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What will the PVP be like? Any word on EVE esque territory control or player looting?

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  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,094
    Originally posted by Rydeson

         I"m not going to get into details, because I'll be rehashing everything again and we'll be back to step 1..  However that red part I highlighted is the reason I responded..  YOU said exactly the concern you seem to be debating me on.. YOU nor I or anyone , NOT EVEN SONY THEMSELVES know how any of this will play out in a fully run game..  Everything said by you, me and everyone is possibilties and probable outcomes..  What everyone says caries the same weight of conviction and truth.. I have NEVER once said you were wrong, I have always said, BECAREFUL  because as a devils advocate if you do NOT prepared for what can go wrong, it will go wrong..  "MURPHY'S LAW"..  

    I do agree with this. Although, I've yet to see what SOE is attempting ever done before. Have to look at the whole picture. The current tech, game market, genre, what players are playing and what they want to be, what has/hasn't worked in the past, all of the parts that will make up EQN, etc. Not just "people don't want smart AI because it was tried back in 2003 and 39 internal testers hated it." If I missed games that have tried to pull off what Storybricks/SOE is doing, please educate me as I obviously missed them.

    There are people that want the shiny lootz asap and will go the easiest route possible, there are also those that would rather not have those easy route available and have achievements actually mean something to them. SOE would be wise to appeal to both groups along with many others. One way to please them all isn't going to work. If the AI is very rigid where a bunny can outsmart me, game is probably going to have issues.

    Common sense tells me that EQN could be a total flop if things don't go as planned or simply people don't like it. No way to know what people will do. Could be 10 million within the first year or 10 thousand. We shall see.

    It is wise to not blindly believe what SOE is hyping or assume that is will all magically happen, but at the same time I can't speak for the millions upon millions of gamers out there. Until we are presented with something and give it  try, I don't think we can truly say we will like it or not based on assumptions. We all do of course, but I'm betting many of those that are hating EQN now will be playing it for years and many head over heals in love with it will uninstall after their first play session. We are a fickle bunch.

    Of all the games out and coming, I think EQN has the most potential to hit enough bullet points for enough players to make it a success. All hangs on how well they manage to put it together. Hopefully we get our hands on some version next year (Smed once again tossed 2015 out during SOE Live) and we can start to actually make opinions based on reality and not assumptions.

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    A few things regarding a "moving" world and the absence of static content:

    Dave has mentioned in a few interviews about EQN being a socially focused MMO and has specifically mentioned the connection between crafters who need mats and adventurers that get them.

    The Rohsong is the main vehicle of finding out what is going on immediately around you as well as tracking other aspects of your play.

    The SB guys shined a light on events farther out, mentioning going to a tavern or inn to know what may be happening in the next area over. They also talked about ways to tailor how you play and get guidance to that content.

    I believe they are fully aware of what may or nay not happen if/once they start a world that can react and form to what the players do. There may indeed be a subset of the playerbase that does not like this but if SoE were worried about it they would have released the first or second iteration of "me too" EQ3.

    If EQN is fun while also being intuitive where things make sense I sure players will figure it out and appreciate a more lively world.
  • InfantryonlineInfantryonline Member Posts: 113

    The world is going to kick ass. This is the first time an mmo is attempting to make the world that's less static and constantly changing. Thats the only mmo i can think of for me that would last more than a year of play time or more. If they manage to complete as they state it. Will it be a success? That actually depends on other games coming out to steal thunder from its initial release. First time i saying this because games usually run by their merit but just looking at the comments of people judging an SOE game i found conclusions. They look for other games first. Just to break the entitlement mentality of gamers they would have to change the games themselves. Until they are much funner than what gamers are used to. But other game companies give what these gamers want. 1-2 highly pioritized mechanics that gets bought 9 out of 10. But mmorpgs are different. THey want the complete package. They are also the riskiest and most expensive game type to make. Will SOE, a company that has to change the genre a bit just to make money make a breakout game? Certainly everything about it is uncharted but it has TONS of potential. 

    (But as i skim through various comments about Landmark i get a feel that they just can't do anything right. And the marketing team just SITS there. If this was Blizzard they would have released a cinimetic by now. SOE just has poor marketers) 

    ...That's essentially what being smug is. Acting like you're so blatantly right that even the thought of someone disagreeing with you is appallingly stupid and comical. you have a good chance of bullying them into believing you.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

         Well Allein..  we'll see what the future holds and see if the market has changed any..  Original EQ moved away from adventuring for action because too many players voiced their displeasure..  Remember when Druids and Rangers could "track" because people needed a certain zone-wide roaming mobs for their quest or loot?  That was deemed too much of an inconvenience by the thousands that played it.. OH Sure I as a druid loved it, and so did many others, but our voice was so minor, SOE ignored us..  Same with porting and instant travel..  When was the last game that promoted zone wide roaming mobs?  I cant' think of any since EQ..  .. oops.. With a slight exception for Blizzard that did have some mobs that roamed during the BC expansion..  It's why random timers on mobs went away too.. People in general like "PREDICTABILITY".. when playing their hobby game..

         Now as for the combat AI..  Blizzard attempted this briefly in the Cataclysm expansion and MILLIONS of players screamed that it was too hard..  Mobs would ignore taunt, or couldn't be CC'd.. etc etc.. and the player base said NO THANKS.. So what did Blizzard do.. NERFED the combat back to the predictable level of play..  Now what EQN is doing is different coding, but the philosophy is still the same.. Will players tolerate unpredictable behavior by mobs?  I'm sure PvP type players will love it, but not sure most will..  Couple that with twitch combat, and you corner yourself in a very small market..  I suspect smaller then EQ2's player base.. 

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,094
    Originally posted by Rydeson

         Well Allein..  we'll see what the future holds and see if the market has changed any..  Original EQ moved away from adventuring for action because too many players voiced their displeasure..  Remember when Druids and Rangers could "track" because people needed a certain zone-wide roaming mobs for their quest or loot?  That was deemed too much of an inconvenience by the thousands that played it.. OH Sure I as a druid loved it, and so did many others, but our voice was so minor, SOE ignored us..  Same with porting and instant travel..  When was the last game that promoted zone wide roaming mobs?  I cant' think of any since EQ..  .. oops.. With a slight exception for Blizzard that did have some mobs that roamed during the BC expansion..  It's why random timers on mobs went away too.. People in general like "PREDICTABILITY".. when playing their hobby game..

         Now as for the combat AI..  Blizzard attempted this briefly in the Cataclysm expansion and MILLIONS of players screamed that it was too hard..  Mobs would ignore taunt, or couldn't be CC'd.. etc etc.. and the player base said NO THANKS.. So what did Blizzard do.. NERFED the combat back to the predictable level of play..  Now what EQN is doing is different coding, but the philosophy is still the same.. Will players tolerate unpredictable behavior by mobs?  I'm sure PvP type players will love it, but not sure most will..  Couple that with twitch combat, and you corner yourself in a very small market..  I suspect smaller then EQ2's player base.. 

    As I said before, you have to look at the whole picture with everything in context.

    I didn't play Cataclysm, but from my experience in Vanilla WoW, taunt/CC and other mechanics were core elements of combat. No clue how it would work if you removed taunt/CC or simply made things random or whatever. If the game is designed with the holy trinity in mind and all of a sudden your throw non-trinity content in, it doesn't work.

    Much like GW2, they removed the trinity, yet people still expected it and were upset that PVE didn't work that way, even though it wasn't supposed to. Didn't help that the AI was crap as well. Where I hope EQN will have not only much better AI, but a combat system that works with it.

    I agree that players like predictability and I don't see why EQN won't have it. They've said that mobs can be the same classes as players along with the same skills. In this case, if I run up against an Orc that is clearly a Warrior from his armor, weapon, stance, etc I should have a general idea of what it can do. If all of a sudden the "Warrior" Orc shoots fireballs out of his eyes, I will be a bit confused. Doesn't mean the mob has to only have 1 attack or be static in its response, but also doesn't have to be totally random or chaotic.

    For me everything should be on a scale. Where a Warrior Orc in Tier 1 might have access to 12 skills but only uses 4 in most situations. Where as Tier 5 version would use all 12 in conjunction with other Orcs of various classes working together much like players within the boundaries of what AI can do.

    There should still be a general knowledge of what the enemy can do, but how they do it can vary. Predictability within some range of "random" content.

    Same goes for mobs moving about the world and "doing what they want." There are limitations pre-set by the devs one what mobs/NPCs want/need. An Orc isn't likely to become the Elf King. Or Halflings to set up their homes in Lavastorm. Doesn't have to be one extreme or another. Seems they simply want the world to have some flexibility and dynamic layers that go beyond what we've seen. If a Dragon flies around 1-shotting every player and burning down every city, I'd say they screwed up. There has to be limits to how far it will all go. If you want to grind on Kobolds, I'm betting it won't be too hard to track some down. Might not be as easy as 1) Visit database side 2) Search for Kobold 3) Get exact loc. But it shouldn't be too difficult either.

    As seen with how games have and continue to change over the years, what was popular in one game or at one point, doesn't stay true forever. Already EQN is throwing many well loved and played features out the window (tab-target, holy trinity, one class per character, vertical power stacking, quest hubs, etc). They are taking a huge risk in going way outside what is popular if we simply look at the games out and how many players they have. Doesn't mean that those same players won't like something new and different or that millions of people that haven't ever tried a mmorpg won't give it a go either (people love to say EQN is for console/twitch folks).

    I think EQN is a gamble. Could break even, lose it all, or hit it big. No way to know until it actually happens. I'm sure there were plenty of EQ fans that said they'd never play WoW. Ex-WoW fans that said they'd never try Wildstar. But here we are with games that are being played by all types.

    I honestly think that unless SOE really screws up somehow, EQN simply being the new kid on the block is enough for it to be a success. Look at the market and genre. There really isn't anything else out or coming in the fantasy AAA market that appeals to a wide audience. We have lots of indie games that will do okay in their small markets, Eastern mmos like Bless/Black Desert that will eventually reel in a few, but nothing that really has too much potential. Beyond whatever Blizzard is surely cooking up, SOE is probably the only company that can hit a home run. Could go foul, but I really hope not. Not just for me, but for the genre. We need companies to take chances and think different or we'll keep getting the same game remade over and over or simply fewer games. I'm at least giving SOE the benefit of the doubt.

  • MarkusrindMarkusrind Member Posts: 359
    Originally posted by Allein
    If you want to grind on Kobolds, I'm betting it won't be too hard to track some down. Might not be as easy as 1) Visit database side 2) Search for Kobold 3) Get exact loc. But it shouldn't be too difficult either.

     

    The Rhosong seems to be the tool for this. It tells you where things are going on and is tailored to your history. So if you are a Kobold killer it will tell you where to look for Kobolds. If you are 'good' it will tell you where 'Evil' is. If you enjoy big battles it will tell you where the big battles are. At least that was the general discussion had with the dev responsible for the Rhosong.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

    Originally posted by Allein

    Originally posted by Rydeson

         (snip)

    I honestly think that unless SOE really screws up somehow, EQN simply being the new kid on the block is enough for it to be a success. Look at the market and genre. There really isn't anything else out or coming in the fantasy AAA market that appeals to a wide audience. We have lots of indie games that will do okay in their small markets, Eastern mmos like Bless/Black Desert that will eventually reel in a few, but nothing that really has too much potential. Beyond whatever Blizzard is surely cooking up, SOE is probably the only company that can hit a home run. Could go foul, but I really hope not. Not just for me, but for the genre. We need companies to take chances and think different or we'll keep getting the same game remade over and over or simply fewer games. I'm at least giving SOE the benefit of the doubt.

         Good luck on that Home Run..  SOE hasn't hit for extra bases since SWG when it hit a double, but was thrown out trying for third.. Grrrrrrrr..  Personally I think one of SOE's major problems like many companies is they do not create and develop games, they make a product that earns them $$$$$$..  Big difference..  I think SOE had a chance to remake EQ into a great sequel using today's technology, leap frogging past WoW in forms of entertainment (not sub numbers) but chose to go after a different genre of players..

    Originally posted by Markusrind

    Originally posted by Allein
    If you want to grind on Kobolds, I'm betting it won't be too hard to track some down. Might not be as easy as 1) Visit database side 2) Search for Kobold 3) Get exact loc. But it shouldn't be too difficult either.

     

    The Rhosong seems to be the tool for this. It tells you where things are going on and is tailored to your history. So if you are a Kobold killer it will tell you where to look for Kobolds. If you are 'good' it will tell you where 'Evil' is. If you enjoy big battles it will tell you where the big battles are. At least that was the general discussion had with the dev responsible for the Rhosong.

    And let me ask you..  What is the difference between me KNOWING in advance that I play on going to Orc Camp 1 to find my action, or waiting to log on, check with Rhosong so it tells me where the action is? ..... ABSOLUTELY nothing, other then timing..  Having cheat sheets (Rhosong) sorta defeats the whole purpose of a changing world with emergent AI, isn't it?

     

  • MarkusrindMarkusrind Member Posts: 359
    Originally posted by Rydeson

     

    And let me ask you..  What is the difference between me KNOWING in advance that I play on going to Orc Camp 1 to find my action, or waiting to log on, check with Rhosong so it tells me where the action is? ..... ABSOLUTELY nothing, other then timing..  Having cheat sheets (Rhosong) sorta defeats the whole purpose of a changing world with emergent AI, isn't it?

     

    Mechanically speaking sure, you can go to a pre-defined place and find what you are looking for or have to follow the evolving story around you and call them the same but they are really not.

    I think of it like going out for food. You can either go to the local McDonalds and get a burger or wander around to find a nice burger joint. Both options will give you a burger to eat but one is far more enjoyable then the other.

    Not sure if you have any knowledge about the Rhosong but it sounds like you don't (apologies if that is inaccurate but you are often way off in your assumptions about it). It is more like a newspaper with reports on what is going on in the world. It won't really say go here to kill Kobolds but is more likely to say go here, things are happening that may be of interest to you.

    I still can't shake the feeling that you are stuck in a mind-set where you just cannot work out in your head how things can be done differently and so doubt that anyone else can. You have to remember, these guys making the game are very switched on and understand what they are doing so just because you don't understand it doesn't mean that they and others can't.

    I have been gaming for 32 years and the amount of amazing things these guys still come year after year is a wonder. I honestly cannot remember the last time something came out that truly could be as game changing as what is proposed here. Sure it could go wrong but on balance of information, interaction and ongoing proof of their ability to deliver in Landmark I have every confidence EQN will be the game they promise.

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,662
    Originally posted by Gintoh
    What will the PVP be like? Any word on EVE esque territory control or player looting?

    Anything at this point is pure speculation - SoE hasn't reveled anything concrete when it comes to PvP and EQNext.

    Anybody posting anything specific about EQNext and PvP - personal hopes and dreams - it has nothing to do with reality.

     

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Markusrind
    Originally posted by Rydeson

     

    And let me ask you..  What is the difference between me KNOWING in advance that I play on going to Orc Camp 1 to find my action, or waiting to log on, check with Rhosong so it tells me where the action is? ..... ABSOLUTELY nothing, other then timing..  Having cheat sheets (Rhosong) sorta defeats the whole purpose of a changing world with emergent AI, isn't it?

     

    Mechanically speaking sure, you can go to a pre-defined place and find what you are looking for or have to follow the evolving story around you and call them the same but they are really not.

    I think of it like going out for food. You can either go to the local McDonalds and get a burger or wander around to find a nice burger joint. Both options will give you a burger to eat but one is far more enjoyable then the other. And that is your option, and sometimes that is fun.. However, most of the time people do not want to go searching for what they want, hence RESTAURANTS.. instead of wandering food trucks.. 

    Not sure if you have any knowledge about the Rhosong but it sounds like you don't (apologies if that is inaccurate but you are often way off in your assumptions about it). It is more like a newspaper with reports on what is going on in the world. It won't really say go here to kill Kobolds but is more likely to say go here, things are happening that may be of interest to you. As I indicated.. Most people will probably NOT like the idea of reading a newspaper to find out what is going on in the game world.. This is why most gamers demanded "skip" options reading quest chat, and logs..  It's cute the first time, or once in awhile.. but if I have to do that every time I log on to figure out where to travel to.. Zzzzz no thanks.. 

    I still can't shake the feeling that you are stuck in a mind-set where you just cannot work out in your head how things can be done differently and so doubt that anyone else can. You have to remember, these guys making the game are very switched on and understand what they are doing so just because you don't understand it doesn't mean that they and others can't. I perfectly understand their intent, that doesn't change my opinion that it may not be as successful as they want or think..  History has shown players have little tolerance to play a guessing game.. I doubt times have changed all that much..

    I have been gaming for 32 years and the amount of amazing things these guys still come year after year is a wonder. I honestly cannot remember the last time something came out that truly could be as game changing as what is proposed here. Sure it could go wrong but on balance of information, interaction and ongoing proof of their ability to deliver in Landmark I have every confidence EQN will be the game they promise.

    Good luck in your belief.. and I'll just stand back and watch and HOLD judgement AFTER I see a finished product..   I have been a SOE / Verant customer since 1999, so I've experience their history first hand.. 

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Gintoh
    What will the PVP be like? Any word on EVE esque territory control or player looting?

    Anything at this point is pure speculation - SoE hasn't reveled anything concrete when it comes to PvP and EQNext.

    Anybody posting anything specific about EQNext and PvP - personal hopes and dreams - it has nothing to do with reality.

     

    So true.. so true..  SOE has deliberately been slow and vague on what details they publish..  They love to toss out a blurry nugget knowing that fans will run crazy with expectations and hype..  Perfect marketing.. lol

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Gintoh
    What will the PVP be like? Any word on EVE esque territory control or player looting?

    Anything at this point is pure speculation - SoE hasn't reveled anything concrete when it comes to PvP and EQNext.

    Anybody posting anything specific about EQNext and PvP - personal hopes and dreams - it has nothing to do with reality.

    So true.. so true..  SOE has deliberately been slow and vague on what details they publish..  They love to toss out a blurry nugget knowing that fans will run crazy with expectations and hype..  Perfect marketing.. lol

     

    Indeed and it passes the time as people discuss what may be. The burning is done from both ends of the candle however, speculations go both ways. The best we can hope is that those that do comment, other than simple comedy relief, have done their part in informing themselves. That way we're all having the same conversation, based on what we have heard, even if the end result cannot be known until seen/played.

  • Dagon13Dagon13 Member UncommonPosts: 564
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Markusrind
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Allein
    The AI is what I'm after and if it doesn't turn out so well, EQN will just be another game for me.

         And that is the trick to all this working, or not working, but you are catching on to my issue and concern..  As I said long ago in one of my many threads is that the AI  will be dumbed down to what the player base demands..  Storybrick AI is really nothing new..

    If you seriously believe Storybricks AI is nothing new then you have no idea where game AI currently stands and just how revolutionary their system is. Go look it up.  A more complex dynamic AI is nothing new.. Not sure why you are being so argumentative about it..

    Many companies have toyed with the idea of making AI more difficult and complex, but have always backed off when it showed it was causing issues with the player base..  Blizzard ran into that years ago when they played AI in combat to be more engaging and dynamic and the player base SCREAMED it was too difficult, and Blizzard did what everyone has done in the past and that was back down and make the combat AI easier..  It is all about the numbers and $$$$..   If Storybricks ends up being too unpredictable and complex, to the point it makes players uncomfortable, guess what?   NERF .. 

    You mean if the AI of the mobs becomes as unpredictable as say...other players... Other companies have already tried it and players hated it.. That is exactly part of the issue.. If the NPC become unpredictable to a point that players have to spend time to FIND content all the time.. It WILL become a game breaking issue for many..  Not sure why you are arguing with me on this.. I have NO firm position yes or no.. I'm just stating problems that will occur if not watched.

         Even myself, i will only tolerate so much emergent AI before I call next..  I grew playing an EQ Druid, so I know all about traveling and exploring the world, and taking on mobs wherever I find them.. HOWEVER, I do enjoy certain fixed location where I know I can kite and find action..  Using EQ as an example.. If I farmed the Giants in Everfrost too much that they went away.. grrrrrrrrrr ..

    Then you will have to hunt them down in another place. Brain teaser huh! Again, as above.. MOST gamers will not tolerate spending time searching for the unpredictable and unknown.. OH, it's cute the first time of discovery, but if you have to do it too often, it will be a game breaker..  MOST games prefer consistancy in their entertainment to a point.. 

    THIS GAME IS NOT GOING TO PLAY LIKE A MINDLESS GRIND THAT YOU SEEM SO KEEN TO FIGHT FOR.  I have made NO claim to such.. so don't put words in my mouth that were never said..

    or another location I liked before I quit was Skyfire.. If I farmed the wyvern and wurms too much they kept on moving to a new location that I had to go look for.. Again, GRRRR and I was seriously thinking of quitting faster then I did..  Most players enjoy predictable words to a degree, and if you make the world TOO RANDOM, too quickly and players have to go searching for something to do, many will just quit and move on.. 

        That is what I mean when I say if the player base finds that Storybricks is too random and unpredictable, they'll demand changes or quit, and do you really SOE will tell the LARGEST part of the player base, "Play our way or leave"??  Time will tell and we'll see who wins playing chicken.. I predict SOE will be the one to back down..  But who knows, the AI can turn out to be so minor that it's almost unseen/unnoticed.. 

    It is obvious this game is not what you want, and will not be what you want. It is not going to be a static spawn, boring grind game where combat is faceroll and the world is unchanging. It is a NEW way of bringing the fun and excitement back to MMO's and if that is not what you want then stick to playing the games that have been around for the last 15 years and don't give this game a second thought.

    I never made claims to what you are arguing about..  You are borderline on crossing forum rules... Lets stay on topic of issues and NOT make it personal.. 

    So because one approach failed we should stop working towards a better future?  Way to invalidate all of the progress made by mankind during our short time on earth.

    It's true that we don't know yet if Storybricks will produce effective results, but dismissing it when you don't know the details is just ignorant.

  • InfantryonlineInfantryonline Member Posts: 113
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Gintoh
    What will the PVP be like? Any word on EVE esque territory control or player looting?

    Anything at this point is pure speculation - SoE hasn't reveled anything concrete when it comes to PvP and EQNext.

    Anybody posting anything specific about EQNext and PvP - personal hopes and dreams - it has nothing to do with reality.

     

    So true.. so true..  SOE has deliberately been slow and vague on what details they publish..  They love to toss out a blurry nugget knowing that fans will run crazy with expectations and hype..  Perfect marketing.. lol

    They won't release anything that isn't up to their standards of how their game wants to be percieved. Thats why everything they showed so far though how little has been mind blowing. 

    ...That's essentially what being smug is. Acting like you're so blatantly right that even the thought of someone disagreeing with you is appallingly stupid and comical. you have a good chance of bullying them into believing you.

  • MarkusrindMarkusrind Member Posts: 359
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Markusrind
    Originally posted by Rydeson

     

    And let me ask you..  What is the difference between me KNOWING in advance that I play on going to Orc Camp 1 to find my action, or waiting to log on, check with Rhosong so it tells me where the action is? ..... ABSOLUTELY nothing, other then timing..  Having cheat sheets (Rhosong) sorta defeats the whole purpose of a changing world with emergent AI, isn't it?

     

    Mechanically speaking sure, you can go to a pre-defined place and find what you are looking for or have to follow the evolving story around you and call them the same but they are really not.

    I think of it like going out for food. You can either go to the local McDonalds and get a burger or wander around to find a nice burger joint. Both options will give you a burger to eat but one is far more enjoyable then the other. And that is your option, and sometimes that is fun.. However, most of the time people do not want to go searching for what they want, hence RESTAURANTS.. instead of wandering food trucks.. 

    Not sure if you have any knowledge about the Rhosong but it sounds like you don't (apologies if that is inaccurate but you are often way off in your assumptions about it). It is more like a newspaper with reports on what is going on in the world. It won't really say go here to kill Kobolds but is more likely to say go here, things are happening that may be of interest to you. As I indicated.. Most people will probably NOT like the idea of reading a newspaper to find out what is going on in the game world.. This is why most gamers demanded "skip" options reading quest chat, and logs..  It's cute the first time, or once in awhile.. but if I have to do that every time I log on to figure out where to travel to.. Zzzzz no thanks.. 

    I still can't shake the feeling that you are stuck in a mind-set where you just cannot work out in your head how things can be done differently and so doubt that anyone else can. You have to remember, these guys making the game are very switched on and understand what they are doing so just because you don't understand it doesn't mean that they and others can't. I perfectly understand their intent, that doesn't change my opinion that it may not be as successful as they want or think..  History has shown players have little tolerance to play a guessing game.. I doubt times have changed all that much..

    I have been gaming for 32 years and the amount of amazing things these guys still come year after year is a wonder. I honestly cannot remember the last time something came out that truly could be as game changing as what is proposed here. Sure it could go wrong but on balance of information, interaction and ongoing proof of their ability to deliver in Landmark I have every confidence EQN will be the game they promise.

    Good luck in your belief.. and I'll just stand back and watch and HOLD judgement AFTER I see a finished product..   I have been a SOE / Verant customer since 1999, so I've experience their history first hand.. 

    Al I can say about how you seem to dislike what has been done so far and what is scheduled for release is that this game will probably not be for you or others like you that don't want to experience a living, breathing, interactive world where your actions can and do change the world. The types of games you seem to think  a lot of people like are still out there and still being played.

    Here is a thought, perhaps this game wasn't designed for people like you which is why you always seem to be off the mark in understanding it's designs and intents. Perhaps this game is just not right for you and you should invest your time with another title where they are talking about static mobs, static world and AI that doesn't offer too much challenge. Perhaps you will find the game of your dreams. But it sure doesn't sound like this game is what you are looking for.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
         True Mark.. In it's current state the game is NOT for me.. However, I have yet to find a company that doesn't buckle to pressure, when it comes to the bottom line..  SOE is no exception to changing their games to get MORE DOLLARS.. If that dollar they want is in my pocket along with many others..The game will change..  Who knows, maybe EQN can have their own version of NGE..
  • MarkusrindMarkusrind Member Posts: 359
    Originally posted by Rydeson
         True Mark.. In it's current state the game is NOT for me.. However, I have yet to find a company that doesn't buckle to pressure, when it comes to the bottom line..  SOE is no exception to changing their games to get MORE DOLLARS.. If that dollar they want is in my pocket along with many others..The game will change..  Who knows, maybe EQN can have their own version of NGE..

    Player demand fucking things up, like you seem to want to advocate, is unlikely to happen again with SOE. They learnt their lesson and will not bow down to idiots asking to change them from their core game design. That is why their opening statement was to, very publically, state what those core game deign pillars were.

    They WANT what they are designing BECAUSE guys like you are asking for it....again. New game, new vision, new players. As I said, if you want to play the same game you have been playing for the last 15 years they are all still there, go play them. If not then be respectful to the designers who have the balls to put this new vision out into the public domain admitting very vocally that they expect opinions like yours to be expressed. They expect people to not get it, to doubt it, to ridicule it. The game design is that different from what people think it is going to be and can even imagine what it can be.

    Fly? What a ridiculous notion!

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

         And good luck with that..  As I will continue to voice my opinions of what I like or don't like about many games.. It's the American way.  I like burgers myself, sometimes beef dogs, and sausage, but I hate cheap pork dogs.. It isn't a matter of "not getting it".. I just don't like it..  Just that simple..  If the devs want my input, I'm giving it..  or is that only supporters and fans are allowed to voice themselves?   How is a chef to know his menu is good or bad if people don't say anything..  Wait until after he goes out of business.?? 

         Lets be honest here tho.. SOE has a long history of not listening to their players..  then wonder why they are not the big cheese anymore..  EQ is nothing like it's former self .. EQ2 was launched against player advice then had to almost reboot to save itself.. SWG was closed because they wouldn't listen to the players.. Vanguard is unspeakable.. LOL   Matrix?  Planetside 1/2 are not talk pieces.. and the other numerous games closed in recent years.. 

         I have seen HOURS and HOURS of game play via YouTube and nothing is impressing me so far..  So if SOE has a rabbit to pull out of the hat, they may want to do it..

    BTW. My real eyes are on Elite Dangerous.. I hope it plays much like the original from the 1980's.. If it does, that will be my new obsession in life.. LOL Ha Ha Ha..  well, besides golfing..   And this winter is going to suck with no new NCAA college football to play on the PS3 or Tiger Woods golf.. 

  • MarkusrindMarkusrind Member Posts: 359
    Originally posted by Rydeson

     

         I have seen HOURS and HOURS of game play via YouTube and nothing is impressing me so far..  So if SOE has a rabbit to pull out of the hat, they may want to do it..

     

    So have you played Landmark at all? Are you basing your entire opinion on the above statement about Youtube and your previous comment about basing your argument on something Storybricks released last year?

    Because while I will admit we are both talking about what we think SOE are doing with the game I am not basing my opinions on just yourtube video's and year old interviews. Probably the reason I find your point so inaccurate.

    I also have hands on experience playing Landmark since closed Alpha, have had 1st hand conversation with the devs and have had deep conversations with a friend who has interviewed the devs at SOE and Storybricks (behind closed doors and with reveales about the development that even he will not share and he struggles to hide his excitement).

    So feel free to continue offering your point of view but I hope anyone reading will understand your position of experience and mine and understand what we are both basing are assumptions on.

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,094

    Originally posted by Rydeson

         Good luck on that Home Run..  SOE hasn't hit for extra bases since SWG when it hit a double, but was thrown out trying for third.. Grrrrrrrr..  Personally I think one of SOE's major problems like many companies is they do not create and develop games, they make a product that earns them $$$$$$..  Big difference..  I think SOE had a chance to remake EQ into a great sequel using today's technology, leap frogging past WoW in forms of entertainment (not sub numbers) but chose to go after a different genre of players..

    PS2, DCUO, Landmark, and what has been seen of H1Z1 all appeal to particular groups. None really has a long list of flaws. You either like them or you don't. I don't see EQN being much different. If you like XYZ and it does XYZ well, it will probably be fun. If you don't like XYZ, not worth your time. Instead of I wish XYZ were like this game or that.

    You are right. They are a company out for cash. Just like them all. Huge difference is unlike say SWTOR or ESO, there is no large cash buy in. Appears they have enough confidence to spend millions on the idea of "if you build it, they will come." Not to say the cash shop won't drain the wallet, but to do so, the game has to be enjoyable on the free basis to begin with. Several games I've played over the years would of been uninstalled after an hour of playing them. Instead I dropped cash down and felt obligated to at least stick it out a while, just to leave.

    Do I think any company plans for a crap experience? No, but removing the cash wall (which is all they are after right?) is a pretty significant deal.

    Yes they could and did make at least two versions of EQ3. Pretty sure it would of had minor success and been another game on the list. Just as people left when competition hit the scene back in the early 00s, as great as EQ was, it wasn't the be all mmo for everyone. It was popular in large part due to the choices at the time and the gamers playing the games. Today's market is no reflection of that time.

    If you decide to label yourself and put yourself in a box as X type of gamer, that's on you. I loved early EQ, just like I enjoyed early WoW, DAoC, GW2, Counter Strike, TF2, Smite, Fury, etc. I'm a gamer, not a X fan or type. SOE is going after "different genre of players" and would be stupid not to with the millions out there. There is no reason at all that people that like EQ 99 style can't like EQN. It is a personal choice. I enjoy tab and action combat, I enjoy small and huge skill bars, themepark/sandbox, yadda yadda. I adapt and am lucky enough to enjoy a variety.

    It isn't SOE's fault that some are picky. They are a business and have to go where the market takes them. If there was 50 million EQ fans standing at their gates, I'm assuming they would make EQ 2014. Not reality though.

    Originally posted by Rydeson
         True Mark.. In it's current state the game is NOT for me.. However, I have yet to find a company that doesn't buckle to pressure, when it comes to the bottom line..  SOE is no exception to changing their games to get MORE DOLLARS.. If that dollar they want is in my pocket along with many others..The game will change..  Who knows, maybe EQN can have their own version of NGE..

    Very true. As long as you accept this, nothing should be too surprising. When a game all of a sudden takes a turn, I don't storm SOE's office. I simply speak with my wallet and move on. Nothing that we can do about it. The machine can't be stopped. Until EQN NGE hits, it doesn't exist to me. I don't really worry about things with no basis.

    Originally posted by Rydeson

         And good luck with that..  As I will continue to voice my opinions of what I like or don't like about many games.. It's the American way.  I like burgers myself, sometimes beef dogs, and sausage, but I hate cheap pork dogs.. It isn't a matter of "not getting it".. I just don't like it..  Just that simple..  If the devs want my input, I'm giving it..  or is that only supporters and fans are allowed to voice themselves?   How is a chef to know his menu is good or bad if people don't say anything..  Wait until after he goes out of business.?? 

    Firstly, don't think the devs venture in here much. Reddit, Twitter, official forums probably better channels. Second, there is nothing wrong with saying what you dislike, but when you want the literal opposite of what they are doing, it is kind of pointless. Like those that still complain about the art style. They aren't going to redo it for a few complaining on a forum. Somethings you either accept or waste your time complaining about I guess.

         Lets be honest here tho.. SOE has a long history of not listening to their players..  then wonder why they are not the big cheese anymore..  EQ is nothing like it's former self .. EQ2 was launched against player advice then had to almost reboot to save itself.. SWG was closed because they wouldn't listen to the players.. Vanguard is unspeakable.. LOL   Matrix?  Planetside 1/2 are not talk pieces.. and the other numerous games closed in recent years.. 

    This can be said for every mmo company. If they all listened to everyone single fan, they would be perfect right? More like, companies don't listen to some of us specifically and we get mad and leave. I stopped playing WoW after TBC, seems millions upon millions missed my Jerry Maguire speech. Who should Blizzard have listened to? Me or millions enjoying their game?

    EQ was a hit and then not so much for many reasons. Again it is about the context. No one single action changed everything. EQ could of been exactly the same to this day, pretty sure WoW would of still made its impact. We'll never know though. I learned a long time ago, even though I think I'm always right, know what's best, and people are dumb for not following me, I really don't matter. Might makes right in gaming, plus the almighty dollar. No one can predict the future. If you can, please give me the lottery numbers. 

         I have seen HOURS and HOURS of game play via YouTube and nothing is impressing me so far..  So if SOE has a rabbit to pull out of the hat, they may want to do it..

    Hours of EQN or Landmark? They are totally different games based on the same foundation. Landmark in its current state is also only a portion of its potential. Do I spend hours and hours in Landmark? No, I'm not a builder or the demographic they are after. Once it is fleshed out and those people have had time to create, I will venture back in and become another demo that SOE is after. Combat is the hot topic and while I'm assuming EQN will resemble it, they have already said that the bunny hoping and chaotic mess will be toned down and made more manageable for EQN.

    As has been pointed out, I think you simply don't like what EQN is and because of your history with the franchise have an interest. If the game was called anything else, I'm guessing you wouldn't even bother. Could be wrong, but that's the impression I get from you and others. Still holding out that SOE will bring some of that EQ magic back. While it is subjective, I think they already have and will. Simply won't be done in the exact same ways. I actually see more UO/SWG (two I didn't play as much as I wish) and a bit of the EQ wonder tossed in. Are the mechanics 100% like 1999, nope, but simply hearing some of the new theme music and seeing old names has me full of 15+ year old memories again. Toss that in with tech and different ways to play these games and I'm hoping for a great time. Then NGE hits and I cry myself to sleep.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Markusrind
    Originally posted by Rydeson

     

         I have seen HOURS and HOURS of game play via YouTube and nothing is impressing me so far..  So if SOE has a rabbit to pull out of the hat, they may want to do it..

     

    So have you played Landmark at all? Are you basing your entire opinion on the above statement about Youtube and your previous comment about basing your argument on something Storybricks released last year?

    Because while I will admit we are both talking about what we think SOE are doing with the game I am not basing my opinions on just yourtube video's and year old interviews. Probably the reason I find your point so inaccurate.

    I also have hands on experience playing Landmark since closed Alpha, have had 1st hand conversation with the devs and have had deep conversations with a friend who has interviewed the devs at SOE and Storybricks (behind closed doors and with reveales about the development that even he will not share and he struggles to hide his excitement).

    So feel free to continue offering your point of view but I hope anyone reading will understand your position of experience and mine and understand what we are both basing are assumptions on.

         Both last year and current videos..  I saw ALL of the SOE Live telecast recorded and the "NEW" PvP in Landmark and tome it was pure crap..  The PvP that was recently recorded was so bad to my eyes, I would rather play Call of Duty while sitting on a nail bed, then to partake in what Landmark showed as combat..  I'm no fan of ZERGfest combat either, but GW2 is far more enjoyable then what I"m seeing so far..  I'm confident that when it comes down to pure numbers, there are more people like me that were NOT impressed with Landmark PvP video, then those that support it.. 

         Now as for Landmark.. Other then the PvP combat, all the game is running around digging holes and building blocks..  Sorry, that is NOT MY CUP OF TEA..  I'd rather play Farmville then go around digging countless holes.. Speaking of Holes, that was a great book/movie.. LOL  We all have friends of a friend that knew a friend related to a neighbor who's friend told me something.. It's a good thing that the game is going live as "FREE TO PLAY"..

  • InfantryonlineInfantryonline Member Posts: 113
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Markusrind
    Originally posted by Rydeson

     

         I have seen HOURS and HOURS of game play via YouTube and nothing is impressing me so far..  So if SOE has a rabbit to pull out of the hat, they may want to do it..

     

    So have you played Landmark at all? Are you basing your entire opinion on the above statement about Youtube and your previous comment about basing your argument on something Storybricks released last year?

    Because while I will admit we are both talking about what we think SOE are doing with the game I am not basing my opinions on just yourtube video's and year old interviews. Probably the reason I find your point so inaccurate.

    I also have hands on experience playing Landmark since closed Alpha, have had 1st hand conversation with the devs and have had deep conversations with a friend who has interviewed the devs at SOE and Storybricks (behind closed doors and with reveales about the development that even he will not share and he struggles to hide his excitement).

    So feel free to continue offering your point of view but I hope anyone reading will understand your position of experience and mine and understand what we are both basing are assumptions on.

         Both last year and current videos..  I saw ALL of the SOE Live telecast recorded and the "NEW" PvP in Landmark and tome it was pure crap..  The PvP that was recently recorded was so bad to my eyes, I would rather play Call of Duty while sitting on a nail bed, then to partake in what Landmark showed as combat..  I'm no fan of ZERGfest combat either, but GW2 is far more enjoyable then what I"m seeing so far..  I'm confident that when it comes down to pure numbers, there are more people like me that were NOT impressed with Landmark PvP video, then those that support it.. 

         Now as for Landmark.. Other then the PvP combat, all the game is running around digging holes and building blocks..  Sorry, that is NOT MY CUP OF TEA..  I'd rather play Farmville then go around digging countless holes.. Speaking of Holes, that was a great book/movie.. LOL  We all have friends of a friend that knew a friend related to a neighbor who's friend told me something.. It's a good thing that the game is going live as "FREE TO PLAY"..

    The whole point of his post was that he played Landmark since Alpha and that you are basing your pov on a youtube video and you come back and say exactly what he said you are doing and you are totally oblivious to it. Well im glad you liked the videos what do you think about the 10000s of hours of non scripted AI they put in place? How far do you think the identity of a server can go with a 10000s of players affecting a world the size of Vermont? What do you think about npcs acting on their own and conquering objectives and changing the world permantly without player interaction? You think they nailed multiclassing? 

     

     

    *Edit Yeah you probably don't know as much as us. I have all the connections to follow this game correctly. I mean, im a huge nerd for this game

    ...That's essentially what being smug is. Acting like you're so blatantly right that even the thought of someone disagreeing with you is appallingly stupid and comical. you have a good chance of bullying them into believing you.

  • ButeoRegalisButeoRegalis Member UncommonPosts: 594
    Originally posted by Gintoh
    ... player looting?

    Why do I always read that as "can I gank n00bs and steal all their lootz?"

     

    image

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,094
    Originally posted by Rydeson

         Both last year and current videos..  I saw ALL of the SOE Live telecast recorded and the "NEW" PvP in Landmark and tome it was pure crap..  The PvP that was recently recorded was so bad to my eyes, I would rather play Call of Duty while sitting on a nail bed, then to partake in what Landmark showed as combat..  I'm no fan of ZERGfest combat either, but GW2 is far more enjoyable then what I"m seeing so far..  I'm confident that when it comes down to pure numbers, there are more people like me that were NOT impressed with Landmark PvP video, then those that support it.. 

    Based upon? Don't forget that there are people in Landmark right this moment doing exactly what you dislike. Just like millions of others playing games you and I dislike. From my travels around Reddit, here, and the official forums, I see quite a lot of positive feedback from people that might actually play these games. Those that are showing the most critical view probably had and still have zero intention on playing either.

    I found EQ's PVP to be very lacking, which wasn't a surprise as it was a PVE game. Which caused me to jump ship to DAoC. You may not care for Landmark's and in turn EQN's PVP, but I'm not sure how you could prefer EQ's style either. As a PVPer, I'm actually hoping PVP plays little to no part in the core game of EQN.

         Now as for Landmark.. Other then the PvP combat, all the game is running around digging holes and building blocks..  Sorry, that is NOT MY CUP OF TEA..  I'd rather play Farmville then go around digging countless holes.. Speaking of Holes, that was a great book/movie.. LOL  We all have friends of a friend that knew a friend related to a neighbor who's friend told me something.. It's a good thing that the game is going live as "FREE TO PLAY"..

    You're right about F2P. As I said above, it shows some degree of confidence on SOE's part. You and I and everyone else has the chance to give it a go without risking anything beyond having a bad time. If the perks are decent, I might pay for the SOE pass/sub, but it is nice knowing I don't "have" to.

    If neither Landmark or EQN are your cup of tea, why are you wasting time talking about any of this? Honestly still don't understand it. I've never disliked something to the point I have to go out and tell the world about how I feel on a continued basis. I get all those that just pop in "Disney graphics, fail" or whatever, but you seem to put a lot more thought into the whole thing for what reason I'm not sure.

    Do you intend to try EQN at some point? Just curious what exactly you are getting out of discussing a game you seem to really dislike at this stage of development.

     

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,617
    Originally posted by Allein

    They seem open to different server types, but I highly doubt we'll see EVE in Norrath.

    Player looting if part of the core game would instantly alienate a huge population of gamers.

    Doubt we'd see land control on EVE's scale where a guild or whatever would control Lavastorm or whatever. Since there is lore/story and stuff going on, would be pretty hard to have it working if some random guild controlled everything. Could see it working in non-story "zones" where people are free to build and destroy stuff without interfering with the core game though.

    Still yet to be seen how PVP will or won't impact EQN. Could be meaningless to the overall game or optional or whatever random way they go about it.

    You summed it up best when you mention Next will have Story and Lore,Eve is an extremely simple game design,no reason to play Eve  unless you ONLY want to pvp.

    I know there is always  a large portion of gamer's that like to superficial  mmorpg's into nothing more than a raiding game but i THINK most liek a complete game full of that story and Lore and exploration and grouping and crafting and housing and mounts and pets ect ect,ya a complete game.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

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