" to matter to the money men, and that is understandable from a business point of view.  It's very unfortunate, for the few, but I would go as far as to say it was inevitable.  I guess I'm less bitter these days because I've finally come to accept what happened a decade ago.  Yeah it took me a while.  I'm still bitter.. Just less so.

    As I have said before, though it's a very unpopular thing to say, if you weren't around for the firsts you just can't fully understand how much better the communities were and how much better online gaming was.  No matter how much you want that not to be true, it is.

    I hold no contempt for the new generation of 'gamers'.  Not anymore anyway.  I just tell things like they are.

     

    I've been cynical too, but I still believe in the place where you can live a life of your own design, rather than the one you are stuck with.

     

    MMOs were a liberation...liberation from scripted plots, liberation from necessity, liberation from your own condition.  You could be who you wanted to be...human or orc, male or female, good or evil--and everything in between.  You could do more than live in your world...you could build your world and build your own stories.

     

    Somewhere along the way, all the things that we thought got left behind got put back in...scripted plots, anonymity, "life on rails."  Somewhere along the way, these things became rote.

     

    But I still believe in the dream, because it is simply too good not to do eventually.  Technology and apathy with other formats will help bring it about, eventually.  I'm sure of that.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,970

    His article was very weak because it used bad analogies and is just far far off base to what gaming is really like and what it has been for the past 30 years,i know because i have been there from the start.

    Gaming has ALWAYS had versatility it was NEVER one dimensional type games so his analogies and assumptions are baseless.

    Also he was using a stereotype to form an opinion but again gaming has NEVER been about any certain stereotypical person.I can use myself as an example i was basically a pure jock gaming was remotely on my list but i still dabbled in it when i had spare time.

    Gaming is not only not growing up is is almost completely stagnant with very few changes in each genre and is more often flooded with games that are going backwards in time .

    IMO the ONLY thing that has happened in the gaming circle over the past 10 years is that more and more gamer's are more knowledgeable because of internet and just having played so many different type games.Also more and more people are understanding game design and what developers can and can't do.

    In the distant past competition was small so you could do whatever and make a go of it.Now competition is fierce and predictability is almost impossible.Now they make money not with gaming but a lot more with marketing and cash shop gimmicks,games being designed specifically around rmt gaming,so that part of the culture/design has changed while very little else has.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by Beatnik59
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Me thinks you have focused a little too much attention on one person to be taken seriously.

     

    Brother, if that were the case pretty much everyone on every side of this whole "gamers are over" cluster-fack shouldn't be taken seriously.  One might even say that everybody in this whole event isn't responsible for their decisions per se; they are just falling back on their knee-jerk reactions to the detriment of any useful progress.

     

    Most of them shouldn't be taken seriously. 

     

    If there is a problem with the article, the arguments made in the article, or in the arguments made in the articles referenced in the article, then point them out.  By all means, test them.  That's how we get to real information and real discussions.  It's no good to point out all the flaws in the gaming industry without noting all the ways it is far more progressive than other industries.  That's how we make progress. 

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,345


    Originally posted by Nadia
    related to her conclusion(Videogames) are becoming simply another medium—one with no inherent bias towards any group. In twenty years, it may sound as old-fashioned to call someone a “gamer” as it is to call someone a “moviegoer”.disagree with her conclusion, 
    a common phrase with boardgaming meetups are "go unplugged" - play boardgames
    implying a negative bias with video gamesvideogames will always be a subculture  (as will be boardgaming)in my biased opinion, from 40 years ago,Pong in the 70s had a similar subculture to anyone playing WOW or Grand Theft Auto 5

    What video are you folks watching? I looked her up on YouTube and she has a LOT of videos on her channel.

    Could someone link it, please? (Or did I miss the link in an earlier post?)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,345


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Nadia

    Originally posted by lizardbones
    You don't spend billions of dollars on a sub-culture.
    guess it depends on your definition of subcultureI think console gamers are a subculture -- and thats a billion dollar industry
    I think both sides have a point.On one side it is a multi-billion dollar industry that is growing and will before to long be an activity that everyone does now and again like TV.However, gaming is my hobby and I put a ton of time into it. More than any hobby my parents or grandparents had. So with that if I cant call myself a gamer what am I supposed to be called?
    How does mobile gaming fit in? I sure do see a lot of people with their noses buried in their cell phones, not always posting on Facebook. Does this make gaming more mainstream?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Beatnik59
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Me thinks you have focused a little too much attention on one person to be taken seriously.

     

    Brother, if that were the case pretty much everyone on every side of this whole "gamers are over" cluster-fack shouldn't be taken seriously.  One might even say that everybody in this whole event isn't responsible for their decisions per se; they are just falling back on their knee-jerk reactions to the detriment of any useful progress.

     

    Most of them shouldn't be taken seriously. 

     

    If there is a problem with the article, the arguments made in the article, or in the arguments made in the articles referenced in the article, then point them out.  By all means, test them.  That's how we get to real information and real discussions.  It's no good to point out all the flaws in the gaming industry without noting all the ways it is far more progressive than other industries.  That's how we make progress. 

     

     

    Well, the big problem I see is that gaming has, for the better part of ten years now, bent over backwards to design games that women not only want, but play rather fanatically.

     

    Think of the kinds of genres that exist today that didn't exist ten years ago...you have the "homesteading game" (Farmville).  You have the dance genre (Dance, Dance Revolution).  You have fashion games like JoJo's Fashion Show (the game I'm most embarrassed to say I enjoy).  You even have games with narrative plots (Nancy Drew) and puzzle series (Jewel Quest).  Plus, you have games on tablets and phones which are very appreciated by women (Angry Birds).

     

    To say that the game industry only appeals to a small segment of male-dominated tastes is simply not true.  Gaming has, even to its detriment at times, designed games for a diverse set of tastes and customers.

     

    One game in particular, Contrast, was an indie attempt to produce an action/adventure/puzzle game with a theme about the importance of family, care and the issues surrounding daughters in single mother households that I thought was really well done.  I played it, and I enjoyed it, for what it was.  It wasn't perfect, but it was good for what it was.  Regrettably, however, this wasn't a very popular game...probably because it wasn't marketed particularly well.  It was marketed like LA Noire rather than marketed to the girl gamers who would appreciate it...and they would appreciate it.  I would let my daughter play this game, and I bet she would love it...It gives girls just enough realism and sass, without going overboard into raunchiness.

     

    See, the problem with the kind of argument that I hear in the "gamers are over" diatribes is that they are claiming a problem exists with us, the male gamers, because we don't want to accept themes that are different than what we know.

     

    But the industry made it this way, not us.  They are the ones who gave up on the idea of men and women playing together in an action environment, not us.

     

    It was the industry that wanted to design games around "target audiences," not us.  It was the industry that gave up on the concept of the cosmopolitan MMO which appealed to diverse interests, not us.

     

    And the reason I can say this is because I played games like SWG and CoH, which appealed to women and gave women things they could do without (and this is important) creating an overtly sterilized environment for what boys and men want to do.

     

    So when the industry says things like we need to "make progress" and that "gamers are over," I'm wondering exactly what is being said.  Because it's obvious, to me, that we were making progress in the early 2000s with games like SWG, which allowed people who liked to craft or dance to play with people who liked to fight and pwn all, but the industry wanted no part of that kind of inclusiveness.  It put us all in silos, went full bore on designing games for women, stripped out MMOs of everything but combat.

     

    Instead, I see an industry that has a rather sterile, rather condescending notion of "progress" that has to do with taking out things like beautiful depictions of women (Bayonetta), sexual innuendo, violence against female avatars and the like...in other words, scrubbing down the content to appeal to the criticisms of those who are offended with such imagery on the promise (only a promise, mind you) that these measures will placate a female action/adventure demographic that is currently underserved.

     

    Except, of course, I'm not sure this demographic exists, and I'm not sure that even if it did exist, it shares the concern the industry claims it has.

     

    There's a healthy kind of progress and a sterile notion of progress.  The healthy kind of progress is what we were trying to do back in the early 2000s with MMOs, to make the games about diverse interests.  We ought to get back to that, rather than criticize things like prostitute NPCs, Kratos's abuse of women, scrubbing The Last of Us of any female zombies you can kill, taking issue that Fem Shep isn't treated different than Male Shep in the gameplay, and such.  Because that doesn't make the games more diverse.  It only placates interests that have nothing to do with diversity in games.

     

    That's my take on it.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by Beatnik59
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Beatnik59
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Me thinks you have focused a little too much attention on one person to be taken seriously.

     

    Brother, if that were the case pretty much everyone on every side of this whole "gamers are over" cluster-fack shouldn't be taken seriously.  One might even say that everybody in this whole event isn't responsible for their decisions per se; they are just falling back on their knee-jerk reactions to the detriment of any useful progress.

     

    Most of them shouldn't be taken seriously. 

     

    If there is a problem with the article, the arguments made in the article, or in the arguments made in the articles referenced in the article, then point them out.  By all means, test them.  That's how we get to real information and real discussions.  It's no good to point out all the flaws in the gaming industry without noting all the ways it is far more progressive than other industries.  That's how we make progress. 

     

     

    Well, the big problem I see is that gaming has, for the better part of ten years now, bent over backwards to design games that women not only want, but play rather fanatically.

     

    Think of the kinds of genres that exist today that didn't exist ten years ago...you have the "homesteading game" (Farmville).  You have the dance genre (Dance, Dance Revolution).  You have fashion games like JoJo's Fashion Show (the game I'm most embarrassed to say I enjoy).  You even have games with narrative plots (Nancy Drew) and puzzle series (Jewel Quest).  Plus, you have games on tablets and phones which are very appreciated by women (Angry Birds).

     

    To say that the game industry only appeals to a small segment of male-dominated tastes is simply not true.  Gaming has, even to its detriment at times, designed games for a diverse set of tastes and customers.

     

    One game in particular, Contrast, was an indie attempt to produce an action/adventure/puzzle game with a theme about the importance of family, care and the issues surrounding daughters in single mother households that I thought was really well done.  I played it, and I enjoyed it, for what it was.  It wasn't perfect, but it was good for what it was.  Regrettably, however, this wasn't a very popular game...probably because it wasn't marketed particularly well.  It was marketed like LA Noire rather than marketed to the girl gamers who would appreciate it...and they would appreciate it.  I would let my daughter play this game, and I bet she would love it...It gives girls just enough realism and sass, without going overboard into raunchiness.

     

    See, the problem with the kind of argument that I hear in the "gamers are over" diatribes is that they are claiming a problem exists with us, the male gamers, because we don't want to accept themes that are different than what we know.

     

    But the industry made it this way, not us.  They are the ones who gave up on the idea of men and women playing together in an action environment, not us.

     

    It was the industry that wanted to design games around "target audiences," not us.  It was the industry that gave up on the concept of the cosmopolitan MMO which appealed to diverse interests, not us.

     

    And the reason I can say this is because I played games like SWG and CoH, which appealed to women and gave women things they could do without (and this is important) creating an overtly sterilized environment for what boys and men want to do.

     

    So when the industry says things like we need to "make progress" and that "gamers are over," I'm wondering exactly what is being said.  Because it's obvious, to me, that we were making progress in the early 2000s with games like SWG, which allowed people who liked to craft or dance to play with people who liked to fight and pwn all, but the industry wanted no part of that kind of inclusiveness.  It put us all in silos, went full bore on designing games for women, stripped out MMOs of everything but combat.

     

    Instead, I see an industry that has a rather sterile, rather condescending notion of "progress" that has to do with taking out things like beautiful depictions of women (Bayonetta), sexual innuendo, violence against female avatars and the like...in other words, scrubbing down the content to appeal to the criticisms of those who are offended with such imagery on the promise (only a promise, mind you) that these measures will placate a female action/adventure demographic that is currently underserved.

     

    Except, of course, I'm not sure this demographic exists, and I'm not sure that even if it did exist, it shares the concern the industry claims it has.

     

    There's a healthy kind of progress and a sterile notion of progress.  The healthy kind of progress is what we were trying to do back in the early 2000s with MMOs, to make the games about diverse interests.  We ought to get back to that, rather than criticize things like prostitute NPCs, Kratos's abuse of women, scrubbing The Last of Us of any female zombies you can kill, taking issue that Fem Shep isn't treated different than Male Shep in the gameplay, and such.  Because that doesn't make the games more diverse.  It only placates interests that have nothing to do with diversity in games.

     

    That's my take on it.

     

    Why would you assume that women as a market want to play Farmville, or Sim Farm (released in 1993)?  Why wouldn't women enjoy a game like Quake or Deus Ex?  My daughter played through Deus Ex on whatever the hard mode is called an killed everything that moved.  The game world was a ghost town.  She had a lot of fun.  You make note of the fact that you are capable of liking different kinds of video games, why wouldn't women act like gamers in general and like different kinds of video games?  Given that there is game play in games like Deus Ex that women like, why shouldn't these games contain content to appeal to women?  Why should that content be segregated to specific games like Farmville?

     

    Contrast was not a great game.  It had issues out of the gate and as a single player game, that doesn't sell well.  Beautiful world, engaging characters, excellent story, but while the game play was a good idea, it was presented to the player in an obtuse manner, making puzzles that were easy to execute hard to figure out so instead of running around players ended up repeating the same thing over and over again or just sitting there staring at the screen.  If the game play was as good as the story or the setting, I think they would have been rolling in money.  But again, this assumes that because of the story, women should like this game.  Why would a female gamer like this game over e.g. Bioshock Infinite, when the game play is inferior?

     

    Writing games that appeal to women doesn't mean writing a game specifically target women (though, this isn't excluded), it means writing games that have content that appeal to a good many people, not just women or men.  If game play is the most important feature, then removing content that portrays women as just props and powerless shouldn't be a big deal and adding content that would appeal to more than just stereotypical men shouldn't be a big deal either.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     

    Why would you assume that women as a market want to play Farmville, or Sim Farm (released in 1993)?  Why wouldn't women enjoy a game like Quake or Deus Ex?  My daughter played through Deus Ex on whatever the hard mode is called an killed everything that moved.  The game world was a ghost town.  She had a lot of fun.  You make note of the fact that you are capable of liking different kinds of video games, why wouldn't women act like gamers in general and like different kinds of video games?  Given that there is game play in games like Deus Ex that women like, why shouldn't these games contain content to appeal to women?  Why should that content be segregated to specific games like Farmville?

     

    Contrast was not a great game.  It had issues out of the gate and as a single player game, that doesn't sell well.  Beautiful world, engaging characters, excellent story, but while the game play was a good idea, it was presented to the player in an obtuse manner, making puzzles that were easy to execute hard to figure out so instead of running around players ended up repeating the same thing over and over again or just sitting there staring at the screen.  If the game play was as good as the story or the setting, I think they would have been rolling in money.  But again, this assumes that because of the story, women should like this game.  Why would a female gamer like this game over e.g. Bioshock Infinite, when the game play is inferior?

     

    Writing games that appeal to women doesn't mean writing a game specifically target women (though, this isn't excluded), it means writing games that have content that appeal to a good many people, not just women or men.  If game play is the most important feature, then removing content that portrays women as just props and powerless shouldn't be a big deal and adding content that would appeal to more than just stereotypical men shouldn't be a big deal either.

     

     

    First of all, thank you for helping make this a more productive discussion.  I'll try and do the same.

     

    The reason why I'm assuming that 'women' as a market (note I place it in scare quotes, because it is an aggregate...of course there are exceptions) want to play sim games and puzzle games is because that's where they are and that's what they are buying.  Probably the greatest renaissance in women's gaming has been the app revolution, since the things women play are easily ported to lightweight apps.  Then again, I'm not sure that gaming is the only medium that can satisfy a female demographic on a (comparatively) shoestring budget.

     

    Take film, for example.  Studios know that females, generally speaking, enjoy quality literary dramas and comedies that place interpersonal relationships at the center.  The so-called 'chick flick' is cheap to film; it does not require huge pyrotechnics and special effects, post-hoc editing, epic casts of thousands of extras, etc.  If you get a few quality actors and a good script (those are key) you can create a wonderful, memorable story that women will enjoy.

     

    Now I'm going to agree with you about Contrast, mechanically speaking.  It was clunky, too short, and not as well developed as we would hope.  It surely could have been better, but still, if we are going to focus our attention on theme, imagery  and narrative (which is basically the criticism that is coming out of the "gamers are over" camp) it was an honest attempt at providing a game that talks about something other than blood, gore, machismo, etc.

     

    In fact, I think Contrast's shortcomings make the case, better than anything, that it might be a good idea to put more money, care and development time into games designed for women and girls.  You'll get no argument from me there.

     

    But this isn't the sort of message I get from the whole "gamers are over" argument.  It isn't  about developing high quality games for women and girls but, rather, about chastising male gamers for the things they enjoy...things like Saint's Row, Grand Theft Auto, God of War, etc.  What I hear is the argument that "game culture" (whatever that is...since women have, as I have shown, been a part of gaming for some time now) is:

    1)  Too mired in violent, sexist imagery and predispositions to be acceptable to the wider culture.

    2)  This violent, sexist imagery causes males to become violent and sexist (the key claim on which the entire critique rests).

    3)  That it is up to game developers and the gaming press to call these "gamers" out on their basal, unacceptable natures, and...

    4)  That the presence of women in gaming demands that the games males play ought to change out of respect for some politically correct standard of decency.

     

    This is not a new argument.  Film has been criticized for the same things for years now.  Quentin Tarantino, specifically, was called out numerous times for his raw, cynical, stereotypical views of women, his use of gratuitous violence, and his insensitive treatment of race and gender.  Games like Grand Theft Auto are in this tradition, and there is a place for them in our culture.

     

    What is even worse is when games which do attempt to go beyond traditional, cynical depictions of women and other genders are, nevertheless, criticized by the very people who ought to applaud the efforts (and I won't name names).  The criticism over the Mass Effect series from gender critics is, for me, shockingly irresponsible.  This is a game that has tackled issues of gender, sexuality, male and female role reversal, genderless societies, the question of masculine virtues and so on in a way that few--if any--game series ever dared to before.  But this just goes to show that when it comes to issues like "depictions of women," you will never please critics 100% of the time without designing something that will alienate more people than include.

     

    What solves the problem, to me, is one of three things:

    1)  Give women high quality narratives PLUS quality production values (something that Contrast attempted to do, but didn't do).

    or,

    2)  Give women a place in games males play, without having to sublimate their interests for the sake of male-type activities (the thing that we were on our way to doing in the early 2000s in MMOs, before we decided that these were games about combat).

    or,

    3)  Try to incorporate a message when you can (like in the Mass Effect series) without making the game overtly political and agenda-driven.

     

    Does any of this sound reasonable?

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • ClassicstarClassicstar Member UncommonPosts: 2,697

    These days it's all made for cash shops spoon fed generations so ez mode game play and as fast as they can no time to waste.

    It's all very sad but thats how it is we will never see a Asheron's call 1 or Shadowbane or even EQ 1.

    It's GAMEOVER for those who realy want hardcore gameplay don't mind timesink and hard work to get something or hardcore PvP with full loot.

    Thats why i stopped playing MMO'S after Darkfall 1 was ruined by ex wow and all who have same mentality(oh on side note all damn cheaters or gold buyers who also ruined it).

    I blame the gamers for downfall it's all YOUR FAULT and the gamemakers just adept to that.

    So now we have dumb down games and mmo's.

    The Witcher 3 is my last hope but have not much faith in that one eather.

    Also all those damn console ports and console crap made me sad as a PC gamer.

    Luckly have plenty old DRM free games on my PC so i play older games instead of all the new crap.

    Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!

    MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
    CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
    GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
    MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
    PSU:Corsair AX1200i
    OS:Windows 10 64bit

  • iridescenceiridescence Member UncommonPosts: 1,552
    Originally posted by Beatnik59
     

    But this isn't the sort of message I get from the whole "gamers are over" argument.  It isn't  about developing high quality games for women and girls but, rather, about chastising male gamers for the things they enjoy...things like Saint's Row, Grand Theft Auto, God of War, etc.  What I hear is the argument that "game culture" (whatever that is...since women have, as I have shown, been a part of gaming for some time now) is:

    Thing is I think a lot of male gamers are sick of those types of games as well. A lot of people of both genders want gaming to move on to be something more than a teenage male power fantasy (not that those games can't exist but give those of us who don't like that style more alternatives). Although this has become connected with a discussion of sexism I don't think sexism is the main or even only issue here. Suggesting that men just want Call of Duty knock offs in games seems as incorrect as saying women only play Farmville and similar crap. 

     

    Also just because Bioware games do some things well doesn't make them immune to criticism. The way those games portray "romance" is actually pretty icky (give a girl gifts and compliment her and she'll sleep with you after a few interactions. Yeah, great message there, BW)

     

     

     

     

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by Beatnik59
     

    But this isn't the sort of message I get from the whole "gamers are over" argument.  It isn't  about developing high quality games for women and girls but, rather, about chastising male gamers for the things they enjoy...things like Saint's Row, Grand Theft Auto, God of War, etc.  What I hear is the argument that "game culture" (whatever that is...since women have, as I have shown, been a part of gaming for some time now) is:

    Thing is I think a lot of male gamers are sick of those types of games as well. A lot of people of both genders want gaming to move on to be something more than a teenage male power fantasy (not that those games can't exist but give those of us who don't like that style more alternatives). Although this has become connected with a discussion of sexism I don't think sexism is the main or even only issue here. Suggesting that men just want Call of Duty knock offs in games seems as incorrect as saying women only play Farmville and similar crap. 

     

    Also just because Bioware games do some things well doesn't make them immune to criticism. The way those games portray "romance" is actually pretty icky (give a girl gifts and compliment her and she'll sleep with you after a few interactions. Yeah, great message there, BW)

     

     

     

     

    that is how I see it.

    Some gamers act as if someone says 'there should be more lead female roles' that it means 'all games should have female roles'. No...I think the main take away from all this stuff is that there simply is not enough variety in gaming. Those who think otherwise really have their head way up their ass. The vast majority of games are violent and fantasy or sci fi related. After a few decades of that I am bored with it. Time for more variety. and this DOES NOT mean we want to take away your violent games, we just want more options.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by Classicstar

    These days it's all made for cash shops spoon fed generations so ez mode game play and as fast as they can no time to waste.

    It's all very sad but thats how it is we will never see a Asheron's call 1 or Shadowbane or even EQ 1.

    It's GAMEOVER for those who realy want hardcore gameplay don't mind timesink and hard work to get something or hardcore PvP with full loot.

    Thats why i stopped playing MMO'S after Darkfall 1 was ruined by ex wow and all who have same mentality(oh on side note all damn cheaters or gold buyers who also ruined it).

    I blame the gamers for downfall it's all YOUR FAULT and the gamemakers just adept to that.

    So now we have dumb down games and mmo's.

    The Witcher 3 is my last hope but have not much faith in that one eather.

    Also all those damn console ports and console crap made me sad as a PC gamer.

    Luckly have plenty old DRM free games on my PC so i play older games instead of all the new crap.

     

    This is a lot more of what I was thinking when I mentioned MMORPGs.  For MMORPGs, "Growing Up" means appealing to a more connected audience, people who are playing games on their phones, which means there's going to be a change to the monetary systems  and the games' mechanics.

     

    Slightly off topic, but have you tried WildStar?  It seems that it is trying to hit a chord for hard core players, and a lot of players are unable to finish a lot of the content.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by iridescence

    Also just because Bioware games do some things well doesn't make them immune to criticism. The way those games portray "romance" is actually pretty icky (give a girl gifts and compliment her and she'll sleep with you after a few interactions. Yeah, great message there, BW)

    If we look beyond the romance mechanics, take a look at the dynamics of the world:

     

    1)  The most unrestrained, masculine species is also the one that is on the brink of extinction (the Krogan)

    2)  The matriarchal society is also the most scientific society (the Salarians)

    3)  The wisest, most enlightened society is a lesbian collective (the Asari)

    4)  The galaxy's "guard dog" species can't function without guidance from the Council (the Turians)

    5)  The nomadic species' most prominent exemplar is a female engineer (Tali of the Quarians)

    6)  Gays and lesbians are portrayed as serious, fully functional members of society who do their duty well (Cortez and Traynor)

    7)  The toughest, most dedicated soldier in the Alliance is a woman (Ashley Williams)

    8)  The male Alliance character is the most sensitive character (Kaidan Alenko)

    9)  Biracial and same-sex intimacy are permitted choices (at least in the later Mass Effects)

    10)  The themes of paternal neglect and fatherly care in the upbringing of children is powerfully presented (Thane in ME2)

    11)  The best pilot in the series is physically challenged (Joker)

    12)  The most aggressive, slave owning species is also the one that is utterly destroyed (the Batarians)

     

    If we look at all the risks the Mass Effect series took, and we look at all the examples of what society could be, we find that this series is more gender-forward than even Star Trek on its best day.  The Mass Effect galaxy turns every stereotype on its head.  I guess people who are going to find fault will find fault...but how many stereotypes does a series have to blow up in order to not get accused of being stereotypical?

     

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • ArakaziArakazi Member UncommonPosts: 911
    I was browsing my twitter feeds and found that a lot of internet and youtube journalist were posting the #gamersgate hashtag and discussing gender equality, journalistic integrity, and a whole bunch of other unrelated crap. I thought well this is weird, what the hell is going on? And when I dug a little deeper I find a whole lot of internet drama and amongst the crap it seems that the article posted by the OP was part of the whole "Gamers are dead" narrative that nearly every gaming site posted in tandem. WTF is going on?
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by Arakazi
    I was browsing my twitter feeds and found that a lot of internet and youtube journalist were posting the #gamersgate hashtag and discussing gender equality, journalistic integrity, and a whole bunch of other unrelated crap. I thought well this is weird, what the hell is going on? And when I dug a little deeper I find a whole lot of internet drama and amongst the crap it seems that the article posted by the OP was part of the whole "Gamers are dead" narrative that nearly every gaming site posted in tandem. WTF is going on?

     

    I didn't realize what a huge mess that article was a part of when I linked it.  I was looking at it as a single point event.  If you're going to get dig into the whole gamergate thing, you'll need to set aside a chunk of time to read a lot of articles, forum posts, etc.  Each item you read is going to require reading two more items for reference to the one thing you just read.  Getting involved in it is like a lot of threads on this site, but amped up on meth and a lifetime of abuse.  I don't recommend it.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,970

    The real analogy is when he talked about movies,they are like gaming,thousands released but only a handful are any good.

    Movies however do have a lot of versatility in their design/agenda whilst games no matter what genre only have two designs ,pvp/fps or a Themepark of meaningless quests.Then when people realize both these ideas are rather shallow the dev shouts out "but we have END GAME !!"...umm no you have NO game.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • VarossVaross Moderator UncommonPosts: 9,803
    Please do not necro month old threads.
    To give feedback on moderation, please contact mikeb@mmorpg.com
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