Sir, but, but ... you have to understand this truck has a faulty engine and no steering wheel. If you don't fix the engine and add a steering wheel it will crash!
*blank stare*
I would never buy a truck w/o a steering wheel to begin with.
Bingo!
And neither would the vast majority of people.
I knew someone would eventually chime in and bring the point home.
/end thread.
EVE has 500K subs. Pretty sure there is no actual evidence that "Niche game without PVE only server" = "Truck without a steering wheel".
EVE is an anomaly, like World of Warcraft. I don't care how EVE was successful and the others weren't. The fact is that no other sandbox PvP MMO has succeeded on the same scale that EVE has. So, as a developer, you have to seriously consider the reason for making a PvP-based MMO without some serious design considerations to attract a large enough crowd to sustain the game.
The PvE crowd is significantly larger than the PvP crowd. People are not mutually exclusive to either crowd, but PvE players tend to get more frustrated by unfair advantages given to the other side in PvP. Allowing those advantages (like level-capped players griefing lowbies) to happen will only result in the PvE players leaving the game. The final outcome is what became of Darkfall: a dark mess of griefers who only have each other to grief and won't let any new players in the game try to mount up any sort of challenge for them.
EVE is an anomaly, like World of Warcraft. I don't care how EVE was successful and the others weren't. The fact is that no other sandbox PvP MMO has succeeded on the same scale that EVE has. So, as a developer, you have to seriously consider the reason for making a PvP-based MMO without some serious design considerations to attract a large enough crowd to sustain the game.
The PvE crowd is significantly larger than the PvP crowd. People are not mutually exclusive to either crowd, but PvE players tend to get more frustrated by unfair advantages given to the other side in PvP. Allowing those advantages (like level-capped players griefing lowbies) to happen will only result in the PvE players leaving the game. The final outcome is what became of Darkfall: a dark mess of griefers who only have each other to grief and won't let any new players in the game try to mount up any sort of challenge for them.
EVE is successful because it does PVP pretty well and allows you to mostly avoid PVP if you wish to and are careful. You are equating all PVP with griefing (which I hate and don't support) . A veteran player shouldn't be allowed to grief a noob. PVP should happen in certain areas for game appropriate reasons (there is a war going on or you are in a dangerous bandit-infested area which you've deliberately risked going in). I haven't played Darkfall but from what I've heard it's a griefers paradise with very little actual meaningful PVP. I don't even really like PVPing usually, but I think a sandbox needs a certain sense of danger in the world. You just need to implement PVP well and carefully.
or the game will rot into obscurity. Crafters will quit and griefers will tire of each other leaving too few players. Open world full loot PvP is naturally antagonistic to a sophisticated economy in this way.
5. I want to host a PvE only server, is that possible?
Not yet, but you will be able to protect your server with a password or kick users that are not following your PvE only rules. On later stages of development we plan to implement “NO PvP” option.
It looks like you will be able to create personal servers where you can play by your rules and have the option of booting players if they don't abide them. And a no PvP option at a later date.
I don't think you can ask for more than that.
This should probably be sticked.
Nope, not in it's current form. Without any link to prove it, it's worthless.
Not that I have any reason to lie about it but you are right I guess.
If so, then I guess PvP isn't what attracts people to this game after all.
Sandbox game needs PvP, because ultimately it is PvP that drives the economy. Take out PvP - and players do not need armor, weapons, castles, walls, etc - and economy just stops. Even if PvP is not very attractive - it needs to be there.
Sir, but, but ... you have to understand this truck has a faulty engine and no steering wheel. If you don't fix the engine and add a steering wheel it will crash!
*blank stare*
I would never buy a truck w/o a steering wheel to begin with.
Bingo!
And neither would the vast majority of people.
I knew someone would eventually chime in and bring the point home.
/end thread.
EVE has 500K subs. Pretty sure there is no actual evidence that "Niche game without PVE only server" = "Truck without a steering wheel".
EVE is an anomaly, like World of Warcraft. I don't care how EVE was successful and the others weren't. The fact is that no other sandbox PvP MMO has succeeded on the same scale that EVE has. So, as a developer, you have to seriously consider the reason for making a PvP-based MMO without some serious design considerations to attract a large enough crowd to sustain the game.
The PvE crowd is significantly larger than the PvP crowd. People are not mutually exclusive to either crowd, but PvE players tend to get more frustrated by unfair advantages given to the other side in PvP. Allowing those advantages (like level-capped players griefing lowbies) to happen will only result in the PvE players leaving the game. The final outcome is what became of Darkfall: a dark mess of griefers who only have each other to grief and won't let any new players in the game try to mount up any sort of challenge for them.
The lack of successful open PvP games is not due to the open PvP factor. It is due to the majority of those games being poorly done. Loads of bugs, crappy performance, poor implementation of features and mechanics, bad performance, etc. The games actually bring in a large number of players initially BECAUSE open PvP is appealing to a lot more than you would like to admit. But they quickly leave due to the game being loaded with issues.
Look at games like Darkfall which had huge hype behind them because of things like open PvP. Yet the game turned out to be horribly broken to the point where along with having to completely remake the game and relaunch it as DFUW in oder to salvage it, even DFUW has had to have many updates to be considered anything close to "good" even by long time players.
Same thing with Mortal. Lots of initial hype. Very poorly done + broken game made by another indie company.
Unfortunately for the PvPers, WoW was a huge success. So all the big companies try to replicate that success and come out with the same type of games rather than backing something different like a sandbox game with a heavy focus on open world PvP. I mean hey, it works for them. They sell millions upon millions of copies of WoW clones year after year without having to come up with anything original or challenging, rake in the cash, then let the games die a slow death while run by a skeleton crew. Until people stop buying into that we wont see any other style of games being backed by teams of 100+ people and $100m + budgets.
Maybe one of these days we will finally see a AAA version of something like Darkfall or MO made by people who can do it properly and have the funding to add much more to the game without having to cut corners.
Originally posted by Kyleran Someday maybe we'll see a shift in player thinking and they'll be a bit tougher,more resilient,more accepting of gameplay elements that require more teamwork than they previously were used to.
Not that I've seen much indication of this recently but one can always hope for change.
Kyleran, you know better than that. For many, if not most, PvE players it has nothing to do with lacking toughness, or resilience, or accepting game play elements. This is a misconception that many PvP players have about PvE players. Is it really your opinion that players behind a computer screen fear getting their pixels killed or ganked? I know you can't possibly believe that. What PvE players seek is comfort and leisure in their games without provocation, confrontation, hectic twitch game mechanics and trash talking immature behavior. It is simply a different preference in game play perhaps driven behind predisposed real life personality. Consideration goes a long way sometimes. Though it appears to be in short supply nowadays.
You've just explained why they make single player games. No reason for PVE players to bother with an MMO because all your reasons for not wanting PVP are seen on your PVE servers as well short of actual ganking. Training, kill stealing, trash talking, etc, etc, etc. It's all there. You just want to live an illusion inside your fantasy.
Crafters will quit and griefers will tire of each other leaving too few players. Open world full loot PvP is naturally antagonistic to a sophisticated economy in this way.
i know i'm always the one who says this, but
google "eve online" before you hypothesize about economies not working in a pvp environment.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Originally posted by Kyleran Someday maybe we'll see a shift in player thinking and they'll be a bit tougher,more resilient,more accepting of gameplay elements that require more teamwork than they previously were used to.
Not that I've seen much indication of this recently but one can always hope for change.
It not really a matter of toughness, resiliency or accepting the need for teamwork. It has to do with a diverse game experience.
The reality is that full loot/open world PVP tends to devolve to its lower common denominator. While it may contain crafting, exploring and social potential, these tend over time to get crushed under the boot of players whose sole purpose for logging in is to kill other players. These self-described "hard core" types tend to build nothing, preferring a parasitic approach that simply takes from others. They tend to add nothing to the social and community aspects of a game, because basically their idea of interaction is to mash attack buttons.
As far as "teamwork" the reality is that if something is at risk, as it is in full loot, this translates to forming a "zerg." As a game server ages, the dominant zergs tend to become larger and fewer, until you have maybe two of them. By this time, the zergs have driven out almost all the smaller guilds/groupings. The server stagnates eventually when one blob becomes so large it dominates. Years ago playing Shadowbane - one of the best full loot/PVP games made - I saw this happen over and over.
i like PVP. But I also like a game world of diversity. Experience has shown that, unless well-designed to allow space for alternative playstyles, full loot/open world runs into the above problems. I don't think the Mortal or Darkfall examples disprove this - unless the idea is to create and remain in a limited niche.
I see a lot of references to Ultima Online and EVE. Both games aren't full PvP. Great areas in UO were safe and also a lot of areas in EVE are safe. It gives starting players the chance to grow, find a community and become able to PvP......if they want to.
If a game is full PvP and it is possible that experienced players can kill starting players or it is possible that a group of players can destroy whatever a player has build up in a few years of play, the game is bound to fail. Most people do not invest in games in which they can loose everything or get bullied by other players.
So there needs to be a good balance in the game. Does LiF have that balance? I am new to this game and started to read the forums. This balance is very important to me. I like the sandbox, crafting aspect of the game and the feudal setting, but I am not much into PvP. I did a very good job in both UO and EVE to avoid it as much as possible and at least in UO I could avoid most PK's and reach the ultimate in mage, craftsman and warrior. I hope LiF can accommodate players like me.
Edit: I just read the information on alignment effecting the loss of experience and skill and the "I yield" method to create a kind of win-win situation between killer and victim. That could work.
or the game will rot into obscurity. Crafters will quit and griefers will tire of each other leaving too few players. Open world full loot PvP is naturally antagonistic to a sophisticated economy in this way.
I can't figure out what these game dev's are thinking when they do this. Its like they don't know anything about the real world of the majority of mmo player's. They come up with a money making idea then shoot themselves in the foot. I swear i wish i could sit in on a meeting with these guys just to see it happen and shake my head. Could mmorpg.com bring any panel of mmo game dev's together so real world mmo player's could ask them what the deal is. You want to make money then you should appeal to all game styles. Its a no brainer that the next big mmo will do this.
or the game will rot into obscurity. Crafters will quit and griefers will tire of each other leaving too few players. Open world full loot PvP is naturally antagonistic to a sophisticated economy in this way.
I can't figure out what these game dev's are thinking when they do this. Its like they don't know anything about the real world of the majority of mmo player's. They come up with a money making idea then shoot themselves in the foot. I swear i wish i could sit in on a meeting with these guys just to see it happen and shake my head. Could mmorpg.com bring any panel of mmo game dev's together so real world mmo player's could ask them what the deal is. You want to make money then you should appeal to all game styles. Its a no brainer that the next big mmo will do this.
To me it shows that at the end of the day they're still gamers like you and me.
And all with individual tastes. Unfortunately in this case I don't think my tastes and theirs happen to line up.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Originally posted by Kyleran Someday maybe we'll see a shift in player thinking and they'll be a bit tougher,more resilient,more accepting of gameplay elements that require more teamwork than they previously were used to.
Not that I've seen much indication of this recently but one can always hope for change.
Im sick of the toughness or PVE players are "afraid" argument. I was in the Marine Corps for 4 years as a dude that shot missiles off my shoulder. im the front man in an old school punk rock band that incites violence on stage and tries to make myself bleed.
The last thing I am is scared and the last thing I lack is toughness.
I just don't want to be disturbed by the PVP community. I'm an RPG lover. I like MMO's because they are massively multiplayer RPG's. If I want a MOBA Ill go play one, but I don't.
Originally posted by Kyleran Someday maybe we'll see a shift in player thinking and they'll be a bit tougher,more resilient,more accepting of gameplay elements that require more teamwork than they previously were used to.
Not that I've seen much indication of this recently but one can always hope for change.
Im sick of the toughness or PVE players are "afraid" argument. I was in the Marine Corps for 4 years as a dude that shot missiles off my shoulder. im the front man in an old school punk rock band that incites violence on stage and tries to make myself bleed.
The last thing I am is scared and the last thing I lack is toughness.
I just don't want to be disturbed by the PVP community. I'm an RPG lover. I like MMO's because they are massively multiplayer RPG's. If I want a MOBA Ill go play one, but I don't.
But here's the deal... the game is advertised to be a full-loot antagonistic PVP game... why would you even play it if that isn't the sort of game you like to play? It's like trying to turn the Marines into Hello Kitty Online. The Marines didn't join you, you joined the Marines. Hello Kitty Online is over there... next to the Air Force recruiter.
Originally posted by Kyleran Someday maybe we'll see a shift in player thinking and they'll be a bit tougher,more resilient,more accepting of gameplay elements that require more teamwork than they previously were used to.
Not that I've seen much indication of this recently but one can always hope for change.
I don't think they have to be more accepting of gameplay elements that they don't like. What I DO think they have to be more accepting of is that fact that not everything needs to be made for them and that developers have the right to make games that focus on specific demographics.
But for some reason certain people take it personally that their specific tastes aren't being catered to.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Kyleran Someday maybe we'll see a shift in player thinking and they'll be a bit tougher,more resilient,more accepting of gameplay elements that require more teamwork than they previously were used to.
Not that I've seen much indication of this recently but one can always hope for change.
Im sick of the toughness or PVE players are "afraid" argument. I was in the Marine Corps for 4 years as a dude that shot missiles off my shoulder. im the front man in an old school punk rock band that incites violence on stage and tries to make myself bleed.
The last thing I am is scared and the last thing I lack is toughness.
I just don't want to be disturbed by the PVP community. I'm an RPG lover. I like MMO's because they are massively multiplayer RPG's. If I want a MOBA Ill go play one, but I don't.
But here's the deal... the game is advertised to be a full-loot antagonistic PVP game... why would you even play it if that isn't the sort of game you like to play? It's like trying to turn the Marines into Hello Kitty Online. The Marines didn't join you, you joined the Marines. Hello Kitty Online is over there... next to the Air Force recruiter.
I agree, was just responding to a poster that attributed PVE'ers to just being weak and afraid. I never promote myself as some tough guy or anything, I'd just like the PVE'er misconception to be squashed. It has nothing to do with toughness, if anything, I'd assume that PVP'ers might be overcompensating, but I don't do that, because it might not be true.
If so, then I guess PvP isn't what attracts people to this game after all.
Sandbox game needs PvP, because ultimately it is PvP that drives the economy. Take out PvP - and players do not need armor, weapons, castles, walls, etc - and economy just stops. Even if PvP is not very attractive - it needs to be there.
This is a pretty weak argument, and even weaker if a developer takes the time to promote economy that isn't driven by people killing each other. PvP is just the easiest method to this end.
Item degradation via use and time will ensure that all items will need to be replaced. Minecraft is a good, basic example of item degradation via use. Castle walls, doors, etc. could be made to degrade over time as well as from taking damage. Crafters would be required to maintain/repair player infrastructure.
Creating fairly intelligent AI should be well within the means of a game developer these days. You could make certain mobs become territorial in various ways. Like a pack of wolves could be coded to attack livestock/players/other mobs within a certain area. In the same area, Orcs (for example) could also be territorial, but they would also outright attack player infrastructure within the confines of their perceived territory. Just because most developers choose to not program intelligent AI doesn't mean that it cannot exist.
Don't get me wrong, I am a PvP player that also enjoys a fair bit of PvE. The biggest problem with all out pvp in most games is that there are no lasting penalties to being a mass murderer.
Comments
EVE is an anomaly, like World of Warcraft. I don't care how EVE was successful and the others weren't. The fact is that no other sandbox PvP MMO has succeeded on the same scale that EVE has. So, as a developer, you have to seriously consider the reason for making a PvP-based MMO without some serious design considerations to attract a large enough crowd to sustain the game.
The PvE crowd is significantly larger than the PvP crowd. People are not mutually exclusive to either crowd, but PvE players tend to get more frustrated by unfair advantages given to the other side in PvP. Allowing those advantages (like level-capped players griefing lowbies) to happen will only result in the PvE players leaving the game. The final outcome is what became of Darkfall: a dark mess of griefers who only have each other to grief and won't let any new players in the game try to mount up any sort of challenge for them.
EVE is successful because it does PVP pretty well and allows you to mostly avoid PVP if you wish to and are careful. You are equating all PVP with griefing (which I hate and don't support) . A veteran player shouldn't be allowed to grief a noob. PVP should happen in certain areas for game appropriate reasons (there is a war going on or you are in a dangerous bandit-infested area which you've deliberately risked going in). I haven't played Darkfall but from what I've heard it's a griefers paradise with very little actual meaningful PVP. I don't even really like PVPing usually, but I think a sandbox needs a certain sense of danger in the world. You just need to implement PVP well and carefully.
what?
If so, then I guess PvP isn't what attracts people to this game after all.
Sandbox game needs PvP, because ultimately it is PvP that drives the economy. Take out PvP - and players do not need armor, weapons, castles, walls, etc - and economy just stops. Even if PvP is not very attractive - it needs to be there.
The lack of successful open PvP games is not due to the open PvP factor. It is due to the majority of those games being poorly done. Loads of bugs, crappy performance, poor implementation of features and mechanics, bad performance, etc. The games actually bring in a large number of players initially BECAUSE open PvP is appealing to a lot more than you would like to admit. But they quickly leave due to the game being loaded with issues.
Look at games like Darkfall which had huge hype behind them because of things like open PvP. Yet the game turned out to be horribly broken to the point where along with having to completely remake the game and relaunch it as DFUW in oder to salvage it, even DFUW has had to have many updates to be considered anything close to "good" even by long time players.
Same thing with Mortal. Lots of initial hype. Very poorly done + broken game made by another indie company.
Unfortunately for the PvPers, WoW was a huge success. So all the big companies try to replicate that success and come out with the same type of games rather than backing something different like a sandbox game with a heavy focus on open world PvP. I mean hey, it works for them. They sell millions upon millions of copies of WoW clones year after year without having to come up with anything original or challenging, rake in the cash, then let the games die a slow death while run by a skeleton crew. Until people stop buying into that we wont see any other style of games being backed by teams of 100+ people and $100m + budgets.
Maybe one of these days we will finally see a AAA version of something like Darkfall or MO made by people who can do it properly and have the funding to add much more to the game without having to cut corners.
You've just explained why they make single player games. No reason for PVE players to bother with an MMO because all your reasons for not wanting PVP are seen on your PVE servers as well short of actual ganking. Training, kill stealing, trash talking, etc, etc, etc. It's all there. You just want to live an illusion inside your fantasy.
i know i'm always the one who says this, but
google "eve online" before you hypothesize about economies not working in a pvp environment.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
It not really a matter of toughness, resiliency or accepting the need for teamwork. It has to do with a diverse game experience.
The reality is that full loot/open world PVP tends to devolve to its lower common denominator. While it may contain crafting, exploring and social potential, these tend over time to get crushed under the boot of players whose sole purpose for logging in is to kill other players. These self-described "hard core" types tend to build nothing, preferring a parasitic approach that simply takes from others. They tend to add nothing to the social and community aspects of a game, because basically their idea of interaction is to mash attack buttons.
As far as "teamwork" the reality is that if something is at risk, as it is in full loot, this translates to forming a "zerg." As a game server ages, the dominant zergs tend to become larger and fewer, until you have maybe two of them. By this time, the zergs have driven out almost all the smaller guilds/groupings. The server stagnates eventually when one blob becomes so large it dominates. Years ago playing Shadowbane - one of the best full loot/PVP games made - I saw this happen over and over.
i like PVP. But I also like a game world of diversity. Experience has shown that, unless well-designed to allow space for alternative playstyles, full loot/open world runs into the above problems. I don't think the Mortal or Darkfall examples disprove this - unless the idea is to create and remain in a limited niche.
I see a lot of references to Ultima Online and EVE. Both games aren't full PvP. Great areas in UO were safe and also a lot of areas in EVE are safe. It gives starting players the chance to grow, find a community and become able to PvP......if they want to.
If a game is full PvP and it is possible that experienced players can kill starting players or it is possible that a group of players can destroy whatever a player has build up in a few years of play, the game is bound to fail. Most people do not invest in games in which they can loose everything or get bullied by other players.
So there needs to be a good balance in the game. Does LiF have that balance? I am new to this game and started to read the forums. This balance is very important to me. I like the sandbox, crafting aspect of the game and the feudal setting, but I am not much into PvP. I did a very good job in both UO and EVE to avoid it as much as possible and at least in UO I could avoid most PK's and reach the ultimate in mage, craftsman and warrior. I hope LiF can accommodate players like me.
Edit: I just read the information on alignment effecting the loss of experience and skill and the "I yield" method to create a kind of win-win situation between killer and victim. That could work.
I can't figure out what these game dev's are thinking when they do this. Its like they don't know anything about the real world of the majority of mmo player's. They come up with a money making idea then shoot themselves in the foot. I swear i wish i could sit in on a meeting with these guys just to see it happen and shake my head. Could mmorpg.com bring any panel of mmo game dev's together so real world mmo player's could ask them what the deal is. You want to make money then you should appeal to all game styles. Its a no brainer that the next big mmo will do this.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
To me it shows that at the end of the day they're still gamers like you and me.
And all with individual tastes. Unfortunately in this case I don't think my tastes and theirs happen to line up.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Im sick of the toughness or PVE players are "afraid" argument. I was in the Marine Corps for 4 years as a dude that shot missiles off my shoulder. im the front man in an old school punk rock band that incites violence on stage and tries to make myself bleed.
The last thing I am is scared and the last thing I lack is toughness.
I just don't want to be disturbed by the PVP community. I'm an RPG lover. I like MMO's because they are massively multiplayer RPG's. If I want a MOBA Ill go play one, but I don't.
But here's the deal... the game is advertised to be a full-loot antagonistic PVP game... why would you even play it if that isn't the sort of game you like to play? It's like trying to turn the Marines into Hello Kitty Online. The Marines didn't join you, you joined the Marines. Hello Kitty Online is over there... next to the Air Force recruiter.
I don't think they have to be more accepting of gameplay elements that they don't like. What I DO think they have to be more accepting of is that fact that not everything needs to be made for them and that developers have the right to make games that focus on specific demographics.
But for some reason certain people take it personally that their specific tastes aren't being catered to.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I agree, was just responding to a poster that attributed PVE'ers to just being weak and afraid. I never promote myself as some tough guy or anything, I'd just like the PVE'er misconception to be squashed. It has nothing to do with toughness, if anything, I'd assume that PVP'ers might be overcompensating, but I don't do that, because it might not be true.
This is a pretty weak argument, and even weaker if a developer takes the time to promote economy that isn't driven by people killing each other. PvP is just the easiest method to this end.
Item degradation via use and time will ensure that all items will need to be replaced. Minecraft is a good, basic example of item degradation via use. Castle walls, doors, etc. could be made to degrade over time as well as from taking damage. Crafters would be required to maintain/repair player infrastructure.
Creating fairly intelligent AI should be well within the means of a game developer these days. You could make certain mobs become territorial in various ways. Like a pack of wolves could be coded to attack livestock/players/other mobs within a certain area. In the same area, Orcs (for example) could also be territorial, but they would also outright attack player infrastructure within the confines of their perceived territory. Just because most developers choose to not program intelligent AI doesn't mean that it cannot exist.
Don't get me wrong, I am a PvP player that also enjoys a fair bit of PvE. The biggest problem with all out pvp in most games is that there are no lasting penalties to being a mass murderer.