Appart from the the obvious book analogy, if you buy a book and skim to the end then when you get there you don't charge about the chars and the ending is disjointed. Why buy a book and then skip through its content?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Why should you take your time levelling? Lack of end game content.
Once a game has been out long enough for there not to be a lack of end game content then if you want to speed level, go for it.
However, no game releases with 'enough' end game content. Therefore speed levelling in a new game simply leads players to run out of content and get bored. Then they invariably head to the forums and start bitching.
Devs cannot simply not release the game until there is 'enough' end game content as that would push the release back gods know how far, increasing development costs at a time when there is as yet no income from the game. They need the game to be released and drawing income to be able to build the end game content.
So, if you want to speed level in WoW or SWTOR or GW2, knock your socks off. If you want to speed in level in MMOX that released yesterday: You're still more than welcome to, just don't bitch when you get to max level and there isn't 'enough' end game content.
Stop apologizing on the behalf of MMO developers that made another MMO that don't last very long. Even if you don't speed level you will reach endgame within a month and experience the lack of endgame content.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
If you don't want to do quests etc. to lvl up just grind some WvW. Even before the NPE there would be times when you needed to grind some WvW depending on your class.
You definitely don't need to do wvw or questing (in GW2) to level, I levelled mostly by exploring + gathering and crafting. Bit off topic though. What levellIng gives is storytelling and exploring.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom Appart from the the obvious book analogy, if you buy a book and skim to the end then when you get there you don't charge about the chars and the ending is disjointed. Why buy a book and then skip through its content?
The book analogy does not work.
Book
The first chapter of a book is just as important as the last chapter. A book might take you 1 day or possibly several months to finish and once its over there is no more content to experience. You read a book solely for the story being told.
MMO
If you do not care about the story/lore, then killing an ogre at level 10 will have no real impact on your enjoyment of the game at level 60. You simply do not read an MMO, you participate in the world. Some people are more concerned about making their own story witin the MMO rather t han reading about someone else's. Storyline is but one part of an mmo that not all wish to read. Some people want to: craft, kill other players, kill epic monsters, explore, gain land, gain fame, gain notoriety, etc.
MMOrpg's are not fucking books. We take part in a fictional world in order to interact. If I was simply concerned about story I would read a book because thats what it focuses on, story. Just because someone wants to craft and never quest, that does not mean they are playing the game wrong. It means you should play the game how you want and quit judging how others wish to spend their time...
"WHY should I take my time leveling? I mean give me a legit reason..."
You shouldn't. If you want to reach max level as fast as possible then games should provide a way to do that.
But games would have more long-term players/subscribers imo if they *also* allowed people who didn't want to do that other ways to play.
For example the standard fast leveling way nowadays is the linear quest hub game which bores me senseless. I literally have to force myself through them just because I want to look at the scenery and see if there are any cool dragons at the end. The last time I tried one of the best known games I literally fell asleep in the newbie zone (true story) whereas in EQ or SWG I could happily dawdle for years. (I'm not saying they were better games I'm saying they were better for what I wanted.)
(They're not always bad - the main story in lotro and bits of SWTOR were good enough as single player games to be enjoyable (for me) but generally it's not like that.)
What I like is creating different race/class/craft combos and leveling up to mid levels in different zones in different ways and most of the newer games don't cater for that. Now I may be the only one but I doubt it. I think there's likely to be a dozen or more standard ways different types of player like to play but the games have gradually morphed into only catering to one play style.
He's a little story we have going on right now at work :
Several of us have got together to play classic WOW, maybe around six of us. Were having the best times of our lives questing together. At any given time about five of us are online using voice chat. Were still low level around thirteen or so questing in Westfall, slowly knocking off quest, laughing, joking and having some good old fashion fun. We get to work the next day and talk about our adventures from the night before. Were in no Hurry what so ever to do Deadmines at around level seventeen. It's not even talked about yet.
Now.....We have this other obnoxious friend that power levels games. He's in competition with everyone. He needs the absolute best gear and always strives for max. Decisions with him are sickening, you just feel like walking away with every conversation.
You never get the feeling " he's the best ". This is the shock-and-aw he's striving for. What you do get is " he's a nut case, I'd like to get away from him ".
What's the bottom line ?.......We don't invite him to play with us !!!
This logic doesnt make sense to me. Somebody here, give me a legit logical reason for why I should take my time leveling, when levels only limit my fun in the first place.
This part is the real trick and question.. "my fun".. What is your fun? Using WoW as an example, I could race through levels to reach max, then what? Do the same dozen dailies and run the SAME instances over and over and over? I don't call that fun, and that was the reason I left WoW.. The end game was mindless queuing, and doing dailies.. or are you looking at it from a PvP perspective?
For me, I don't care if the leveling is slow or fast, just as long as I NEVER run out of things to do that "I" enjoy. I play to be entertained nothing more, nothing less.. We could remove levels and replace it with skills, but isn't that roughly the same thing? Most people rush through levels because there isn't enough content to keep them satisfied.. plus most are brainwashed to believe that end game is where it's at.. And that often just turns out to be a gear grind.. In any case, people leave..
When I played EQ1 after it launched.. I never felt like I was wasting time leveling.. There was always enough content and community to keep me entertained.. In fact, when it comes to crafting (which I like to do), the faster you level the more worthless crafting becomes.. IMO.. Why spend time to craft a new tunic when you will outlevel it by the time you are done farming the mats you need to make it.. lmaooooo Silly stuff like that..
What these arguments usually consist of is the idea that
people should take their time leveling and features like this make people take their time .
But I had to stop and ask.
WHY should I take my time leveling? I mean give me a legit reason...
excluding developer made mechanics that limit leveling progression.
Why should I take my time?
usually people say, you need to level slow so you can enjoy the world design. But why do I need to do that? Doesnt Gw2 allow you to return to any zone you want to play in? so whats slow level have to do with that?
Some people also say slow leveling is needed to learn how to play. But how so, if a new player can still level by using auto attack or simply tagging mobs till max level and still not learn the full mechanics of the game. slowing the game level speed wont change that. in fact, that would likely bore players and make them leave before they even reach max level.
in fact, the reason I tend to speed level in MMOs, is because I want to play the game in full, not in pieces.
Using Gw2,Rift,WoW for examples, when I am leveling my character, he gains more skills to use as my character levels up, and gets to go to more zones, to do more things in the game world.
why would I want to spend long periods of my gaming time, leveling and being locked out of more skills to play with, and locked away from more zones to explore? being locked away from gameplay features because I am not a certain level, would most likely make me wont to level up faster not slower.
In vanilla WoW, the Large Scale PvP (Old AV) was at level 51-60. Well if I like large scale PvP, why would I want to take my time slowly playing level 1-30 and 30-51? why?
This logic doesnt make sense to me. Somebody here, give me a legit logical reason for why I should take my time leveling, when levels only limit my fun in the first place.
Actually there is another question hidden behind all that.
What do you favor more, a horizontal progression world design, or a vertical progression world design with more gated content. And to be clear.. horizontal progression worlds do have gated content, too. But usually not that much.
And it is everything than new, it is more or less as old as the genre.
In UO you could experience more or less the complete world from day 1. And after day 999 you could still experience more or less 100% of the world.
I always favoured a more horizontal progression approach with just a slightly vertical progression like UO, or like DAoC at lvl50. As a sidenote DAoC was very vertical progression from lvl1-50(more or less a 100% EQ clone), and after that you got a very slow vertical progression through RR levels(pvp progression), and a more horizontal progression, as most Realm Abilities(which you could buy with increasing RR level) introduced new abilities(horizontal), still some improved(vertical) existing abilities. In the past this often was the skill vs. level discussion, although it is not directly the same.
I always liked to be able to go everywhere, be able to play with all players(not only those in my level range), and was happy with progressing more horizontally. Of course there were some too though mobs in the beginning, but you could either overcome them with numbers and teamwork, or progressed more to get there. But noone was stopping you to actually try it out at day one.. and more often groups were formed between complete noobs and veterans, and it was viable. So i actually never really understood these vertical progression games like EQ, WoW and following. However, as those vertical games become a lot more popular, and nowadays are more or less the norm. So there have to be something, which attracts some kind of players more. I don't know what it might be.
And nowadays we have a new trend(almost funny, and 100% ridiculous) that you do have a high vertical progression a lot of people and companies try to skip(easier leveling, capable of buying xp potions and stuff) and the end game, were all of the endgame(-80% content of the starting levels) is available. And then i ask myself very often why in hell they don't make a more horizontally progression world from the very beginning? GW2 is a very good example for that.. there is absolutely no reason for their vertical progression in the leveling phase from 1-50, especially as you will get downleveled if you go back again.
This logic doesnt make sense to me. Somebody here, give me a legit logical reason for why I should take my time leveling, when levels only limit my fun in the first place.
This part is the real trick and question.. "my fun".. What is your fun? Using WoW as an example, I could race through levels to reach max, then what? Do the same dozen dailies and run the SAME instances over and over and over? I don't call that fun, and that was the reason I left WoW.. The end game was mindless queuing, and doing dailies.. or are you looking at it from a PvP perspective?
For me, I don't care if the leveling is slow or fast, just as long as I NEVER run out of things to do that "I" enjoy. I play to be entertained nothing more, nothing less.. We could remove levels and replace it with skills, but isn't that roughly the same thing? Most people rush through levels because there isn't enough content to keep them satisfied.. plus most are brainwashed to believe that end game is where it's at.. And that often just turns out to be a gear grind.. In any case, people leave..
When I played EQ1 after it launched.. I never felt like I was wasting time leveling.. There was always enough content and community to keep me entertained.. In fact, when it comes to crafting (which I like to do), the faster you level the more worthless crafting becomes.. IMO.. Why spend time to craft a new tunic when you will outlevel it by the time you are done farming the mats you need to make it.. lmaooooo Silly stuff like that..
I always take my time leveling, why to hurry/ There are gazillions of quests, areas to explore, materials to harvest and tons of stuff to craft. The only thing I didnt like about GW2 was the main story and the stupid Orr area where everything is root, stun, dead, root, stunt, dead. What the heck is that, mobs every 2 steps, plain stupid design.
If a game lends itself to slow leveling and taking everything in, then go slow...if not, go fast or don't play at all.
GW2 was fun in the first area I was in....when i got to the second I realized that the content (not the area) was identical to the content from the last area...next area the same...realized it wasn't worth my time to take my time and quit the game.
The Secret World, on the other hand, had very engaging quests and people to meet that all had a very different story to tell, so you were drawn in and didn't want to miss anything...so I leveled slow and finished the story as well as all hardmode dungeons....now I re-rolled and am starting again.
When it's worth my time, Ill give it my time...when it's not, I wont...there really isn't a yes or no answer, it's all preference.
Actually, what's the point in rushing to max level?
Because i don't see how endgame pvp and instance farming is rpg.
I enjoy leveling more, than doing the nonexistent endgame content...
So the reason peoplem might say, is because besides leveling, there is not much the games can offer these days.
If i want to instant pvp, i play smite.
I play RPG's for the story, to feel being part of another world.
Im yet to find an mmo that can offer me this, where the fun consists other things than wrecking another player, or running the same instance over and over for the best gear.
-
To be honest, i can't tell a legit reason why you should take your time.
But most people who rushes to max level ends up being useless in instances or pvp, either because the lack of gear or experience.
It might be different in your case, but it is true in many cases.
On a side note. Everyone should play the way they like, since we are playing for our entertainment, not to entertain others.
"WHY should I take my time leveling? I mean give me a legit reason..."
You shouldn't. If you want to reach max level as fast as possible then games should provide a way to do that.
But games would have more long-term players/subscribers imo if they *also* allowed people who didn't want to do that other ways to play.
For example the standard fast leveling way nowadays is the linear quest hub game which bores me senseless. I literally have to force myself through them just because I want to look at the scenery and see if there are any cool dragons at the end. The last time I tried one of the best known games I literally fell asleep in the newbie zone (true story) whereas in EQ or SWG I could happily dawdle for years. (I'm not saying they were better games I'm saying they were better for what I wanted.)
(They're not always bad - the main story in lotro and bits of SWTOR were good enough as single player games to be enjoyable (for me) but generally it's not like that.)
What I like is creating different race/class/craft combos and leveling up to mid levels in different zones in different ways and most of the newer games don't cater for that. Now I may be the only one but I doubt it. I think there's likely to be a dozen or more standard ways different types of player like to play but the games have gradually morphed into only catering to one play style.
The difference between EQ and WoW type games is that WoW streamlined questing. At first WoW was praised for its leveling system, it took away much of the busy work and gave everyone the gear they needed to do the dungeons and it was a good system and was extremely popular. But the problem is that it's been done to death. GW2 does it differently but it's basically the same, Rift does it, TSW does it, wildstar does it etc. etc. It doesn't matter if the story behind the quest is fantastic or boring as hell, it's the same boring types of quests we've been doing for years. It's boring. We all know it's boring, games journalist know it's boring, developers know it's boring and publishers know it's boring. Everyone knows it's a problem. The problem is fixing it so that quests and leveling become interesting again. But maybe the problem is so large we should do away with quests all together. This is why many people like me play MOBAs instead.
Players should level slowly so that their equipment lasts a long time. They will then actually purchase better gear (either in game or with real money) because it will last awhile.
I have not spent anything on gear in MMOs in decades. Why? Because in 15-30 minutes, I will get something to drop that more than likely will be better.
In WoW (the worst offender, in my opinion), I was so inundated with new "magical" gear that selling it all was almost a problem. I was continually switching out my gear for better drops. I even tried keeping gear for levels about 5 levels to high and by the time I got those levels, I have better stuff from drops. So keeping that bag space filled was no good either.
The last MMO I actually bought something in was EQ way back when. My patched leather armor lasted me about 15 levels (about a month and a half of time), before I was able to craft myself a full suit of leather.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
We all know it's boring, games journalist know it's boring, developers know it's boring and publishers know it's boring. Everyone knows it's a problem. The problem is fixing it so that quests and leveling become interesting again. But maybe the problem is so large we should do away with quests all together. This is why many people like me play MOBAs instead.
Like you say, devs know it. Hence Blizz decides not to make a new MMO, and make card games and MOBAs instead.
That is the solution. Don't make this type of game.
Like all of us that played MMO's during the early days were just a bunch of blithering idiots and "didn't realize" that this was just "gating content".
Guess what, we're not stupid.
There is a saying, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Its also commonly stated that nothing worth having comes easily.
MMO's when they started were about 2 things, 1. Persistent world, things happen when you log out, etc. 2. Actually needing more than 1 person to accomplish certain goals (something im sure you guys also view as "gating content")
Secondarily, they were RPGs, a core tenet of the RPG is progression. Since i'm pretty sure most people don't actually know what means, im going to define it for you:
pro·gres·sion
pr???reSH?n/
noun: progression
1. A movement or development toward a destination or a more advanced state, especially gradually or in stages.
See, what has happened is WOW ultra casualized the genre, especially in later years, to the point where they are basically single player games, played by people who are NOT rpg fans.
These are the same people who play these games the same way they would something like Street Fighter, where logically having to unlock fighters, etc, is dumb.
So you have a huge portion of people who are angry that a game they're playing isnt like another game they're playing, when it was never intended to be.
There are many people that want a persistent world that can evolve while having some sort of progression. I am sure todays WoW is probably not what the original developers intended it to be. MMO's evolve which is one aspect that people do enjoy that you give no credence to. Most single players games do not evolve like an MMO does.
People debate over which direction a game should take. Since these games can go in a myriad of directions, this debate is important because everyone wants the game to cater to their style of play. Now based on your opinion you assume to know what the developers intend a game to be and not that players took the time to research and the game promised was never given or the developers changed their goal for the game. AoC is a good example, bar fights was on the box yet did it ever even make it into the game?
You also speak of progression. Progression can exist in many ways: new gear, leveling, skill leveling, crafting, etc. Progression can also vary based on time and amount progressed. When I look at WoW, I see progression gone awry. One level you could have 50k health and the next level 400k health is now the new goal. For me, I do not like WoW's type of progression.
So the answer is not as simple as " you dont want to play an MMO, you want an FPS ". The answer is more like " this mmo is probably not right for you, time to look for a new one ".
You misunderstand what i was trying to say. Maybe i shouldnt of said "game" and should of said "genre".
What has happened to the MMORPG genre is the equivalent of a bunch of people seeing a formula 1 race, thinking its cool, wanting to get into it, getting into it, but then complaining that the cars only seat 1 person, and they should really seat 4, and that the cars are too hot and noisy, so they need air conditioning, and sound deadening. Oh, the cars are also uncomfortable rides, its too stiff, so we should soften up the suspension so its more comfortable.
Now, you have a bunch of minivans racing around a track. Its no longer formula 1.
That was my point.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
You misunderstand what i was trying to say. Maybe i shouldnt of said "game" and should of said "genre".
What has happened to the MMORPG genre is the equivalent of a bunch of people seeing a formula 1 race, thinking its cool, wanting to get into it, getting into it, but then complaining that the cars only seat 1 person, and they should really seat 4, and that the cars are too hot and noisy, so they need air conditioning, and sound deadening. Oh, the cars are also uncomfortable rides, its too stiff, so we should soften up the suspension so its more comfortable.
Now, you have a bunch of minivans racing around a track. Its no longer formula 1.
if mmo companies made fun games starting from lvl 1, then people would take their time more often to enjoy the game world and all its features. But no, they focus so much on max level content that they make abysmal lvl 1 through max experience.
If they are going to continue focusing on max level content only and making the other 99% of the game irrelevant then i expect instant max levels at character creation and all areas in the game be max lvl too.
EDIT: Or hey!!! save up some development cost and dont make character levels! and their respective content!.
^A great perspective IMO
The old MMOs had you from lvl 1 and made you earn the rest. I enjoyed that.
Originally posted by Battlerock
You really shouldn't take your time leveling. All the advantages are in place for max level.
^You are the ruin of MMOs...have fun with your games while they last.
If you read the rest of what I wrote, it's basically what you just agreed to, but worded differently, but you cut that part out and just took two sentences.
I don't believe I am the ruin of mmo's - if you like doing the same things over and over again all the way through level 99 then all they need to do is make that game for you. I don't like doing that, I just want them to make a game that appeals to me.
What rule is there that mmorpg's must have a boring leveling grind in place?
Take your time leveling if it's fun, otherwise rush through the boring stuff to get the fun part.
And the fun part is what? Raiding? Running heroics to gear up?
This in particular stands out from your post "if you like doing the same things over and over again all the way through level 99 then all they need to do is make that game for you. I don't like doing that, I just want them to make a game that appeals to me. "
So apparently the fun only starts when you begin doing the same thing over and over again, because that's exactly what raiding and heroics are. And PvP isn't much different on most games.
You could've simply said that all you care about is raiding, without the BS. On many recent MMO's the leveling experience is actually much more varied than the end game grind.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
I see 3 main reasons why people grind levels, atleast from my experience over 10 years of MMORPGs :
1. They want their time spent ingame to be worth more stuff.
Basicaly, if a level 10 gets 2 silver/mob, a lvl 50 will get like 50s/mob. Or get drops that are worth 50x more gold.
Being higher level, makes every since thing you do in the game wield a bigger reward. So naturaly people want to get higher gold/hour gain from going their daily ingame activities.
2. They want to play with others.
Basicaly one of the main issues most games have, is that a low level cannot do most content with a high level. This in turn forces people to play solo or with randoms, untill they get to that high level point. Also the bigger part of most populations in MMORPGs are max level after a few months, so if you want to play with them, you need to also be that level. Being low level just makes you feel like some outsider, who cant be in on the fun action. GW2 stepped in the right direction with the level scaling (not that its a new thing), but there are still high level raid type dungeons there that a new player cant get into.
3. They want to be stronger than others
The sooner you are max level, the sooner you are already stronger than anyone who is not also max level. I guess stays true more in the early stages of the servers. I see this the most, since I tend to only start MMORPGs at launch to be competitive, but it's still a thing even months later.
These 3 main points are what need fixing in current games, in my opinion. GW2 and Darkfall:UW have been doing a really good job at it so far. Especialy Darkfall, in that game a person playing for 10 hours can have the same gold gain as a guy playing for a year, excluding knowledge. I remember how I started a 2 week free trial there and in a few days I was already able to go do stuff with the highest level guys around, progression was more based on customization. Unlocking skills, getting money for dyes, better looking armor, which is baaaarely stronger.
If you can get past these 3 points, as in have 0 competitive spirit in you, then you should be able to just level at a slow pace and enjoy the leveling content, but that is not true for most people, thus the problem :P
I'm the hardcore player, the one that rushes lvl cap before you even finish the starting area.
Back then during the Eq2/WoW days, MMOs were new to people, so they didnt know that the Levels were really gating content.
That seems to be a very cynical way of looking at it. When you look at it that way you completely dismiss everything that comes between point A and point B. That's the important stuff.
It's like people saying that all Lineage 2 was about was grinding but completely dismissing everythign that happened before, during and after "grinding". Those were the actual "game parts".
People power leveled so they could get more "powerful" as "being more powerful" gave advantages. In pvp, in pve.
I also imagine that some people used the idea of being more powerful to bolster their image in the eyes of other players.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Stop apologizing on the behalf of MMO developers that made another MMO that don't last very long. Even if you don't speed level you will reach endgame within a month and experience the lack of endgame content.
If you don't want to do quests etc. to lvl up just grind some WvW. Even before the NPE there would be times when you needed to grind some WvW depending on your class.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
The book analogy does not work.
Book
The first chapter of a book is just as important as the last chapter. A book might take you 1 day or possibly several months to finish and once its over there is no more content to experience. You read a book solely for the story being told.
MMO
If you do not care about the story/lore, then killing an ogre at level 10 will have no real impact on your enjoyment of the game at level 60. You simply do not read an MMO, you participate in the world. Some people are more concerned about making their own story witin the MMO rather t han reading about someone else's. Storyline is but one part of an mmo that not all wish to read. Some people want to: craft, kill other players, kill epic monsters, explore, gain land, gain fame, gain notoriety, etc.
MMOrpg's are not fucking books. We take part in a fictional world in order to interact. If I was simply concerned about story I would read a book because thats what it focuses on, story. Just because someone wants to craft and never quest, that does not mean they are playing the game wrong. It means you should play the game how you want and quit judging how others wish to spend their time...
"WHY should I take my time leveling? I mean give me a legit reason..."
You shouldn't. If you want to reach max level as fast as possible then games should provide a way to do that.
But games would have more long-term players/subscribers imo if they *also* allowed people who didn't want to do that other ways to play.
For example the standard fast leveling way nowadays is the linear quest hub game which bores me senseless. I literally have to force myself through them just because I want to look at the scenery and see if there are any cool dragons at the end. The last time I tried one of the best known games I literally fell asleep in the newbie zone (true story) whereas in EQ or SWG I could happily dawdle for years. (I'm not saying they were better games I'm saying they were better for what I wanted.)
(They're not always bad - the main story in lotro and bits of SWTOR were good enough as single player games to be enjoyable (for me) but generally it's not like that.)
What I like is creating different race/class/craft combos and leveling up to mid levels in different zones in different ways and most of the newer games don't cater for that. Now I may be the only one but I doubt it. I think there's likely to be a dozen or more standard ways different types of player like to play but the games have gradually morphed into only catering to one play style.
He's a little story we have going on right now at work :
Several of us have got together to play classic WOW, maybe around six of us. Were having the best times of our lives questing together. At any given time about five of us are online using voice chat. Were still low level around thirteen or so questing in Westfall, slowly knocking off quest, laughing, joking and having some good old fashion fun. We get to work the next day and talk about our adventures from the night before. Were in no Hurry what so ever to do Deadmines at around level seventeen. It's not even talked about yet.
Now.....We have this other obnoxious friend that power levels games. He's in competition with everyone. He needs the absolute best gear and always strives for max. Decisions with him are sickening, you just feel like walking away with every conversation.
You never get the feeling " he's the best ". This is the shock-and-aw he's striving for. What you do get is " he's a nut case, I'd like to get away from him ".
What's the bottom line ?.......We don't invite him to play with us !!!
This part is the real trick and question.. "my fun".. What is your fun? Using WoW as an example, I could race through levels to reach max, then what? Do the same dozen dailies and run the SAME instances over and over and over? I don't call that fun, and that was the reason I left WoW.. The end game was mindless queuing, and doing dailies.. or are you looking at it from a PvP perspective?
For me, I don't care if the leveling is slow or fast, just as long as I NEVER run out of things to do that "I" enjoy. I play to be entertained nothing more, nothing less.. We could remove levels and replace it with skills, but isn't that roughly the same thing? Most people rush through levels because there isn't enough content to keep them satisfied.. plus most are brainwashed to believe that end game is where it's at.. And that often just turns out to be a gear grind.. In any case, people leave..
When I played EQ1 after it launched.. I never felt like I was wasting time leveling.. There was always enough content and community to keep me entertained.. In fact, when it comes to crafting (which I like to do), the faster you level the more worthless crafting becomes.. IMO.. Why spend time to craft a new tunic when you will outlevel it by the time you are done farming the mats you need to make it.. lmaooooo Silly stuff like that..
Actually there is another question hidden behind all that.
What do you favor more, a horizontal progression world design, or a vertical progression world design with more gated content. And to be clear.. horizontal progression worlds do have gated content, too. But usually not that much.
And it is everything than new, it is more or less as old as the genre.
In UO you could experience more or less the complete world from day 1. And after day 999 you could still experience more or less 100% of the world.
I always favoured a more horizontal progression approach with just a slightly vertical progression like UO, or like DAoC at lvl50. As a sidenote DAoC was very vertical progression from lvl1-50(more or less a 100% EQ clone), and after that you got a very slow vertical progression through RR levels(pvp progression), and a more horizontal progression, as most Realm Abilities(which you could buy with increasing RR level) introduced new abilities(horizontal), still some improved(vertical) existing abilities. In the past this often was the skill vs. level discussion, although it is not directly the same.
I always liked to be able to go everywhere, be able to play with all players(not only those in my level range), and was happy with progressing more horizontally. Of course there were some too though mobs in the beginning, but you could either overcome them with numbers and teamwork, or progressed more to get there. But noone was stopping you to actually try it out at day one.. and more often groups were formed between complete noobs and veterans, and it was viable. So i actually never really understood these vertical progression games like EQ, WoW and following. However, as those vertical games become a lot more popular, and nowadays are more or less the norm. So there have to be something, which attracts some kind of players more. I don't know what it might be.
And nowadays we have a new trend(almost funny, and 100% ridiculous) that you do have a high vertical progression a lot of people and companies try to skip(easier leveling, capable of buying xp potions and stuff) and the end game, were all of the endgame(-80% content of the starting levels) is available. And then i ask myself very often why in hell they don't make a more horizontally progression world from the very beginning? GW2 is a very good example for that.. there is absolutely no reason for their vertical progression in the leveling phase from 1-50, especially as you will get downleveled if you go back again.
100% Agreed. Could be my words, even.
i don't see any reason to take my time leveling . If you give me button to skip it , i will hit it right away lol .
Level design and character level wasn't same.
For example
in 2d shooting game , stages work as challenge . The more high level (stage) , the more hard.
In MMORPG , level up mean time you move to next contents which same mode with old contents , basically , there are no or very little challenge .
I know they are 2 difference kind of game , but as you see when compare , the level design of 2 kind of game difference while MMORPG is worst .
It just my opinion .
I've got nothing. You should play however you feel like playing and on your head be the consequences.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
If a game lends itself to slow leveling and taking everything in, then go slow...if not, go fast or don't play at all.
GW2 was fun in the first area I was in....when i got to the second I realized that the content (not the area) was identical to the content from the last area...next area the same...realized it wasn't worth my time to take my time and quit the game.
The Secret World, on the other hand, had very engaging quests and people to meet that all had a very different story to tell, so you were drawn in and didn't want to miss anything...so I leveled slow and finished the story as well as all hardmode dungeons....now I re-rolled and am starting again.
When it's worth my time, Ill give it my time...when it's not, I wont...there really isn't a yes or no answer, it's all preference.
Actually, what's the point in rushing to max level?
Because i don't see how endgame pvp and instance farming is rpg.I enjoy leveling more, than doing the nonexistent endgame content...
So the reason peoplem might say, is because besides leveling, there is not much the games can offer these days.
If i want to instant pvp, i play smite.
I play RPG's for the story, to feel being part of another world.
Im yet to find an mmo that can offer me this, where the fun consists other things than wrecking another player, or running the same instance over and over for the best gear.
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To be honest, i can't tell a legit reason why you should take your time.
But most people who rushes to max level ends up being useless in instances or pvp, either because the lack of gear or experience.
It might be different in your case, but it is true in many cases.
On a side note. Everyone should play the way they like, since we are playing for our entertainment, not to entertain others.
The difference between EQ and WoW type games is that WoW streamlined questing. At first WoW was praised for its leveling system, it took away much of the busy work and gave everyone the gear they needed to do the dungeons and it was a good system and was extremely popular. But the problem is that it's been done to death. GW2 does it differently but it's basically the same, Rift does it, TSW does it, wildstar does it etc. etc. It doesn't matter if the story behind the quest is fantastic or boring as hell, it's the same boring types of quests we've been doing for years. It's boring. We all know it's boring, games journalist know it's boring, developers know it's boring and publishers know it's boring. Everyone knows it's a problem. The problem is fixing it so that quests and leveling become interesting again. But maybe the problem is so large we should do away with quests all together. This is why many people like me play MOBAs instead.
How about from the business side of the equation?
Players should level slowly so that their equipment lasts a long time. They will then actually purchase better gear (either in game or with real money) because it will last awhile.
I have not spent anything on gear in MMOs in decades. Why? Because in 15-30 minutes, I will get something to drop that more than likely will be better.
In WoW (the worst offender, in my opinion), I was so inundated with new "magical" gear that selling it all was almost a problem. I was continually switching out my gear for better drops. I even tried keeping gear for levels about 5 levels to high and by the time I got those levels, I have better stuff from drops. So keeping that bag space filled was no good either.
The last MMO I actually bought something in was EQ way back when. My patched leather armor lasted me about 15 levels (about a month and a half of time), before I was able to craft myself a full suit of leather.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Like you say, devs know it. Hence Blizz decides not to make a new MMO, and make card games and MOBAs instead.
That is the solution. Don't make this type of game.
You misunderstand what i was trying to say. Maybe i shouldnt of said "game" and should of said "genre".
What has happened to the MMORPG genre is the equivalent of a bunch of people seeing a formula 1 race, thinking its cool, wanting to get into it, getting into it, but then complaining that the cars only seat 1 person, and they should really seat 4, and that the cars are too hot and noisy, so they need air conditioning, and sound deadening. Oh, the cars are also uncomfortable rides, its too stiff, so we should soften up the suspension so its more comfortable.
Now, you have a bunch of minivans racing around a track. Its no longer formula 1.
That was my point.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
^ this guy gets it. +1
And the fun part is what? Raiding? Running heroics to gear up?
This in particular stands out from your post "if you like doing the same things over and over again all the way through level 99 then all they need to do is make that game for you. I don't like doing that, I just want them to make a game that appeals to me. "
So apparently the fun only starts when you begin doing the same thing over and over again, because that's exactly what raiding and heroics are. And PvP isn't much different on most games.
You could've simply said that all you care about is raiding, without the BS. On many recent MMO's the leveling experience is actually much more varied than the end game grind.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
yu actually got 2 choices op yu culd either go find a game tht offers yu what yu want frm th start or make yur own game
for ow pvp go play games like ps2 to take one xample theres no pve there just pvp frm start
I see 3 main reasons why people grind levels, atleast from my experience over 10 years of MMORPGs :
1. They want their time spent ingame to be worth more stuff.
Basicaly, if a level 10 gets 2 silver/mob, a lvl 50 will get like 50s/mob. Or get drops that are worth 50x more gold.
Being higher level, makes every since thing you do in the game wield a bigger reward. So naturaly people want to get higher gold/hour gain from going their daily ingame activities.
2. They want to play with others.
Basicaly one of the main issues most games have, is that a low level cannot do most content with a high level. This in turn forces people to play solo or with randoms, untill they get to that high level point. Also the bigger part of most populations in MMORPGs are max level after a few months, so if you want to play with them, you need to also be that level. Being low level just makes you feel like some outsider, who cant be in on the fun action. GW2 stepped in the right direction with the level scaling (not that its a new thing), but there are still high level raid type dungeons there that a new player cant get into.
3. They want to be stronger than others
The sooner you are max level, the sooner you are already stronger than anyone who is not also max level. I guess stays true more in the early stages of the servers. I see this the most, since I tend to only start MMORPGs at launch to be competitive, but it's still a thing even months later.
These 3 main points are what need fixing in current games, in my opinion. GW2 and Darkfall:UW have been doing a really good job at it so far. Especialy Darkfall, in that game a person playing for 10 hours can have the same gold gain as a guy playing for a year, excluding knowledge. I remember how I started a 2 week free trial there and in a few days I was already able to go do stuff with the highest level guys around, progression was more based on customization. Unlocking skills, getting money for dyes, better looking armor, which is baaaarely stronger.
If you can get past these 3 points, as in have 0 competitive spirit in you, then you should be able to just level at a slow pace and enjoy the leveling content, but that is not true for most people, thus the problem :P
I'm the hardcore player, the one that rushes lvl cap before you even finish the starting area.
That seems to be a very cynical way of looking at it. When you look at it that way you completely dismiss everything that comes between point A and point B. That's the important stuff.
It's like people saying that all Lineage 2 was about was grinding but completely dismissing everythign that happened before, during and after "grinding". Those were the actual "game parts".
People power leveled so they could get more "powerful" as "being more powerful" gave advantages. In pvp, in pve.
I also imagine that some people used the idea of being more powerful to bolster their image in the eyes of other players.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo