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Discipline system in 3.0(with or without expansion purchase)

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/2iggja/developer_update_introduction_to_disciplines/

 

 

Greetings!

Today, we bring to you Disciplines, a major overhaul to the class system that will be coming live with Game Update 3.0! At its very core, the Disciplines System replaces the current Skill Tree system while offering a wider array of impactful utility choices to expand their character and the ability for a character’s identity to surface much earlier in the level path. The Disciplines System changes the way we think about and develop the classes themselves, which will translate into a more balanced game and the capacity to expand levels and abilities more often. We’re excited about this system and the possibilities it unlocks for the future.

Say Goodbye to the Skill Trees

After much discussion, the Skill Trees that have been with us since the launch of the game have been removed. While we hope to maintain the feeling of progression with each level, players will no longer get a single point every level to invest in an array of skill boxes that we felt resulted in the burying of class identity, uneven power gains, and crazy-town rotations, depending on where you were in the tree. Instead, we created three Disciplines per Advanced Class, named and themed after the original Skill Trees (for example the three Disciplines for Commando are Combat Medic, Gunnery, and Assault Specialist, all very familiar names, themes, and play-styles from the skill tree era). For each of these disciplines, we took a look at all of the skills from their tree ancestor and imported everything that defined the identity and rotation of that tree and laid them out in a level-based progression, along with quite a bit of combining, cutting, creating new, and balancing along the way. No longer are you forced to purchase skills that are, in essence, necessary for your character to function; you simply get them automatically as you level up and progress down what we call the Discipline Path. Much like the old Skill Trees, each path is made up of active abilities, passive abilities, and a new type of progression concept called a utility selection, which we’ll explain later in the blog.

A Little Discipline is Good for You

From a player’s perspective, interacting with the Discipline system couldn’t be easier. Our goal was to design an elegant system that brings forward class identity without sacrificing the challenge of mastering your role in the process. We have combined the interface and process of taking an Advanced Class and discipline all into a series of linked panels that you access in much the same way you previously accessed the skill tree. Once you are level 10, you can simply open up that interface and are presented with the options for each Advanced Class available to you. After selecting an Advanced Class, the next panel of the interface describes each of the three disciplines available and allows you to select one. You can preview each of them to see what they are all about, and once you see one you like, you simply select and commit it! The chosen discipline path is automatically set to your current level, so if you want to abandon and switch disciplines (similar to resetting skill points on the trees), you can take on the challenge of a new role with ease. To make sure newer characters could immediately feel the identity of their chosen discipline at level 10, we’ve made sure that the very first things you get tend to generate a big impact to the type of character you want to be: healers get a nice heal, tanks get good defense/threat, and DPSers get a nice attack ability for their rotation. Tanks no longer have to grind 30 levels before they really start getting “Tanky” abilities; they can start being tanks right away.

What are Utility Selections

One of the most important goals for Disciplines was to make sure that the player had real choices that actually mattered as they advanced throughout the game. So after we finished pulling out all of the skills that we thought were really important for a Discipline’s play style and rotation, we took the remaining skills from each of the three Advanced Classes, cut some of the extraneous ones, created some exciting new options, polished old favorites, and put them into a selection pool available to all members of that Advanced Class. The end result is greater versatility. As an Engineering Sniper, do you want to gain AE damage reduction when you entrench? Well now you can, it is no longer for Marksmanship only. Each Advanced Class’s utility selections are divided up into three tiers, with each tier requiring a certain number of utility selections before unlocking. We also wanted to make Utility selections quick and easy to change around, so as long as you aren’t in the middle of combat you can bring up your new discipline window, reset your utilities, and quickly choose new ones.

Why the Change

While Skill Trees appear on the surface to provide flexibility and choice, in practicality they give very little of either. Players of a skill tree all tend to take the same skills in roughly the same order, with only minor variations on which utility choices they pick up by the end of their leveling system. With Disciplines, we can focus on creating strong and fun play styles from level 10 on, without having to worry about how people are spending 50 skill points and whether some people are making bad decisions or if others are finding crazy untested combinations that vastly exceed what we want to happen. Attach to that the idea of expanding the amount of and type of utility each player has access to and you get a system that creates better and more balanced characters with a stronger identity while allowing players actual choice. We also continued to run into a significant problem expanding the Skill Trees for level cap increases: development time. Each of the Skill Trees were balanced based on an assumption of points and how players must spend their points to get what they need to perform in combat. When we add more points (as well as more skills themselves) to the trees during a level cap increase, all of that balance is thrown off kilter and must be reset for every Advanced Class. This results in a massive amount of time spent every level cap increase simply redoing and rebalancing the Skill Trees over and over, preventing us from spending time actually doing cool new things. So to sum up, we’ve created Disciplines for stronger and earlier role specialization, more utility, more flexibility, better balance, and more development time for class improvements - letting our designers do more for you!

Get Ready for Disciplines

When you log into the expansion for the first time you will be prompted to choose your desired Discipline and utilities, and you are off and running. With this reorganization of the class system we’ve strengthened the identity of each class path and made the choices a player has available immediately impactful to their character. Coming up we are going to do a blog for each particular discipline for every class, so you can really get a feel for the changes coming to your specific style. We’ll also show off all of the cool new things we are adding to the classes thanks to this flexibility. All of this is just the beginning of the journey – we can’t wait for your feedback!

 

 

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, I cannot wait for this to sink in to people. They are removing talent trees completely and replacing it with the same talent system(perks) that WoW did with Cataclysm 4 years ago. I always liked the reasoning Blizzard gave at the time, so for BioWare to copy it is pretty vindicating. I can't wait to see the tears from people who hated it in WoW, and the wishy-washy people who flip and say "oh, well since SWTOR is doing it too, I guess it's not so bad." Also a little humorous BioWare is following exactly in Blizzard's footsteps design-wise, but that's a whole different discussion.

This made my day. :D

«13

Comments

  • tordurbartordurbar Member UncommonPosts: 421

    Well, another one bites the dust. SWTOR was the closest MMO to vanilla WOW around and that is why I loved it. Now it is going the way of CATA. Goodbye SWTOR. I will be dropping my sub. Killing the skill trees destroys most of the fun of leveling up for me. Bioware is doing the same thing that Blizzard did with CATA. I quit WOW shortly after CATA to go to SWTOR and now Bioware is doing the same thing. You would think that Bioware would take the loss of subs that WOW has never recovered as a lesson but no.

    I believe I heard that RIFT will be doing the same thing. So much for going back there. For the first time in 12 years I do not see an MMO I want to sub to. I guess Blizzard was correct - the MMO market is dying.

     

     

     

  • pantaropantaro Member RarePosts: 514
    people are surprised by this!?!?!?!? /facepalm
  • umcorianumcorian Member UncommonPosts: 519

    Greetings!

    Today, we bring to you Disciplines, a major overhaul to the class system that will be coming live with Game Update 3.0! At its very core, the Disciplines System is what WoW did in Cataclysm, therefore we must do it. 

    Say Goodbye to the Skill Trees

    After much playing of World of Warcraft, the Skill Trees that have been with us since the launch of the game have been removed. While we hope to maintain the feeling of progression with... y'know what, just read this: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2878505

    A Little Discipline is Good for You

    From a player’s perspective, interacting with the Discipline system couldn’t be easier. You know how in WoW, you click a talent and you have it? Yeah, it's that simple. 

    What are Utility Selections

    See this: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2878505

    Why the Change

    Um... yeah, see this: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2878505

    Get Ready for Disciplines

    When you log into Cataclysm for the first time, you will be... er... I mean, Star Wars... The Old Pandaria... er... um...

    Just read this: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2878505

     

    ---

     

    Fixed. 

  • FlintsteenFlintsteen Member UncommonPosts: 282

    I'm not a fan of this.  If they wanted to kill hybrids they could do it like wow did in lich king (I think) where you tree is locked until you have picked the top tier talent in your tree.  Then when that talent is set you can branch out.

     

    I'm not saying it cant work.  It might.  I'm just not a big fan of messing with things that isn't broken.

  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,914
    I am withholding judgement until i try it in place.
  • Sevenstar61Sevenstar61 Member UncommonPosts: 1,681

    We all know that most likely we all play the same builds for the certain skill tree, there's no much variation here in my opinion. Just check out Dulfy's guide. Yeah, there are hybrid builds but usually you got to max one tree.

    They probably going to  create builds that already take into account these choices and build from here.

    Personally I would love to have more utility skills etc...

    It's a big change.... as Grimal said I will as well  not judge it until I have a chance to play it.


    Sith Warrior - Story of Hate and Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKrlwXt7Ao
    Imperial Agent - Rise of Cipher Nine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBj3eJWBvU&feature=youtu.be
    Imperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqjYYU128E

  • SetzerSetzer Member UncommonPosts: 227

    Not going to judge until I hear more info and see the system in action....but I am disappointed they are getting rid of skill trees.  I understand there are "cookie cutter" specs out there but not everyone used those specs and it allowed the player freedom to customize their build however they saw fit and if you wanted to be a hybrid, it was possible. It's what allowed you to be different from other players who were playing the same class. It's truly sad to see Bioware take the same route Blizzard did.

    I'm with tordurbar, part of the reason why I left WoW was for the removal of skill trees and with Bioware following suit with SWTOR,  I may end my time in this game as well.  I will, however, give them the benefit of the doubt and see what they've come up with and how it all works before I write them off completely.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,149
    People are upset that they are getting rid of those awful 31 point trees? Really? I can't believe they are still in use 3 years later. He'll they were out dated by a couple years when the game shipped! Idk how they do it as long as they do. It can't possibly be worse.
  • GreteldaGretelda Member UncommonPosts: 359
    "Embark on an epic new storyline with full voiceover and dramatic cinematic moments as you prepare to face Revan, one of the most powerful characters in The Old Republic era." hmm might return at some point for that.

    my top MMOs: UO,DAOC,WoW,GW2

    most of my posts are just my opinions they are not facts,it is the same for you too.

  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,314

    Well I will try not to judge this until I see it but if it comes out like blizzards trees I will most likely hate it.  Seems like devs feels they need to dumb things down so that a three year old can play it and get hooked so they can get the credit card info of the parents etc.....

     

    I like choosing were every point goes and exactly what skills I pick up.  I am one of the minority that enjoys leveling, I do not rush to some mythical max level.  So by taking away a part of the system it takes away something I like.  I never do the min-max crap that people post online.  I pick skills I like, not what everyone says you need.  This forces me to have the main skills they are saying I need.  I hope I am wrong on this point but it is what I get from reading it.

     

    The feeling I get with the direction of devs today is that in a few years you will log in to watch the game play itself.  You want need to do any input as it makes it easier for the devs to code, and it will be marketed as the best new thing.

  • jesteralwaysjesteralways Member RarePosts: 2,560
    It takes a lot of skill to copy-paste build from dulfy or any other swtor guide sites to optimize class efficiency you know!!! now that skill tree is gone we no longer have to copy-past and be an elitist jerk about it!! what a terrible change!!!../sarcasm off

    Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.

  • Varex12Varex12 Member CommonPosts: 357

    Gotta admit, I'm not in love with this.  I HATED that WoW got rid of the talent trees, and this is nothing more than a copy of the Cata/MoP WoW skill system mess.  Then again, the SWTOR talent trees weren't nearly as in-depth as WoW's were before they changed them, so maybe this won't feel quite as terrible and restrictive.  I'm really hoping they make these a bit more robust than what WoW did, but I tend to doubt it.  

    Sad panda.  No pun intended.  

  • SetzerSetzer Member UncommonPosts: 227
    Originally posted by Varex12

     I'm really hoping they make these a bit more robust than what WoW did, but I tend to doubt it.  

    Sad panda.  No pun intended.  

    I really hope so too. I love all these people posting here acting like this change isn't that big a deal and its something that should have been done years ago.  I guess MMO players today love their games to have a lot of "hand-holding" features. They want things simplified because having to play through a game that requires you to think about your choices is just too complicated and too much for them to handle.  The talent tree system wasn't perfect and you will have people who elect to use a "cookie cutter" spec but for those of us that loved to experiment it allowed for some truly unique character builds(hybrid) that separated us from other players who were playing the same class.

    I'll wait and see what they have planned for the Discipline system and maybe it will be better than WoW's but to say I'm hopeful is an understatement.

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,822

    They showed them today on their stream http://www.twitch.tv/swtor

    They acutally looked pretty good IMO. And we're getting some cool new abilities.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • ShrewdDuckShrewdDuck Member UncommonPosts: 21

    If it helps balance PVE and PVP then I say go for it!!! The OP is just a hater and a troll, I found the same post here   http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1603771-Discipline-system-in-3-0(with-or-without-expansion-purchase)

    Some people huh.

  • Sevenstar61Sevenstar61 Member UncommonPosts: 1,681

    I just watched the stream. There is one change that I think players will love. Sorcs, Mercs, Commandos and maybe some other classes can choose from heroic abilities the passive that will make some of their abilities work while moving.

    Totally you can get 7 utility abilities.

    Well, we shall see, I think I am going to like my lightning sorc.


    Sith Warrior - Story of Hate and Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKrlwXt7Ao
    Imperial Agent - Rise of Cipher Nine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBj3eJWBvU&feature=youtu.be
    Imperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqjYYU128E

  • TokkenTokken Member RarePosts: 2,474

    I welcome the changes / adds they have made to this game lately.

    Make PvE GREAT Again!
  • HokieHokie Member UncommonPosts: 1,063

    I really love how they try and sugarcoat and justify taking away player choice and saying the players are better off for it.

     

    "While Skill Trees appear on the surface to provide flexibility and choice, in practicality they give very little of either. Players of a skill tree all tend to take the same skills in roughly the same order, with only minor variations on which utility choices they pick up by the end of their leveling system."

     

    Lets say this how they really mean it.

     

    "Someone, somewhere decided that player choice is bad and they figured that we EA/Bioware knew better than you what you wanted to play as a character and what choices you wanted to pick. See flexibility and choice are an illusion. Why? Well, because we said it was.

     

    As we continue with vertical progression we ran into a problem. There were too many choices for skills to put on a hot bar. Players will not be satisfied with an expansion with out getting somekind of new ability.

    So what happened is we had too many abilities. Now we understand players can decided what they want on their hotbars, whats spells they use for their style of gameplay if you will. But we decided why have too much of a good thing. Because we all know in the end its better to have less than it is to have more for the player to choose from.

    And who knows better than the player what the player wants? We at EA/Bioware do! Now arnt you excited!!!"

     

    In the end thats what its really boiled down to. They've decided they know better than you do what type of game (character) you want to play.

    Its why I quit playing WoW, and I think its when a lot of other players got disillusioned with WoW also. And now EA/Bioware is doing the same to SWtOR.

     

    I dont know if theyre doing this change because of only doing vertical progression expansions. But that is one of the inherent problems of only using that kind of system.

    All I know is Ive supported this game with money since early access and that has changed. Ive canceled my subscription, Im not giving them anymore money to take away my choice and change the game I loved playing.

    Im sure like WoW I'll retry it at some point, and be totally fucking disgusted with the choices they made, and then permanently move on to something else, never to return.

     

    You know when I think about it, they Blizzard has lost thousands of dollars just from me, and I know others too, because someone thought they knew better than me and what I wanted.

    So I wonder is EA/Bioware thinking along the same lines? That they are going to actually come out in the black on this? All this money spent redesigning the game and how it plays? And the customers they've forced away? They are going to recoup all that and then some?

     

     

    "I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."

  • XiaokiXiaoki Member RarePosts: 3,358

    The talent trees needed to go.

    At launch they were terrible and were only upgraded to bad with RotHC.

    The hybrid builds ranged from very situational to gimmicky so they are no great loss.

    But the nerd rage will fill the message boards anyway.

    "They're taking away our choice!" The choice between a talent that gives you 6% damage with this attack or 3% crit with that attack?
    Yeah, awesome.

    This stat crunching no brainer vs that stat crunching no brainer.

    I'll actually care about "dumbing down" or "hand holding" when it's over something that isn't terrible on the first place. I play games not crunch numbers in Excel spread sheets to maximize damage potential.

  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,634
    Originally posted by bcbully
    People are upset that they are getting rid of those awful 31 point trees? Really? I can't believe they are still in use 3 years later. He'll they were out dated by a couple years when the game shipped! Idk how they do it as long as they do. It can't possibly be worse.

    Mmmm edgy.

    I'm not defending SWTOR, but could you tell us what game doesn't have this system of skill trees, rows of skills by category, or a skill wheel? Because, they are all the same for the past 15 years.

    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • BlizzardShillBlizzardShill Member UncommonPosts: 37

    I'm glad another developer is finally seeing how useless talent trees are. 

     

    The system is just so archaic.  There's really no choice involved in the talent trees - there's a 'good' or 'optimal' set of talents to take for your role and content type, and any other deviation from it (except for some utility talents, which the new system is providing anyway) are 'bad'. 

     

    The same complaints came up as they did with Cata.

     

    Player choice?  Sure, if you like choosing between being good at the game and being a baddie.  Under the old system, the developer is giving you two choices:  Follow the ideal spec as discovered by theorycrafters, or gimp yourself for each talent you spent away from the norm.  You could say that you're so defiant that you don't follow the sites, but then you're just being suboptimal because you picked terrible talents.  If you want to heal as an op in PVE you go 38/3/5 or you're bad, not a special snowflake.  How is that engaging in any way?  How is that good game design?  How does that help differentiate skill aside from weeding out the people who aren't 'hardcore' enough to look outside the game for information on builds?  Why should I have to leave the game to play the game?

     

    Dumbing down? You can't really dumb down what was already numbingly easy - all you have to do is go to Dulfy's site and copy the optimal build and suddenly you're built properly for your role.  If you don't copy Dulfy's guide (for PVE anyway), you deliberately nerf yourself.  For what purpose?  Why punish players that don't read Elitist Jerks or Dulfy?  Why should their input on the optimum way to choose uninteresting 'talents' that give you 0.1% crit chance direct your gameplay?  Why are uninteresting 'talents' that give you 0.1% crit chance even in the game to begin with?  How is removing these in favor of interesting utility 'dumbing down' the game?

     

    Hybrids?  We're talking about SWTOR.  Because of how the game actually works, hybrids are either incredibly useless (cannot put out enough DPS/healing or tank well enough to pass gear checks) or stupidly broken in PVP, which are both unfun.  While you have the 'freedom' to spend half your points in one tree and half in another, you end up gimped in both areas because all the good talents and synergies are deep in the trees.  Yes, just because you spent half your points in a tree doesn't mean you're 50% efficient at it - it's more like 25-30% due to how the end talents are game changers.  Anyone who says otherwise (for SWTOR at least) can be disregarded as a scrub that doesn't know how the game works or a PVP player that is going to miss their OP smash build (that shouldn't have existed in the first place) because that is the only way they can compete with top players.  If you need a gimmick build as a crutch, then you should learn to play instead of mashing your smash key.

     

    Maybe someone can actually make a detailed post that explains all my points away.  Or maybe no one will step up to me, and talent trees will still remain king as an illusion of player choice, and I the king of this thread.

     

     

     

  • GregorMcgregorGregorMcgregor Member UncommonPosts: 254
    Water spotted in the 3rd class (player) area captain!!!

    No trials. No tricks. No traps. No EU-RP server. NO THANKS!

    image

    ...10% Benevolence, 90% Arrogance in my case!
  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,634
    Originally posted by BlizzardShill

    I'm glad another developer is finally seeing how useless talent trees are. 

     

    The system is just so archaic.  There's really no choice involved in the talent trees - there's a 'good' or 'optimal' set of talents to take for your role and content type, and any other deviation from it (except for some utility talents, which the new system is providing anyway) are 'bad'. 

     

    The same complaints came up as they did with Cata.

     

    Player choice?  Sure, if you like choosing between being good at the game and being a baddie.  Under the old system, the developer is giving you two choices:  Follow the ideal spec as discovered by theorycrafters, or gimp yourself for each talent you spent away from the norm.  You could say that you're so defiant that you don't follow the sites, but then you're just being suboptimal because you picked terrible talents.  If you want to heal as an op in PVE you go 38/3/5 or you're bad, not a special snowflake.  How is that engaging in any way?  How is that good game design?  How does that help differentiate skill aside from weeding out the people who aren't 'hardcore' enough to look outside the game for information on builds?  Why should I have to leave the game to play the game?

     

    Dumbing down? You can't really dumb down what was already numbingly easy - all you have to do is go to Dulfy's site and copy the optimal build and suddenly you're built properly for your role.  If you don't copy Dulfy's guide (for PVE anyway), you deliberately nerf yourself.  For what purpose?  Why punish players that don't read Elitist Jerks or Dulfy?  Why should their input on the optimum way to choose uninteresting 'talents' that give you 0.1% crit chance direct your gameplay?  Why are uninteresting 'talents' that give you 0.1% crit chance even in the game to begin with?  How is removing these in favor of interesting utility 'dumbing down' the game?

     

    Hybrids?  We're talking about SWTOR.  Because of how the game actually works, hybrids are either incredibly useless (cannot put out enough DPS/healing or tank well enough to pass gear checks) or stupidly broken in PVP, which are both unfun.  While you have the 'freedom' to spend half your points in one tree and half in another, you end up gimped in both areas because all the good talents and synergies are deep in the trees.  Yes, just because you spent half your points in a tree doesn't mean you're 50% efficient at it - it's more like 25-30% due to how the end talents are game changers.  Anyone who says otherwise (for SWTOR at least) can be disregarded as a scrub that doesn't know how the game works or a PVP player that is going to miss their OP smash build (that shouldn't have existed in the first place) because that is the only way they can compete with top players.  If you need a gimmick build as a crutch, then you should learn to play instead of mashing your smash key.

     

    Maybe someone can actually make a detailed post that explains all my points away.  Or maybe no one will step up to me, and talent trees will still remain king as an illusion of player choice, and I the king of this thread.

     

     

     

    Using ESO as an example, some of the less-than-optimal skills are pretty cool to play with.

    Yeah, there's specific builds that are required for group content. There are also completely different skills required for PVP.  But, if I solo stuff in the world, I like to throw skills on my bar that are fun to look at or use.

    On the other hand, I hate wasting a point(s) in order to get to the skill I want. I don't think this change changes that.

    In SWTOR, you still have to spend 5 points just to get to the Heroic Tier, where all the goodies are. You only get 7 points.

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  • Varex12Varex12 Member CommonPosts: 357
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade

    They showed them today on their stream http://www.twitch.tv/swtor

    They acutally looked pretty good IMO. And we're getting some cool new abilities.

    Yeah, watched that earlier.  My fears have been lessened a bit.  Actually looks pretty decent.  I was pleasantly surprised. 

  • Varex12Varex12 Member CommonPosts: 357
    Originally posted by BlizzardShill

    I'm glad another developer is finally seeing how useless talent trees are. 

     

    The system is just so archaic.  There's really no choice involved in the talent trees - there's a 'good' or 'optimal' set of talents to take for your role and content type, and any other deviation from it (except for some utility talents, which the new system is providing anyway) are 'bad'. 

     

    The same complaints came up as they did with Cata.

     

    Player choice?  Sure, if you like choosing between being good at the game and being a baddie.  Under the old system, the developer is giving you two choices:  Follow the ideal spec as discovered by theorycrafters, or gimp yourself for each talent you spent away from the norm.  You could say that you're so defiant that you don't follow the sites, but then you're just being suboptimal because you picked terrible talents.  If you want to heal as an op in PVE you go 38/3/5 or you're bad, not a special snowflake.  How is that engaging in any way?  How is that good game design?  How does that help differentiate skill aside from weeding out the people who aren't 'hardcore' enough to look outside the game for information on builds?  Why should I have to leave the game to play the game?

     

    Dumbing down? You can't really dumb down what was already numbingly easy - all you have to do is go to Dulfy's site and copy the optimal build and suddenly you're built properly for your role.  If you don't copy Dulfy's guide (for PVE anyway), you deliberately nerf yourself.  For what purpose?  Why punish players that don't read Elitist Jerks or Dulfy?  Why should their input on the optimum way to choose uninteresting 'talents' that give you 0.1% crit chance direct your gameplay?  Why are uninteresting 'talents' that give you 0.1% crit chance even in the game to begin with?  How is removing these in favor of interesting utility 'dumbing down' the game?

     

    Hybrids?  We're talking about SWTOR.  Because of how the game actually works, hybrids are either incredibly useless (cannot put out enough DPS/healing or tank well enough to pass gear checks) or stupidly broken in PVP, which are both unfun.  While you have the 'freedom' to spend half your points in one tree and half in another, you end up gimped in both areas because all the good talents and synergies are deep in the trees.  Yes, just because you spent half your points in a tree doesn't mean you're 50% efficient at it - it's more like 25-30% due to how the end talents are game changers.  Anyone who says otherwise (for SWTOR at least) can be disregarded as a scrub that doesn't know how the game works or a PVP player that is going to miss their OP smash build (that shouldn't have existed in the first place) because that is the only way they can compete with top players.  If you need a gimmick build as a crutch, then you should learn to play instead of mashing your smash key.

     

    Maybe someone can actually make a detailed post that explains all my points away.  Or maybe no one will step up to me, and talent trees will still remain king as an illusion of player choice, and I the king of this thread.

     

     

     

    You spent a really long amount of time on that post, and actually could have just typed out the sentence, "I completely missed the point."  Would have saved you a lot of time.

    You're under the impression that we give a shit about how viable talent trees are at the endgame.  Most of us don't give a shit.  I'm completely fine with the fact that talent trees generally have one variation at endgame, based upon theorycrafting for optimal performance.  And that's how it should be.  If you want to raid and be a top performer, there is generally only going to be one spec to do it in.  It's the price you pay for the great gear.  Big fucking deal.  

    I prefer talent trees because they give me the option of experimenting WHILE I'm leveling and learning my class.  I may not always pick the optimal setup, but during the leveling process, that's not important.  It's still nice to have actual choices, good and bad, that allow you to tinker with your class.

    I'm not sure why that's so difficult to understand for some of you, or why you feel the need to enlighten us with how archaic that system is.  

    It worked.  It was fun.  And it made the leveling process more exciting because you had something to look forward to after dinging a level.  

     

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