Originally posted by SEANMCADOP...if what you say is true then what is the point in calling the game EverQuest other than to trick people?
They desired to set their world in the same universe with a connection to their established lore. They WANT their game to take place in Norrath.
no they dont. They know just like most of us know that the majority of players of EQ couldnt tell you anything about Norrath because they dont give a shit about that.
You think the developers are using the name because they have a hard on for the lore?
pleeeasssseeeee....
In all fairness I think you both may have a point. Only one which I can confirm. That is there will be a connection with the lore. Other than that, I cannot make a judgment about which would be more accurate. I cannot say but it wouldn't surprise me if SOE had motives other than lore for naming EQN. That's not to assume the worst as Sean has done, it could be they want to remind people that they have launched games that people liked in the past. However I don't think tricking EQ and EQII players serves their interest and they don't appear to be doing that at the moment. They have been clear it will be very different.
Originally posted by SEANMCADOP...if what you say is true then what is the point in calling the game EverQuest other than to trick people?
They desired to set their world in the same universe with a connection to their established lore. They WANT their game to take place in Norrath.
no they dont. They know just like most of us know that the majority of players of EQ couldnt tell you anything about Norrath because they dont give a shit about that.
You think the developers are using the name because they have a hard on for the lore?
pleeeasssseeeee....
In all fairness I think you both may have a point. Only one which I can confirm. That is there will be a connection with the lore. Other than that, I cannot make a judgment about which would be more accurate. I cannot say but it wouldn't surprise me if SOE had motives other than lore for naming EQN. That's not to assume the worst as Sean has done, it could be they want to remind people that they have launched games that people liked in the past. However I don't think tricking EQ and EQII players serves their interest and they don't appear to be doing that at the moment. They have been clear it will be very different.
the chances are extreemly high that the choice to make any game basically a new version of an older game is for marketing.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by SEANMCADOP...if what you say is true then what is the point in calling the game EverQuest other than to trick people?
They desired to set their world in the same universe with a connection to their established lore. They WANT their game to take place in Norrath.
no they dont. They know just like most of us know that the majority of players of EQ couldnt tell you anything about Norrath because they dont give a shit about that.
You think the developers are using the name because they have a hard on for the lore?
pleeeasssseeeee....
Every writer has a hard on for their lore. I say that as a writer. Your works are your children and, regardless of whether or not you are capable of presenting your imagined lore well, you maintain a love for it until the day you die or until you mature to a different taste and decide that your previously created universe does not hold up to your new expectations. You might be forced to "kill your darlings" to better your story for a particular editor or audience, but, no doubt, your darlings will remain important to you.
In every studio, there are employees who possess legitimate passion for what they are doing or are attempting to do. I would like to think (and hope) that there are passionate writers and artists among the EQN staff that will have their passion translated into the game. And, in general, the writers and artists of a staff are among its most passionate employees. Are there enough writers and artists on the EQN staff? Are they being paid enough? Are they being taken seriously? Do they know what they are doing? Those are the critical questions which will have a large impact on the Norrath of EQN.
Originally posted by SEANMCADOP...if what you say is true then what is the point in calling the game EverQuest other than to trick people?
They desired to set their world in the same universe with a connection to their established lore. They WANT their game to take place in Norrath.
no they dont. They know just like most of us know that the majority of players of EQ couldnt tell you anything about Norrath because they dont give a shit about that.
You think the developers are using the name because they have a hard on for the lore?
pleeeasssseeeee....
Every writer has a hard on for their lore. I say that as a writer. Your works are your children and, regardless of whether or not you are capable of presenting your imagined lore well, you maintain a love for it until the day you die or until you mature to a different taste and decide that your previously created universe does not hold up to your new expectations. You might be forced to "kill your darlings" to better your story for a particular editor or audience, but, no doubt, your darlings will remain important to you.
In every studio, there are employees who possess legitimate passion for what they are doing or are attempting to do. I would like to think (and hope) that there are passionate writers and artists among the EQN staff that will have their passion translated into the game. And, in general, the writers and artists of a staff are among its most passionate employees. Are there enough writers and artists on the EQN staff? Are they being paid enough? Are they being taken seriously? Do they know what they are doing? Those are the critical questions which will have a large impact on the Norrath of EQN.
yeah sounds like you dont know who runs the company or how the real business world works.
the writers are pretty low in the decision making on the name or even direction of a game title. I dont think writers have that much power even in a TV show let alone the lore in a video game
lol...too funny
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by SEANMCADOP...if what you say is true then what is the point in calling the game EverQuest other than to trick people?
They desired to set their world in the same universe with a connection to their established lore. They WANT their game to take place in Norrath.
no they dont. They know just like most of us know that the majority of players of EQ couldnt tell you anything about Norrath because they dont give a shit about that.
You think the developers are using the name because they have a hard on for the lore?
pleeeasssseeeee....
Every writer has a hard on for their lore. I say that as a writer. Your works are your children and, regardless of whether or not you are capable of presenting your imagined lore well, you maintain a love for it until the day you die or until you mature to a different taste and decide that your previously created universe does not hold up to your new expectations. You might be forced to "kill your darlings" to better your story for a particular editor or audience, but, no doubt, your darlings will remain important to you.
In every studio, there are employees who possess legitimate passion for what they are doing or are attempting to do. I would like to think (and hope) that there are passionate writers and artists among the EQN staff that will have their passion translated into the game. And, in general, the writers and artists of a staff are among its most passionate employees. Are there enough writers and artists on the EQN staff? Are they being paid enough? Are they being taken seriously? Do they know what they are doing? Those are the critical questions which will have a large impact on the Norrath of EQN.
yeah sounds like you dont know who runs the company or how the real business world works.
the writers are pretty low in the decision making on the name or even direction of a game title. I dont think writers have that much power even in a TV show let alone the lore in a video game
lol...too funny
Unfortunately, that often is the case.
But you dodged the point. The issue we were discussing was the world of Norrath as it applies to EQN and the desire of the developers to put their game in this world.
At no point did I mention mechanics. At no point did I mention business model. At no point did I mention design philosophies or even genre.
I mentioned only the universe, story, lore, and artwork - the things that actually define Norrath (and any other game world). These are the domains of the writer and the artist. These are the areas over which they are given sway. Whether or not EQN will fit into the world that they have put it on is up to the questions which I posed earlier. If there are enough writers and artists on the EQN staff, they will be able to convey their intentions into the game (through the programmers, of course). If they are being paid well enough, they can do so with the economic stability and motivation to devote their time to their work. If they are well-versed in the previous games, they can do so effectively - perhaps even improving upon the lore of the originals. And if they are being taken seriously, their decisions will properly influence the story, dialogue, artwork, and overall feel of the world.
No, these things do not determine the mechanics of the game. They rarely have a significant impact on the overall design philosophies or quality of a game. Why should they? They are rarely connected to gameplay mechanics in a meaningful way. They do, however, define a game as a legitimate successor to other games in its series.
Originally posted by SEANMCADOP...if what you say is true then what is the point in calling the game EverQuest other than to trick people?
They desired to set their world in the same universe with a connection to their established lore. They WANT their game to take place in Norrath.
no they dont. They know just like most of us know that the majority of players of EQ couldnt tell you anything about Norrath because they dont give a shit about that.
You think the developers are using the name because they have a hard on for the lore?
pleeeasssseeeee....
Every writer has a hard on for their lore. I say that as a writer. Your works are your children and, regardless of whether or not you are capable of presenting your imagined lore well, you maintain a love for it until the day you die or until you mature to a different taste and decide that your previously created universe does not hold up to your new expectations. You might be forced to "kill your darlings" to better your story for a particular editor or audience, but, no doubt, your darlings will remain important to you.
In every studio, there are employees who possess legitimate passion for what they are doing or are attempting to do. I would like to think (and hope) that there are passionate writers and artists among the EQN staff that will have their passion translated into the game. And, in general, the writers and artists of a staff are among its most passionate employees. Are there enough writers and artists on the EQN staff? Are they being paid enough? Are they being taken seriously? Do they know what they are doing? Those are the critical questions which will have a large impact on the Norrath of EQN.
yeah sounds like you dont know who runs the company or how the real business world works.
the writers are pretty low in the decision making on the name or even direction of a game title. I dont think writers have that much power even in a TV show let alone the lore in a video game
lol...too funny
Unfortunately, that often is the case.
But you dodged the point. The issue we were discussing was the world of Norrath as it applies to EQN and the desire of the developers to put their game in this world.
At no point did I mention mechanics. At no point did I mention business model. At no point did I mention design philosophies or even genre.
I mentioned only the universe, story, lore, and artwork - the things that actually define Norrath (and any other game world). These are the domains of the writer and the artist. These are the areas over which they are given sway. Whether or not EQN will fit into the world that they have put it on is up to the questions which I posed earlier. If there are enough writers and artists on the EQN staff, they will be able to convey their intentions into the game (through the programmers, of course). If they are being paid well enough, they can do so with the economic stability and motivation to devote their time to their work. If they are well-versed in the previous games, they can do so effectively - perhaps even improving upon the lore of the originals. And if they are being taken seriously, their decisions will properly influence the story, dialogue, artwork, and overall feel of the world.
No, these things do not determine the mechanics of the game. They rarely have a significant impact on the overall design philosophies or quality of a game. Why should they? They are rarely connected to gameplay mechanics in a meaningful way. They do, however, define a game as a legitimate successor to other games in its series.
you seem to assume that although they do not have to hold any allegiance to the game because of its title that they not only will hold allegiance to the lore but that they actually have sway in the matter in a video game. you are greatly mistaken
you seem to be suggesting that the developers hold not allegiance to the fan of the series but the story tellers do?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by SEANMCADOP...if what you say is true then what is the point in calling the game EverQuest other than to trick people?
They desired to set their world in the same universe with a connection to their established lore. They WANT their game to take place in Norrath.
no they dont. They know just like most of us know that the majority of players of EQ couldnt tell you anything about Norrath because they dont give a shit about that.
You think the developers are using the name because they have a hard on for the lore?
pleeeasssseeeee....
Every writer has a hard on for their lore. I say that as a writer. Your works are your children and, regardless of whether or not you are capable of presenting your imagined lore well, you maintain a love for it until the day you die or until you mature to a different taste and decide that your previously created universe does not hold up to your new expectations. You might be forced to "kill your darlings" to better your story for a particular editor or audience, but, no doubt, your darlings will remain important to you.
In every studio, there are employees who possess legitimate passion for what they are doing or are attempting to do. I would like to think (and hope) that there are passionate writers and artists among the EQN staff that will have their passion translated into the game. And, in general, the writers and artists of a staff are among its most passionate employees. Are there enough writers and artists on the EQN staff? Are they being paid enough? Are they being taken seriously? Do they know what they are doing? Those are the critical questions which will have a large impact on the Norrath of EQN.
yeah sounds like you dont know who runs the company or how the real business world works.
the writers are pretty low in the decision making on the name or even direction of a game title. I dont think writers have that much power even in a TV show let alone the lore in a video game
lol...too funny
Unfortunately, that often is the case.
But you dodged the point. The issue we were discussing was the world of Norrath as it applies to EQN and the desire of the developers to put their game in this world.
At no point did I mention mechanics. At no point did I mention business model. At no point did I mention design philosophies or even genre.
I mentioned only the universe, story, lore, and artwork - the things that actually define Norrath (and any other game world). These are the domains of the writer and the artist. These are the areas over which they are given sway. Whether or not EQN will fit into the world that they have put it on is up to the questions which I posed earlier. If there are enough writers and artists on the EQN staff, they will be able to convey their intentions into the game (through the programmers, of course). If they are being paid well enough, they can do so with the economic stability and motivation to devote their time to their work. If they are well-versed in the previous games, they can do so effectively - perhaps even improving upon the lore of the originals. And if they are being taken seriously, their decisions will properly influence the story, dialogue, artwork, and overall feel of the world.
No, these things do not determine the mechanics of the game. They rarely have a significant impact on the overall design philosophies or quality of a game. Why should they? They are rarely connected to gameplay mechanics in a meaningful way. They do, however, define a game as a legitimate successor to other games in its series.
you seem to assume that although they do not have to hold any allegiance to the game because of its title that they not only will hold allegiance to the lore but that they actually have sway in the matter in a video game. you are greatly mistaken
you seem to be suggesting that the developers hold not allegiance to the fan of the series but the story tellers do?
Hypotheticals don't equate to assumptions. All that is relevant, is if the lore is connected than the title is justified.
Well isn't that just dandy. Been awhile since I was reading the front page. Either way the tone seems to have changed.
and I would like to add, if Lore is so important why are there not more conversations about it? why do conversations about game always lean toward game play?
things to think about before bedtime.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Well isn't that just dandy. Been awhile since I was reading the front page. Either way the tone seems to have changed.
and I would like to add, if Lore is so important why are there not more conversations about it? why do conversations about game always lean toward game play?
things to think about before bedtime.
Well there has been some talk on the lore. That's the only reason I know they are connected. As for why there isn't more? Usual reason for withholding lore is it isn't complete and/or they don't want to throw in too many spoilers.
Well isn't that just dandy. Been awhile since I was reading the front page. Either way the tone seems to have changed.
and I would like to add, if Lore is so important why are there not more conversations about it? why do conversations about game always lean toward game play?
things to think about before bedtime.
Well there have been some talk on the lore. That's the only reason I know they are connected. As for why there isn't more? Usual reason for withholding lore is it isn't complete and/or they don't want to throw in too many spoilers.
pretty much universally on this board for all games when people talk about lore all they will say is lore, they never get into specifics. People WILL however get into specfics on game play. My theory on this is that there are more people like me then you might think. people who do not put lore as an important part of game play. But in all fairness that is a different conversation.
I have said what I came to say, you will sleep tonight thinking of my words in your dreams even if you dont want to admit it
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Well isn't that just dandy. Been awhile since I was reading the front page. Either way the tone seems to have changed.
and I would like to add, if Lore is so important why are there not more conversations about it? why do conversations about game always lean toward game play?
things to think about before bedtime.
MMOs are (usually) innately story-lite titles due to low expectations regarding the quality of story and lore in an MMO. This is, in part, because players create the story through their social interactions. In this instance, the only REQUIREMENT is that said MMO coincide with the universe of its previous titles (if there are any).
But if you compare that to a standard (high-quality) game from a more standard RPG genre, the story and writing of a game are among its aspects that are most prone to creating fan controversies. Let's take Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 2 as recent examples. Neither were terrible from a gameplay standpoint, though both had significant gameplay drawbacks compared to their predecessors. No, it was the poor writing, unimportance of story connections to their prequels, lack of player choices, and weak characterization of the characters in these that drew the most fan and customer flak.
If the importance of writers in the MMORPG genre has ever been downplayed (which it has been in all too many cases), it is because both players and developers have low expectations and twisted priorities. The "RPG" aspect of the MMORPG is often profoundly lacking.
Well isn't that just dandy. Been awhile since I was reading the front page. Either way the tone seems to have changed.
and I would like to add, if Lore is so important why are there not more conversations about it? why do conversations about game always lean toward game play?
things to think about before bedtime.
MMOs are (usually) innately story-lite titles due to low expectations regarding the quality of story and lore in an MMO. This is, in part, because players create the story through their social interactions. In this instance, the only REQUIREMENT is that said MMO coincide with the universe of its previous titles (if there are any).
But if you compare that to a standard (high-quality) game from a more standard RPG genre, the story and writing of a game are among its aspects that are most prone to creating fan controversies. Let's take Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 2 as recent examples. Neither were terrible from a gameplay standpoint, though both had significant gameplay drawbacks compared to their predecessors. No, it was the poor writing, unimportance of story connections to their prequels, lack of player choices, and weak characterization of the characters in these that drew the most fan and customer flak.
If the importance of writers in the MMORPG genre has ever been downplayed (which it has been in all too many cases), it is because both players and developers have low expectations and twisted priorities. The "RPG" aspect of the MMORPG is often profoundly lacking.
aside from the fact that single player games when it comes to story appears to be a completely different animal, not for any functional reason but more for traditional reason.
That aside, you seem to be saying that an MMO series does not have obligation to its fan but does have obligation to its lore.
that is your opinion, one that I disagree with not on legal grounds but on ethical grounds.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Well isn't that just dandy. Been awhile since I was reading the front page. Either way the tone seems to have changed.
and I would like to add, if Lore is so important why are there not more conversations about it? why do conversations about game always lean toward game play?
things to think about before bedtime.
Well there have been some talk on the lore. That's the only reason I know they are connected. As for why there isn't more? Usual reason for withholding lore is it isn't complete and/or they don't want to throw in too many spoilers.
pretty much universally on this board for all games when people talk about lore all they will say is lore, they never get into specifics. People WILL however get into specfics on game play. My theory on this is that there are more people like me then you might think. people who do not put lore as an important part of game play. But in all fairness that is a different conversation.
I have said what I came to say, you will sleep tonight thinking of my words in your dreams even if you dont want to admit it
I already admitted that you "may" have a point when I first addressed what you were saying. I'll go further, I agreed with the OP by saying ofcourse in my opening line. I also said the fans have no obligation. Now I will admit that, that wasn't as fair as I meant it to be. I will admit, as I think another poster said, that they sort of have an obligation. The line I am drawing now (in my own judgement of fairness) is the title Everquest is still justified so long as it is true to the lore. That does not mean that had to be the intention for creating another game.
I already admitted that you "may" have a point when I first addressed what you were saying. I'll go further, I agreed with the OP by saying ofcourse in my opening line. I also said the fans have no obligation. Now I will admit that, that wasn't as fair as I meant it to be. I will admit, as I think another poster said, that they sort of have an obligation. The line I am drawing now (in my own judgement of fairness) is the title Everquest is still justified so long as it is true to the lore. That does not mean that had to be the intention for creating another game.
I can concede to that point. I do, however, think that there is an ethical obligation toward some level of continuity in game play.
For example if they were to make the game play like Pirates of the Burning Sea but keep the Lore that would be rude.
Which is somewhat how I feel about ESO.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
aside from the fact that single player games when it comes to story appears to be a completely different animal, not for any functional reason but more for traditional reason.
That aside, you seem to be saying that an MMO series does not have obligation to its fan but does have obligation to its lore.
that is your opinion, one that I disagree with not on legal grounds but on ethical grounds.
Now, this may sound like semantics, but the difference I'm making here is an obligation vs. a requirement.
A new MMO (especially if it is a reboot or a spinoff) does NOT hold an obligation to be the same as its predecessors in terms of gameplay, philosophy, mechanics, or even genre (in the case of MMOs, this would mean that a new MMO may be an MMOFPRPG, like ESO, as opposed to a standard MMORPG).
Things get a little sketchier when we talk about number sequels (which would be the case if this were EQ3). That's a matter of fan interpretation, however, so let's not get into that.
I am referring to lore in its most basic sense - universe continuity. To remain faithful to this on a base level is not an obligation. It is a requirement in order to maintain the title of the preceeding games. One can make a notable exception when the sequel is set far off (in either direction) from the timeline of the predecessor or if the MMO takes place on a different continent in the same world. But the context must remain consistent to a basic degree in order for said sequel to maintain plausibility.
Past this, the only "lore obligation" is to not harshly contradict major lore points. Changes here are likely to be jarring.
Now, this may sound like a semantic distinction, but it is an important one. The obligation to appease fans through gameplay style is not necessary and may or may not be the best business decision. It is a standard and good strategy and fans will generally appreciate you for it. Basic lore - the universe- must be identifiable in order for a sequel, reboot, or spinoff, to actually be one in truth, as opposed to merely in name.
If EQN was set in Norrath but was a pirate-themed RPG with a vastly different setting and continuity, it would scarcely be identifiable as an EverQuest title and fans would be rightly livid.
I already admitted that you "may" have a point when I first addressed what you were saying. I'll go further, I agreed with the OP by saying ofcourse in my opening line. I also said the fans have no obligation. Now I will admit that, that wasn't as fair as I meant it to be. I will admit, as I think another poster said, that they sort of have an obligation. The line I am drawing now (in my own judgement of fairness) is the title Everquest is still justified so long as it is true to the lore. That does not mean that had to be the intention for creating another game.
I can concede to that point. I do, however, think that there is an ethical obligation toward some level of continuity in game play.
For example if they were to make the game play like Pirates of the Burning Sea but keep the Lore that would be rude.
Which is somewhat how I feel about ESO.
I agree in that if they made a sequel to Pirates of the Burning Sea and it had nothing to do with pirates that they wouldn't have met their obligation to the continuity in the series. In such an event though, it is hard to imagine them having continuity with the lore either. Atleast not in a significant way.
ESO is a good example. Many people hated it because the mechanics were too different despite Zenimax saying the whole time it won't be Skyrim Online and it will share alot in common with MMOs. That said, some people were satisfied that the lore was similar and raved about it.
I think how this relates to our original conversation is clear. It is reasonable that people may be disappointed that the game doesn't appear to be matching their expectations based upon the IP. That said so long as SOE makes the differences clear trying something new with connections to the lore is enough to justify it being called EverQuest. It's not like ESO where you may have had to buy it to find out if you didn't do your homework. EQN will launch f2p.
Remove the moniker EverQuest and you'd have no problem, people could take it at face value and judge it on it's on merits.
But once you decide to use the EQ handle, you create an expectation that it will remain somewhat true in spirit and not jump the shark in terms of game design.
You are correct, there is no obligation, dev's make the game they think will sell the best, even if said game is just another retread of the standard model that's been overused for so many years.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Of course they have no obligations towards players or even requirements In choosing not to though, they risk the chance of alienating a playerbase that could be a deciding factor on how popular said game can become. This is where marketing opens their bag of tricks.
Time will tell if EQ:N will be as they predicted or not. I'm sure they'll have a loyal following, we'll just have to see how large they can keep it.
Originally posted by SEANMCADaside from the fact that single player games when it comes to story appears to be a completely different animal, not for any functional reason but more for traditional reason.That aside, you seem to be saying that an MMO series does not have obligation to its fan but does have obligation to its lore.that is your opinion, one that I disagree with not on legal grounds but on ethical grounds.
Now, this may sound like semantics, but the difference I'm making here is an obligation vs. a requirement.A new MMO (especially if it is a reboot or a spinoff) does NOT hold an obligation to be the same as its predecessors in terms of gameplay, philosophy, mechanics, or even genre (in the case of MMOs, this would mean that a new MMO may be an MMOFPRPG, like ESO, as opposed to a standard MMORPG).Things get a little sketchier when we talk about number sequels (which would be the case if this were EQ3). That's a matter of fan interpretation, however, so let's not get into that.I am referring to lore in its most basic sense - universe continuity. To remain faithful to this on a base level is not an obligation. It is a requirement in order to maintain the title of the preceeding games. One can make a notable exception when the sequel is set far off (in either direction) from the timeline of the predecessor or if the MMO takes place on a different continent in the same world. But the context must remain consistent to a basic degree in order for said sequel to maintain plausibility.Past this, the only "lore obligation" is to not harshly contradict major lore points. Changes here are likely to be jarring. Now, this may sound like a semantic distinction, but it is an important one. The obligation to appease fans through gameplay style is not necessary and may or may not be the best business decision. It is a standard and good strategy and fans will generally appreciate you for it. Basic lore - the universe- must be identifiable in order for a sequel, reboot, or spinoff, to actually be one in truth, as opposed to merely in name. If EQN was set in Norrath but was a pirate-themed RPG with a vastly different setting and continuity, it would scarcely be identifiable as an EverQuest title and fans would be rightly livid.
I agree with this and think EQN fits that bill. I would liken it to the myriad of Star Wars books post Return of the Jedi. Each separate author may give a different feel to the read but the setting is familiar and those who know the Star Wars universe are aware of the "rules" surrounding it.
Regarding EQN specifically SoE may not care about its lore and are only using the name for marketing. It is possible as we couldn't really know unless they told us (which would be ill-advised), but not probable given what they have stated and shown us as of now. Currently on the EQN forums the lore section is one of three in "EverQuest Next Discussion", other other two being for current Round Table videos and an archive for previous Round Table subjects
I think it's very clear that EQ Next is nothing more then a NEW game "using" an old title to help market interest.. It has been said by EQ Next fans that this game is NOT EQ3 and EQ1 fans agree it is not EQ3.. There we all agree EQ Next really has nothing to do with the EQ franchise other then sharing a name and self imposed lore.. This would be similar to Chevrolet coming out with a new electric hybrid sports car that sits 4 (the back seats are very small) and naming it "Corvette".. When in fact it has no similarities other then 4 wheels and a radio.. lol The name EQ Next was chosen to help with marketing and hype.. PURE AND SIMPLE.. It is what it is..
Originally posted by Rydeson I think it's very clear that EQ Next is nothing more then a NEW game "using" an old title to help market interest.. It has been said by EQ Next fans that this game is NOT EQ3 and EQ1 fans agree it is not EQ3.. There we all agree EQ Next really has nothing to do with the EQ franchise other then sharing a name and self imposed lore.. This would be similar to Chevrolet coming out with a new electric hybrid sports car that sits 4 (the back seats are very small) and naming it "Corvette".. When in fact it has no similarities other then 4 wheels and a radio.. lol The name EQ Next was chosen to help with marketing and hype.. PURE AND SIMPLE.. It is what it is..
Not being EQ3 and having nothing to do with the franchise are two separate things. We don't need you to tell us what is going on as it has been stated over and over by the people making the game without opinionated spin. See above.
and I would like to add, if Lore is so important why are there not more conversations about it? why do conversations about game always lean toward game play?
Hello!
I need 2 hours of my life back if speaking to the lead lore person at SOELive for 2 hours wasn't about lore.
And no, I am not going to tell you what we spoke about, that is just for me as reward for making an effort to attend. I will say though that these guys know the lore as if they live it.
Comments
In all fairness I think you both may have a point. Only one which I can confirm. That is there will be a connection with the lore. Other than that, I cannot make a judgment about which would be more accurate. I cannot say but it wouldn't surprise me if SOE had motives other than lore for naming EQN. That's not to assume the worst as Sean has done, it could be they want to remind people that they have launched games that people liked in the past. However I don't think tricking EQ and EQII players serves their interest and they don't appear to be doing that at the moment. They have been clear it will be very different.
the chances are extreemly high that the choice to make any game basically a new version of an older game is for marketing.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Every writer has a hard on for their lore. I say that as a writer. Your works are your children and, regardless of whether or not you are capable of presenting your imagined lore well, you maintain a love for it until the day you die or until you mature to a different taste and decide that your previously created universe does not hold up to your new expectations. You might be forced to "kill your darlings" to better your story for a particular editor or audience, but, no doubt, your darlings will remain important to you.
In every studio, there are employees who possess legitimate passion for what they are doing or are attempting to do. I would like to think (and hope) that there are passionate writers and artists among the EQN staff that will have their passion translated into the game. And, in general, the writers and artists of a staff are among its most passionate employees. Are there enough writers and artists on the EQN staff? Are they being paid enough? Are they being taken seriously? Do they know what they are doing? Those are the critical questions which will have a large impact on the Norrath of EQN.
yeah sounds like you dont know who runs the company or how the real business world works.
the writers are pretty low in the decision making on the name or even direction of a game title. I dont think writers have that much power even in a TV show let alone the lore in a video game
lol...too funny
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Unfortunately, that often is the case.
But you dodged the point. The issue we were discussing was the world of Norrath as it applies to EQN and the desire of the developers to put their game in this world.
At no point did I mention mechanics. At no point did I mention business model. At no point did I mention design philosophies or even genre.
I mentioned only the universe, story, lore, and artwork - the things that actually define Norrath (and any other game world). These are the domains of the writer and the artist. These are the areas over which they are given sway. Whether or not EQN will fit into the world that they have put it on is up to the questions which I posed earlier. If there are enough writers and artists on the EQN staff, they will be able to convey their intentions into the game (through the programmers, of course). If they are being paid well enough, they can do so with the economic stability and motivation to devote their time to their work. If they are well-versed in the previous games, they can do so effectively - perhaps even improving upon the lore of the originals. And if they are being taken seriously, their decisions will properly influence the story, dialogue, artwork, and overall feel of the world.
No, these things do not determine the mechanics of the game. They rarely have a significant impact on the overall design philosophies or quality of a game. Why should they? They are rarely connected to gameplay mechanics in a meaningful way. They do, however, define a game as a legitimate successor to other games in its series.
you seem to assume that although they do not have to hold any allegiance to the game because of its title that they not only will hold allegiance to the lore but that they actually have sway in the matter in a video game. you are greatly mistaken
you seem to be suggesting that the developers hold not allegiance to the fan of the series but the story tellers do?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Hypotheticals don't equate to assumptions. All that is relevant, is if the lore is connected than the title is justified.
or maybe to say it shorter. What you are saying is:
MMO series have no obligation towards fans of previous titles but the reason they keep the name is because the writers have an obligation to the lore and have the polictical muscle to see it thru
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Well isn't that just dandy. Been awhile since I was reading the front page. Either way the tone seems to have changed.
EDIT Good, I misread that. Thought he may have said it somewhere in the front page since you linked it lol
and I would like to add, if Lore is so important why are there not more conversations about it? why do conversations about game always lean toward game play?
things to think about before bedtime.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Well there has been some talk on the lore. That's the only reason I know they are connected. As for why there isn't more? Usual reason for withholding lore is it isn't complete and/or they don't want to throw in too many spoilers.
pretty much universally on this board for all games when people talk about lore all they will say is lore, they never get into specifics. People WILL however get into specfics on game play. My theory on this is that there are more people like me then you might think. people who do not put lore as an important part of game play. But in all fairness that is a different conversation.
I have said what I came to say, you will sleep tonight thinking of my words in your dreams even if you dont want to admit it
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
MMOs are (usually) innately story-lite titles due to low expectations regarding the quality of story and lore in an MMO. This is, in part, because players create the story through their social interactions. In this instance, the only REQUIREMENT is that said MMO coincide with the universe of its previous titles (if there are any).
But if you compare that to a standard (high-quality) game from a more standard RPG genre, the story and writing of a game are among its aspects that are most prone to creating fan controversies. Let's take Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 2 as recent examples. Neither were terrible from a gameplay standpoint, though both had significant gameplay drawbacks compared to their predecessors. No, it was the poor writing, unimportance of story connections to their prequels, lack of player choices, and weak characterization of the characters in these that drew the most fan and customer flak.
If the importance of writers in the MMORPG genre has ever been downplayed (which it has been in all too many cases), it is because both players and developers have low expectations and twisted priorities. The "RPG" aspect of the MMORPG is often profoundly lacking.
aside from the fact that single player games when it comes to story appears to be a completely different animal, not for any functional reason but more for traditional reason.
That aside, you seem to be saying that an MMO series does not have obligation to its fan but does have obligation to its lore.
that is your opinion, one that I disagree with not on legal grounds but on ethical grounds.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I already admitted that you "may" have a point when I first addressed what you were saying. I'll go further, I agreed with the OP by saying ofcourse in my opening line. I also said the fans have no obligation. Now I will admit that, that wasn't as fair as I meant it to be. I will admit, as I think another poster said, that they sort of have an obligation. The line I am drawing now (in my own judgement of fairness) is the title Everquest is still justified so long as it is true to the lore. That does not mean that had to be the intention for creating another game.
I can concede to that point. I do, however, think that there is an ethical obligation toward some level of continuity in game play.
For example if they were to make the game play like Pirates of the Burning Sea but keep the Lore that would be rude.
Which is somewhat how I feel about ESO.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Now, this may sound like semantics, but the difference I'm making here is an obligation vs. a requirement.
A new MMO (especially if it is a reboot or a spinoff) does NOT hold an obligation to be the same as its predecessors in terms of gameplay, philosophy, mechanics, or even genre (in the case of MMOs, this would mean that a new MMO may be an MMOFPRPG, like ESO, as opposed to a standard MMORPG).
Things get a little sketchier when we talk about number sequels (which would be the case if this were EQ3). That's a matter of fan interpretation, however, so let's not get into that.
I am referring to lore in its most basic sense - universe continuity. To remain faithful to this on a base level is not an obligation. It is a requirement in order to maintain the title of the preceeding games. One can make a notable exception when the sequel is set far off (in either direction) from the timeline of the predecessor or if the MMO takes place on a different continent in the same world. But the context must remain consistent to a basic degree in order for said sequel to maintain plausibility.
Past this, the only "lore obligation" is to not harshly contradict major lore points. Changes here are likely to be jarring.
Now, this may sound like a semantic distinction, but it is an important one. The obligation to appease fans through gameplay style is not necessary and may or may not be the best business decision. It is a standard and good strategy and fans will generally appreciate you for it. Basic lore - the universe- must be identifiable in order for a sequel, reboot, or spinoff, to actually be one in truth, as opposed to merely in name.
If EQN was set in Norrath but was a pirate-themed RPG with a vastly different setting and continuity, it would scarcely be identifiable as an EverQuest title and fans would be rightly livid.
I agree in that if they made a sequel to Pirates of the Burning Sea and it had nothing to do with pirates that they wouldn't have met their obligation to the continuity in the series. In such an event though, it is hard to imagine them having continuity with the lore either. Atleast not in a significant way.
ESO is a good example. Many people hated it because the mechanics were too different despite Zenimax saying the whole time it won't be Skyrim Online and it will share alot in common with MMOs. That said, some people were satisfied that the lore was similar and raved about it.
I think how this relates to our original conversation is clear. It is reasonable that people may be disappointed that the game doesn't appear to be matching their expectations based upon the IP. That said so long as SOE makes the differences clear trying something new with connections to the lore is enough to justify it being called EverQuest. It's not like ESO where you may have had to buy it to find out if you didn't do your homework. EQN will launch f2p.
Remove the moniker EverQuest and you'd have no problem, people could take it at face value and judge it on it's on merits.
But once you decide to use the EQ handle, you create an expectation that it will remain somewhat true in spirit and not jump the shark in terms of game design.
You are correct, there is no obligation, dev's make the game they think will sell the best, even if said game is just another retread of the standard model that's been overused for so many years.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Of course they have no obligations towards players or even requirements In choosing not to though, they risk the chance of alienating a playerbase that could be a deciding factor on how popular said game can become. This is where marketing opens their bag of tricks.
Time will tell if EQ:N will be as they predicted or not. I'm sure they'll have a loyal following, we'll just have to see how large they can keep it.
I agree with this and think EQN fits that bill. I would liken it to the myriad of Star Wars books post Return of the Jedi. Each separate author may give a different feel to the read but the setting is familiar and those who know the Star Wars universe are aware of the "rules" surrounding it.
Regarding EQN specifically SoE may not care about its lore and are only using the name for marketing. It is possible as we couldn't really know unless they told us (which would be ill-advised), but not probable given what they have stated and shown us as of now. Currently on the EQN forums the lore section is one of three in "EverQuest Next Discussion", other other two being for current Round Table videos and an archive for previous Round Table subjects
https://forums.station.sony.com/everquestnext/index.php
Speaking of Round Table discussions, here are eight having to do with the lore and setting of EQN's Norrath:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4NTOCABBLY&list=UU7tcHJ4Xq0Glc8vVhOrXt4g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ukfmj2b-cM&list=UU7tcHJ4Xq0Glc8vVhOrXt4g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AyFEwlERkc&list=UU7tcHJ4Xq0Glc8vVhOrXt4g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FStzkn4Cf0E&list=UU7tcHJ4Xq0Glc8vVhOrXt4g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XESQl13xmek&list=UU7tcHJ4Xq0Glc8vVhOrXt4g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAv2ZKyfVsM&list=UU7tcHJ4Xq0Glc8vVhOrXt4g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUstwx6iizc&list=UU7tcHJ4Xq0Glc8vVhOrXt4g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHxkrYw33qI&list=UU7tcHJ4Xq0Glc8vVhOrXt4g
Then there are the ebooks that they have released, 10 so far:
https://www.everquestnext.com/media?category=ebook
Edit: Lore panels from Live 2013
Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im7RB67_dm8
Part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDGokB01xSs
Not being EQ3 and having nothing to do with the franchise are two separate things. We don't need you to tell us what is going on as it has been stated over and over by the people making the game without opinionated spin. See above.
Edit: Okay above, above.
Hello!
I need 2 hours of my life back if speaking to the lead lore person at SOELive for 2 hours wasn't about lore.
And no, I am not going to tell you what we spoke about, that is just for me as reward for making an effort to attend. I will say though that these guys know the lore as if they live it.