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Almost everything cost labor points?

13

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  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,935
    Originally posted by DMKano

    The labor system controls rate of economy - so anything to do with commerce/crafting requires labor points. ArcheAge has no item decay - so the labor system is key in keeping crafted gear valuable.

    In ArcheAge best gear is crafted, without any system in place to control the rate of materials getting crafted - the game economy would be in ruins with endless flood of mass crafted items entering the market.

    Of course you don't have to like the Labor system - but at least have the understanding of its purpose and design.

     

    But this isn't entirely true, is it?  Doesn't it cost labor points to report a bot?  I don't see how that is related to economy. In SWG, it never cost you item decay to report someone, as an example.

  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,935
    Originally posted by Proudsoul1
    Originally posted by darkhearts

     I was having "fun" till I learned that almost everything I wanted to do cost labor points. Is this implemented to block us from playing too much? I mean I just hit the robots and saw ore and kept clicking the ones I saw as I climbed the mountain and before I got halfway up it said I couldn't anymore.

    Only thing I see myself doing is combat which is not that fun to begin with. Being a skullknight all I do is spam my first star blast or w/e it's called.

    Let me try to explain . AA is a sandbox. Sandbox games try to simulate real world . In the Real world can you Mine 24/7 or would you run out of energy? In the real world could you Make 1000 suits or armor over night? In the real world could you cut down 1000 tree and pick 1000s of potatoes in one night?"

    No you couldnt. that is why there is a labor pool.

    Also it controls the economy to a degree.

    Well, for those you can just introduce a simple timer.  Like ESO's crafting does for instance.  Or  Eve's skill learning.

  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,935
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by murilor
    The game can't say how much i can work ! Anyway, who plays a game for 24h ? The market can't ruin just because some people are working more than others, isn't everyone that will dedicated their time to produce something. In Ultima Online we could produce all the time if we want and the economy was the best of all mmorpgs that i played.

    Key differentiator - UO had item decay - AA has none

    In games where crafted gear means everything - item decay is one way to go.

    But how do you control the economy without item decay - Labor system is one of the answers.

     

    The MMO market has changed a lot in the last 16 years

     

    Today the army of bots can produce hundreds of thousands of crafted items on day 1 if there was no system to control the economy

    The gold selling companies are a big business (back in days of UO they were a non-factor) - they would own the economy in a huge way making all the players their bitches.

     

     

    Why is LP system better than the decay system?  I still don't understand why.  I'm not trying to attack the game in any way, I am just curious as to your reasoning.  You mentioned in a prior post some best gear might take a year to make and item decay would destroy that.  Well, wasn't the length of time to craft calculated for the LP system?  That time can be changed to fit an item decay system so as not to destroy the economy as you suggested.

    Item Decay made sense to me.  If I use an item, it decays.

    As for your last two sentences, I've been reading a lot of complaints of bots and gold selling invading the economy already in AA so how is it a better preventive measure?

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by DMKano

    The labor system controls rate of economy - so anything to do with commerce/crafting requires labor points. ArcheAge has no item decay - so the labor system is key in keeping crafted gear valuable.

    In ArcheAge best gear is crafted, without any system in place to control the rate of materials getting crafted - the game economy would be in ruins with endless flood of mass crafted items entering the market.

    Of course you don't have to like the Labor system - but at least have the understanding of its purpose and design.

     

    But this isn't entirely true, is it?  Doesn't it cost labor points to report a bot?  I don't see how that is related to economy. In SWG, it never cost you item decay to report someone, as an example.

    Exactly, not to mention to identify loot. Whether LP was in the game originally or not, they sure as hell found ways to monetize your gameplay with it for the F2P transition.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • alyndalealyndale Member UncommonPosts: 936
    Originally posted by Thane
    Originally posted by darkhearts

     I was having "fun" till I learned that almost everything I wanted to do cost labor points. Is this implemented to block us from playing too much? I mean I just hit the robots and saw ore and kept clicking the ones I saw as I climbed the mountain and before I got halfway up it said I couldn't anymore.

    Only thing I see myself doing is combat which is not that fun to begin with. Being a skullknight all I do is spam my first star blast or w/e it's called.

    sorry, but you do not have enough labor points to ask that kind of question!

    <sighs> lol yup,

    image

    Alyn

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,521
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Gorgothax
    If they got rid of labor points I can almost certainly guarantee that no one would really be complaining about this game, except for the mindless questing that goes on until you hit level 30.

    Except that everyone would be walking in end game gear within weeks and the whole game would lose all appeal immediately - thus completely ruining the entire game.

    The labor system is what makes ArcheAge tick - removing it would be equivalent to ripping someone's heart out.

     

    Unless you have an alternative solution to keep the economy in check without item decay - I'd love to hear it.

     

     A better system I can think of is to make the resources for high level gear, rare and only obtainable by controlling areas through PvP.

    And lootable image

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  • VaporsVapors Member UncommonPosts: 407
    Originally posted by darkhearts

     I was having "fun" till I learned that almost everything I wanted to do cost labor points. Is this implemented to block us from playing too much? I mean I just hit the robots and saw ore and kept clicking the ones I saw as I climbed the mountain and before I got halfway up it said I couldn't anymore.

    Only thing I see myself doing is combat which is not that fun to begin with. Being a skullknight all I do is spam my first star blast or w/e it's called.

    LP nerfs the ones want to rush down the game in weeks. Other game scenario -> Oh wow i played 1 week 24/7, developer where's the end game content?

    Labour points costs money like in real time, time is money. You can invest your labour points into crafted things to get out more expensive stuff. It controls the whole economy and keeps items on their value.

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    Originally posted by Vapors
    Originally posted by darkhearts

     I was having "fun" till I learned that almost everything I wanted to do cost labor points. Is this implemented to block us from playing too much? I mean I just hit the robots and saw ore and kept clicking the ones I saw as I climbed the mountain and before I got halfway up it said I couldn't anymore.

    Only thing I see myself doing is combat which is not that fun to begin with. Being a skullknight all I do is spam my first star blast or w/e it's called.

    LP nerfs the ones want to rush down the game in weeks. Other game scenario -> Oh wow i played 1 week 24/7, developer where's the end game content?

    Labour points costs money like in real time, time is money. You can invest your labour points into crafted things to get out more expensive stuff. It controls the whole economy and keeps items on their value.

    The assumption seems to be players who want to rush through the game will cry about no end game and leave and have nothing to do.  That's not always true.  Players may join late and want to catch up with their friends.  Players may want to prepare themselves for pvp because a lot of games don't balance low level pvp players with higher level pvp players, so they want to level first. 

    I believe traditionally games wanted players to go slow so they could sub and play through content as slowly as possible which increased the bottom line of the company as they were also around longer to pay for expansions and vanity items.  Of course they said to explore, participate in more community events, and not think about what level you were.  Anything to keep a paying customer paying.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • NobleNerdNobleNerd Member UncommonPosts: 759
    Originally posted by darkhearts

     I was having "fun" till I learned that almost everything I wanted to do cost labor points. Is this implemented to block us from playing too much? I mean I just hit the robots and saw ore and kept clicking the ones I saw as I climbed the mountain and before I got halfway up it said I couldn't anymore.

    Only thing I see myself doing is combat which is not that fun to begin with. Being a skullknight all I do is spam my first star blast or w/e it's called.

    I would like to reply to your questions, but that will cost 200 LP for 500 characters and I just ran out.


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by NobleNerd

    I would like to reply to your questions, but that will cost 200 LP for 500 characters and I just ran out.

    PM me, I have some labor pots and gold to sell you. Special prices, limited offer!

  • JJ82JJ82 Member UncommonPosts: 1,258

    Amazing the amount of misinformation is in this thread.

    This game was a sub only game for 2 years that delt out more LP for being logged in and out all while requiring fewer items to craft some items AND having no LP cost on some tasks that now do, and did not have a trashed economy over-flowing with items.

    It is the way it is now to try to force more purchases and has been seen in every other market, is actually only serving to cause more people to quit since it wrecks the base game and causes a major slowdown in the rest, that is built off of people doing trade runs.

    Even the road to piracy was hurt by it...fewer people to kill and steal from...and fewer boats on the water to attack and steal from.

    The LP system shouldn't have been changed for paying customers, the game was built around that system. now its broke.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
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  • ShortyBibleShortyBible Member UncommonPosts: 409

    If the Labor System was implemented to control the economy, why did Trion/XL  try to lower the cool down rate of Labor potions just prior to release? If the internet had  not blown up with pay to win threads , and players did not rebel this system would have been in place. (I think they tried to reduce it from 12 hours to 4 hours)

    The consumers forced Trion/XL to keep the cool down rate to 12 hours.

    In my opinion the LP system was not implemented to restrain the economy, but t to herd  players into the Cash Shop.

  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,935
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by murilor
    The game can't say how much i can work ! Anyway, who plays a game for 24h ? The market can't ruin just because some people are working more than others, isn't everyone that will dedicated their time to produce something. In Ultima Online we could produce all the time if we want and the economy was the best of all mmorpgs that i played.

    Key differentiator - UO had item decay - AA has none

    In games where crafted gear means everything - item decay is one way to go.

    But how do you control the economy without item decay - Labor system is one of the answers.

     

    The MMO market has changed a lot in the last 16 years

     

    Today the army of bots can produce hundreds of thousands of crafted items on day 1 if there was no system to control the economy

    The gold selling companies are a big business (back in days of UO they were a non-factor) - they would own the economy in a huge way making all the players their bitches.

     

     

    Why is LP system better than the decay system?  I still don't understand why.  I'm not trying to attack the game in any way, I am just curious as to your reasoning.  You mentioned in a prior post some best gear might take a year to make and item decay would destroy that.  Well, wasn't the length of time to craft calculated for the LP system?  That time can be changed to fit an item decay system so as not to destroy the economy as you suggested.

    Item Decay made sense to me.  If I use an item, it decays.

    As for your last two sentences, I've been reading a lot of complaints of bots and gold selling invading the economy already in AA so how is it a better preventive measure?

    Labor point system is not better than item decay, it's just different

     

    In item decay system - you keep remaking gear infinitely as long as you play - so over a course of a year you might craft the same suit of armor 40 times - to me this is pure tedium

     

    In Labor System game - you might make the same suit 100 times before you get the perfect roll - or maybe it happens on the 1st try or 1000th - that's the RNG - but once you make it - it stays in game forever as long as you don't purposefully destroy it.

     

    Item decay involves known results and endless crafting to replenish lost gear

    Labor System involves unknown RNG rolls until you get the gear you want

     

    both systems involve lots of grinding - one is endless, the other stops once you get best in slot gear

     

    Which system you like is a matter of preference - I prefer RNG+ labor system because once you get that sweet roll - the feeling is awesome.

     

     

    The way labor system prevents bots from ruining the economy is simple - you can't make 100,000 swords in a day due to limited labor pool and everything from gathering to mining and refining takes up labor points.

     

    Ok thanks that explains it a bit better. They are both grindy but is sounds like which type of grind you want.  From a paper standpoint, LP seems like it has too many variables that open loopholes into it (especially with the cash shop item).  Are the KR and RU versions.....well how are they handling the gold spammers, bots and afk'ers?

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by grimalThey are both grindy but is sounds like which type of grind you want.

    Of course not.

    Item decay means large supply, the items are produced in large volumes, which means they are easily affordable.


  • JJ82JJ82 Member UncommonPosts: 1,258
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by DMKano

    The way labor system prevents bots from ruining the economy is simple - you can't make 100,000 swords in a day due to limited labor pool and everything from gathering to mining and refining takes up labor points.

    Ok thanks that explains it a bit better. They are both grindy but is sounds like which type of grind you want.  From a paper standpoint, LP seems like it has too many variables that open loopholes into it (especially with the cash shop item).  Are the KR and RU versions.....well how are they handling the gold spammers, bots and afk'ers?

     He is making logical fallacies.

    Labor points do not prevent it and games without it doesn't suffer from what he is talking about.

    gold spammers don't create bots to make mundane items in any game because the amount of resources it takes to get that "sweet item" vastly cuts into the profit of selling that item thus making just gathering and selling the materials worth more in the long run. Its high value rare items that are hunted by gold spammers and sold on the AH, and they aren't bots, they are farmed by people at a PC. The bots where the gatherers using port hacks that can be un-manned and are doing the gold selling spam. In this game, its so easy to get gold that they are spending almost all of their time doing trade runs and selling the gold from that to players for RL money. All it takes is one person at the helm of an account with macros on 10 others having them follow the main and they can do trade runs in mass.

    its just another LP argument made by someone that never played the game when it was subscription only. A game that did not have economic issues from player made items, and gave far more LP while having fewer tasks that required it.

    as for your question, the KR and RU versions have all 3 and every implementation is eventually worked around. The Japanese version doesn't suffer from bots, once in a while you may see some gold spam but Japanese people don't buy gold from illegal sources, either the game maker sells it or they don't buy it. AFKers however is another story, the LP system almost forces it on you if you actually want to play the game.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by grimal

     

    They are both grindy but is sounds like which type of grind you want.


     

    Of course not.

    Item decay means large supply, the items are produced in large volumes, which means they are easily affordable.

     

     

    This^

    AT least what I've seen of said mechanic, in SWG Armor etc.. were mass produced.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,852
    How's the LP system benefiting the economy so far?
  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,935
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by grimal

     

    They are both grindy but is sounds like which type of grind you want.


     

    Of course not.

    Item decay means large supply, the items are produced in large volumes, which means they are easily affordable.

     

     

    You still need to collect the ingredients over and over to produce...that's where I meant grind.

  • Bad.dogBad.dog Member UncommonPosts: 1,131
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    How's the LP system benefiting the economy so far?

    Seems pretty good ,,,,I'm more interested in how the LP system could be applied to forums , AA seems to be the first game that folks that don't play the game seem to have more knowledge and insight into the game than folks that are playing it !!'m starting to think some posters here are crying over spilled milk and have missed the boat on this one I mean what other game let's you p2p for years for $15 up front and  about 5 hours of work a month in game to stay active as a paying patron , and to add insult to injury they haven't charged anyone any playing time yet !!

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by grimal

     

    They are both grindy but is sounds like which type of grind you want.


     

    Of course not.

    Item decay means large supply, the items are produced in large volumes, which means they are easily affordable.

     

     

    You still need to collect the ingredients over and over to produce...that's where I meant grind.

    Even that was handled in mass production in SWG for the most part outside of rarer resource like Krayt scales, genoisian or mando parts.

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • alin1209alin1209 Member UncommonPosts: 61

    I dont realy anderstand thouse that defend this sistem.
    Ok so i started a caracter and played some 3-4 hours and i am at 200 or 300,i must say i forgot.Than i open my inventory and had some 100 bags that i need to open...than i see a iron node that suck 5 or 10 each and than a quest that says to craft something and it cost me 50 and than i run in the first dungeon where bags need 3 LP to open and....

    Man f.. that sistem!...Wot i have left to do in game?kill mobs and do quests...so you lose 50% of game potential and hide it under such pathetic excuse of preventing the economy to sunk...

    You that defend the sistem probably have patrons or have bought LP becouse i cant finde a logical reason behinde this mentality of accepting such sistem and your average play sassion will look like...
    Hey lets do some crafting...and craft 3 items that suck 50 points or more each and call it a day?....its that fun as a gaplay experience to craft 5 min in a play sassion-day?

    ...I realy dont see a long ride for the game with this sitem.

    You enjoy it?...have fun in it!

  • tachgbtachgb Member UncommonPosts: 791

    I respect it as a game design, I found it VERY odd when I started playing...Now I realise that almost everyone is crafting something and without some kind of limitation in place we'd be crafting worthless things because there would be so many on the auction house. The fact things use labour points also makes things more valuable. It's a crafting heavy game with a very large playerbase.

     

    Also, whener you use labour points, it's giving you money and/or experience.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,852
    Originally posted by Bad.dog
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    How's the LP system benefiting the economy so far?

    Seems pretty good ,,,,I'm more interested in how the LP system could be applied to forums , AA seems to be the first game that folks that don't play the game seem to have more knowledge and insight into the game than folks that are playing it !!'m starting to think some posters here are crying over spilled milk and have missed the boat on this one I mean what other game let's you p2p for years for $15 up front and  about 5 hours of work a month in game to stay active as a paying patron , and to add insult to injury they haven't charged anyone any playing time yet !!

    I have always loved crafting in MMOs, however, I have rarely ever seen a system implemented properly. I'm not even sure one can be. MMOs require leveling, leveling requires grinding, grinding produced items, causes flooding and obviously flooding diminishes values. This has been the staple process since I have started my 1st game. It's almost always been more profitable to sell the raw materials than a finished product. I have always seen this as ridiculous. But in AA, I see the possibility that a finished product can be actually more valuable. But I fear there are far too many trade-offs in the LP system. 

    I'd probably be OK with the system if it limited everyone equally, but the fact that with a little real money it can allow some players to surpass others and allow certain ones the freedom to flood the markets while others cannot, I don't see this as a good system.

  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,430
    Labor points are a big part if you are interested in the crafting/gathering arts for sure.  However, there is questing, pvp, trade runs, pirating, and other things which you can do that requires a relatively small amount of labor.  If you do want to go into crafting/gathering, you will definitely be restricted based on labor points.  This is true for both F2P and Patron.  I'm a patron and I still have labor issues.  For someone who is solely F2P, it will require more labor point efficiency to meet your goals.

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  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,935
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by grimal

     

    They are both grindy but is sounds like which type of grind you want.


     

    Of course not.

    Item decay means large supply, the items are produced in large volumes, which means they are easily affordable.

     

     

    You still need to collect the ingredients over and over to produce...that's where I meant grind.

    Even that was handled in mass production in SWG for the most part outside of rarer resource like Krayt scales, genoisian or mando parts.

     

    Kano described item decay as tedious.  To me, the LP seems grindy. I'm still trying to understand why LP is a better alternative.

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